[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

22 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

There's no logical consistency behind making a distinction between viable and non-viable, when those things are contained in the inequality already. 

 

A>B>C>D.

A is viable, D is the least viable.

A is the most selected for, D is the least selected for.

if A through D are all the objects in the system, then it describes the meta hierarchy of that system.

 

Well its better to have 3 viable and 1 dead , instead of having 1 supreme and 3 dead classes, so what Math is saying is pretty logical, but again it just on local scale

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

8 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

Judging by how I've phrased myself during all of my posts, it's painstakingly clear that I meant diversity of viable options and not of possible options. 

Same can be said about Justice posts, yet again you both are arguing for 2 different points, as was stated by Kuma too

[Anet, wtf?]

3 minutes ago, Kreths.8457 said:

 

Precise and elegant way to say this pvp is s***.

ehmmm... no

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

6 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

No. Because A gatekeeps BCD, meaning only A is relevant. BCD can live in a symbiosis and gatekeep A, then we have a 300% increase in what is viable. I don't understand how this is even a discussion still. 

Again that will increase the diversity of viable option, but will not affect the diversity of possible options. You are talking about diversity of viable options , while Justice is talking about diversity of possible options (viable or not). And in my opinion this is where the whole miscommunication is coming from. You 2 are just speaking about 2 different things.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

10 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

It just seems blindingly obvious to me that Math was referring to diversity of viable options, not diversity of possible options, and therefore your rebuttal to him has no basis.

Thats why i specifically said that agreed with him in my first post to him , but also mentioned that there is also different point of view. Because Justice is referring the diversity of possible options while Math is referring the diversity of viable options and non of them specify exactly of which is speaking of.

So my whole point was that both of them are right, but speaking for different things.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

7 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

And what good is diversity if there is 1 build which is clearly superior to all others?

 

You're conflating the diversity of "possible" options with diversity of "viable" options. These are not synonymous, and it is possible to increase one while decreasing the other.

Please read my previous post.

I never said that this is good. 

"You're conflating the diversity of "possible" options with diversity of "viable" options. These are not synonymous, and it is possible to increase one while decreasing the other."

No i am not , Math is not specifying the diversity which he speaks of, while i do specifically say the diversity of the game  (possible options). And in my previous post to Math i said that i agree with him if he speaks about diversity of viable options (just with other words).

I understand completely that you are affected by Justice and your fight with him, but i am the wrong person to go on. Since i also agree with you that nerfs and bufs are not meaningless and i supported your claim in the previous thread

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

7 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

Removed from viability, just like BC and D currently is. The option remains, only lower on the food chain.

Okay, yet that does not bring more diversity to the game just shift the viability of the options which are already there.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

4 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

As stated, I said I didn't mean delete literally. I meant it figuratively. It will still be an option to play, only it won't be an alpha predator. 

excuse me, my bad then.

 

Quote

Removing something, can lead to more diversity. 

Then you understand that this was not used correctly right? since you dont remove it but adjust it

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

3 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

Nice try, trying to put my comments in a vacuum thus not conveying the obvious sarcastic tone it had to it. 

Let me explain those two comments, in the name of diversity of course. 

The one about dh is sarcastic because of Trevor's crusade against the one rune that keeps the spec somewhat viable. The second comment about deleting unhealthy builds, leads to more diversity. 

 

Say you nerf dp thief and renegade today right? Other roamers would see the light of day. You're potentially going to see sic'em ranger, FA weaver,  power mirage and core guardian. So by killing a few, you give birth to many. Thus leading to the diversity, you so crave. It has nothing to do with having to prove myself having a big enough "e-peen".

 

Let's put this into two real life scenarios, first a hypothetical one. Then a real one. 

Say you introduce a tyranus rex into the modern day ecosystem. While on paper it would increase the amount of species in any designated place, it would over time absolutely destroy the biodiversity of said biome, if the rex will thrive. 

Take modern day Portugal, Asian murder wasps was introduced to its ecosystem by mistake through a fruit delivery a year and a half something ago. These are much bigger, much more aggressive than the bees that have existed there for 100s of years. It has now killed a lot of those bees, leading in shortage of pollination and its slowly but surely killing off plants and other insects that relied on pollinating in order to survive. 

 

You can continue trying to solve everything as a mathematic equation if you'd like. But if you see how things actually work, in the world and in the game. You would stop spouting the nonsense that you have for the past 2 days. 

 

Removing something, can lead to more diversity. 

If i understand correctly what are you saying (please correct me if i am wrong) , you are saying that if we have classes A,B,C,D

and A >>>> B>C>D , meaning A is much much more stronger than anything other, and you delete A you will see more play by B,C,D because A was just suppressing them so you will have more diversity. That is right on local scale, but on global one its not because you are deleting option from the game so making the game less diverse overall. If you tone down A to acceptable levels or bring other 3 up you will have more diversity without deleting things from the game. While i dont agree with @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 that nerfs or buffs are meaningless , he is right that with deleting things from the game your are not making the game more diverse , but less.

Also as far as i am aware there are 2 common types of balance used in games;

1. A=B=C=D= .... =Z - balance through equity;
2. A->B->C->D-> ... ->Z->A - balance through everything having counter

-> is used as sign showing which counters which not as bigger/greater value (A counters B counters C and so on)

Option 1 everything is same so no diversity at all,

Option 2 can bring a lot of diversity.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

34 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

This is a strange discussion lol. You have two sides arguing completely separate points. Neither side is technically wrong. Neither side technically refutes the other. 

 

If I had to sum up the root of the misunderstanding...

 

[Several people] are not asking for a balanced game. Rather, the mindset is similar to the mindset Blizzard had a while back when they began the great prune. "Bring the class not the player", and they achieved this not by making all things equal but by squishing things together so that classes were close enough together in power that the gains one would have by bringing A over B were insubstantial. 

 

If you were really obsessed with min maxing, A would technically be the superior choice, but the advantages of chosing A would be so small, players, even the hardcore, could simply play what they want. 

 

Justice on the other hand is making a completely separate argument, that the only way to make all classes equal is to make them carbon copies of one another. No amount of numerical buffs and nerfs can achieve perfect balance. By extension, even achieving a game state where classes are close together in power is difficult. This is because of the vast number of variables you have to consider

 

 If you do decide to try balancing the game in this manner, diversity will be sacrificed. This is unavoidable. 

 

There is a distinct lack of hand-drawn charts this time around, but he does provide evidence/reasoning for why this happens. 

 

The disconnect comes from the fact that Several players here don't necessarily care much about diversity (In relation to this discussion at least), there is a higher priority in creating what is, as close as possible to, an equal playing field. It doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough that you don't kitten yourself for picking one class over another. 

 

Justice holds diversity as a high priority in terms of what the game should promote, and argues that point in great detail. Two entirely separate values. Two related, but separate arguments. 

 

 

Finaly! I was writing the same summary when notification poped with your post.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

9 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I did click the link actually and I do understand however you're still not getting it.

 

Your definition of relative is only applicable in YOUR niche.

 

Is it sinking in? Guild Wars 2 does not rely on that 2 or more things vary in order to keep a constant. In other words to simplify it for you.

 

In Guild Wars 2 sometimes 2+3 = 5 then sometimes 6-1 = 4, this is not constant as the goal of balance is not to keep a constant.

 

Edit: I know the above sounds stupid, because it sort of is but I have to use the analogy given. ANet writes the rules, controls the game, sets the standards.

 

 

6 - 1 = 4 ... What?

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

26 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I didn't ignore what you said, I clearly just don't understand what you must be trying to say. I'm literally applying it in front of you with a huge paragraph of text and you are denying it's applicable, and you can do the application yourself and get the same answer. I don't get that. the notion of being relative and relations are very basic mathematical constructs. They apply to basically everything, and I think you just don't have a clear understanding of what a relation is.

 

You mention here in this comment, An analogy, which breaks down roughly to the following: that a physicist walks into a bar and tries to explain to the bartender how his beer is made from a physics standpoint. What I'm failing to understand from you, is how the above isn't logical...it's perfectly logical for me to tell you how beer is made in accordance with physics...I'm telling you how diversity is made in accordance with evolutionary biology, the most diverse system we know of that exists. 

 

 

 

Hey mate,

 

 

 

Excuse me for entering the discussion , but what both @apharma.3741 and @Eugchriss.2046

are trying to say is that you are explaining simple stuff in a bit overcomplicated way , because of which many people are not getting your point. Correct me if i am wrong.

 

Please dont get me wrong , i mean no offence to you at all and i understand and agree with what you are explaining, just it can be simplified as @Eugchriss.2046 did.

 

 

 

 

[Anet, wtf?]

21 minutes ago, gebrechen.5643 said:

It's not even the salty environment. I was playing all morning and meanwhile I know all the bots by name. I'm not even giving a kitten about rating right now. I lost 23 points in the last match that we lost 83:502 (while I had most kills and caps on thief) while the rest of my team couldn't win a 4v2 on mid vs 2 core guardian bots.

 

The easy solution to stop that kitten  the majority of this is to lock all pvp rewards behind rating or take them out and make f2p accounts not able to get into ranked. These bots and players are there because Anet gives a ton of gold and loot for being afk/botting in competitive pvp. Sure, they never reach gold or above, but they reach 100g, tons of exotics and materials.

If I'd play this for competition I had rage-quit after my first ten matches.

ah i understand what you mean. Excuse me. 

Locking free accounts from pvp wont solve the issue, many of the bots are playing elite specs. 

[Anet, wtf?]

59 minutes ago, gebrechen.5643 said:

After not stepping into pvp since season 8 and now trying I really believe everything. It's impossible to have a "half way" useful team on the lower rankings. It feels 50% of the players are bots or not sure what else.

And I really can't blame them when Anet stuffs pvp'ers pockets with gold for chests (compared to WvW rewards) and the completely useless ELO-system that can't work with a low player base like that.
That gold must be compensation for the salt mines players have to go through while trying to rank up.

 

Salt reflect on you only if you allow it .... Play for fun and the rank will come.

I mean every competitive pvp  game/mode has toxic/salty environment. People prefer to be salty and blame others because its easy, try to not pay attention to such people and move on to the next match.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

2 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I know, if expressed as a ratio, but you really should state as such before making such a statement and it isn't the norm outside of certain fields.

Its not my statement and i agree with you, just pointing out that in the context of which he use it is also correct.

[Where Did Prot Holo Come From?]

5 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Gonna need a fact check on this one, last I heard relative has nothing to do with keeping something constant, it is the judging of something in comparison to another.

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/relative

You are generally right, but to be fair it can also be used in the context of which @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 is using it

[Class switching before match start]

8 minutes ago, Spartacus.3192 said:

people have been asking for prevention of class switching for years. ANET held a vote and "This Community" said no. So we can't blame ANET, blame the players who voted.

 

Meanwhile enjoy the "manipulation" which isn't manipulation because ANET specifically addressed the issue and submitted to the will of the players to allow it. 

 

Only thing that ANET could do is do another poll/vote. 

Yes i didn't knew about that when i posted my suggestion but 1 more person also mentioned that poll. Thank for the info tho. 

 

 

I am not blaming Anet for anything, in fact i am supporting them becuase in my opinion gw2 is a great mmorpg as is, so i am just sharing my opinion and giving a suggestion on something which might be improved.

[What exactly are necromancers doing?]

7 hours ago, Sinolai.3860 said:

Just a question about necromancers since I have noticed they are the most unpredictable profession you come across in pvp. They can burst you down in 2-3 second or tank you for half a minute. I am playing a mesmer myself.

 

Question 1: Tanky necros hp bar turns green and once it reach 0, the hp bar turns normal again and starts from exactly the point before you "killed" them. What is this green hp bar? how does it work? how long it lasts? what are its benefits and what are its penalties?

Side note: The green HP bar seems indentical on enemy and friendly necro which makes it sometimes hard to tell which is which.

 

Question 2: Bursty necro seems to fill your status bar with conditions just before you explode and if you dont die instantly they try to stand on you and spam spin to win. The conditions are troublesome since even if you manage to escape from necro's reach the dots usually takes you down if you cant purge them. What skill combos are necros using to apply so many debuffs and how do people usually cleanse/avoid them? is there some conditions that I could use to minimize the damage from them (eg. not attacking/not moving/moving before X happens)? So far the best trick I have used to survive has been using Arcane Thievery as soon as I see the debuffs applied and then blink away and swap to staff to kite the necro.

Hello mate,

 

Necro is very predictable and simple , but strong class.

 

The "second hp bar" is called shroud this is necro specific mechanic which works on core necro and reaper. When necro enter shroud their lifeforce is used istead of their real hp and thats the main necro defensive , since it dont have any invunurable , block abilities.

 

The necro has a trait which gets conditions from their allies when they enter shroud and they can also transfer conditions to enemies with the first hit after entering shroud. The "spin to win" ability is reaper shroud 4 which is very hard hiting ability and should be avoided. If you want to learn more about necro i will be happy to share with you my knowledge about it and show you how to fight against it in game, so if you are interested drop me a pm ingame.

 

Have a great day!

[Anet needs to fix this gamemode]

7 hours ago, VoidNard.7206 said:

Compare the PvE population vs PvP population and you can see how successful it really is

In every mmorpg the pve population is much much higher than the pvp one. That does not make the pvp "objectively" bad, its niche.

[Anet needs to fix this gamemode]

"objectively" ....

[Class switching before match start]

11 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

i kinda disagree a major issue is the game has no set roles. to ensure the your teams balanced... like walking into a team of 3 mirages a thief and a Soulbeast is obvious Set up for disaster and if u remove peoples ability to fix that ur leaving peoples winrates on complete RNG.

 

its important players can co-ordinate to give themselves the best chance of winning.

Hi,

Thats a fair point as was discussed in this thread. My main concern is that with class changing the matchmaking system can be manipulated.

After the first phase of the match making algorithm (MMR sorting) the second phase is trying to prevent class stacking and also match the classes used in both of the teams in order to balance the match (for example if team A has 2 mesmers it will try also to put 2 mesmers in team B) and at the lower rating up to plat1 the match making system is doing very good job at it because there are many players around same MMR. But when you class change after that match making is done the balance which the matchmaking system achieved is ruined. At higher rating this problem is not seen that much because there are much less ppl with close MMR so the match making system cannot balance the teams that well (in terms of classes) and there the class changing is helping out if you are placed in loosing matchup. So i understand that my suggestion is not best because it will create a problem specially at higher rating, but still the match making can and is being exploited to gain advantage in balanced teams. Also swapping just before the match starts leave no room for adapting by your enemy team which can give good advantage to your team.

An example how the system can be manipulated: Get in duo queue as double warrior  or mesmer , then the system will try to match your enemy team to have also double warrior or mesmer and just before the match starts you can switch to better classes. This i see happening a lot around g2/p1 rating and i think it should be addressed in my opinion. 

Thats why it was suggested in the thread that when you sign up you also can specify classes on which you can switch so the match making system can do its job properly without being shunted.

 

[Class switching before match start]

1 hour ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

Did you? All the parameters only state profession count... where does it say profession weight or something similar? Where do you see it adds a value to a specific class? 

 

The only thing it does is prefent class stacking.

 

As i said, it wouldnt make sense if they did either. Since some professions have top AND bottom tier builds. So you wouldnt be able to play anything besides the top tier builds since according to you matchmaking would see you as if you play top tier meta even if you played for example firebrand (bottom tier). 

Read it again then and try to use your brain. You can also read the pseudo code too.

 

"The metrics used during this phase include: rating, rank, games played, party size, profession, and dishonor. With each metric the system is looking for players that are as close as possible to the average of those already selected. The system also attempts to keep the number of duplicate professions to a minimum."

 

It tryes to match the players already selected so if the selected team has 2 mesmers in it , the algorithm will try to find also 2 mesmers with similar rating for the enemy team and ONLY if there are no mesmers with close score it will take another classes

I am done talking to you since in my opinion you are just refusing to see the obvious issue and not bringing anything constructive to the conversation.

I agreed with your point that class switching is needed at high rating because there is more unlikely to have ppl with close mmr and same classes, but still the algorithm is exploitable and could be improved to solve the issue i am pointing out and if you are unable to see it then i dont have anything more to discus with you

Have a great night and be healthy!

[Class switching before match start]

21 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

You totally misread the entire thing. Look at the configuration to see what it does. 

 

It tries to prefent classstacking as much as possible.  Thats all it does when it comes to differentiating professions.  

 

Youre making it sound as if professions are rated based on strength and thats tied to the MMR algorithm. This is not the case tho.

 

 

 

Sure mate, what ever you say.

 

You didnt event knew that it takes proffesions under consideration, but i am the one misreading it...

 

Did you read all of the parameters and their description?

[Class switching before match start]

1 hour ago, Tinkerer.2167 said:

Because context exists

Mhm .... Ooookay

[Class switching before match start]

31 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

locking professions but allowing build swapping would be totally fine

That is exactly my suggestion