How the sand savant change is going to play out

Necromancer

Scourge: For a long time, Scourge has been a strong elite specialization on the basis of its area coverage. With some of these changes we're looking to re-focus their gameplay around their unique elite spec mechanic, shades. These changes also open up space for improvements to the Scourge's kit in the future as the conversation has been dominated by Scourge's coverage.Scourge: Shade abilities only affect the area around you while you do not have a shade active in the world. This creates a choice of whether to be the focal point for your shade abilities by not summoning a shade or to place a shade at a distance and focus on your shade's positioning relying on distance as your safety. It also offers more distinct styles of gameplay where you may want to close with enemies and avoid having to place shades while being exposed in melee or placing a shade farther away to gain ranged offensive options at the risk of not having shade defensive benefits at your location (unless you place another shade beside you). To address the loss of some of the target cap, the number of targets affected by shade abilities will be increased from 3 to 5.Manifest Sand Shade: The duration of sand shades in WvW & PvP has been increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.Sand Savant: Increase the number of targets sand shade affect from 2 to 5, so that when traited you either affect up to 10 targets around you or have a single shade which affects up to 10 targets rather than the current incarnation where you've got a shade that affects 5 targets and you affect 5 targets near you.Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

The standard shade bomb combo currently is f1, f2-f5. f1 has a .5s cast time while each of the others have a .5s delay, so pressing them one after the other lets the bomb all hit at the same time in the same place.

The new shade bomb combo will be f3, f1, f2/4/5. This allows you to place barrier on 10 allies around you, then deals all of the damage to targets at the shade location. Instead of making scourges decide between 10 target damage or 10 target support, this patch is just giving them both. You won't even miss the condi cleanse from f2 because applying barrier removes a condition, so with 2 scourges you have the exact same amount of condition clearing, 50% more barrier output, twice as much might application, and 50% more damage per bomb- even after the nerf to f5 and even though you aren't using f3 offensively any longer.

So glass scourge bomb is going from:

(Range-current)1.5-2k per f1-4, 10k f5, per 5 targets= 16-20k each, 80-100k total5x 1 corrupt= 5 corrupts5x 1s fear5x 2.5k barrier= 12.5k barrier5x 2 condi cleanse= 10 cleanses5x 2 might= 10 might

(Melee-current, if shade+you hit 10 allies AND 10 enemies, perfectly played scenario)1.5-2k per f1-4, 10k f5, per 10 target= 16-20k each, 160-200k total10x 1 corrupt= 10 corrupts10x 1s fear10x 2.5k barrier= 25k barrier10x 2 condi clear= 20 cleanses10x 2 might= 20 might

To:

(Range-new)1.5-2k per f1+f2+f4, 8k f5, per 10 targets= 12.5-14k each, 125k-140k total (with conditions ~ 50% more damage)10x 1 corrupt= 10 corrupts (200% current)10x 1s fear (200% current)10x 1.7k barrier= 17k barrier (36% more barrier)10x 1 condition clear=10 condition clear (100% current)10x 2 might=20 might (200% current)

OR

(Melee-new, now you just need 10 allies+enemies in 300 range making it easier to land)1.5-2k per f1-4, 8k f5, per 10 targets= 14-16k each, 140-160k total (80% current)10x 1 corrupt= 10 corrupts (100% current)10x 1s fear (100% current)10x 1.7k barrier= 17.5k barrier (70% of current)10x 2 condi clear= 20 cleanses (100% current)10x 2 might= 20 might (100% current)

.....Who on earth thought that was what the players wanted when we asked for sand savant nerfs? Sand savant does too much because it is 10 target. The solution to that is not 'make it vastly easier to land 10 target hits'.

Sure, the melee bomb from scourge is now 20-30% less effective than it was in a perfect scenario, but you made it significantly easier to do so the current melee shade bomb and new melee shade bomb will have almost the exact same output. At the tradeoff of making it 50% more effective at range? Was this the intent or...?

If I understand this correctly....the change to Sand Savant means Scourge in melee range basically wont have to place a shade down before using shade skills to get the full effect. Now what if you place it at range, what happens to barrier application and associated traits? Also how does the target cap differentiate between allies and enemies?

I think it will be awkward to use now because once you place it you HAVE to use another to reposition. You cannot unsummon a shade. Once you use them all it's straight melee shading.We will see but yeah this change looks pretty skill upending.

Will have to see how it looks when released but the change to Sand savant looks terrible the more I think about it. If I cannot even get barrier if I place the shade at range, than what is even the point? This would only make Scourge useful in melee range, and even more reliant on being in a group with a Firebrand, since Necromancers have no defensive abilities or movement skills to compete with other classes.

@X T D.6458 said:Will have to see how it looks when released but the change to Sand savant looks terrible the more I think about it. If I cannot even get barrier if I place the shade at range, than what is even the point? This would only make Scourge useful in melee range, and even more reliant on being in a group with a Firebrand, since Necromancers have no defensive abilities or movement skills to compete with other classes.

just cast f3 before you press f1, now it applies barrier to 10 allies in melee range before dealing damage to 10 enemies at 900 range. That's the only playstyle change for a massive increase in both support and damage if they go live with this.

@Justine.6351 said:I think it will be awkward to use now because once you place it you HAVE to use another to reposition. You cannot unsummon a shade. Once you use them all it's straight melee shading.We will see but yeah this change looks pretty skill upending.

the only effective change you'll see is not being able to barrier with f3 on melee targets while you have a shade active. Instead, you use sand flare to barrier for the second push with wells. then on the third push your shade has expired so you can f3, f1, f2/4/5 for another big bomb. Every push gets barrier, every push deals great damage, shade bombs become even stronger while well bombs remain just as effective. If your group has good coordination and runs 2 scourges per party, which they will with this patch, 1 scourge shade bombs while 1 uses wells, swap roles for each push.

You should probably go post that in the devthread Risen, if you haven't already.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:You should probably go post that in the devthread Risen, if you haven't already.

I have, i wanted to put this somewhere where it wouldn't get lost in the mix. Hopefully they see this and check the numbers before they release a patch that will have the exact opposite effect of what they're shooting for =/

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@X T D.6458 said:Will have to see how it looks when released but the change to Sand savant looks terrible the more I think about it. If I cannot even get barrier if I place the shade at range, than what is even the point? This would only make Scourge useful in melee range, and even more reliant on being in a group with a Firebrand, since Necromancers have no defensive abilities or movement skills to compete with other classes.

That is not the only change, it also affects traits related to shades like cleanses on barrier application. Not everyone runs in a group, this will severely hurt players not in a squad and make Scourges even more reliant on firebrands for support.

@X T D.6458 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@X T D.6458 said:Will have to see how it looks when released but the change to Sand savant looks terrible the more I think about it. If I cannot even get barrier if I place the shade at range, than what is even the point? This would only make Scourge useful in melee range, and even more reliant on being in a group with a Firebrand, since Necromancers have no defensive abilities or movement skills to compete with other classes.

Against a ranged opponent you use the shade, against melee you hold it for when they get close. That's the only game style change for pvp. And you have less barrier for yourself without a healing power amulet, which is going to delete scourge from pvp since they have no escape mechanics. But this is a massive buff for wvw, the mode they're supposed to be tuning it down for.

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

Necromancer

Scourge: For a long time, Scourge has been a strong elite specialization on the basis of its area coverage. With some of these changes we're looking to re-focus their gameplay around their unique elite spec mechanic, shades. These changes also open up space for improvements to the Scourge's kit in the future as the conversation has been dominated by Scourge's coverage.Scourge: Shade abilities only affect the area around you while you do not have a shade active in the world. This creates a choice of whether to be the focal point for your shade abilities by not summoning a shade or to place a shade at a distance and focus on your shade's positioning relying on distance as your safety. It also offers more distinct styles of gameplay where you may want to close with enemies and avoid having to place shades while being exposed in melee or placing a shade farther away to gain ranged offensive options at the risk of not having shade defensive benefits at your location (unless you place another shade beside you). To address the loss of some of the target cap, the number of targets affected by shade abilities will be increased from 3 to 5.Manifest Sand Shade: The duration of sand shades in WvW & PvP has been increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.Sand Savant: Increase the number of targets sand shade affect from 2 to 5, so that when traited you either affect up to 10 targets around you or have a single shade which affects up to 10 targets rather than the current incarnation where you've got a shade that affects 5 targets and you affect 5 targets near you.Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

Sand savant doesn't do too much; Guardians as a whole do too much. That ridiculous skill the firebrands have in converting 5 conditions to 5 boons on 5 players on a low cool down is still infinitely more game changing than any of these changes to sand savant.

In theory, yes a scourge could do what is proposed, but also in theory a ranger could kill everyone on the map simply by out-ranging them. You and I both know that is so far from the case.

Here is what would happen if what you're proposing actually occurs in a battle: Commander "ok guys, F3 on 3 to barrier us up, then charge in and drop the shades to hit your 10 targets. This sand savant change is so OP, we'll destroy the enemy with this tactic"

If it was myself as the commander (and likely any other commander in the game): "wait for it, oh they barrier'd up, back up and draw out the bomb 'they drop the bomb and completely miss', ok charge in drop shades and mash buttons" Your group is essentially deleted in less than 7 seconds.

Anet did exactly what players wanted; the complaint, shades cover the battlefield and cover too much area. So what did they do? They cut the area coverage in half. The players got exactly what they wanted. The simple solution to not get hit by the 10 target shade bomb (which does pathetic damage anyway on it's own, is to not stand in the shade bomb. There is not half as much area damage being dealt.

Keep the AoE small, have it affect fewer players but have the effects be more potent. Make scourges work for their damage but reward them for doing it well. My thoughts.If you're going to introduce a mechanic where the effect of shade skills won't work in a radius around the necromancer whilst the shade is active, the new shades had better have an off switch. Necromancers being focused need more ohfuck buttons, not less.

~ Kovu

Scourges aren't like mesmers, zergs don't just carry one around.

@Kovu.7560 said:

If you're going to introduce a mechanic where the effect of shade skills won't work in a radius around the necromancer whilst the shade is active, the new shades had better have an off switch. Necromancers being focused need more oh**** buttons, not less.

~ Kovu

The longer duration is going to hurt when you are not able to pop your shade skills if you used the last Manifest at range....

@Justine.6351 said:I think it will be awkward to use now because once you place it you HAVE to use another to reposition. You cannot unsummon a shade. Once you use them all it's straight melee shading.We will see but yeah this change looks pretty skill upending.

you can wait 15 sec for it to expire which isn't too long most times, but yeah its going to be clunkyville.

@X T D.6458 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

If you're going to introduce a mechanic where the effect of shade skills won't work in a radius around the necromancer whilst the shade is active,

the new shades had better have an off switch

. Necromancers being focused need

more

oh**** buttons, not less.

~ Kovu

Yeah, that too.

@Stand The Wall.6987 15 seconds is an eternity when you're being pressured in a zerg fight.

~ Kovu

@Kovu.7560 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

If you're going to introduce a mechanic where the effect of shade skills won't work in a radius around the necromancer whilst the shade is active,

the new shades had better have an off switch

. Necromancers being focused need

more

oh**** buttons, not less.

~ Kovu

I don't think zerg fights are going to last long enough for it to be a problem, with 20 scourges you can flatten a map queue. Especially if harbingers shroud works with the new mechanic so you can precast it and still land one at range lmao

@Kovu.7560 said:15 seconds is an eternity when you're being pressured in a zerg fight.

not when everyone is pirateshipping which will probably be more often.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Especially if harbingers shroud works with the new mechanic so you can precast it and still land one at range lmao

it doesn't work that way now so I doubt they will change it.

@Justine.6351 said:I think it will be awkward to use now because once you place it you HAVE to use another to reposition. You cannot unsummon a shade. Once you use them all it's straight melee shading.

I still think having the increased cooldown on the trait should be removed to help normalize this, that or have a way to unsummon a shade.

@Vegeta.2563 said:

@Justine.6351 said:I think it will be awkward to use now because once you place it you HAVE to use another to reposition. You cannot unsummon a shade. Once you use them all it's straight melee shading.

You mean the +5 second duration?

Nevermind I confused myself.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Especially if harbingers shroud works with the new mechanic so you can precast it and still land one at range lmao

Currently HS goes off in two ways, at the location of already placed shades and around the scourge. If you move the shade it fails at the new location, but keeps ticking around you

With the new system, there is only one effect location... so if the coding is questionable we may end up with a precastable HS. Or maybe it will just fizzle completely and fail to activate anywhere. Or maybe you can precast it and portal bomb for absurd spike.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:With the new system, there is only one effect location... so if the coding is questionable we may end up with a precastable HS. Or maybe it will just fizzle completely and fail to activate anywhere. Or maybe you can precast it and portal bomb for absurd spike.

for sure if it does change and works with a precast then shade placement it will be borked. even a portal bomb with sand swell will be pretty ridonkulous.