Anet used Mordremoth too early

It would be much better to save this secret dragon for the last of before DSD, focus on Kralkatorrik next to Zhaitan since he's connected to the main characters/organization, and Jormag since there are so much build up in vanilla GW2.

I think the contrast was interesting: instead of being a fairly passive main actor in the story, this dragon instantly chose to go on high offensive as it awoke. It served as a wake-up call for the main cast: you beat Zhaitan, great. But you seriously think the other 5 will just wave their toes while you celebrate and return to your daily routine?

Also I think Joko's character was established well, but his empire never showed that much threat like the background showed us: Ruler of Elona. His menace mainly came from the plague.

Probably because Anet thought it's hard to do another undead themed campaign after Zhaitan.

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:but his empire never showed that much threatThat's because it never was, nor was it meant to be really.

Joko was never that important. Even in Guild Wars 1, he was just some guy who we released to learn how to ride wurms, so we could chase the real badguy. Joko's whole backstory was that he was kind of an idiot, who didn't really know how war worked, and thus got beaten and imprisoned by Turai Ossa. He also needed us to get his staff back for him because he couldn't do it himself. Joko only got as far as he did in between games because Anet gave the whole of Elona the biggest idiot ball ever and just had them ignore Joko... because reasons, and then had most of the Sunspears turn inexplicably evil... because reasons. Joko was never that important, nor he was never that smart, or powerful, he was just kind of lucky.

By the time we get to him in Guild Wars 2, he had spent years fighting a multi front war with the Risen and Branded. Then Balthazar shows up, traps him in the Domain of the Lost(again, Joko isn't that smart), and bring in his forged causing more problems for Joko's armies who are now leaderless, confused, and now facing another front of enemies to deal with, causing them to get slaughtered. Then we kill Archon Iberu, use his guise to steal Joko's armies, and then just throw them in a mad suicide charge against Baltahzar's forged in the final battle of PoF, which decimated his forces ever more. And, while all of this was happening, we also further destabilized his hold by attacking various major forts, liberating major towns, and helping the remaining Sunspears find a base, and sew dissent among the populace in Vabbi.

By the time we reached Elona, Joko's empire was already crumbling because he was never that good of a leader, not back in GW1, and not in GW2. He was just an egotistical idiot who got lucky.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:but his empire never showed that much threatThat's because it never was, nor was it meant to be really.

Plus, being immortal he had alot of time to do things that other people couldn't. Think about what the PC has accomplished in just seven years, and what they could accomplish over hundreds of years. The Source of Joko's power was irritating persistence.

He's basically the stereotypical shonen manga hero trope of GW2.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:That's because it never was, nor was it meant to be really.

Joko was never that important. Even in Guild Wars 1, he was just some guy who we released to learn how to ride wurms, so we could chase the real badguy. Joko's whole backstory was that he was kind of an idiot, who didn't really know how war worked, and thus got beaten and imprisoned by Turai Ossa. He also needed us to get his staff back for him because he couldn't do it himself. Joko only got as far as he did in between games because Anet gave the whole of Elona the biggest idiot ball ever and just had them ignore Joko... because reasons, and then had most of the Sunspears turn inexplicably evil... because reasons. Joko was never that important, nor he was never that smart, or powerful, he was just kind of lucky.

By the time we get to him in Guild Wars 2, he had spent years fighting a multi front war with the Risen and Branded. Then Balthazar shows up, traps him in the Domain of the Lost(again, Joko isn't that smart), and bring in his forged causing more problems for Joko's armies who are now leaderless, confused, and now facing another front of enemies to deal with, causing them to get slaughtered. Then we kill Archon Iberu, use his guise to steal Joko's armies, and then just throw them in a mad suicide charge against Baltahzar's forged in the final battle of PoF, which decimated his forces ever more. And, while all of this was happening, we also further destabilized his hold by attacking various major forts, liberating major towns, and helping the remaining Sunspears find a base, and sew dissent among the populace in Vabbi.

By the time we reached Elona, Joko's empire was already crumbling because he was never that good of a leader, not back in GW1, and not in GW2. He was just an egotistical idiot who got lucky.

Yeah in GW1 he was not a big deal, but in GW2 it's different.

He was able to conquer the whole Elona, pretty much smashed the Sunspear, and further establish his empire for hundreds of years. Such story has made him a very menacing figure, but in PoF and later story we didn't see it at all. The Mordren Crescent was also a big disappointment. Yeah his empire was continued to be a joke but it shouldn't have been given the background. Even Varesh Ossa, who had limited support from Abaddon was much more menacing than him.

If Anet never took him seriously, they should never made the "Joko conquered and ruled Elona for so long" plot from the beginning.

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:If Anet never took him seriously, they should never made the "Joko conquered and ruled Elona for so long" plot from the beginning.Anet having Joko take over Elona was just a narrative device to force the "decline" of humanity on the world stage(much like Cantha going dumb dumb and isolationist) so that when GW2 starts, the five races are on more equal footing, rather then humanity ruling like 80% of the known world.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:If Anet never took him seriously, they should never made the "Joko conquered and ruled Elona for so long" plot from the beginning.Anet having Joko take over Elona was just a narrative device to force the "decline" of humanity on the world stage(much like Cantha going dumb dumb and isolationist) so that when GW2 starts, the five races are on more equal footing, rather then humanity ruling like 80% of the known world.

They could have come with a much better plot. We've already had the humanity decline in the beginning of GW1: The Charr invasion and it was handled much better.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:but his empire never showed that much threatThat's because it never was, nor was it meant to be really.

Joko's modus operandi is using scare tactics, that's how he control the masses. He's a cult leader that uses his necromancy power to fulfill "miracles" to encourage the faithfuls that in death, they will be with him forever. However against unbelievers, he can't really do anything that's why Amnoon was able to maintain their independence. My point is, Joko is good at manipulating people using false hope and fear to control them. He's actually smart in those terms, idiots won't be able to control people, let alone make them believe in false hope. Balthazar fooled him because he believe that he is also a god coequal with the other gods, he was delusional or probably fan-girling on Balthazar.

Zhaitan was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.

I wasnt around back then but it looks like, at the time, they created the game before fully figuring out the whole story - and undead, orrians - zhaitan was the endgame and last zones and they wanted to make a complete story instead of letting you run several expansions before doing that. It makes sense, they later they decided where to go from that initial threat.

It's okay to me, those undeads and those zones are some of my least favorite in game and i don't much like the boss either i prefer a real powerful dragon, so it was good they get it out of the way! ;)

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Zhaitan was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.

Agreed, in novels/fantasy plots with multiple bosses, normally the "dead lord" or whatsover is setted up to the end, because, after all theres no big threat the fight the death itself............ but i guess they bandwagoned into other mmos where undead stuff shows too early too like neverwinter(Valindra Shadowmantle and the dread scourge) and Wow(Arthas ~ undead guys).

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Zhaitan was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.-Make a game whose plot is that giant dragon are destroying everything.-Can't actually fight the Elder Dragons in the base game, and instead fluff about with something unrelated.That makes literally all of zero sense.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Zhaitan

was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.-Make a game whose plot is that giant dragon are destroying everything.-Can't actually fight the Elder Dragons in the base game, and instead fluff about with something unrelated.That makes literally all of zero sense.

I am ok with Zhaitan being the boss of vanilla, but the dragon itself wasn't portrayed well, and it felt a bit disconnected between the racial and order/pact story.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Zhaitan

was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.-Make a game whose plot is that giant dragon are destroying everything.-Can't actually fight the Elder Dragons in the base game, and instead fluff about with something unrelated.That makes literally all of zero sense.

Makes no sense to you because you don't understand what I was saying.

When GW2 was being presented, the Elder Dragons weren't considered the focus, they were all narrative tools used to put the actors onto the stage - Jormag and Primordus were used to move the norn and asura closer to the rest. Zhaitan was used to cut off contact with Cantha. Kralkatorrik was used to bring the overpowered (from victory) charr down to par and cut off contact with Elona.

"a game whose plot is that giant dragons are destroying everything" wasn't the case until the game itself launched. Even then, with exception of sylvari and norn, the Elder Dragons aren't a frontal threat until you reach the racial sympathy storylines, and even then, the direct threat could have been replaced with literally anything else given the context of the plots.

When Guild Wars 2 began, the Elder Dragons were not the game's sole plot. They were the world's narrative for why we're stuck in Tyria after exploring other lands in Guild Wars 1. And the game opens up with the game's plot being that every race has their own issues that prevents them from dealing with bigger, distant issues such as the Elder Dragons. Those issues is what I would have preferred the original plot to have been about, rather than skimming them over as simple dungeon bosses (Adelbern/Foefire ghosts, Gaheron/Flame Legion, Kudu, Faolain/Cadeyrn) or leaving them until later (Caudecus) after we're a world saver many times over.

TL;DR

The game had other potential narratives which could have resulted in saving the first Elder Dragon defeat - a world changing event even before S3's added lore - for later.

Most action fiction begins with you dealing with a lower tier stuff, and ending with "fighting the world ending monstrosity". Guild Wars 2 instead began with fighting the world ending monstrosity. And I'm saying it shouldn't have. It set the stage for future conflicts too high, too quickly, and made all other potential conflicts feel trivial in comparison.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Zhaitan

was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.-Make a game whose plot is that giant dragon are destroying everything.-Can't actually fight the Elder Dragons in the base game, and instead fluff about with something unrelated.That makes literally all of zero sense.

It was, the novels all meant to introduce the dragons, the logo is a dragon, EotN was also to set up the dragons.

You need to kill a dragon in the game. Zhaitan was done well other than the final fight.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Zhaitan was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.

They tried this for 1.5 years before Modremoth with LS1, people got very irritated that ArenaNet abanonded the dragons, which is why they had to do a complete turnaround on the haphazard Scarlet Briar storyline into having something to do with them.

When people finished PS, they weren't saying "that was too fast", they were saying "well? where's the rest??".

I still remember the rejoicing in the game and forums when the Pact airship showed up in the devestated Lion's Arch, which turned into massive praise by the time we got to the Silverwastes, the hype was real, it was happening.

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Zhaitan

was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.

Storywise, Kralkatorrik should have been the first dragon because it is tightly connected to the main characters/organization. But Zhaitan has Orr as a new place to show players, also the Risen are easier to be designed as such a scary army. You can see how bland the Branded were.

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Zhaitan

was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.

Having been around for Season 1, I disagree with your view/memory.

The main issue with Season 1 that I recall the community had was that it downplayed the later personal story (or outright ignored). This was a design flaw in ArenaNet treating S1 to happen "at whatever point in the personal story you happen to be", but not actually taking steps to reflect this. People didn't dislike Season 1 because it wasn't about dragons, they disliked it because we just ended a world-ending threat with the grand military Pact on our heels, just to then go around dealing with local issues and no sign of the Pact or our personal Order in sight and zero explanation for why we're not bringing in the big guns to take down these alliances when by all rights we had the full authority to do so.

The rejoicing I recall is from ArenaNet finally acknowledging an order of events, and just in general greatly enjoying the finale that destroyed a city.

Again, this ultimately stemming from the fact that ArenaNet set the bar too high with the very initial plot.

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:It was, the novels all meant to introduce the dragons, the logo is a dragon, EotN was also to set up the dragons.

You need to kill a dragon in the game. Zhaitan was done well other than the final fight.

Ghosts of Ascalon had nothing to do with dragons. So only half the novels set up the dragons - and it more focused on Destiny's Edge than the dragons.

Dragon Age's logo is a dragon, hell its name is a dragon, and yet its plot is primarily about politics and a civil war - the darkspawn and the archdemon take a back seat, and the high dragon is an optional fight. Dragon Age 2 is even more so not about dragons, despite the logo and name.

EotN set up a lot of things, Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik were just three of many.

So no, you did not need to kill an Elder Dragon. The Elder Dragons just had to be a looming threat. And they were even if you remove Orr and Zhaitan and replace the personal story from Battle for Claw Island with the dungeons or Season 1.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Makes no sense to you because you don't understand what I was saying.

When GW2 was being presented, the Elder Dragons weren't considered the focus, they were all narrative tools used to put the actors onto the stage - Jormag and Primordus were used to move the norn and asura closer to the rest. Zhaitan was used to cut off contact with Cantha. Kralkatorrik was used to bring the overpowered (from victory) charr down to par and cut off contact with Elona.Konig, you know this is completely untrue. Both EoTN, and pre-release material, was hyping up the dragons as the main threat. The game was always about the dragons, and how they have affected everything around them. They were never just a narrative tool to put the actors on the stage for other stories.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:"a game whose plot is that giant dragons are destroying everything" wasn't the case until the game itself launched. Even then, with exception of sylvari and norn, the Elder Dragons aren't a frontal threat until you reach the racial sympathy storylines, and even then, the direct threat could have been replaced with literally anything else given the context of the plots.

When Guild Wars 2 began, the Elder Dragons were not the game's sole plot. They were the world's narrative for why we're stuck in Tyria after exploring other lands in Guild Wars 1. And the game opens up with the game's plot being that every race has their own issues that prevents them from dealing with bigger, distant issues such as the Elder Dragons. Those issues is what I would have preferred the original plot to have been about, rather than skimming them over as simple dungeon bosses (Adelbern/Foefire ghosts, Gaheron/Flame Legion, Kudu, Faolain/Cadeyrn) or leaving them until later (Caudecus) after we're a world saver many times over.

TL;DR

The game had other potential narratives which could have resulted in saving the first Elder Dragon defeat - a world changing event even before S3's added lore - for later.

Most action fiction begins with you dealing with a lower tier stuff, and ending with "fighting the world ending monstrosity". Guild Wars 2 instead began with fighting the world ending monstrosity. And I'm saying it shouldn't have. It set the stage for future conflicts too high, too quickly, and made all other potential conflicts feel trivial in comparison.That is basic narrative progression, especially for MMOs.

Star Trek Online(the other MMO I play frequently) lets you play as a Federation, Klingon Empire, or Romulan Star Empire, captain. Each one of them has their own stating narrative

• Federation captains deal with a rogue Klingon ambassador trying to cause endless war between the two powers
• Klingons hunt down a Section 31(Federation illegal black ops group) agent, and uncover a conspiracy between the Klingon House of Torg and the Romulan Star Empire
• Romulans have their colony world attacked by a mysterious force, join a freedom movement, and uncover the conspiracy between this force and the Romulan Star Empire

And these personal narratives last around 20 story mission each or so... then every faction joins the same storyline, as part of cross faction content, where you fight ever increasingly powerful foes, until you reach the game's true enemies, the Iconians, who were behind most of it. Then it continues on past that will the fallout of the Iconian war, and other related stuff, for the next 100+ story missions the game has. And this is exactly how Guild Wars 2 works as well, you have 15 racial background missions before joining the order storylines where you face ever increasing odds until you fight the big bosses, the Elder Dragons.

You have the entirety of Guild Wars 2 backwards. The Elder Dragons were never just narrative devices to put everyone on the same stage, with these other stories being the real focus. These other stories were just narrative background material so the game could explain the zero that your character starts off as, getting to enough of a hero that it makes sense they could fight the Elder Dragons.

The things you mention would have never been the focus of the game, because they aren't large enough to last long enough to really make a satisfying story. And when you have something like the Elder Dragons floating around, spending YEARS of game time dealing with something like even the Mantle just feels like wasted time on something that really doesn't matter that much. Star Trek Online avoided making those kinds of thing the focus after the starting missions for the same reason. They bring them up and develop them a little every now and then, but they are never the focus, because that isn't good narrative writing.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Konig, you know this is completely untrue. Both EoTN, and pre-release material, was hyping up the dragons as the main threat. The game was always about the dragons, and how they have affected everything around them. They were never just a narrative tool to put the actors on the stage for other stories.

You know what's kinda funny?

You can say the same thing about guild confrontations for all the promotions and hyping up of Prophecies.

So where was that Guild War in GW1?

And these personal narratives last around 20 story mission each or so... then every faction joins the same storyline, as part of cross faction content, where you fight ever increasingly powerful foes, until you reach the game's true enemies, the Iconians, who were behind most of it. Then it continues on past that will the fallout of the Iconian war, and other related stuff, for the next 100+ story missions the game has. And this is exactly how Guild Wars 2 works as well, you have 15 racial background missions before joining the order storylines where you face ever increasing odds until you fight the big bosses, the Elder Dragons.

You have the entirety of Guild Wars 2 backwards. The Elder Dragons were never just narrative devices to put everyone on the same stage, with these other stories being the real focus. These other stories were just narrative background material so the game could explain the zero that your character starts off as, getting to enough of a hero that it makes sense they could fight the Elder Dragons.

The things you mention would have never been the focus of the game, because they aren't large enough to last long enough to really make a satisfying story. And when you have something like the Elder Dragons floating around, spending YEARS of game time dealing with something like even the Mantle just feels like wasted time on something that really doesn't matter that much. Star Trek Online avoided making those kinds of thing the focus after the starting missions for the same reason. They bring them up and develop them a little every now and then, but they are never the focus, because that isn't good narrative writing.

It feels like you're mistakenly thinking I'm suggesting multiple full storylines that have nothing to do with Elder Dragons. Or that the player races should have their own individual plots for several installments. I'm not.

I'm saying basically "switch the order of Personal Story and Season 1" in terms of narrative focus.

Non-Elder Dragon threats aren't large enough to last long enough to make a satisfying story? I mean, that's literally season 1. Elder Dragons only got added at the literal last minute. It was a retrospective addition that ultimately changes nothing about Season 1 and only served the purpose of setting the stage for Season 2 and Heart of Thorns.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:You know what's kinda funny?

You can say the same thing about guild confrontations for all the promotions and hyping up of Prophecies.

So where was that Guild War in GW1?That isn't the Guild Wars marketing I remember. The GW1 marketing I remember is stuff like this trailer

Which stated the Guild Wars happened in the past, and show them fighting rando monsters

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Non-Elder Dragon threats aren't large enough to last long enough to make a satisfying story? I mean, that's literally season 1. Elder Dragons only got added at the literal last minute. It was a retrospective addition that ultimately changes nothing about Season 1 and only served the purpose of setting the stage for Season 2 and Heart of Thorns.And in Star Trek Online there is an entire story arc called Delta Rising, where the player goes to the Delta Quadrant of the Galaxy, fights an aggressive species called the Vaadwaur who are trying to take it over, and, in the literal last mission of the story arc, the players finds a strange device that leads to the discovery that the Iconians, the game's big bad, were manipulating them the whole time. The "end of season" reveal that shows that what you thought was the main threat was actually just a pawn of something larger is a fairly common trope in all forms of media, and doesn't invalidate that the narrative is part of the larger meta narrative.

You are also wrong that the Elder Dragons being involved or not changes nothing about Season 1. If Scarlet Briar wasn't working for the Elder Dragons, and wasn't trying to redirect a ley line into Mordremoth, then what would have been the point of her attack on Lions Arch? Her actions, and all the efforts she had gone through to develop that technology, at that would point serve no logical purpose, and thus, makes the whole storyline just a giant "just because... reasons!" narrative, which is just poor writing.

Without the Elder Dragon connection her story would have lasted all of about how long the White Mantle stuff did in S3, and I do mean the actual Mantle stuff in S3, not S3 as a whole which had several episodes that had nothing to do with the Mantle, because that is how long one of those kinds of smaller threats would reasonable last. So maybe about 2 LW releases, maybe 3 if you are stretching it out.

Which is about how long the Mantle itself lasted, how long Joko lasted, and about how long I expect the very probable Charr civil conflict to last this season.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Zhaitan

was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.

It not being about Dragons was a major sticking point. You are right on your other points - they were sticking points as well, but this was also something people were feeding back a lot about - certainly very loudly. "When are we going back to the Dragons" was a common complaint on the boards. There was a lot of hope as well about each section of the arc about to reveal a Dragon, whether it was interpreting the foreshadowing of the Karka Invasion as being the DSD about to rise, or "Flame and Frost" setting up Primordus and/or Jormag. And when the story got bogged down going absolutely nowhere and people still clamoured for Dragons, Anet had to break their silence and ask us to bear with them and let a deliberate hint out to say they hadn't abandoned the Dragons.

There was a lot about S1 people didn't like and not being obviously connected to the Dragon story was def one of them.

I've always felt the Dragons were better left in the background rather than killing them off, with other arcs at the forefront. I'm not sure that would have been as popular though.

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Zhaitan

was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.

No, they were set as huge threat they need to be dealt with. If you want to keep them as background they should not be posed as the all evil immediate threat from the beginning.

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Zhaitan

was used too early. They should have had a non-ED problem to solve for the initial plot, before setting us up against the "impossible to kill forces of nature" that are the Elder Dragons.

That was my point