[What's the point of Ele?]

1 hour ago, Pimsley.3681 said:

 

Totally agree. There's a build I'm playing that gives me almost perma 90% speed. Damage and sustainability is compromised but it's super fun. Sometimes I even get accused of cheating/hacking. The class has soooo much potential and I really do hope they rework it. 

Haha yea, recently i got acused for being cheater too for playing a fresh air tempest build with a lot of stability and mobility.

[What's the point of Ele?]

16 minutes ago, Pimsley.3681 said:

Awww, I know he blocks people if their names arent familiar to him but Teapot is like a pillar of this community. Wonder what it takes to get on his good side. But he is a REALLY good ele tho despite the class being sub-par at the moment. It's very playable but the effort is quite draining relative to a lot of the classes ppl here complain about. Hope we get a buff. 

 

Also, amulets that sync with the class well have been removed. It feels rather hopeless. 

He is good , i do not deny that just too toxic, i mean he acts like the world is spining aroud him.

 

Anyways back on the topic , i think ele is very fun class to play i am experimenting with different builds and to me it is just very very fun. 

[What's the point of Ele?]

28 minutes ago, Pimsley.3681 said:

 

Skill-wise, he's talented and super legit. He seems like the blunt, no BS kinda guy tho. From the videos, I don't think he's reported me yet as a bot hahaha. But yeah, he's really good and explains things well. I'll give him that. Also, another good ele is Cellofrag. Hope I got the spelling right. 

I didnt watch many of his videos since i saw him AFK at AT , where he play with teapot and complain all the time... He is blocking people just for killing him...

[What's the point of Ele?]

6 hours ago, Pimsley.3681 said:

It's an effortful class to play right now but quite satisfying when you win a node. Try to get some inspiration from Grimjack although he rightfully complains about how much skill it takes to play the ele vs other classes to get similar results. 

I fully agree with you but isnt Grimjack a bit too toxic?

[letter to anet]

7 hours ago, Tinkerer.2167 said:

He is right though, at the top end basically are relying on Teapot tourneys to even have an attempt at taking this game seriously anymore.

Well i disagree with that, mate.

[Low Population]

4 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

low population because the balance is garbage and anet doesnt care.

you think really its the map that matter? the balance now is literally garbage.

i barely say this, but this time it's real.

 

all the plat people i know doesnt really care about new map and they stop playing because the meta is literally hot garbage.

Play something else then

[letter to anet]

4 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

anet fix your game, top end is dead and nobody likes to play anymore

 

Speak for your self please.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

28 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

There is no difference between continuous time and discrete time. You chop up continuous time into discrete packets to analyze the system at any given moment in time, and analyzing the change of the system at each discrete time gives you the continuous solution. That doesn't need to be clarified...

 

And the balance cadence of Anet doesn't effect your ability to make a calculation on the dynamics of the system. You'll always get a solution.

 

If you are asking whether A>B>C>D is an analysis of a system through time, then yes, it is. This representation is discrete, and you can analyze it continuously using the discrete solution. 

 

I have to disagree here.

There is a significant difference between continuous and discrete domains.

discrete domain  is a set of input values that consists of only certain numbers in an interval.

continues domain is a set of input values that consists of all numbers in an interval.

discrete function is  function with distinct and separate values (meaning the values of the functions are not connected to each other)

continuous function can take any value within a curtain interval 

Continues function always connects its values while discrete function has separations ...

Ofcourse you can transfer continues function in discrete one , but they are not the same thing

[so what if barrier disappeared after 3 sec instead of 5]

13 minutes ago, Filip.7463 said:

That u can have more hit points that game is designed to since u can have 100% hp + 50% barrier

How is that a problem? This is temporary efect as invunurability for example 

[We have a lovely community]

36 minutes ago, DanSH.6143 said:

True, the PvE community in GW2 is the best I've ever seen in an mmo.

In PvP it's just a loud minority, but it's still worse than any other game I played including mobas.

In my opinion Anet doesn't do enough to ban these toxic players, atleast from pvp. If you've been reported several times for match manipulation (such as afking intentionaly), you should atleast get a month long ban from pvp.

That is far from true in my opinion, the community in wow pvp is way worse in LoL too and many other pvp games.

 

 

Every competitive pvp has toxic environment gw2 is not special in that regard , to be honest the toxicity level is acutally on the lower end of my personal experience from all of the games i have played.

[so what if barrier disappeared after 3 sec instead of 5]

57 minutes ago, Filip.7463 said:

What if all barrier traits/skills in pvp were transformed into healing?

May i ask you why exactly all barrier skills/traits need to be changed? I mean what exactly is the problem with barrier?

[Proposed Name Changes For Superior Rune Of The Trapper]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I think the root of the problem is that stealth isn't very well implemented in this game. 

Complitely agree with this the way it works promote uninteractive gameplay

[Is the 11k health full glass cannon DH longbow Trapper build op?]

1 hour ago, DanSH.6143 said:

So Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are uninteractive too?

In terms of dmg from stealth, zerker DH is the least offender, as it will mostly use True Shot when Spear of Justice is applied to the target, which reveals the DH. The traps are decent but they don't 1 Shot anyone, if you're talking about Dragon's Maw, Zerk DH doesn't use it.

Not exactly but as i said , dh is not overpowered in my opinion, and i am very well aware of how dh works i play it my self sometime and yes thief , mesmer and ranger (depend on the build) are also uninteractive. Why do you think they are nerfed so much.

 

Thief and mesmer are the most hated classes because they are uninteractive.

 

Please dont get me wrong i dont want to procced in discussing about the mechanics of the DH, because i am on your side and i am against Trevor's crusade against trapper rune.

 

 

[Is the 11k health full glass cannon DH longbow Trapper build op?]

47 minutes ago, DanSH.6143 said:

The poll is meant as a joke. But what's uninteractive about them?

Damaging from stealth that uninteractive , getting 1 shoted by invisible traps also

[Is the 11k health full glass cannon DH longbow Trapper build op?]

46 minutes ago, Liewec.2896 said:

i used to play oneshot zerker trapper back when dragon maw did damage.

but now its just not worth the 11k hp.

other classes do more damage while sitting on 20k hp full zerker.

Not exactly 

 

https://youtu.be/QxWpd4azgxg

[Is the 11k health full glass cannon DH longbow Trapper build op?]

Its not OP just uninteractive, but atlest make a fair poll

[so what if barrier disappeared after 3 sec instead of 5]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

would this be too big of a nerf, or not do anything? seems like barrier is overperforming in all game modes except maybe pve where tis meh. timing should always be important and i think barrier support should be more reaction based. i would think a few cds would need shaved and some barrier amount skills be buffed slightly. 

This would affect also other builds which use barrier as fire weaver, engi healbreaker and e.t.c, and they are fine in my opinion, so i think this change is not the right one since the problem is scourge specifically not barrier in general.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

20 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

We keep pushing for builds to get nerfed and removed so that we can level the playing field, but, Ironically... I think the game was more balanced before the Feb Patch dropped, when the outcries about "power creep" were loud and clear. 

 

I know what people are going to say. "Are you really defending pre-nerf holo? Sidenode staff mirage? evade spam weaver? Boonbeast that could spam every boon in the game with permenant uptime, Degen staff daredevil that took a minimum of 20 seconds to kill if they properly chained their evades, scourge and firebrand running rampant, power herald?..."

 

Yes! You could, for good reason, make the argument that every one of these builds were broken, but pay attention to what I just did there. I was able to effortlessly name a build for every class that was not only strong, but a legitimate threat to the meta, capable of duking it out with some of the strongest builds out there. 

 

It didn't matter what class you played, if there was an outlier build running rampant that you wanted to contend with, you had a build, often, multiple builds on your class that could go toe to toe with them. 

 

The balance came from each of these powerful builds checking one another. It was great, It was fun. Combat was punishing if you didn't ration your dodges properly, but once you learned how it was like watching a delicate dance between two skilled players. 

 

And yes, there was certainly room for build craft. Arguably more than there is now. You had more amulets to work with. You didn't have entire traitlines with traits nerfed to unplayability, you had fewer butchered weapons. (Remember when druid's staff 3 still evaded, and druid pets had 100% of their damage?).

 

I don't see how what we have now is better, outside of the fact the fact that combat is less punishing. 

 

 

 

 

I didnt experianced the pre 2020 patch combat, but from what i heard about it it was too bursty (please correct me if i am wrong) ... I have tryed gw2  at the begining of 2016 and i remeber back then what drove me off was again the combat being too bursty. What i am trying to say is too bursty combat is very unfriendly to new people and often they leave before even learn as i did back in 2016. The current state gave me the chance to learn and have fun while doing so. Please dont get me wrong since i dont have experiance druing the period you are talking about i am not saying which is better or not, just saying that if it was as some people describe it (too bursy) then that probably is not much better than bunker meta

 

I definitely agree that removal of options and amulets is not the right way.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

2 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

 

My reply was to it working on a local scale from your comment but the rest is all referencing Justice not you, sorry for not being clear on that.

 

 

Yes and this is exactly why my initial post I was pushing Justice to explain their use of a term and definition in context and state what the constent was explicitly.
 

 

I don't think anyone has really disagreed about the basic premise too much other than it being too simplistic, missing multiple factors and that we're not accounting for ANet being able to at a whim change anything they want, adding, removing or straight up changing relationships in certain ways exclusively for an exception.

got it, thank you very much for clarifying i was a bit confused.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

4 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Right exactly.

 

Whatever was suppressing prot-holo before or whatever relationships have formed since then have brought prot holo back into the spot light from where it was to where it is now...and I guess this goes full circle back into what the OP's thread was really about, which is "Where did prot-holo come from?" and it's cause almost everything is basically connected to everything else. 

Exactly!

The removal of mender/marshal amulets which targeted self sustain of support builds as scrouge and support guardian actually affected duelist builds as weaver and decap druid which need the healing power much more than prot holo to survive , now when the self sustein is reduced prot holo got "unintended buff" , because it does not count that much on healing power to survive.

[So when will this rly good patch finaly come?]

1 minute ago, Exile.8160 said:

I get scourge and Holo but trapper rune dh? It has 11k hp and no mobility outside of f2 take the rune away and DH dies completly.

I think people dont like it because the rune makes DH very uninteractive..

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

12 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

  

 

I'm gonna address this here because this discussion is finally now making progress. @Math.5123 introduced a very important concept (symbiosis) which is one of the key things behind how balance in diversity is supposed to work... but it's used in such a logically fallacious way to abuse the concept, and support the counter argument that removing things fixes diversity...again this comment sounds "logical" but there's a logical inconsistency here....that if removing things from a system was the most efficient way to produce diversity, then why does anything exist at all. The reason is because the example used by Math here is basically statistically unlikely to happen, and that unlikeliness goes up the more things there are in a system and I'll explain why this is the case in detail : 

 

First thing : Symbiosis doesn't mean B,C and D are equal. It means that one thing, is dependent on the survival of another thing. A good example are sucker fish stuck to sharks. Sucker fish are not equal to sharks...they actually depend on their survival in order to survive themselves, and gw2 works in the same way. The presence of Scourge, is dependent on the presence of a Deadeye or PP thief...too many PP thieves, and Scourges go extinct. Too many scourges, and more thieves will appear. Remove or nerf one or the other, and the equilibrium of that relationship get's interrupted.

 

The behavior of symbiosis is far from simple, they are highly complex. So for example, Scourge and thief live in some kind of equilibrium.. Many thieves start to appear, and in response, many guardian's appear to protect the scourge 's from the thieves. In addition PP thieves' invoke classes that have reflections to come about, so scrappers start appearing. In this example,  The existence of scrapper, is dependent on PP thief, which is dependent on scourges, which are dependent on guardian, and all 4 are now connected and they depend on each other for their existence. 

 

If you were to look at this system in isolation of just Thief and Scourge, one would immediately assume that thief is an apex predator, and the meta hierarchy takes the form of A>B. This is a mistake at looking at the system in isolation... when looking at the system as a whole, it looks like this; A>B>C>D where all 4 are in symbiotic equilibrium.

 

So upsetting the equilibrium of highly complex relationships between these things, can change the system in completely unpredictable ways, and it's not always certain whether you actually increase local diversity, completely ruin it or change nothing at all with a balance change.

 

So when Math puts forth the concept of A suppressing the equilibrium of B C and D, he's kind of abusing the situation in which, A has no symbiotic relationships of it's own....It can happens but it's statistically unlikely that things ever not have some kind of relationship with some other things. The net effect on a system when you remove an element, just lowers diversity overall because somewhere the diversity increases, and somewhere else the diversity decreases through the loss and gain of these symbiotic relations, and by contrast, the introduction of elements into a system does the opposite, it just makes diversity higher overall for the same reasons....In both cases the net effects of adding or removing relationships through symbiosis are essentially statistically equal. This is one of the key components of anthropic reasoning...the more stuff you have, the more symbiotic relationships there can be, the more balance there is through the forming of symbiotic relationships. In contrast, the less stuff you have, the less symbiotic relationships there can be, the less balance there is, and you get more situations like Math's example, because they become statistically more likely as the system gets smaller.

 

It's the same idea that when an outlier exists, the more counters to that outlier exists, and so that outlier is statistically more likely to be silenced because there are more things in the system. By contrast, in a system with less things, when an outlier exists, there are less counters to that outlier that exist, and statistically it's less likely to be silenced because there are less things in the system.

 

 

I agree with all that. Thats why i said the both of you are right, but arguing for different things


 

Quote

It's the same idea that when an outlier exists, the more counters to that outlier exists, and so that outlier is statistically more likely to be silenced because there are more things in the system. By contrast, in a system with less things, when an outlier exists, there are less counters to that outlier that exist, and statistically it's less likely to be silenced because there are less things in the system.

 

This is exactly why prot holo became meta duelist currently (the builds which kept it in check got nerfed). 

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

15 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

You said on page 3 that you thought Justice was being overcomplicated, this isn't correct, s/he isn't being complicated enough and simplifying to a horrifying extent. The snide remarks and arrogance doesn't help either.

 

This formula works on a micro scale when looking at as few dimensions as possible however GW2 has a high number of dimensions and complexity scales with this.There are a lot of factors missing from these calculations like the skills value as part of a build as well as skill requirement to utilise while also ignoring the complexity of working out these values themselves. You can write it as an expression that A_s is skill however we're glossing over the complexity of actually working this out and applying it.

 

This is without touching anything else that could be a factor in the overarching system such as interpretation of game balance, fairness, ability to monitize, stakeholder expectations, customer expectations and aesthetics to name a few rolling off the top of my head.

 

Finally, here's something to think about and not reply to. If the math was as easy as you seem to think don't you think Arena Net with over a decade of game experience would have figured it out? Don't you think other games companies would?

I am wondring where the arrogance came from? If i sounded arrogant please excuse me that was not the point at all.

Look like i didnt chose the right words to explain my self, let me try again please. I never said nor claimed that balancing is easy, nor that there is simple formula to it. If i left that feeling in you i am sorry that was not my intend. 

What i tried to say is that sometimes Justice is overcomplicating his explanations on some simple topics and not using the correct words to describe his point, which leads very often to him not being understood correctly as it happend in this thread again. 

I agree with almost everything which Justice is saying and we had pretty big discussion with him on balance too, i disagree with him on just few minor things which i have stated. If you readed my other posts too you would see that

[Why reviving speed is actually kitten]

6 minutes ago, DanSH.6143 said:

Tempest Aura Share is very viable in this meta.

The synergy between guardian and scourge is better imo thats why they are played a bit more i believe, but my point is tempest has a ress same as guardian, so why you target only guardians signet? Also warrior has banner...

But this abilities has pretty long CD so i think they are fine and the problem is more in the ress healing it self and scourge tankiness while doing so than in this skills.

[Why reviving speed is actually kitten]

1 hour ago, DanSH.6143 said:

Just my opinion - I think reviving speed is fine in most cases, the only spec that seems to be reviving not only fast but most successfully is Bunker Scourge, and Core Support guard second.

I think these two builds need their reviving abilities toned down as right now, having both in a team fight makes fights extremely long and exhausting as players keep getting revived on both sides.

I'm not sure how Scourge could be appropriately toned down in this regard so I don't have any suggestions, but I think Core Guard's rezz signet could be toned down by either 1 of the following options:

- least probable option as it would make it more distinct from its PvE version: Make it so you can't move while casting the signet, making it more noticeable and harder to pull off.

- Another good solution would be make the animation more noticeable and increase the sound cue as well.

- Increase the cooldown.

- increase the cast time.

 

Healbreaker and support tempest both can revive pretty well too, tempest can revive while immune, just this 2 are not that viable at the current meta.

 

I dont think guard signet need to be nerfed. It pretty obvious that the support guardian is going to yry to use it if his aly goes down and a big simbol over his head appears when he do.