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and that is why the planetside 2 system come in. all territory are linked . (like in TESO too in fact). to capture a territory it need to be linked to your starting base.see here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1250370 but if even both 2nd and 3rd server united can't even take out the 1rst one then the problem isn't the new point system.the 3rd may not always stay 3rd as it can night cap or cap when other servers are not that dominant to make points and maybe beat the current 1rst one even if temporary.the current point system need to be changed anyway.

in reality the 3rd server smash the 2nd one to get more easy points as they usually have no chance at defeating the 1rst place. and if they help the 2nd for him to get 1st then it will never be first.so the 3rd tries to be 2nd and the first just focus everyone. a change in the point system (only the 1rst team in terms of territory control would get points. so that the 2nd and 3rd will have to get 1st to get points. no more ganking up on the 2nd place anymore and the 1rst server will have to actually try and keep the first place.) and a territory control system like the one in planetside 2 could fix alot of things. people are afraid of changes, but WvW need those changes.

well, bus are bigger and roaming or small groups are fewer.it is harder to pull off 1v2 or outnumbered than before.bus wil often chase you with mounts so you can't escape unless you play thief.you have less of an impact against large group or bus than before.scouting, if considered as a part of roaming, is kinda dead.very hard to find other roamers to play as a group with. overall individual skills is getting weaker.golden age of duels (random roamers 1v1 spontaneous events) is long dead. no one in obsidian sanctuary. barely any solo roamers to meet up and deuls with.which is a shame as it pushed players to improve their dueling skills without having to use cheesy builds that tries to one shot you or fly very far away to reset the fight is failed. i woulod say that the overall quantity and quality of roamers have decreased alot with time (just like escorters and scouts.)you almost see only bus nowerdays. with some little guild raid on prime time and some group of players with cheesy hit and run builds.

@Obtena.7952 you can't see out of the box.WvW HAD intended strategic play. but each patch leads to the destruction of diversity for the sake of being more (new?) player friendly.you have now WvW players wanting to just follow their beloved commander without the annoyance of getting killed by gankers... in a mass pvp environment.you want a dumbed down WvW.nerfing overall damage (without any other rework on boons, downedstate etc... blablabla...read my precedent posts) encourage nothing but more bus fights which are the most braindead fights of any fights you could have in WvW. PvP? so a game mode that actively promote point capping to win the match and get better reward which in turns promote bunkering down points is more of a player fighting each others gamemode for you than a WvW were you actually attack and defend castles with siege engines and go 80v80v80 where winning or loosing because of territory control gives actually no reward is less about fighting and more about how to take over the map to earn more points? is WvW a PvE map to you? let actually WvW players decide what they would actually want for their gamemode instead of, you, not a WvW player, pushing your ideals or understanding onto us.but hey, the more WvW veteran leave WvW the more it will be filled with WvW wanabee PvE players. it is by no means an insult. what i am saying is that i feel like WvW is getting changed for the PvE croud to accomodate better to this gamemode so that WvW would actually attract them into playing WvW. which in turn make them the bigger voice in changing WvW into what they like most which is, what i fear, not really what us, old WvW players or those who came there to fight, really wanted or expected when playing WvW.you can be a good example of that. your understanding of WvW is limited to its description, like you would read a raid strat or an event objective and do exactly what you are told to. because it is how the event or the raid is meant to be played. you have a very PvE mindset. (not to be taken as an insult. just a way of thinking)if i follow your thoughts, duels should not exist in WvW. it is an abberation that does not fit into the rules of WvW right?don't worry, duels are dying too. mark my words, promoting bus in WvW over anything else will transform WvW into EOTM.i will let at your own discretion the luxury to interpret that as you want.

your assumption is false and by saying that you are just ignoring all the arguments i threw at you in our several days long discussion.also this change don't directly incite players to play bus but make it harder to small groups or roamers to deal with a bus or larger group than them which in the end benefit the bus or the larger group.you are only looking at the damage reduction and not at the rest.downedstate are a bit longer to finish with dps. harder to 1v2 because it takes a bit longer to kill thus leaving room for a +1 or not being able to deal with downstate properly.it takes even longer to kill a player under protection, stab and regen. (boonball, remember?)bunker builds will be even more bunkier.bunker meta is fucking boring and that's part of what killed gw2 ESL. the question is, why are you so adament on what WvW should be when i, a WvW player (yes that is the gw2 gamemode i play the most), see things very differently than you while you, doesn't seem like a WvW player as you don't seem to understand WvW current problems.i repeat myself but, your ideal WvW with only bus running around to cap everything while avoiding over bus to take the most structures was on EOTM map, and it is dead now. keep that in mind. when WvW will become as interesting as PvE it will die for good. you know, smallscale fight with small groups vs small groups kinda benefit from less overall damage. even 1v1 are more fun that way. the problem is the outnumbered situation (which happens alot.) 1v2... 10 v 20... small group vs bus... and this si not only a problem because of population difference between server but also becasue you kill any fight strategy. just run the meta build, bunker down and let the number do the damage. it is super effective.but yeah, for you WvW is not about fight but about territory control. which wont happens if there is no fights. like i said, every games that have this WvW setup is all about fights, with territory control as a pretext to get fights. kill fights and you will have only PvE players playing WvW.see? i am repeating myself. you should speak about that to other people than me see what they think about all this (again, repeating myself.)i am but one voice. seek the others and come back to me. we will see if you will have the same opinion then.

at this point one could assume you are trolling.i have enough hours in WvW to have my own opinions. of course some people will agree and other wont. that is irrelevant since those who will agree are mostly duelers, roamers or players that don't often or like playing i large bus. and at the same time the ones who will mostly disagree with me are players who moslty plays in bus.i am not here to try and prove my point by using numbers but arguments.roaming and such dying in profite of bus is something that started to happens years ago, way before the overall damage nerf. i was just showing you that this trend isn't changing and that this overall damage reduce didn't changed a thing about that. so it didn't made WvW better. i have already told you all my arguments so far and i may just repeat myself at this point. feel free to play more WvW without following map bus, ask WvW players what they think about all this and not just those who follow bus all day, try and base your arguments on your own experience and others instead of assuming what WvW is (not should be) just by reading what the gamemode is all about.

it is not what i want to see, it is what i see and experienced first hand. unfortunately there is less and less roamers and bigger and bigger bus. to the point of some servers only creating one big bus and a few lost players wandering the land.of course WvW guilds do create smaller groups when they raid. and by doing so we did felt the changes against bigger bus.right now reducing damage have the exact opposite effect as players will feel safer in the bus while having a harder time when alone because they can't cheese as much as before and so not kill when they would before.fun fact: there is still some builds that allow to kill in few seconds. like soulbeast have access to enough temporary damage boost to achieve that. but against a bus? retaliation will kill you.

2k rank was too high anyway. i spent an enormous time in WvW and i am not even at 1k5. becasue i mostly roamed, dueled, guild raided and did only a very little of bus train.grinding in GW2 is very repeptitive and unfun. (like in most games anyway.). the less the grind the better as grind is not content.

in what way, reducing damage dealt push players to focus on objectives instead of fights? I'm not claiming how players will behave ... I'm saying that the change encourages a more strategic game. how so? all i see is that it encourage bigger groups and bus. bigger groups have even more of an edge against smaller groups.it encourage boonballs even more since high damage builds are less viable. better use the old "dps with numbers" tactic while making everyone harder to kill. the only good thing reducing overall damage has done is making 1v1 more interesting.

in what way, reducing damage dealt push players to focus on objectives instead of fights?

this is a case where WvW lost its purpose years ago. players now play it to bump into other players and fight. they just don't care about the strategy approach. every stategy about siege placement has already been discovered and are now automatism. we don't think anymore.i also already answered this to you. WvW is, just like any other similar games in its core like planetside 2 or TESO WvW.. the objectives are there to give you a general direction in what you need to do. but you do it for the potential exciting fights you may get. you need to understand that. because they tried to adapt their view of WvW depending on players feedback? and that was player feedback, whinning because of getting one shot from nowhere from thieves or rev in bus.so they just took the easiest road and toned down all damage. but doing that without touching the other problems just led to other issues.you see, the players who just go in WvW to follow a commander in a big bus will love this. because that means less deaths while joining the bus and less magical 15K rev. but zergs will still get destroyed the same way abd still as fast as before but maybe letting those already dead ones one extra second of buttton smashing before death.in the end it doesn't change that much zergs fight but really does for other players not playing in zergs. i already answered to this. because it is the easier way. or the lazyest way. pick one.no one in arenanet is fully commited to WvW. and i wonder about PvP. they don't have much time to spend on WvW matters so they just address the big problems.players whine about how they get one shot all the time in WvW? paf! overall damage nerf with the hope that this fix the issue.players whine about mount killing you while downed? paf! now mount maul deal less than an auto attack instead of working around what makes this mount unique and balance it.building cannons was used as a counter to zerg in zerg vs zerg fights? paf! deleted that update.in fact. most if not all WvW updates where made because of WvW bus players. because they are the biggest part of WvW now. if you don't please the bus people will leave.see how no downstate cast fear on bus players. because now, small groups will get more chance of screwing bus as they wont revive their fallen bus mates. but since you asked me. why do YOU think? so zerg boon ball with everyeone spamming their skills all over the place is a strategic approach to WvW? where are the roamers? the scouts? the sneaky small groups? the raid guilds?WvW is not all about bus. if if it was i would not even touch WvW with a stick anymore.this just promote zergs and big groups which dumb down WvW strategical options.

Just fyi, he mains a necro. And as someone that now plays Scrapper for the most part, I wouldn't really care that my F5 less useful. It would now be freed up for pure superspeed, which is fine by me. Doesn't change the issue at all. Just because a small majority here thinks removing downstate would be good for the game it really isn't. If you remove downstate, goodbye every power build, goodbye invulnerabilites, stealth, and so on. Why? Because these skills are even more unbalanced when people die at once. I'm maining Ele, I already can get oneshot. If you remove downstate, you have to cut damage from Rangers, Thieves, Revs, Warriors and basically everyone else by at least 90% to make fights not a frag fest.Why do you think WvW participation drops massively when this event hits? Because it's so fun for most? No, it caters a small fanbase that likes to play builds that forgive errors, because they can hide, run or invuln their way out of (almost) everything.in fact this event scare player away because you can't hit every enemy that dies that would be in downstate before so you do less bags. funny enough, falling in a zerg vs zerg often means death anyway. also when they try to come back to their bus, gankers/roamers often have a hard time finishing the downed when there is several pugs around that can help the downed. (not to mention mounts.). not anymore! i think alot of players coming to WvW don't realise that this should be an open PvP area and not just a karma train with zerg fest.screw those who just come in WvW to afk brain in a bus like they are shopping.

each one of us is trying to have fun with what we prefer doing. some prefer excorting dolyacks, others just afk in towers and treb all day, other karma train with the commander and leave him if he fight too much etc...but Fights is a big part of WvW. (IMO the central aspect of WvW with the strategic territory control the objectives to make that happens but lets leave that aside as we do not agree on that part and it is just a matter of perception of the gamemode.) i fully understand the changes. and we have enough data about it now to discuss about it.the overall damage reduction was to promote the use of more skills rather than spam a few to kill an opponent.give more room to counter attack without getting one shot by a magically 15k or whatever.it has a good intention. but this was the easiest way to tone everything down. because now, previous average damage spells that were alrgith are less than average. previous one shot combo (kill an enemy under 1s) can still be done. (aka soulbeast with siamouth f1 + quick double maul, mesmer shatter, etc...)also revenant will not hit you with 15k on hammer 2 anymore but since they were used in bus with tons of buffs you will not be able to really counter anything.some weapons like engi rifle suffered alot from those changes. same for war hammer, staff elem.. the thing is, if arenanet really wnats to make fight longer, with more counterplay and less cheesy oneshot they should not simply tone done damage without reworking downed state, protection, retaliation.. in fact boons in general, condition damage (i am for more condi damage with less up time to be closer to power builds but without the same damage output instead of condi that last 20s. it is stupid to have spells that deal 17K burning over 8s. its like an instant kill switch if the target has no cleanse..)and AOE (maybe we could see a special buuble like the new war bubble that make you invulnerable to AOE on the ground while in it.). ATM the adverse effects are not worth the changes. yes, the changes impacted small scale fights more. big bus will always have enough damage and boons to roll over anything.

right now, WvW territory control is a pretext to fight. you capture territory when there is no fights. i never saw a group of player avoiding fights for the sake of capturing territory since years. yeah, players did play for the server back then. but back then there was a gathering bonus for the winning server. and also WvW seasons. and more balanced population overall.what now? just by playing all day/night long you will naturally make more points than a server which only really plays on prime time. when that happens the losing server will have no way of winning back the point difference unless they sacrifice their time to play GW2 for actually no special reward upon achieving the feat of winning the first place.usually, at the end of the weekend the first will stay first, the second will stay second and the third will stay third until the end of the week. now that i think about it. why do you bother with me wanting to balance the game around fights if all there is to WvW is structure caping? isn't that already good enough? why are you agianst me promoting smaller scale fights? aren't you pushing your ideals about WvW onto me? how will not reducing overall damage for WvW impact structure caping? will you believe me if i say that most , if not all, changes arenanet made for WvW was based off some players feedback?of course not all of the updates where good ones. either becasue arenanet didn't listened to the right crowd or because they did not fully understood what players wanted.in the end , if the players quit the game die. you should also realise that, aside from the relatively young 2v2 and 3v3 compared to the 5v5, regular 5v5 pvp gamemode is not about killing the enemy but capturing and holding points, becasue that is the most effective way to win. would you play WvW if there was no enemies? no you wont. no one would. that is why people just stop playing when facing low WvW populated server where there is barely nothing to kill. they will paint all the map in one color and then leave. i don't know what i can add... i am sorry if you really commited yourself in WvW to make opints for your server while it is useless to do so... you should seek what is fun and balance the game around that. because arenanet will never make a WvW season again (the reason was players getting a burnout in actively trying to make their server win and so WvW lost alot of players in the process). competitivness is dead. (until we get official GvG).

never said it was unplayable. the thread only exist because the trend is to lower overall damage (which were already applied) and CMC said that WvW may know another overall damage reduction with reduced healing.i believe that this way of balancing WvW is not the right thing to do. perhaps reducing healing will be a good thing? who knows?

you don't get it. there is literraly no reward for winning. being 1rst or last means absolutely nothing.the only reason some fights just for the territory and the points is only for pride.playing for the server means nothing as there is no reward for doing so. the only reward left is fun. and buffing boonballs by reducing everyones damage is not fun. because you may have not realised (but i did since WvW is my main gamemode and PvE is last) that as years pass, roaming, scouting and small scale fight (along with GvG) tend to disapear while bus are getting bigger. (duels too becomes more and more rare). you know, if people would really care about getting the maximum points possible they would divid in smaller groups and capture a maximum of structures between 10min and 15min of the tick so the enemy would not be able to catpure them back before the tick ends while defending the rest of the time. but they don't do that. they just capture everything on their path to get some quick exp for the chest reward track until they get a fight. you even see whole bus targeting some poor 5 people running around, sometimes for hundreds of meters just to get to kill someone. players seek fights. its just because capturing structure give the most exp for the reward chest and the most karma and whatever reward you get.while all those who came here for fighting and has good individual skill tend to leave the game.sure this is more true for low score servers (which often means low WvW pop too) than for the top 3. do you know why the desert borderland is the most loved yet less played map? like it is always the last map to get a queue if it ever get one.because the map is so big, it takes longer to find peopel to fight so al lyou do is mostly capturing territory.and eternal battleground is the most played map despit most players prefering the alpine borderland because it is more compact and you fight more often. (and also becasue there is more often big bus fights.) all this to say that, you are wrong. players come to WvW to fight. even if they like to mindlessly follow a bus to do some territory control. it is even more apparent with WvW guilds. they will never tell you that the guild is all about capturing structure. but about winning against other players, even outnumbered. is WvW just a PvE map to you were everyone should just gang together in one massive bus to cap everything while avoiding the other bus?becasue that was EOTM. and it is dead now.

gameplay should reward skillfull players. Actaully, the reward in WvW isn't about killing people, it's about the score. If you want to be rewarded for killing people, that's why PVP exists. in pvp you are rewarded for holding points. killing is only a secondary objective.and you know, you earn points by killing (more on stomping) in WvW too. That doesn't change what I said ... WvW reward isn't about killing people, it's about the map score. If you want to be rewarded for killing people, that's why PVP exists. You get way more reward for killing people in PVP than WvW ... think about why that is. It's reasonable to think that making people harder to kill is all part of that. The smart WvW players that want to win don't focus on kililng people. HUM ... why would that be? How does that connect with the change we are talking about? :pensive: See here is my thinking ... if it's harder to kill people ... it's easier for people to get around and actually DO the things that allow you to win in WvW. It encourages smaller groups to break off, time their actions, create diversions ... kill the zerg game. It's called strategy and when you got situations were there is too much 1 shoting ... strategy becomes secondary to tactics of killing people. Anyways, it was a move in the right direction, especially if you understand why we have WvW in this game in the first place. but it is useless to win or lose in wvw. Again, that doesn't change what I said. WvW reward isn't about killing people, it's about the map score, EVEN if you believe you can't win or lose WvW (which is factually wrong since there is a score to prove who is wining ... but whatever) But let's play this game you started ... if it's useless to win or lose in WvW ... then it doesn't matter if you can kill people and your whole complaint doesn't make sense right? If you just want to reduce WvW to 'killing people' then PVP is a much better 'killing people' game mode than WvW could ever be ... so what you should be doing if killing people matters this much to you is PVP, not WvW. there is several kind of players in WvW. but the main goal of even going to WvW is to kill other players. simply running around caping structure is incredibly boring if there is no fights. Being boring or not is irrelevant ... those are the kinds of activities that allow you to win WvW. ... and don't pretend you don't get fights if you do these things either ... that's dishonest. That's actually the POINT of the change because as players roam as a small group doing these things and they are going to get insta'ed ... they will likely be much LESS willing to do these things. Don't pretend somehow we lost all this 'fairness'. Sure it's convenient for you to simply declare WVW is about killing players ... but it's way more than that and the changes to the game lean towards the strategic side of WvW ... as it should be in the first place. If you just want to kill players, PvP is the appropriate game mode. Again ... if you just want to reduce WvW to killing people to justify your complaint, you have LOTS of explaining to do as to why there is such a prominent strategic element to it and why it should be ignored so you can insta players. You can't ... because WvW isn't primarily about killing people. i disagree with you. there is no use of caping structure for the sake of doing it. the adverse effect of lowering overall damage, again, is to promote bus gameplay in detriment of more interesting roaming and small scale fights. giving more advantage to the larger group is actually unhealthy to WvW. (which is why we got stab nerf, rally nerf to one enemy, max enemy hit by AOE on specific spells like scourge sand summon, etc...)the overall damage nerf was to easily town down the very bursty builds that could one shot you from nowhere. but those should have been addressed individually instead of just nerfing everything.take the nerf on CC damage. i find this a very good nerf! but some specific weapons or skills suffured greatly from this to the point of being cast aside by most people. (hammer war, rifle engi, engi mines, etc...). the question is, should content be balanced toward large scale or small scale? PS: ultimately, GW2 should be about fun. especially WvW where the rewards are lower than in PvP and PvE and winning or loosing don't matter at all.getting one shot from nowhere is no fun. but having to grind boonballs is even worst. losing 1v2 because you can't do enough damage is frustrating.of course, lowering overall damage could be alright if retaliation, protection, resistance, etc would be toned down (like scale with stats maybe? so you can't have berserker stats and get 33% damage reduction from protection at the same time?). but as things stands now, with all those buffs and survivability....downed state is also a big problem but thats not what this thread is about.

gameplay should reward skillfull players. Actaully, the reward in WvW isn't about killing people, it's about the score. If you want to be rewarded for killing people, that's why PVP exists. in pvp you are rewarded for holding points. killing is only a secondary objective.and you know, you earn points by killing (more on stomping) in WvW too. That doesn't change what I said ... WvW reward isn't about killing people, it's about the map score. If you want to be rewarded for killing people, that's why PVP exists. You get way more reward for killing people in PVP than WvW ... think about why that is. It's reasonable to think that making people harder to kill is all part of that. The smart WvW players that want to win don't focus on kililng people. HUM ... why would that be? How does that connect with the change we are talking about? :pensive: See here is my thinking ... if it's harder to kill people ... it's easier for people to get around and actually DO the things that allow you to win in WvW. It encourages smaller groups to break off, time their actions, create diversions ... kill the zerg game. It's called strategy and when you got situations were there is too much 1 shoting ... strategy becomes secondary to tactics of killing people. Anyways, it was a move in the right direction, especially if you understand why we have WvW in this game in the first place. but it is useless to win or lose in wvw. Again, that doesn't change what I said. WvW reward isn't about killing people, it's about the map score, EVEN if you believe you can't win or lose WvW (which is factually wrong since there is a score to prove who is wining ... but whatever) But let's play this game you started ... if it's useless to win or lose in WvW ... then it doesn't matter if you can kill people and your whole complaint doesn't make sense right? If you just want to reduce WvW to 'killing people' then PVP is a much better 'killing people' game mode than WvW could ever be ... so what you should be doing if killing people matters this much to you is PVP, not WvW. there is several kind of players in WvW. but the main goal of even going to WvW is to kill other players. simply running around caping structure is incredibly boring if there is no fights. as the "fights" are the soul of WvW, wouldn't it be better to promote fair fights rather than accentuate the unfairness between large groupe and small groups? not to mention the unbalance between server population...

in a fight, yes. otherwise no point in trying to become better. reward wise i can agree with you.also 'skill' in gw2 is very build dependent.

gameplay should reward skillfull players. Actaully, the reward in WvW isn't about killing people, it's about the score. If you want to be rewarded for killing people, that's why PVP exists. in pvp you are rewarded for holding points. killing is only a secondary objective.and you know, you earn points by killing (more on stomping) in WvW too. That doesn't change what I said ... WvW reward isn't about killing people, it's about the map score. If you want to be rewarded for killing people, that's why PVP exists. You get way more reward for killing people in PVP than WvW ... think about why that is. It's reasonable to think that making people harder to kill is all part of that. The smart WvW players that want to win don't focus on kililng people. HUM ... why would that be? How does that connect with the change we are talking about? :pensive: See here is my thinking ... if it's harder to kill people ... it's easier for people to get around and actually DO the things that allow you to win in WvW. It encourages smaller groups to break off, time their actions, create diversions ... kill the zerg game. It's called strategy and when you got situations were there is too much 1 shoting ... strategy becomes secondary to tactics of killing people. Anyways, it was a move in the right direction, especially if you understand why we have WvW in this game in the first place. but it is useless to win or lose in wvw. you earn nothing for being first or last. so most ppl play WvW for fun more than for reward. objectives are just a pretext to seek some fight or be proud of taking a structure from the enemy.

gameplay should reward skillfull players. Actaully, the reward in WvW isn't about killing people, it's about the score. If you want to be rewarded for killing people, that's why PVP exists. in pvp you are rewarded for holding points. killing is only a secondary objective.and you know, you earn points by killing (more on stomping) in WvW too.

mayba as a special event like pvp players rading each other on a pve map or us playing as monsters against pve people. but a full fledged WvW on a pve map would require too much work for the map to work properly for WvW.

i awlays wanted to be able to pvp on pve maps. or even play as the monsters the pve players has to beat :)

mad scientist with a focus on condi and a staff.stance type skills which would be thematicaly inventions used for a set time. more details here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1249926