Caithe's Morals vs Honor — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Caithe's Morals vs Honor

Kashin.7192Kashin.7192 Member ✭✭

Okay, so inherently I did not have a problem with Caithe. Sylvari was my first choice for character and I loved learning about them. The only race [option] that didn't exist in GW1 to have a backstory we already new. I started with the Green Knight PS. Caithe seemed cool. Not as air headed as some Sylvari could seem to be. Star Crossed with Faolain. It was cool... until A Good Work Spoiled.

That would be the part where YOU GIVE YOUR WORD that the Nightmare Courtians who show up will be let go and live if they give you the information. They give you the information and Caithe sneaks up behind them and murders them! She then goes on to convince you this is a good thing and your character has to be okay with it.

Now it isn't so much the murder. I mean story wise, etc, I understand why it was done. If it had been an option of:
-Give your word and they live
-Give your word but actually lie
-Force the information

Etc or something like that. It wouldn't have been such a problem for me. But the fact that Caithe did this, there was not option to not be okay with the fact you gave your word and Caithe destroyed it, and she was kept as a Mentor/Person to look up to, was my problem. I mean at that point I would have 'divorced' myself from Caithe. Either gotten someone else from Destiny's Edge or even the Luminary from my Cycle to take over. But Caithe, knowing she is without Honor, I am not okay with that. I will concede she may have redeemed herself with DE and her friends. Or something like that later on that was more Honorable or whatever. But the fact she did this on my Word and Honor remains.

What do you guys think?

(Yes. It is a game, etc. It didn't give me real life problems, etc. But I did switch over to Asura after that to finish the Main story line. Later on I did go back and make a Sylvari that I completed with.)

Her invention, a navigational tool she had titled "the sextant". The first who laughed at the name found himself unable to speak properly for a week. The instrument had so revolutionized navigation that the city had named a section of the docks after her: Macha's Landing.

Comments

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2019

    Personally, I thought it was a nice touch. Caithe isn't a good-to-the-core character. She has her hang-ups, her shortcomings, her blind spots, and there are a number of occasions when those bring her into conflict with the PC. I find that to be a neat dynamic, at least for most of the story.

    But as for the specific issue... I don't remember that happening in the Green Knight storyline, and a quick skim of the wiki doesn't bring anything up either. I do remember it happening in Discovering Darkness, in the White Stag storyline. The PC does object there, try to talk her down, and afterwards gently rebukes her. ("A noble goal, so long as you don't let hatred consume you.") That seemed like a satisfactory measure to me- the sylvari PC is still very young and impressionable, still looking to Caithe in part to define what is right and wrong, and in the previous story step had a courtier take advantage of their innocence and betray them, which clearly shook them and left them disoriented. When I went through that scene, it felt like my character simply didn't know enough to have grounds to object more forcefully.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Kashin.7192Kashin.7192 Member ✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Personally, I thought it was a nice touch. Caithe isn't a good-to-the-core character. She has her hang-ups, her shortcomings, her blind spots, and there are a number of occasions when those bring her into conflict with the PC. I find that to be a neat dynamic, at least for most of the story.

    But as for the specific issue... I don't remember that happening in the Green Knight storyline, and a quick skim of the wiki doesn't bring anything up either. I do remember it happening in Discovering Darkness, in the White Stag storyline. The PC does object there, try to talk her down, and afterwards gently rebukes her. ("A noble goal, so long as you don't let hatred consume you.") That seemed like a satisfactory measure to me- the sylvari PC is still very young and impressionable, still looking to Caithe in part to define what is right and wrong, and in the previous story step had a courtier take advantage of their innocence and betray them, which clearly shook them and left them disoriented. When I went through that scene, it felt like my character simply didn't know enough to have grounds to object more forcefully.

    Thanks! It seems I may have had the quest lines mixed up.

    I suppose that is true, the Character is a bit wracked still after the previous scenario. However Caithe's actions in that scenario are the actions I would expect from someone of the Nightmare Court. They give you a scenario where you can rise above such actions. To be honorable and noble. She destroys that. Not only that but, (but now that you reminded me of the actual quest), Gavin, a member of the Nightmare Court, is a very Honorable person. Admittedly you do fight him over the White Stag, but his actions through out the quest were Honorable. He had a different view, surely, or he wouldn't be with the Nightmare Court. By the end of the Quest I was more comfortable with him then with Caithe. With him, not the Nightmare Court.

    I suppose that may have been the purpose of the quest. To show neither side is perfect/good/bad, etc. That Its not straight forward, black/white.

    Her invention, a navigational tool she had titled "the sextant". The first who laughed at the name found himself unable to speak properly for a week. The instrument had so revolutionized navigation that the city had named a section of the docks after her: Macha's Landing.

  • eh, wait until Living World Season 2 until you see Caithe at her worst.

    That said, it is not about 'neither side good/bad' it is 'one side is different shades of grey (I'd guess 255 shades tbh) the other side very black'

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 9, 2019

    the two LS2 chapters dedicated to her, make Caithe by far the best immersion history created in gw2.
    if u really dislike her, a bit of spoil to you: in Heart of Thorns the commander give her what she deserves.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Kashin.7192Kashin.7192 Member ✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    the two LS2 chapters dedicated to her, make Caithe by far the best immersion history created in gw2.
    if u really dislike her, a bit of spoil to you: in Heart of Thorns the commander give her what she deserves.

    She herself I don't have an issue with. I understand the character that does what is necessary. It was that she committed such actions that tarnished the Word and Honor of the Character without an option to call out on it. Now I understand that won't be a problem for most players. Probably mostly RP based ones would, and even then for those that care about such things.

    If I get the chance to play through LS2 myself, then I will be interested in seeing how she behaves and if she has changed at all.

    Also random aside, did Faolain ever resolve or is she still out in the world somewhere?

    Her invention, a navigational tool she had titled "the sextant". The first who laughed at the name found himself unable to speak properly for a week. The instrument had so revolutionized navigation that the city had named a section of the docks after her: Macha's Landing.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kashin.7192 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    the two LS2 chapters dedicated to her, make Caithe by far the best immersion history created in gw2.
    if u really dislike her, a bit of spoil to you: in Heart of Thorns the commander give her what she deserves.

    She herself I don't have an issue with. I understand the character that does what is necessary. It was that she committed such actions that tarnished the Word and Honor of the Character without an option to call out on it. Now I understand that won't be a problem for most players. Probably mostly RP based ones would, and even then for those that care about such things.

    If I get the chance to play through LS2 myself, then I will be interested in seeing how she behaves and if she has changed at all.

    Also random aside, did Faolain ever resolve or is she still out in the world somewhere?

    Do you really want an answer to that?

    I understand what you are saying and you should get used to it. The Commander is often very passive, without agency.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
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  • Kashin.7192Kashin.7192 Member ✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Kashin.7192 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    the two LS2 chapters dedicated to her, make Caithe by far the best immersion history created in gw2.
    if u really dislike her, a bit of spoil to you: in Heart of Thorns the commander give her what she deserves.

    She herself I don't have an issue with. I understand the character that does what is necessary. It was that she committed such actions that tarnished the Word and Honor of the Character without an option to call out on it. Now I understand that won't be a problem for most players. Probably mostly RP based ones would, and even then for those that care about such things.

    If I get the chance to play through LS2 myself, then I will be interested in seeing how she behaves and if she has changed at all.

    Also random aside, did Faolain ever resolve or is she still out in the world somewhere?

    Do you really want an answer to that?

    I understand what you are saying and you should get used to it. The Commander is often very passive, without agency.

    I suppose not. It will be good to try and find that info out. I have completed Main Story, HoT, and am currently working on PoF. However I have not done any of the Living World seasons at all, sadly. I hope to be able to do so at some point, cause I think you gembuy them to play through if I recall correctly.

    Her invention, a navigational tool she had titled "the sextant". The first who laughed at the name found himself unable to speak properly for a week. The instrument had so revolutionized navigation that the city had named a section of the docks after her: Macha's Landing.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kashin.7192 said:
    Okay, so inherently I did not have a problem with Caithe. Sylvari was my first choice for character and I loved learning about them. The only race [option] that didn't exist in GW1 to have a backstory we already new. I started with the Green Knight PS. Caithe seemed cool. Not as air headed as some Sylvari could seem to be. Star Crossed with Faolain. It was cool... until A Good Work Spoiled.

    That would be the part where YOU GIVE YOUR WORD that the Nightmare Courtians who show up will be let go and live if they give you the information. They give you the information and Caithe sneaks up behind them and murders them! She then goes on to convince you this is a good thing and your character has to be okay with it.

    Now it isn't so much the murder. I mean story wise, etc, I understand why it was done. If it had been an option of:
    -Give your word and they live
    -Give your word but actually lie
    -Force the information

    Etc or something like that. It wouldn't have been such a problem for me. But the fact that Caithe did this, there was not option to not be okay with the fact you gave your word and Caithe destroyed it, and she was kept as a Mentor/Person to look up to, was my problem. I mean at that point I would have 'divorced' myself from Caithe. Either gotten someone else from Destiny's Edge or even the Luminary from my Cycle to take over. But Caithe, knowing she is without Honor, I am not okay with that. I will concede she may have redeemed herself with DE and her friends. Or something like that later on that was more Honorable or whatever. But the fact she did this on my Word and Honor remains.

    What do you guys think?

    I think you clearly don't have to the stomach to make the tough calls and be commander of the Pact.
    My asura engineer agrees.

  • Tarlonniel.6534Tarlonniel.6534 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, my character wasn't okay with it either, and I wasn't okay with being stuck with her as the sylvari mentor figure. I was so happy when Trahearne and Canach came along and sort of pushed her aside.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    I guess it was the first "Life's full of mulch" lesson the fresh green sylvari PC gets. And quite a bitter one (got that on my very first GW2 character years ago; it was frustrating as hell - especially because of Gavin being an honor freak). Well, it had to start somewhere...
    Several more (8 out of 9 currently, is that a diagnose yet?) sylvari toons later I see this as a proof that the Nightmares were mistaken with the "shackles of Ventari's tablet". (Or that they should have come up with a better excuse.)

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • @Kashin.7192

    Caithe was an interesting character to me but well... without spoilering you have to play season two. Just in case you dont know. You can play season two with a friend or guild mate. Your character will not be the main but you get the story without paying gems for it.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree. I played other races before Sylvari and was quite okay with Caithe for quite some time. She seemed to be one of the more reasonable members of DE and maybe the only one who saw the greater picture first. Then, when I started the Sylvari story and played that very chapter, I also remember that was the first of many times my opinion of her seriously worsened.

    And I don't even care that much that she stole the egg in LS2 / HoT, except that we were forced to waste precious time for that nonsense.

    Caithe is one of the more multi-layered characters, yes. That does not mean we have to like her. I don't want her dead, but I would like to not have her nearby anymore, if possible.

  • Kashin.7192Kashin.7192 Member ✭✭

    I mean think of the implications this story line could have on in game effect. Character is Commander of the Pact. If it came out that two hostages were killed under your watch and protection and you did nothing about it could be the perfect fuel someone could have to start a campaign to undermine your integrity.

    Her invention, a navigational tool she had titled "the sextant". The first who laughed at the name found himself unable to speak properly for a week. The instrument had so revolutionized navigation that the city had named a section of the docks after her: Macha's Landing.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    To be fair, if anyone wanted to start a campaign against the PC based on past mistakes, they could easily find better targets than that. :)

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kashin.7192 said:
    I mean think of the implications this story line could have on in game effect. Character is Commander of the Pact. If it came out that two hostages were killed under your watch and protection and you did nothing about it could be the perfect fuel someone could have to start a campaign to undermine your integrity.

    And then it comes out that this happened when the Sylvari Commander was what, less then a month old, a few months old?

    Oh, or that the prisoners in question were Nightmare Court, who literally everybody hates and has very little issue killing on sight? Do remember the immediate reaction to finding a nightmare court prisoner in Heart of Thorns had, IIRC, Canach asking the commander right then "Shall I kill this one?"

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 9, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    eh, wait until Living World Season 2 until you see Caithe at her worst.

    That said, it is not about 'neither side good/bad' it is 'one side is different shades of grey (I'd guess 255 shades tbh) the other side very black'

    I disagree. Caithe shown during Season 2 and HoT is actually very little different than how she acts during Edge of Destiny. Even in the sylvari PS in all honesty. Caithe always has this "act first, explain later" mentality that makes her actions in S2 ultimately far from ordinary. It isn't so much Caithe's actions, but everyone's response to her actions, which is horrible writing. At least, the Commander's (especially a sylvari commander's reaction); Rytlock's reactions in HoT as well. It makes sense that Dragon's Watch (sans the Commander, Rytlock, and arguably Canach) would distrust Caithe when she runs off with the egg when the areas are mordrem infested, but it made no sense for the Commander to act like they did.

    Caithe taking the literal fate of the world and running away from caves infested with Mordrem is hardly a bad thing, let alone "at her worst". It was the writing forcing a poor reception of Caithe's action that was the worst. Just like with Braham in S3. His reaction to the PC felt unnaturally forced, especially since it got blamed on a humanistic grief over Eir that he had come to terms with at the end of HoT.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tarlonniel.6534Tarlonniel.6534 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Do remember the immediate reaction to finding a nightmare court prisoner in Heart of Thorns had, IIRC, Canach asking the commander right then "Shall I kill this one?"

    The difference there is that Canach asks, the commander says "No," and Canach doesn't kill anyone.

    Caithe's behavior in LWS2/HoT, both present time and flashback, made me angry too, but I'm much more forgiving of the present time stuff because of the whole Wyld Hunt/Mordremoth double whammy she was dealing with. I wouldn't have let her anywhere near anything important until after he was dead, though.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2019

    @Tarlonniel.6534 said:
    but I'm much more forgiving of the present time stuff because of the whole Wyld Hunt/Mordremoth double whammy she was dealing with.

    Of course, that's a factor and it does explain some of her views and actions. But she did not just learn about all that recently. Before the start of the PS she has already had about 20 years of time to deal with that shock and to try and form emergency plans with the Pale Tree. Which she did, partly, at least as far as Zhaitan was concerned. For the other part - not so much, apparently.

    On the other hand, she let all those pact sylvari just fly to the jungle without ANY warning. They did not have those 20 years she had. I would have thought that intelligent beings like Caithe and the Tree could have come up with SOME sort of emergency plan within 20 years. But Caithe being Caithe, maybe she never eben talked to her mother about all that.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    eh, wait until Living World Season 2 until you see Caithe at her worst.

    That said, it is not about 'neither side good/bad' it is 'one side is different shades of grey (I'd guess 255 shades tbh) the other side very black'

    I disagree. Caithe shown during Season 2 and HoT is actually very little different than how she acts during Edge of Destiny. Even in the sylvari PS in all honesty. Caithe always has this "act first, explain later" mentality that makes her actions in S2 ultimately far from ordinary. It isn't so much Caithe's actions, but everyone's response to her actions, which is horrible writing. At least, the Commander's (especially a sylvari commander's reaction); Rytlock's reactions in HoT as well. It makes sense that Dragon's Watch (sans the Commander, Rytlock, and arguably Canach) would distrust Caithe when she runs off with the egg when the areas are mordrem infested, but it made no sense for the Commander to act like they did.

    Caithe taking the literal fate of the world and running away from caves infested with Mordrem is hardly a bad thing, let alone "at her worst". It was the writing forcing a poor reception of Caithe's action that was the worst. Just like with Braham in S3. His reaction to the PC felt unnaturally forced, especially since it got blamed on a humanistic grief over Eir that he had come to terms with at the end of HoT.

    and I disagree with you on that. What Caithe did to W. was special. Incredible stupid and done out of cowardice. Something she hadn't shown before - or after.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    eh, wait until Living World Season 2 until you see Caithe at her worst.

    That said, it is not about 'neither side good/bad' it is 'one side is different shades of grey (I'd guess 255 shades tbh) the other side very black'

    I disagree. Caithe shown during Season 2 and HoT is actually very little different than how she acts during Edge of Destiny. Even in the sylvari PS in all honesty. Caithe always has this "act first, explain later" mentality that makes her actions in S2 ultimately far from ordinary. It isn't so much Caithe's actions, but everyone's response to her actions, which is horrible writing. At least, the Commander's (especially a sylvari commander's reaction); Rytlock's reactions in HoT as well. It makes sense that Dragon's Watch (sans the Commander, Rytlock, and arguably Canach) would distrust Caithe when she runs off with the egg when the areas are mordrem infested, but it made no sense for the Commander to act like they did.

    Caithe taking the literal fate of the world and running away from caves infested with Mordrem is hardly a bad thing, let alone "at her worst". It was the writing forcing a poor reception of Caithe's action that was the worst. Just like with Braham in S3. His reaction to the PC felt unnaturally forced, especially since it got blamed on a humanistic grief over Eir that he had come to terms with at the end of HoT.

    And in HoT when the commander suddenly and drastically flip flops between reactions. Start of the story: "We have much bigger issues, let's save the Pact soldiers, regroup, heal and rearm." then suddenly "wait, you saw Caithe? CAITHE GET BACK HERE." then "Oh Caithe disappeared? It's okay, she'll show up again sometime." and finally "Braham, if she bleeping breathes, turn her into pulp!"

    @Tarlonniel.6534 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Do remember the immediate reaction to finding a nightmare court prisoner in Heart of Thorns had, IIRC, Canach asking the commander right then "Shall I kill this one?"

    The difference there is that Canach asks, the commander says "No," and Canach doesn't kill anyone.

    Caithe's behavior in LWS2/HoT, both present time and flashback, made me angry too, but I'm much more forgiving of the present time stuff because of the whole Wyld Hunt/Mordremoth double whammy she was dealing with. I wouldn't have let her anywhere near anything important until after he was dead, though.

    The difference is as well, Canach is dealing with an experienced Commander and has to be on his best behavior. Caithe's example she is not only more experienced, in a position of more authority, and has much deeper, extensive knowledge about how messed up the nightmare court is and that letting those couple courtiers go is just condemning a dreamer down the road to be tortured and emotionally, mentally, and/or physically brutalized to be converted to Nightmare by said courtier.

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Tarlonniel.6534 said:
    but I'm much more forgiving of the present time stuff because of the whole Wyld Hunt/Mordremoth double whammy she was dealing with.

    Of course, that's a factor and it does explain some of her views and actions. But she did not just learn about all that recently. Before the start of the PS she has already had about 20 years of time to deal with that shock and to try and form emergency plans with the Pale Tree. Which she did, partly, at least as far as Zhaitan was concerned. For the other part - not so much, apparently.

    On the other hand, she let all those pact sylvari just fly to the jungle without ANY warning. They did not have those 20 years she had. I would have thought that intelligent beings like Caithe and the Tree could have come up with SOME sort of emergency plan within 20 years. But Caithe being Caithe, maybe she never eben talked to her mother about all that.

    On the other hand, Caithe didn't cause the Pact to be split apart by distrust and infighting and possibly ruin all future efforts.

    Seriously, imagine if that news had become public (Even just to Sylvari) shortly before the fleet launched? It'd ruin the Sylvari's public image (already tarnished in some areas by Scarlet and Nightmare court), possibly cause the pact + major race army reinforcements to split apart or back out.

    Or imagine if suddenly before the fleet launched you saw all the Sylvari pull out, or suddenly start taking extra steps to prepare. While the Sylvari in the pact forces got hit hard by distrust and suspicions, If they had suddenly backed out of the force entirely, or had been seen doing extra tasks/actions then other groups, the Entire Sylvari race could've been hit with accusations of always knowing they were spawns of Mordremoth, and possibly leading the Pact and other races into a trap on purpose to wipe out/enslave them all in their "Fathers" name.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    eh, wait until Living World Season 2 until you see Caithe at her worst.

    That said, it is not about 'neither side good/bad' it is 'one side is different shades of grey (I'd guess 255 shades tbh) the other side very black'

    I disagree. Caithe shown during Season 2 and HoT is actually very little different than how she acts during Edge of Destiny. Even in the sylvari PS in all honesty. Caithe always has this "act first, explain later" mentality that makes her actions in S2 ultimately far from ordinary. It isn't so much Caithe's actions, but everyone's response to her actions, which is horrible writing. At least, the Commander's (especially a sylvari commander's reaction); Rytlock's reactions in HoT as well. It makes sense that Dragon's Watch (sans the Commander, Rytlock, and arguably Canach) would distrust Caithe when she runs off with the egg when the areas are mordrem infested, but it made no sense for the Commander to act like they did.

    Caithe taking the literal fate of the world and running away from caves infested with Mordrem is hardly a bad thing, let alone "at her worst". It was the writing forcing a poor reception of Caithe's action that was the worst. Just like with Braham in S3. His reaction to the PC felt unnaturally forced, especially since it got blamed on a humanistic grief over Eir that he had come to terms with at the end of HoT.

    and I disagree with you on that. What Caithe did to W. was special. Incredible stupid and done out of cowardice. Something she hadn't shown before - or after.

    Shocking news, an inexperienced, young Caithe did a rash and stupid move that she pretty much literally regretted her entire life.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    On the other hand, Caithe didn't cause the Pact to be split apart by distrust and infighting and possibly ruin all future efforts.

    Seriously, imagine if that news had become public (Even just to Sylvari) shortly before the fleet launched? It'd ruin the Sylvari's public image (already tarnished in some areas by Scarlet and Nightmare court), possibly cause the pact + major race army reinforcements to split apart or back out.

    Or imagine if suddenly before the fleet launched you saw all the Sylvari pull out, or suddenly start taking extra steps to prepare. While the Sylvari in the pact forces got hit hard by distrust and suspicions, If they had suddenly backed out of the force entirely, or had been seen doing extra tasks/actions then other groups, the Entire Sylvari race could've been hit with accusations of always knowing they were spawns of Mordremoth, and possibly leading the Pact and other races into a trap on purpose to wipe out/enslave them all in their "Fathers" name.

    Yet again, she had about 20 years of time to prepare. Maybe within all that time she could have come up with a way to do that more discretely? No reason to suddenly go public with everything right before the attack started, this could have been handled more intelligently, given the time. The Tree had found a good solution by her own, by having the Dream a a kind of shield against Mordremoth. Maybe Tree and Caithe together could have found a better solution than not doing anything at all.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    Yet again, she had about 20 years of time to prepare. Maybe within all that time she could have come up with a way to do that more discretely? No reason to suddenly go public with everything right before the attack started, this could have been handled more intelligently, given the time. The Tree had found a good solution by her own, by having the Dream a a kind of shield against Mordremoth. Maybe Tree and Caithe together could have found a better solution than not doing anything at all.

    Or maybe not, otherwise they would have done it. They probably spent those years trying to come up with something better but with no success.

    All in all, Caithe does what she believes needs to be done. Same as the others. And sometimes she's wrong. Same as the others. And sometimes it's just a bit too neutral/neutral.

    Is there actually any important NPC that would say "Hey, I believe this is necessary, but I won't do it because honor"?

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    most decisions can be based from amorality. :)

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Nogothanc.5014Nogothanc.5014 Member ✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    and I disagree with you on that. What Caithe did to W. was special. Incredible stupid and done out of cowardice. Something she hadn't shown before - or after.

    Shocking news, an inexperienced, young Caithe did a rash and stupid move that she pretty much literally regretted her entire life.

    Regret as much as you want, she murdered her SISTER because she was too much of a coward to tell Faolain to stop. There is nothing she ever did to redeem that horrible deed.

    She got even "rewarded" to be the nanny of a very important dragon baby. From that point of view you can even go that far and argue that the commander it is totally fine that a murderer is a babysitter.

  • Kashin.7192Kashin.7192 Member ✭✭

    She holds to her own Code very well. I do wish she would confide it to someone though so we understood her a bit more. Again though I have no problem with her Code/Morals, etc because there is the need for the darker character... except for when she stepped on my honor. That was an action that didn't only affected her. Most everything else she has done came back on her.

    Her invention, a navigational tool she had titled "the sextant". The first who laughed at the name found himself unable to speak properly for a week. The instrument had so revolutionized navigation that the city had named a section of the docks after her: Macha's Landing.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Yet again, she had about 20 years of time to prepare. Maybe within all that time she could have come up with a way to do that more discretely? No reason to suddenly go public with everything right before the attack started, this could have been handled more intelligently, given the time. The Tree had found a good solution by her own, by having the Dream a a kind of shield against Mordremoth. Maybe Tree and Caithe together could have found a better solution than not doing anything at all.

    Then you factor in Mordremoth was asleep with zero indication of when he would actually wake up. He was woken early by Scarlet.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    and I disagree with you on that. What Caithe did to W. was special. Incredible stupid and done out of cowardice. Something she hadn't shown before - or after.

    Shocking news, an inexperienced, young Caithe did a rash and stupid move that she pretty much literally regretted her entire life.

    Regret as much as you want, she murdered her SISTER because she was too much of a coward to tell Faolain to stop. There is nothing she ever did to redeem that horrible deed.

    Have you read Caithe's Requiem? Faolain, from very, very early on manipulated and controlled Caithe in an extremely abusive manner that made Caithe unable to really do anything against her.

    Hindsight is a great thing, but at the time Caithe was shoved into a very bad situation, between an abusive, manipulative, controlling girlfriend, and a sister with a secret who if left there, would be beaten and tortured until the secret was revealed.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nogothanc.5014 said:
    @Kashin.7192

    Caithe was an interesting character to me but well... without spoilering you have to play season two. Just in case you dont know. You can play season two with a friend or guild mate. Your character will not be the main but you get the story without paying gems for it.

    Or you know... they could support the game and purchase this pretty reasonably priced bit of DLC.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Have you read Caithe's Requiem? Faolain, from very, very early on manipulated and controlled Caithe in an extremely abusive manner that made Caithe unable to really do anything against her.

    Hindsight is a great thing, but at the time Caithe was shoved into a very bad situation, between an abusive, manipulative, controlling girlfriend, and a sister with a secret who if left there, would be beaten and tortured until the secret was revealed.

    Just for clarification are you saying that its totally fine to murder innocents when the murderer has been abused, manipulated and controlled?

    Caithe had one choice to make. Kill W or finally stand up and stop her amoral lover. Caithe "prefered" to kill an innocent to avoid the confrontation. And thats the point where Caithe lost my sympathy.

    Well and I always disliked the "teenager loves criminal" trope.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nogothanc.5014 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Have you read Caithe's Requiem? Faolain, from very, very early on manipulated and controlled Caithe in an extremely abusive manner that made Caithe unable to really do anything against her.

    Hindsight is a great thing, but at the time Caithe was shoved into a very bad situation, between an abusive, manipulative, controlling girlfriend, and a sister with a secret who if left there, would be beaten and tortured until the secret was revealed.

    Just for clarification are you saying that its totally fine to murder innocents when the murderer has been abused, manipulated and controlled?

    Caithe had one choice to make. Kill W or finally stand up and stop her amoral lover. Caithe "prefered" to kill an innocent to avoid the confrontation. And thats the point where Caithe lost my sympathy.

    Well and I always disliked the "teenager loves criminal" trope.

    No one is saying that it was fine. Only that it's not surprising that people with messed-up brains tend to do messed-up things.

    And isn't it a trope too when a character has pretty much everything pushing them the wrong way, but they still overcome it just because it's oh-so-right? Seen that quite often.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nogothanc.5014 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Have you read Caithe's Requiem? Faolain, from very, very early on manipulated and controlled Caithe in an extremely abusive manner that made Caithe unable to really do anything against her.

    Hindsight is a great thing, but at the time Caithe was shoved into a very bad situation, between an abusive, manipulative, controlling girlfriend, and a sister with a secret who if left there, would be beaten and tortured until the secret was revealed.

    Just for clarification are you saying that its totally fine to murder innocents when the murderer has been abused, manipulated and controlled?

    Caithe had one choice to make. Kill W or finally stand up and stop her amoral lover. Caithe "prefered" to kill an innocent to avoid the confrontation. And thats the point where Caithe lost my sympathy.

    Well and I always disliked the "teenager loves criminal" trope.

    Rather than saying it's "totally fine", rather, I would argue it's understandable. Psychological trauma built over years of manipulation cannot be fought just because of one simple revelation that the person who abused and manipulated you into trusting and depending on is a mean person.

    Wynne knew that Caithe wouldn't be able to overcome that trauma to kill Faolain in such short timespan, and that Faolain were too persistent. That's why Wynne asked Caithe to kill her instead of kill Faolain. Rather than gamble the riskier option, she gambled the more sure option for the sake of her people.

    Caithe isn't innocent, but she's still a victim in that situation as well. She didn't prefer to kill "an innocent" (as questionable as that is) to avoid confrontation. If you think it's so easy to overcome such trauma and manipulation, you probably also blame people for spending away their life savings due to addictions of any kind.

    Also, Caithe's situation isn't a "teenager loves criminal trope". Caithe didn't know Faolain was a manipulative kitten because she hid it at first, and only began to show Caithe the signs when Caithe was dependent on her (aka, during the time of the flashbacks in S2); though earlier lore does tell us that, originally, Faolain wasn't a manipulative kitten but that such began after the two encountered a "darkness" on their travels. Caithe's early story is that of an abuse victim, not a "naive girl loves the bad boy" situation. Though Caithe would certainly have been naive at the time, being only 3-4 years old with no relationship knowledge in the Dream of Dreams to draw from.

    Though with - and since - Season 2, ArenaNet has written Faolain to be worse than she was originally presented, Caithe's reaction is probably the most realistic of all Dragon's Watch / Destiny's Edge member histories (what few we know for the latter...).

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  • Honestly, I realize she had a hard lot in life and everything, she's really been through the wringer

    but one of the most annoying things in the story has been me being told that I trust Caithe now. They pushed this sense of importance onto her with Aurene but I... just still do not trust her.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Rather than saying it's "totally fine", rather, I would argue it's understandable. Psychological trauma built over years of manipulation cannot be fought just because of one simple revelation that the person who abused and manipulated you into trusting and depending on is a mean person.

    I am not saying its totally fine. I was asking a question to clarify what has been said. While I agree in general that mental manipulation and abuse is hard to fight against in a short time I think killing an innocent is more than just one "simple" revelation. When Caithe is willing to kill an innocent than she has reached in my eyes a "point of no return" and just because she cannot "face the truth" does not make her murder right. I think her emotional destabilization is in no way an excuse or a justification for murdering an innocent.

    Wynne knew that Caithe wouldn't be able to overcome that trauma to kill Faolain in such short timespan, and that Faolain were too persistent. That's why Wynne asked Caithe to kill her instead of kill Faolain. Rather than gamble the riskier option, she gambled the more sure option for the sake of her people.

    I think thats a speculation that could be true but we dont know if its true. Anyway what Wynne knew or not knew doesnt matter when we look at the decision Caithe had to face. We know for sure that Wynne presented Caithe another option to get out of the situation.

    Caithe isn't innocent, but she's still a victim in that situation as well. She didn't prefer to kill "an innocent" (as questionable as that is) to avoid confrontation.

    Yes, she is guilty. And yes she is a victim of mental abuse. I reduce the situation she was in to the choice of killing an innocent or confront her amoral lover. Because of her emotional state and the mental abuse and of course the love she had for Faolin and that she is the submissive part in that relationship because of all that she does not want a confrontation with Faolin. She is looking for a way out of that situation. Having these things in mind I repeat and a bit more specific Caithe preferred in that situation in that state of mind and emotions to kill an innocent to avoid the confrontation with Faolin. That Wynne begged to be killed made that decision "easier". And no that does not mean that the decision is easy for her. Both options are bad but in the end she preferred one option over the other and I say because of her history with Faolin she preferred one option to avoid the other.

    If you think it's so easy to overcome such trauma and manipulation, you probably also blame people for spending away their life savings due to addictions of any kind.

    speculation and assumption about what I think and a questionable correlation of two different topics... really? you are smarter than this.

    Also, Caithe's situation isn't a "teenager loves criminal trope". Caithe didn't know Faolain was a manipulative kitten because she hid it at first, and only began to show Caithe the signs when Caithe was dependent on her (aka, during the time of the flashbacks in S2); though earlier lore does tell us that, originally, Faolain wasn't a manipulative kitten but that such began after the two encountered a "darkness" on their travels. Caithe's early story is that of an abuse victim, not a "naive girl loves the bad boy" situation. Though Caithe would certainly have been naive at the time, being only 3-4 years old with no relationship knowledge in the Dream of Dreams to draw from.

    My statement that I dislike teenager loves criminal trope results of the similarity of the following:
    Criminal manipulating the teenager to love him, making her dependant and than making her do what he wants. The emotional and mental influence of the criminal lead to "bad decisions" of the teenager.
    Faolin manipulating Caithe to love her, making her dependant and than making her do what she wants. The emotional and mental influence of Faolin lead to "bad decisions" of Caithe.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The fact that Caithe assists Faolain with genocide and follows her despite how obviously evil she's acting really made me loathe the character. The two's relationship is very forced and poorly explained.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean, for reasons stated, I don't really mind Caithe so much. She's a victim of mental manipulation. If I can ally with the Charr Legions or the people of Lions Arch, who from a society standpoint are basically villain protagonists in a lot of cases, I can stand Caithe.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    The fact that Caithe assists Faolain with genocide and follows her despite how obviously evil she's acting really made me loathe the character. The two's relationship is very forced and poorly explained.

    Did you read her Requiem? It goes into that aspect.

    Also, she came back to see, IIRC, Faolain being attacked by a centaur. And then of course, she's got the choices of a: attack my girlfriend. or B: attack the Centaur who I just saw trying to kill my girlfriend.

    This is also when they were younger, and Caithe did not have the experience or knowledge she later has.

    This is also one of those things Caithe regrets for the rest of her life so... It's not like she treated this as normal at all.

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I mean, for reasons stated, I don't really mind Caithe so much. She's a victim of mental manipulation. If I can ally with the Charr Legions or the people of Lions Arch, who from a society standpoint are basically villain protagonists in a lot of cases, I can stand Caithe.

    Also a point. A persons history doesn't always describe what they do now. LA was refounded by Pirates who actively stole from the Charr Legions, Kryta, and other groups. Yet now have a steady relationship with every government active and is basically the central trade hub of Tyria, also maintaining and guard the roads through the land from Maguuma to the border of Ascalon.

    The Charr Legions have undergone extensive changes, though their history is very dark.

    Caithe's history is dark, but now that she's free of Faolain, she can move upwards.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    Just because she is your mentor doesn't mean she isn't a flawed person. Caithe, at the beginning of the personal story, hasn't resolved or come to terms with many of her character arcs (Destiny's Edge falling apart, Faolin's mind games, the secret that all sylvari are Dragon Minions). Of course she is going to break her word and/or betray her allies if she can justify it was for the greater good... I mean, just look at her actions in LS2.

    That's just who she is.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    Every member of DE is "flawed" some way or another. I do agree that Caithe is one of the better developed characters of this game. However, that does not mean we have to like her or we have to agree with her decisions. Being a well-written character with a personality means people can like or dislike that personality.
    Just as there are RL people whose reasons for actions I can understand, but who I still don't like.

    As for Caithe, as I said, I kind of understand why she acts the way she does. Still, I would not consider her a friend anymore and not want her close. Also, her new sect is super scary.

  • VDAC.2137VDAC.2137 Member ✭✭✭

    I definitely would appreciate having more RP options as to how my characters react to / interact with other characters throughout the stories!

  • Graymalkyn.8076Graymalkyn.8076 Member ✭✭✭

    That type of thing actually happens a number of times for me...Where an NPC does something I disagree with (or at least mt character would), but I'm forced to go along with it because I have no choice. I'd really like to be given more choices along the way, but I understand that that would cause more writing, animation, and expense to Anet so see why they don't. I know they try to show the differences in Vigil, Whispers, and Priory, but it's really kinda vague, and has little bearing in your choices after then end of that story line.

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