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Balthazar in PoF

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  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Ototo.3214 said:
    I'm not entirely convinced we fully know what was going on with Balth tbh. I didn't play GW1 but even to me the way he acted seemed strange. But from him using Lyssa's mirror, to him specifically not cursing Lyssa in the Draconis Mons final instance (iirc), and just...the way Kormir words a certain sentence in PoF (was something along the lines of " eventually Lyssa also agreed")...it makes me put on my tin foil hat and think that there is some sort of conspiracy going on. Idk what, but I'm convinced there's something.
    I could just be off my rocker though. Or missing something.

    It's not a tinfoil hat at all.... the line you are thinking of is from Facing the Truth:
    Kormir: The rest of the Six—Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa—reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with.

    At the climax of Path of Fire "To Kill a God":
    Balthazar: No!
    Balthazar: I am a god!
    Balthazar: Curse you, Dwayna!
    Balthazar: Melandru!
    Balthazar: Betraying one of your own!
    Balthazar: Grenth!
    Balthazar: Kormir!
    Balthazar: May the fires...
    Balthazar: ...take...
    Balthazar: ...you...
    Balthazar: ...all!

    The fact that Balthazaar uses Lyssa's Mirror to disguise himself as Lazarus in S3 eps 4 and 5 means there is a pretty significant piece of this story remaining.
    Not a conspiracy theory at all. There is clearly an actual conspiracy between Balthazaar and Lyssa.
    But I think it's important to remember that Lyssa is actually two beings.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    Technically it is a conspiracy theory, since we don't know why Balthazar doesn't mention Lyssa. Kormir's wording gives an implication, but ultimately means nothing. And Balthazar is outright stated to have raided the reliquaries in Orr visibly as Balthazar while hiding the aspect of Lazarus to prevent people from believing that Lazarus is fake (in other words, he must have went to Siren's Landing before assuming the role of Lazarus, so before he had obtained the mirror).

    It remains a theory - one that people like to bandwagon off of, and one of the few bandwagon theories that are actually legitamately hinted towards - and it is a conspiracy. So it's a conspiracy theory through and through.

    Though the tinfoil had not be needed for this one like "Anise is Livia" or "Jennah is Lyssa" ones.

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  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    I think it's also important to note that isn't the only time Lyssa is mentioned either, she also comes up in Kormir's personal journal when discussing the departure of the Gods. There it's said that Lyssa mocked Kormir for staying behind, which simply seems odd to me. While it might be the product of time, or just a different aspect of her taking over, Lyssa was the most interactive of the gods with humanity. It's said that when she's recalled from Wren her tears fall like rain across Orr, why would she, of all the gods, be the one to urge Kormir to leave? It just doesn't add up.

    The only thing that makes sense to me is that Lyssa wanted Kormir to go so she could not interfere with Balthazar.

  • I wonder why did Balthazar not turned off the sword? We know he could ignite it. Is it not logical that he could turn it off why did he let it on and get killed by the commander with it?

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe, maybe not. After all, it's a lot easier to start a big fire than it is to put one out.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Yeah if its an freaking forest fire. Try to make an camp fire it takes longer to make it then to put it out.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    True, but a lot of that is down to precautions (and what fire-starting tools you have available)... and, if I had to guess, Balthazar's power seems more oriented towards fueling fires than extinguishing them.

    Not that it isn't still a flimsy argument to make. The whole 'the Big Bad is weak to their own power!' thing always gets under my skin. But, whatever the justification, the plain fact that Balthazar didn't extinguish the blade, when doing so may have saved his life, strongly indicates that he didn't have an off button ready.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I think it's also important to note that isn't the only time Lyssa is mentioned either, she also comes up in Kormir's personal journal when discussing the departure of the Gods. There it's said that Lyssa mocked Kormir for staying behind, which simply seems odd to me. While it might be the product of time, or just a different aspect of her taking over, Lyssa was the most interactive of the gods with humanity. It's said that when she's recalled from Wren her tears fall like rain across Orr, why would she, of all the gods, be the one to urge Kormir to leave? It just doesn't add up.

    The only thing that makes sense to me is that Lyssa wanted Kormir to go so she could not interfere with Balthazar.

    I want to tinfoil hat this: Our sources for Lyssa being the deceptive one is implications coming from Kormir specifically. Yes, Balthazar doesn't mention Lyssa, but he was literally breaking apart and dying. For all we know, the reason he didn't curse Lyssa is because he had feelings for her and she didn't actually do anything damning, or maybe they just had a closer friendship than between Balthazar and the other gods.

    My point being: why does everyone jump to suspecting Lyssa, and not Kormir?

    It was Kormir who told us Balthazar hid from the other gods using Lyssa's Mirror, but based on how he went to Siren's Landing, and his reasons for doing so, he had spent some time on Tyria without said mirror to hide himself - and they could have easily just checked his prison to see if he was still there. It seems odd a goddess of knowledge wouldn't know these things.

    It was Kormir who says "even Lyssa", as if to call her out while not calling her out, a typical kitten move in day to day discussions people use to call folks out while being subtle about it.

    It was Kormir who wrote in her journal that Lyssa mocked her for something that was very un-Lyssa-like.

    And it is Kormir who is prophecized to destroy the other gods and end the world.

    What if Lyssa is innocent, Balthazar's lack of calling her out is a red herring, and Kormir's words about Lyssa a method to make players/the Commander suspect Lyssa and willing to hunt her down once Lyssa shows imperfect colors.

    There's a tinfoil hat for ya!

    EDIT: And I just realized that would be an interesting way to fix the retcons to Balthazar's personality. His spoiled manchild reaction were created by projections that Kormir showed us after all. His actions during Season 3 and PoF were far more understandable due to being post-imprisonment and stripping, compared to his tantrums in the projections.

    Hell, every single word Kormir said could turn out to be a lie, a fabrication that's part of Kormir's plot. Not to say the other gods didn't do him in, but that the reasons weren't for what Kormir said.

    This could even, then, play into why Balthazar doesn't mention Lyssa. Lyssa is the goddess of illusions. She'd know trickery. If Kormir were to have tricked the other gods into turning on Balthazar, Lyssa is the one who would see through such actions best (followed by Grenth, who's known for teachings that pierce veils of illusions and lies, as the god who seemingly took over the roles of truth and knowledge while Abaddon was imprisoned).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I think it's also important to note that isn't the only time Lyssa is mentioned either, she also comes up in Kormir's personal journal when discussing the departure of the Gods. There it's said that Lyssa mocked Kormir for staying behind, which simply seems odd to me. While it might be the product of time, or just a different aspect of her taking over, Lyssa was the most interactive of the gods with humanity. It's said that when she's recalled from Wren her tears fall like rain across Orr, why would she, of all the gods, be the one to urge Kormir to leave? It just doesn't add up.

    The only thing that makes sense to me is that Lyssa wanted Kormir to go so she could not interfere with Balthazar.

    I want to tinfoil hat this: Our sources for Lyssa being the deceptive one is implications coming from Kormir specifically. Yes, Balthazar doesn't mention Lyssa, but he was literally breaking apart and dying. For all we know, the reason he didn't curse Lyssa is because he had feelings for her and she didn't actually do anything damning, or maybe they just had a closer friendship than between Balthazar and the other gods.

    My point being: why does everyone jump to suspecting Lyssa, and not Kormir?

    It was Kormir who told us Balthazar hid from the other gods using Lyssa's Mirror, but based on how he went to Siren's Landing, and his reasons for doing so, he had spent some time on Tyria without said mirror to hide himself - and they could have easily just checked his prison to see if he was still there. It seems odd a goddess of knowledge wouldn't know these things.

    It was Kormir who says "even Lyssa", as if to call her out while not calling her out, a typical kitten move in day to day discussions people use to call folks out while being subtle about it.

    It was Kormir who wrote in her journal that Lyssa mocked her for something that was very un-Lyssa-like.

    And it is Kormir who is prophecized to destroy the other gods and end the world.

    What if Lyssa is innocent, Balthazar's lack of calling her out is a red herring, and Kormir's words about Lyssa a method to make players/the Commander suspect Lyssa and willing to hunt her down once Lyssa shows imperfect colors.

    There's a tinfoil hat for ya!

    EDIT: And I just realized that would be an interesting way to fix the retcons to Balthazar's personality. His spoiled manchild reaction were created by projections that Kormir showed us after all. His actions during Season 3 and PoF were far more understandable due to being post-imprisonment and stripping, compared to his tantrums in the projections.

    Hell, every single word Kormir said could turn out to be a lie, a fabrication that's part of Kormir's plot. Not to say the other gods didn't do him in, but that the reasons weren't for what Kormir said.

    This could even, then, play into why Balthazar doesn't mention Lyssa. Lyssa is the goddess of illusions. She'd know trickery. If Kormir were to have tricked the other gods into turning on Balthazar, Lyssa is the one who would see through such actions best (followed by Grenth, who's known for teachings that pierce veils of illusions and lies, as the god who seemingly took over the roles of truth and knowledge while Abaddon was imprisoned).

    That is certainly a nice hat… I will keep it with the other ones that will be filled with liquor and chucked down during a Guidl-Raid if they ever come true :D

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    To build on this, our information that the Six left to find a new world came from Kormir as well, both being told, and reading in the book. What if this is her way of hiding the fact that she has already done away with the other six, except perhaps Lyssa who has been able to hide from Kormir this whole time. This would seem to leave the uncharacteristic leaving of the souls of their followers to be play toys for demons more acceptable.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    How about the Guild Wars humans are not further trashed by killing all their Gods and having the most recent one be evil?

  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    Amazing tin foil hats. Very good point at Kormir is our only source for a lot of 'information.'
    Kormir is trying to take over the world.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Oh wow. I have nevert thought about this, but the moment you mentioned what is prophecized for Kormir it started to make sense. It isn't canon, but this could potentially wash away all the hate towards Balthazar's development.

    What if he actually went mad because of Kormir's action? Completely blinded by rage, simply because he was lied to. I'll have to replay the PoF with that feeling. Kormir never felt pure to me. Afterall, Abaddon got his powers from Arachnia, certainly an evil deity. Kormir still holds this power in herself.

    A sidenote, the spiders in Deldrimor Fractal could indicate Arachnia and the race of spider-gods. Sadly, there is really no way we could ever explore this with so much focus on the Elder Dragons plot.

  • @Narcemus.1348 said:
    To build on this, our information that the Six left to find a new world came from Kormir as well, both being told, and reading in the book. What if this is her way of hiding the fact that she has already done away with the other six, except perhaps Lyssa who has been able to hide from Kormir this whole time. This would seem to leave the uncharacteristic leaving of the souls of their followers to be play toys for demons more acceptable.

    It wouldn't feel right to me for the other gods to already be dead. Especially with what happens when a god dies. There would have been one hell of an aftershock if four or five gods had perished.

    That said, Kormir isn't the only source for the Six Gods having left. Humans had long tried to contact them without success as they realized they're no longer in their realms (Cathedral of Silence PS), we've been told such by the devs that they left the world too (though this could be a retcon since then, or just them hiding the truth), and the servants of Grenth seem fully convinced that he departed naturally and peacefully.

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    What if he actually went mad because of Kormir's action? Completely blinded by rage, simply because he was lied to. I'll have to replay the PoF with that feeling. Kormir never felt pure to me. Afterall, Abaddon got his powers from Arachnia, certainly an evil deity. Kormir still holds this power in herself.

    A sidenote, the spiders in Deldrimor Fractal could indicate Arachnia and the race of spider-gods. Sadly, there is really no way we could ever explore this with so much focus on the Elder Dragons plot.

    Arachnia isn't canon. All info of her comes from the gw.dat which has a ton of scrapped lore. Similarly, it was never even stated that Arachnia is Abaddon's predecessor - that was pure player speculation based solely on the mention of Arachnia in the gw.dat.

    I also don't think the spiders hold any relation. They're just spiders, one being possessed momentarily by The Voice. The Voice, whatever it is, seems to be demonic in nature, which goes in hand with the dwarves having imprisoned demons in summoning stones and other prisons throughout their past.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    To build on this, our information that the Six left to find a new world came from Kormir as well, both being told, and reading in the book. What if this is her way of hiding the fact that she has already done away with the other six, except perhaps Lyssa who has been able to hide from Kormir this whole time. This would seem to leave the uncharacteristic leaving of the souls of their followers to be play toys for demons more acceptable.

    It wouldn't feel right to me for the other gods to already be dead. Especially with what happens when a god dies. There would have been one hell of an aftershock if four or five gods had perished.

    That said, Kormir isn't the only source for the Six Gods having left. Humans had long tried to contact them without success as they realized they're no longer in their realms (Cathedral of Silence PS), we've been told such by the devs that they left the world too (though this could be a retcon since then, or just them hiding the truth), and the servants of Grenth seem fully convinced that he departed naturally and peacefully.

    I guess my meaning could be misconstrued. I did not mean that they are all dead, but perhaps she convinced them individually to leave their realms and "balthazar'd" them. It would seem that having the Goddess of Truth on their side helped them find a way to remove Balthazar's divinity, but since the method is unknown, I'll leave it at that. And yes, we know that the Gods left their realms, but we got the reasoning (going to find a new, safe world for their followers) from a book written by a man who got a vision from Kormir, and from Kormir herself. I'll be honest, I was only attempting to add to tinfoil, I do not personally believe this.

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