Question about Build Template slots.

[Thorstienn.1642]

@Roquen.5406 said:

@Thorstienn.1642 said:

@Roquen.5406 said:

@Thorstienn.1642 said:1 thing I'll add as it seems people ignore this: its 3 "saved" templates, so it is a small upgrade to the 3 builds we currently have, because you can swap around stuff for testing, then 1 click later go back to what you had it saved as. I know that I will like that feature in PvP for sure.

The rest of the discussion I leave to those that care.

You had unlimited before...now you have three...and if you want 1 for each mode, you have to pay for an additional three just have to three...otherwise everytime you swap between modes you have to recreate templates or just manually click and drag.

What?I have 3 now; 1 in each mode. After the change I will have 3 (which I can use for whatever, but let's just say I use 1 for each mode again).Example,Currently, in PvE I use a Core Bannerslave for fractals. I got to do some story mode. I manually change all my traits etc. I play. I go back to fractals, I manually change all my traits etc again.

After change, in PvE I use a Core Bannerslave for fractals and save as my template. I got to do some story mode. I manually change all my traits etc. I play. I go back to fractals, I select my saved template and im good to go.

Delta's templates had unlimited slots.

I am aware. I was pointing out that it is an upgrade to what we have IN THE GAME. Ie we have 3 now, but the new 3 will be better.

I will not join the discussion about Deltas templates, as 1 it was 3 party, 2 I didnt use, 3 I dont "need" unlimited, and 4 it's a moot point: you can't use then anymore this is the new thing.

[Roquen.5406]

@Operator.2590 said:

@Roquen.5406 said:Alright Obtena/Operator alt account. Good luck.I like how your first assumption is that it’s an alt account of one of us, instead of the possibility that there’s just more people who disagree with you who can also read the posts above.

Whew, now those are some self-centered mental gymnastics.

It's okay to disagree with me but he spouts the same nonsensical argument that you do. The only reason the addon was taken down is so Anet can make money, which is perfectly fine but don't nickel-and-dime people for an inferior product.

Also, you are praising Anet for taking something away and giving it back to you, as if it's something shiny and new.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Thorstienn.1642 said:

@Roquen.5406 said:

@Thorstienn.1642 said:1 thing I'll add as it seems people ignore this: its 3 "saved" templates, so it is a small upgrade to the 3 builds we currently have, because you can swap around stuff for testing, then 1 click later go back to what you had it saved as. I know that I will like that feature in PvP for sure.

The rest of the discussion I leave to those that care.

You had unlimited before...now you have three...and if you want 1 for each mode, you have to pay for an additional three just have to three...otherwise everytime you swap between modes you have to recreate templates or just manually click and drag.

What?I have 3 now; 1 in each mode. After the change I will have 3 (which I can use for whatever, but let's just say I use 1 for each mode again).Example,Currently, in PvE I use a Core Bannerslave for fractals. I got to do some story mode. I manually change all my traits etc. I play. I go back to fractals, I manually change all my traits etc again.

After change, in PvE I use a Core Bannerslave for fractals and save as my template. I got to do some story mode. I manually change all my traits etc. I play. I go back to fractals, I select my saved template and im good to go.

Each of your characters will have access to two Equipment Template tabs for free, and the first will be automatically populated with an Equipment Template containing the gear your character was wearing when you last logged in. You can purchase additional Equipment Template tabs from the Gem Store.

I see only 2 equipment templates

[Asum.4960]

@"Thorstienn.1642" said:1 thing I'll add as it seems people ignore this: its 3 "saved" templates, so it is a small upgrade to the 3 builds we currently have, because you can swap around stuff for testing, then 1 click later go back to what you had it saved as. I know that I will like that feature in PvP for sure.

The rest of the discussion I leave to those that care.

The only actual Templates are the account wide ones, not the 3+3 character ones, which are still just Loadouts.The new character Loadouts, just as right now with PvE, PvP and WvW Loadouts automatically save any changes, so what you are describing is precisely what you won't be able to do, except if you keep a file around with chatcodes to constantly spam in chat, load into your Account templates, load into your character Template, to then delete again, to circumvent the whole unnecessary monetisation in the first place.Aside from when it comes to Gear Templates, which in turn are going to be awful value for anyone with Legendary Gear as they wont get any value out of them like saving inventory space, but are must buys for those especially since Legendaries are a special chore to swap.

Can the people defending these Anet Templates at least watch the stream from Anet showcasing them, to actually understand how clunky and bad they are, before highlighting features as defense of them which are precisely lacking?

I can say for myself, the more I looked into how they work (or don't work), the more disappointed I was with them. Especially from the viewpoint of a hardcore player, every little aspect of them is pretty much the worst case scenario.Not only do they colossally fail as template system in almost every way concerning what hardcore players actually need in such a system (aside from the build linking, which is cool), it's also monetised in a way we actually joked about years ago with how someone like EA would monetise such a system, selling single Template/Loadout slots for 5€ and up, which is highly disappointing to see become a reality from Anet to say the least, and probably not what most people had in mind when they said that they wouldn't mind if Anet charged for them a bit, to justify their development.

[Airdive.2613]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

I see only 2 equipment templates

Which is twice the amount of equipment templates we currently have.

[Asum.4960]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

I see only 2 equipment templates

Which is twice the amount of equipment templates we currently have.

Which is why Arc Templates was a necessary tool for hardcore players to enjoy the game, and pretending it doesn't exist just because you chose not to use them, or are the type of player who didn't feel the need for a robust template system to turn to such a tool, doesn't really help the discussion.

Natively or not, we had unlimited Templates before, and especially considering how much of a chore it is to swap gear the more Legendaries you have and how many times you have to swap in endgame content or when playing multiple gamemodes, it's a necessary game feature, which is gone just now after having been part of the game since years, to soon be replaced by a native system which in no way replaces that functionality while being overly monetised just to remove some of the limits.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

I see only 2 equipment templates

Which is twice the amount of equipment templates we currently have.

Again. If you play wvw, pvp and pve you now have 3. After the patch you will not have separate templates in those modes. You will have only 2

[Taygus.4571]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Operator.2590 said:

@Roquen.5406 said:Oh...so it's worse than I thought...they are taking away what we have, giving it back to us and making us pay for three additional slots max. Meh oh well.

They’re adding a feature to the game that was never there to begin with, actually—which you have the option of buying more of, if you need it.

Actualy, if you play wvw, pvp and pve you already have 3 gear slots right? Well, now you have only 2 :D

Um no.

Gear never changed automatically between pve/wvw... nor pvp.Only traits changed

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Taygus.4571 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Operator.2590 said:

@Roquen.5406 said:Oh...so it's worse than I thought...they are taking away what we have, giving it back to us and making us pay for three additional slots max. Meh oh well.

They’re adding a feature to the game that was never there to begin with, actually—which you have the option of buying more of, if you need it.

Actualy, if you play wvw, pvp and pve you already have 3 gear slots right? Well, now you have only 2 :D

Um no.

Gear never changed automatically between pve/wvw... nor pvp.Only traits changed

Gear changes between wvw and pve for sure. Or atleast it did a year ago when I wad crafting my legendary

Edit: looks like I was mistaken.

[Dante.1508]

Can we use the PvP and WVW slots as PvE slots if we don't do the other content? because if not nothing changed game wise... Its still garbage unless you buy more.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Dante.1508 said:Can we use the PvP and WVW slots as PvE slots if we don't do the other content?

Yes.

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Gear changes between wvw and pve for sure. Or atleast it did a year ago when I wad crafting my legendary

Edit: looks like I was mistaken.

Well, at least you admit your mistake after trying repeatedly to convince people you are right...

Best summary so far:

@Asum.4960 said:The only actual Templates are the account wide ones, not the 3+3 character ones, which are still just Loadouts.The new character Loadouts, just as right now with PvE, PvP and WvW Loadouts automatically save any changes, so what you are describing is precisely what you won't be able to do, except if you keep a file around with chatcodes to constantly spam in chat, load into your Account templates, load into your character Template, to then delete again, to circumvent the whole unnecessary monetisation in the first place.Aside from when it comes to Gear Templates, which in turn are going to be awful value for anyone with Legendary Gear as they wont get any value out of them like saving inventory space, but are must buys for those especially since Legendaries are a special chore to swap.

Can the people defending these Anet Templates at least watch the stream from Anet showcasing them, to actually understand how clunky and bad they are, before highlighting features as defense of them which are precisely lacking?

I can say for myself, the more I looked into how they work (or don't work), the more disappointed I was with them. Especially from the viewpoint of a hardcore player, every little aspect of them is pretty much the worst case scenario.Not only do they colossally fail as template system in almost every way concerning what hardcore players actually need in such a system (aside from the build linking, which is cool), it's also monetised in a way we actually joked about years ago with how someone like EA would monetise such a system, selling single Template/Loadout slots for 5€ and up, which is highly disappointing to see become a reality from Anet to say the least, and probably not what most people had in mind when they said that they wouldn't mind if Anet charged for them a bit, to justify their development.

:+1:

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Can we use the PvP and WVW slots as PvE slots if we don't do the other content?

Yes.

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Gear changes between wvw and pve for sure. Or atleast it did a year ago when I wad crafting my legendary

Edit: looks like I was mistaken.

Well, at least you admit your mistake after trying repeatedly to convince people you are right...

Best summary so far:

@Asum.4960 said:The only actual Templates are the account wide ones, not the 3+3 character ones, which are still just Loadouts.The new character Loadouts, just as right now with PvE, PvP and WvW Loadouts automatically save any changes, so what you are describing is precisely what you won't be able to do, except if you keep a file around with chatcodes to constantly spam in chat, load into your Account templates, load into your character Template, to then delete again, to circumvent the whole unnecessary monetisation in the first place.Aside from when it comes to Gear Templates, which in turn are going to be awful value for anyone with Legendary Gear as they wont get any value out of them like saving inventory space, but are must buys for those especially since Legendaries are a special chore to swap.

Can the people defending these Anet Templates at least watch the stream from Anet showcasing them, to actually understand how clunky and bad they are, before highlighting features as defense of them which are precisely lacking?

I can say for myself, the more I looked into how they work (or don't work), the more disappointed I was with them. Especially from the viewpoint of a hardcore player, every little aspect of them is pretty much the worst case scenario.Not only do they colossally fail as template system in almost every way concerning what hardcore players actually need in such a system (aside from the build linking, which is cool), it's also monetised in a way we actually joked about years ago with how someone like EA would monetise such a system, selling single Template/Loadout slots for 5€ and up, which is highly disappointing to see become a reality from Anet to say the least, and probably not what most people had in mind when they said that they wouldn't mind if Anet charged for them a bit, to justify their development.

:+1:

Well. Truth is truth. Maybe it was a feature on arc, maybe it was luck that I was on right set or maybe I swaped so fast I dont remember. Still I think that this system is nowhere near enough compared to what arc provided.

[Asum.4960]

@Dante.1508 said:Can we use the PvP and WVW slots as PvE slots if we don't do the other content? because if not nothing changed game wise... Its still garbage unless you buy more.

Yes, you a free to use the Loadout slots for any gamemode.

Basically the less invested/more casual with the game you are, the better value the system is. It essentially punishes you for any further investment, like getting into new gamemodes, pursuing legendaries or getting invested into endgame PvE, wanting to cover multiple roles on demand.The more you do, achieve and progress in game, the more the system falls short, while charging you for every step along the way, on top of all the other monetisation already in the game.Which if combined together, is starting to become overbearing, especially for newer players I imagine.

People will be even less inclined to jump into different content when faced with the decision of having to buy extra template or character slots just to check out another mode without putting one of their few other builds they frequently use on the chopping block.If you want to make a new character, not only are you looking at 800 Gems for a character slot, maybe 400-800 Gems to get reasonable inventory space, but also up to a few thousand Gems for Template slots, to a point where eventually you have to consider the price of a full priced game just to roll another Profession or character.

Systems seem to become just vehicles for more monetisation at this point, while clever original game design, to for example encourage players to check out multiple gamemodes instead of punishing them for it, is scrapped.

[Dante.1508]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Can we use the PvP and WVW slots as PvE slots if we don't do the other content? because if not nothing changed game wise... Its still garbage unless you buy more.

Yes, you a free to use the Loadout slots for any gamemode.

Basically the less invested/more casual with the game you are, the better value the system is. It essentially punishes you for any further investment, like getting into new gamemodes, pursuing legendaries or getting invested into endgame PvE, wanting to cover multiple roles on demand.The more you do, achieve and progress in game, the more the system falls short, while charging you for every step along the way, on top of all the other monetisation already in the game.Which if combined together, is starting to become overbearing, especially for newer players I imagine.

People will be even less inclined to jump into different content when faced with the decision of having to buy extra template or character slots just to check out another mode without putting one of their few other builds they frequently use on the chopping block.If you want to make a new character, not only are you looking at 800 Gems for a character slot, maybe 400-800 Gems to get reasonable inventory space, but also up to a few thousand Gems for Template slots, to a point where eventually you have to consider the price of a full priced game just to roll another Profession or character.

Systems seem to become just vehicles for more monetisation at this point, while clever original game design, to for example encourage players to check out multiple gamemodes instead of punishing them for it, is scrapped.

This is playing games casually is the best, going nuts over virtual entertainment just ends in tears..

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

if we had separate slots for wvw and pvp 2 or for 200 gems adding a slot to every character it wouldn't be a such big issues

[Thorstienn.1642]

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Thorstienn.1642" said:1 thing I'll add as it seems people ignore this: its 3 "saved" templates, so it is a small upgrade to the 3 builds we currently have, because you can swap around stuff for testing, then 1 click later go back to what you had it saved as. I know that I will like that feature in PvP for sure.

The rest of the discussion I leave to those that care.

The only actual Templates are the account wide ones, not the 3+3 character ones, which are still just Loadouts.The new character Loadouts, just as right now with PvE, PvP and WvW Loadouts automatically save any changes, so what you are describing is precisely what you won't be able to do, except if you keep a file around with chatcodes to constantly spam in chat, load into your Account templates, load into your character Template, to then delete again, to circumvent the whole unnecessary monetisation in the first place.Aside from when it comes to Gear Templates, which in turn are going to be awful value for anyone with Legendary Gear as they wont get any value out of them like saving inventory space, but are must buys for those especially since Legendaries are a special chore to swap.

Can the people defending these Anet Templates at least watch the stream from Anet showcasing them, to actually understand how clunky and bad they are, before highlighting features as defense of them which are precisely lacking?

I can say for myself, the more I looked into how they work (or don't work), the more disappointed I was with them. Especially from the viewpoint of a hardcore player, every little aspect of them is pretty much the worst case scenario.Not only do they colossally fail as template system in almost every way concerning what hardcore players actually need in such a system (aside from the build linking, which is cool), it's also monetised in a way we actually joked about years ago with how someone like EA would monetise such a system, selling single Template/Loadout slots for 5€ and up, which is highly disappointing to see become a reality from Anet to say the least, and probably not what most people had in mind when they said that they wouldn't mind if Anet charged for them a bit, to justify their development.

I rewatched. And you are correct. I misinterpreted how the 2 seperate tabs function.In fact the "account" tab seems only useful to a player like myself (testing something new, playing a quick bit of story on a fractal character, etc), in that I wouldn't be "saving" a chat code; but that's a big who cares.To be honest, I'm not even sure I understand the point of those tabs at all now. Why would I care about a firebrand setup I have when playing a necro?

The equipment part is a different story, but still poorly implemented for both Legendary gear and to a lesser extent any account bound gear.

I can still use its functionality to benefit myself more than the current system, but definitely not as QoL as I had thought.

[Asum.4960]

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:if we had separate slots for wvw and pvp 2 or for 200 gems adding a slot to every character it wouldn't be a such big issues

Exactly. The issue is less so that people want everything for free, but rather they would prefer reasonable monetisation, as well as some improvements to how the system is handled in general.For example making the character gear and build loadouts actual Templates with a save and load functionality, along vastly increasing the maximum Template amount in addition to reasonable pricing for such a feature (like 400 Gems for 5-10 Loadout slots per character, or an account wide unlocked slot or two) would go a long way.

@Thorstienn.1642 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Thorstienn.1642 said:1 thing I'll add as it seems people ignore this: its 3 "saved" templates, so it is a small upgrade to the 3 builds we currently have, because you can swap around stuff for testing, then 1 click later go back to what you had it saved as. I know that I will like that feature in PvP for sure.

The rest of the discussion I leave to those that care.

The only actual Templates are the account wide ones, not the 3+3 character ones, which are still just Loadouts.The new character Loadouts, just as right now with PvE, PvP and WvW Loadouts automatically save any changes, so what you are describing is precisely what you won't be able to do, except if you keep a file around with chatcodes to constantly spam in chat, load into your Account templates, load into your character Template, to then delete again, to circumvent the whole unnecessary monetisation in the first place.Aside from when it comes to Gear Templates, which in turn are going to be awful value for anyone with Legendary Gear as they wont get any value out of them like saving inventory space, but are must buys for those especially since Legendaries are a special chore to swap.

Can the people defending these Anet Templates at least watch the stream from Anet showcasing them, to actually understand how clunky and bad they are, before highlighting features as defense of them which are precisely lacking?

I can say for myself, the more I looked into how they work (or don't work), the more disappointed I was with them. Especially from the viewpoint of a hardcore player, every little aspect of them is pretty much the worst case scenario.Not only do they colossally fail as template system in almost every way concerning what hardcore players actually need in such a system (aside from the build linking, which is cool), it's also monetised in a way we actually joked about years ago with how someone like EA would monetise such a system, selling single Template/Loadout slots for 5€ and up, which is highly disappointing to see become a reality from Anet to say the least, and probably not what most people had in mind when they said that they wouldn't mind if Anet charged for them a bit, to justify their development.

I rewatched. And you are correct. I misinterpreted how the 2 seperate tabs function.In fact the "account" tab seems only useful to a player like myself (testing something new, playing a quick bit of story on a fractal character, etc), in that I wouldn't be "saving" a chat code; but that's a big who cares.To be honest, I'm not even sure I understand the point of those tabs at all now. Why would I care about a firebrand setup I have when playing a necro?

The equipment part is a different story, but still poorly implemented for both Legendary gear and to a lesser extent any account bound gear.

I can still use its functionality to benefit myself more than the current system, but definitely not as QoL as I had thought.

If you haven't been using Arc it's definitely an upgrade to how things were before, I'm not going to contest that. Then again, pretty much anything would be, as any build saving functionality was completely lacking, aside from the gamemode loadouts, making everything an upgrade to that.For Arc users, which is probably most people for whom Templates aren't just a minor convenience but rather a necessary feature, it's unfortunately a massive QoL downgrade.

As far as I understand it, the Account wide actual Templates are mostly for Build Sharing/saving, so you can save a Template someone linked for another profession for later use, even if you currently are not on that profession yourself, which then allows to to copy it into your Character loadout at a later date.

It's a bit convoluted, although not completely impractical.The issue once again are just all the limitations on the system, mainly in terms of capacity, as well as the fact that even a simple feature as that couldn't be made available as core functionality of the system, and rather had to be monetised as slots as well, as that in a way disincentivizes it's own intended functionality with it's design and monetisation.How many people are actually going to buy these slots just to share out builds with others, or save builds others shared for later use?If at least those slots were free and (near) unlimited, sure, that's a nice thing to have to just collect some builds people post now and then, I suppose. But as payed feature, on top of everything else? I don't know.Even more so since the monetisation can be circumvented by keeping and posting chat codes from a text file anyway. It just makes the whole thing clunky and seem rather greedy.

[Operator.2590]

@Roquen.5406 said:

@Operator.2590 said:

@Roquen.5406 said:Alright Obtena/Operator alt account. Good luck.I like how your first assumption is that it’s an alt account of one of us, instead of the possibility that there’s just more people who disagree with you who can also read the posts above.

Whew, now those are some self-centered mental gymnastics.

It's okay to disagree with me but he spouts the same nonsensical argument that you do. The only reason the addon was taken down is so Anet can make money, which is perfectly fine but don't nickel-and-dime people for an inferior product.

Also, you are praising Anet for taking something away and giving it back to you, as if it's something shiny and new.

• It isn’t “nonsensical” just because it’s disagreeing with you.
• Delta didn’t have a company to run, employees to pay, servers to upkeep, and customers on all ends of the satisfaction spectrum to please. It was a volunteer service.
• I’ve never once praised it, I’ve just stated simple facts. If anything I’ve blatantly said it’s not as good as Delta’s templates, but that I hope they will continue to improve them to be so after they get the initial feedback from their launch. That doesn’t change the fact that it is an addition to the game that we did not have in-game before.

[Operator.2590]

Also,

@"Asum.4960 said:If you haven't been using Arc it's definitely an upgrade to how things were before, I'm not going to contest that. Then again, pretty much anything would be, as any build saving functionality was completely lacking, aside from the gamemode loadouts, making everything an upgrade to that.For Arc users, which is probably most people for whom Templates aren't just a minor convenience but rather a necessary feature, it's unfortunately a massive QoL downgrade.The irony of this is not lost on me, considering one of the biggest reasons Anet tried to keep a “No Third Party Programs. Period.” policy is so that they wouldn’t become a necessity to players. Especially when it came specifically to Delta’s templates—but was eventually greenlit thanks to Delta’s own repor with the devs themselves.

And then that’s exactly what happened.

But irony aside, let’s try to keep the Arc discussion in one place: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88933/i-want-to-keep-using-arc-build-templates#latestThe rest of your post is valid though. Basically, as I keep trying to advocate, there just needs to be a “Suggestions for GW2 Template Improvements” for future patches sure to come to improve the system after launch—instead of just a sea of endless complaints as it tends to be now.

[Roquen.5406]

@Operator.2590 said:

@Roquen.5406 said:

@Operator.2590 said:

@Roquen.5406 said:Alright Obtena/Operator alt account. Good luck.I like how your first assumption is that it’s an alt account of one of us, instead of the possibility that there’s just more people who disagree with you who can also read the posts above.

Whew, now those are some self-centered mental gymnastics.

It's okay to disagree with me but he spouts the same nonsensical argument that you do. The only reason the addon was taken down is so Anet can make money, which is perfectly fine but don't nickel-and-dime people for an inferior product.

Also, you are praising Anet for taking something away and giving it back to you, as if it's something shiny and new.

• It isn’t “nonsensical” just because it’s disagreeing with you.
• Delta didn’t have a company to run, employees to pay, servers to upkeep, and
  customers
  on all ends of the satisfaction spectrum to please. It was a volunteer service.
• I’ve never once
  praised
  it, I’ve just stated simple facts. If anything I’ve
  blatantly
  said it’s not as good as Delta’s templates, but that I hope they will continue to improve them to be so after they get the initial feedback from their launch. That doesn’t change the fact that it is an
  addition
  to the game that we did not have
  in-game
  before.

It's nonsensical because your stance is rooted in an opinion stated as fact, an opinion that Anet themselves did not share. Do you never buy off-brand products even if they are far superior to more expensive name-brand items? Like are you honestly telling me if you buy tires for your car that aren't from your car dealership, they are illegal and you are essentially scum for using them? I can't fathom that you haven't.

Delta is the off-brand here and it worked, very well. It is now removed because of money, which once again is perfectly fine because Anet can go make money but how they do that is the important part. Don't sell me more expensive tires, that are far inferior to a product available for two years, all while claiming, "well this is official", what do you expect?

You are right, Delta didn't have a company to run. They most likely had a full time job, maybe a spouse/partner/family to take care of. They didn't have the resources Anet has and they didn't even have the knowledge of their game code that Anet has. And yet in their spare time, they still managed to create something that is vastly superior to Anet's and it was free for us. They had to pay hosting fees out of their own pocket.

"and customers on all ends of the satisfaction spectrum to please. It was a volunteer service"

That part right there is interesting to me because they are ignoring a good chunk of customers with their version of templates but because it benefits you, you are okay with it.

[Operator.2590]

@"Roquen.5406 said:

In your analogy, Delta templates was not “off brand”—to compare it as so would mean Anet was fully endorsing it, which it has never done—which you can even see in the comments of their latest post addressing the banwave, where someone asked for their stance on Arcdps. Third Party has, and always will be, “Use at your own risk.” If anything it’s a homebrewed remedy, not an off-brand substitute.

Should’ve stuck by this the first time I said it to you in the Arc thread—but fool me twice, shame on me. Interest lost, it’s like trying to talk to a brick wall. If anything, your arguments are nonsensical at this point, given all the factual information that’s out there at this point.

Good luck to ya.

[Roquen.5406]

@Operator.2590 said:

@"Roquen.5406 said:

In your analogy, Delta templates was not “off brand”—to compare it as so would mean Anet was fully endorsing it, which it has

never

done—which you can even see in the comments of their latest post addressing the banwave, where someone asked for their stance on Arcdps. Third Party has, and

always

will be, “Use at your own risk.” If anything it’s a homebrewed remedy, not an off-brand substitute.

Should’ve stuck by this the first time I said it to you in the Arc thread—but fool me twice, shame on me. Interest lost, it’s like trying to talk to a brick wall. If anything,

your

arguments are nonsensical at this point, given all the

factual

information that’s out there at this point.

Good luck to ya.

And you side-step my valid points too. The "Use at your own risk" is referred to the change that players made to use Arc after Delta had taken out his templates out. Chris Cleary GREENLIT the templates two years ago, something you keep ignoring, it's baffling. The fact that you ignored everything I said is telling.

[Operator.2590]

@"Roquen.5406" said:And you side-step my valid points too. The "Use at your own risk" is referred to the change that players made to use Arc after Delta had taken out his templates out. Chris Cleary GREENLIT the templates two years ago, something you keep ignoring, it's baffling. The fact that you ignored everything I said is telling.

From Reddit:

ChrisCleary 770 points

About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client.

This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat.

I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others).

In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use".

This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon.

[Roquen.5406]

@Operator.2590 said:

@"Roquen.5406" said:And you side-step my valid points too. The "Use at your own risk" is referred to the change that players made to use Arc after Delta had taken out his templates out. Chris Cleary GREENLIT the templates two years ago, something you keep ignoring, it's baffling. The fact that you ignored everything I said is telling.

From Reddit:

ChrisCleary 770 points

About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client.

This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat.

I'm green-lighting this

due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes

to accommodate my push to

keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win"

situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others).

In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users

(in terms of violating the Terms of Service)

. I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use".

This is officially unsupported

, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon.

He worked with him to make sure that the templates had a delay, so players couldn't instantly swap gear to their advantage. This is the same thing Anet will do with their templates. The only reason he worked with him, is just to make sure everything was proper. This no different than vetting a potential client to make sure they are who they say they are.

Because he doesn't work with Anet they have to check things, make sure he isn't hacking into their system, stealing players data, stealing Anet's data, taking information that gives him an advantage, etc. That's why Chris worked with Delta. In the very same post you quote "green-lit and safe to use by users" and in that same post he mentions other developers can contact him if they wish to create addons. Clearly there is no ill-will against using addons.

Once again, the last part is a disclaimer...if the addon blew up your game, it would not be Anet's fault. That's all that says.

And finally, the ONLY REASON Delta had to take his templates down is because Anet wants to make money off of theirs. Which is perfectly fine, it's just that the product they released is far more limiting, and is essentially nickel-and-diming players (3 separate paywalls for templates? per character?).

[Obtena.7952]

You can argue it all you want or give it whatever label you want to support your view. It was 3rd party software and you will never see anything more than an uncomfortable tolerance exist between those and the game makers ... as you see now with the removal of it due to the introduction of the ingame feature. There are no products to compare ... because the ArcDPS wasn't a 'product'; there was no business case it has to support. The Ingame feature DOES have to support a business case. If this difference is lost on you, you aren't qualified to speak about it.