Revert the nerfs to staff mirage

[Infusion.7149]

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/ai
Median mirage: 6.7K , median cRen : 5.2K , you'll note the top sample for mirage is double staff (53-54% alac generation)

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/arkk
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/arts --- quite bad here
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/skor --- quite bad here

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/siax --- absymal due to split phase , although the graph suggests it's roughly on par with cRen after patch
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/mama --- no samples, only axe mirage

Press cDPS button and EOD Beta (August 17 patch) rather than the EOD "end of precasts" patch for more complete data or use "all Eras" and 8/17/2021 onward.

It's quite naive to think staff mirage will ever compete with a alac ren outside of condi fights (i.e. high incoming damage pressure or moving targets) or places with extremely high attack rate (SH/TL). Just the exposed debuff already makes confusion only do its base damage (exposed means it is stunned which means no attacking); against large number of trash / adds there is less cleave because you need to rebuild your clone count.

If you really wanted to improve staff on mesmers (rather than just staff mirage) you would propose an improvement to warlock. Warlock actually is a DPS loss compared to auto attack so you only use it to rebuild clones. It could easily have burning , poison, or bleeding added , at least something that is not contingent on attack speed.

A revert to staff changes would do nothing to help it in the majority of use cases. More alacrity is meaningless because most people are getting ~50% alac at best so you need two of them (so compared to condi RR it isn't going to be good unless high attack rate). I would say condi RR / condi Renegade deserves shave of the overall damage rather than staff mirage getting buffed. That's especially the case when it is SH , as the low movement means torment is quite effective. Condi Ren does more DPS than condi BS (in full DPS form) , condi scourge, condi holo, condi soulbeast, and even condi tempest. Condi RR specifically (~50% alac) does 37K and that isn't okay given it used to do ~38K in full cDPS before torment changes : it really should do ~32-33K at most similar to before the torment change. Both variants of banner berserker are ~33-34K DPS and you can consider that a half support.

[Zenith.7301]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/ai
Median mirage: 6.7K , median cRen : 5.2K , you'll note the top sample for mirage is double staff (53-54% alac generation)

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/arkk
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/arts --- quite bad here
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/skor --- quite bad here

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/siax --- absymal due to split phase , although the graph suggests it's roughly on par with cRen after patch
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/mama --- no samples, only axe mirage

Press cDPS button and EOD Beta (August 17 patch) rather than the EOD "end of precasts" patch for more complete data or use "all Eras" and 8/17/2021 onward.

It's quite naive to think staff mirage will ever compete with a alac ren outside of condi fights (i.e. high incoming damage pressure or moving targets) or places with extremely high attack rate (SH/TL). Just the exposed debuff already makes confusion only do its base damage (exposed means it is stunned which means no attacking); against large number of trash / adds there is less cleave because you need to rebuild your clone count.

If you really wanted to improve staff on mesmers (rather than just staff mirage) you would propose an improvement to warlock. Warlock actually is a DPS loss compared to auto attack so you only use it to rebuild clones. It could easily have burning , poison, or bleeding added , at least something that is not contingent on attack speed.

A revert to staff changes would do nothing to help it in the majority of use cases. More alacrity is meaningless because most people are getting ~50% alac at best so you need two of them (so compared to condi RR it isn't going to be good unless high attack rate). I would say condi RR / condi Renegade deserves shave of the overall damage rather than staff mirage getting buffed. That's especially the case when it is SH , as the low movement means torment is quite effective. Condi Ren does more DPS than condi BS (in full DPS form) , condi scourge, condi holo, condi soulbeast, and even condi tempest. Condi RR specifically (~50% alac) does 37K and that isn't okay given it used to do ~38K in full cDPS before torment changes : it really should do ~32-33K at most similar to before the torment change. Both variants of banner berserker are ~33-34K DPS and you can consider that a half support.

 

Or we could have both, an improvement to warlock and a revert of the nerfs. Of note, exposed did work with confusion, you would get a single tick on exposed pop, which meand if I precast confusion stacks just as exposed was about to go off I'd get 60-70k ticks on Ai in 100cm. Now with the awful confusion changes the 30-70k ticks I would get frequently were gutted and the passive damage does not come even close to compensating. Confusion needs to deal 100% of bleed damage in PvE.

 

Moreover, mirage above all condi specs should stand ahead of other condi specs not only because it has long ramp up similar to condi renegade, but it has abysmal target switching, abysmal AoE cleave, and low breakbar burst on a condi spec with literally zero utility besides mediocre CC at high DPS opportunity cost. If scourge and firebrand and renegade do similar DPS, then condi mirage is woefully undertuned, because it doesn't come close to the flexibility and utility of their kits.

 

And it's not just warlock that's bad. Phantasmal Mage is horrendously bad, a whopping 30 sec cd for such meager output, and phantasmal duelist isn't that far behind. Fact is, phantasms deal horrendous damage relative to their long cooldowns and activation times (which are not reduced courtesy of pvp centric balancing for mesmers). Chronophantasma just sorta hides this fact.

 

Staff mesmer will benefit from changing confusion to 100% bleed damage, and changing either chaos vortex from clones applying alacrity or shifting the alacrity to chaos storm and chaos armor, and making chaos armor 5-10 man so the mesmer staff can be a useful support weapon in all specs instead of just one.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Infusion.7149]

25 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

Or we could have both, an improvement to warlock and a revert of the nerfs. Of note, exposed did work with confusion, you would get a single tick on exposed pop, which meand if I precast confusion stacks just as exposed was about to go off I'd get 60-70k ticks on Ai in 100cm. Now with the awful confusion changes the 30-70k ticks I would get frequently were gutted and the passive damage does not come even close to compensating. Confusion needs to deal 100% of bleed damage in PvE.

 

Moreover, mirage above all condi specs should stand ahead of other condi specs not only because it has long ramp up similar to condi renegade, but it has abysmal target switching, abysmal AoE cleave, and low breakbar burst on a condi spec with literally zero utility besides mediocre CC at high DPS opportunity cost. If scourge and firebrand and renegade do similar DPS, then condi mirage is woefully undertuned, because it doesn't come close to the flexibility and utility of their kits.

 

And it's not just warlock that's bad. Phantasmal Mage is horrendously bad, a whopping 30 sec cd for such meager output, and phantasmal duelist isn't that far behind. Fact is, phantasms deal horrendous damage relative to their long cooldowns and activation times (which are not reduced courtesy of pvp centric balancing for mesmers). Chronophantasma just sorta hides this fact.

 

Staff mesmer will benefit from changing confusion to 100% bleed damage, and changing either chaos vortex from clones applying alacrity or shifting the alacrity to chaos storm and chaos armor, and making chaos armor 5-10 man so the mesmer staff can be a useful support weapon in all specs instead of just one.

Abysmal AoE cleave how? Staff bounces unless you mean the Chaos Vortex ambush skill. Notice the thread is about reverting nerfs to staff, which would do nearly nothing about that either. In addition, that would be meaningless in the scenario you are referencing which is Sunqua Peak as people epi the adds or break the CC bars.

Phantasmal mage isn't abysmal (it's a CC skill that also applies burning and confusion) and neither is duelist (see https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARKqo5-PTCQCHIv235EUoUlLvK7wmOYt0_aGhBnqFw0/

In addition, your proposed change to move alacrity to Chaos Storm and chaos armor doesn't reflect current scenarios. Having 360 radius alacrity around the mirage with no clone requirements is far stronger than a groundtargetted 240 radius or 240 PBAOE which is partly why wells on chronos are so clunky. If alacrity is going to be made viable on chronos as well, it should probably be on Lost Time in a similar fashion to StM (Seize the Moment) so that you can choose to specialize in quickness or alacrity.

As I posted in another thread made by someone else, your issue is with condi renegade (and scourge) overperforming after torment changes, not with mesmer. Keep in mind that you are mixing staff with axe mirage. Staff mirage should do less damage in the majority of cases than other condi specs by virtue of always bringing alacrity and might to the group while also being ranged and simpler to play. Right now you can outDPS full viper scourges in some scenarios such as TL+SH+Cairn.
 

No staff mirage should not be top condi DPS, it should be full glass melee condi weaver played perfectly.

[Zenith.7301]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Abysmal AoE cleave how? Staff bounces unless you mean the Chaos Vortex ambush skill. Notice the thread is about reverting nerfs to staff, which would do nearly nothing about that either. In addition, that would be meaningless in the scenario you are referencing which is Sunqua Peak as people epi the adds or break the CC bars.

Phantasmal mage isn't abysmal (it's a CC skill that also applies burning and confusion) and neither is duelist (see https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARKqo5-PTCQCHIv235EUoUlLvK7wmOYt0_aGhBnqFw0/

In addition, your proposed change to move alacrity to Chaos Storm and chaos armor doesn't reflect current scenarios. Having 360 radius alacrity around the mirage with no clone requirements is far stronger than a groundtargetted 240 radius or 240 PBAOE which is partly why wells on chronos are so clunky. If alacrity is going to be made viable on chronos as well, it should probably be on Lost Time in a similar fashion to StM (Seize the Moment) so that you can choose to specialize in quickness or alacrity.

As I posted in another thread made by someone else, your issue is with condi renegade (and scourge) overperforming after torment changes, not with mesmer. Keep in mind that you are mixing staff with axe mirage. Staff mirage should do less damage in the majority of cases than other condi specs by virtue of always bringing alacrity and might to the group while also being ranged and simpler to play. Right now you can outDPS full viper scourges in some scenarios such as TL+SH+Cairn.
 

No staff mirage should not be top condi DPS, it should be full glass melee condi weaver played perfectly.

 

 

Abysmal aoe cleave in Artsariv. Abysmal cleave in Nightmare (axe or torch, both suck). Abysmal AoE cleave for T4's in general, unlike firebrand burst aoe cleave or scourge's desert shroud.

 

The CC of Phantasmal Mage is irrelevant; you are using it on cooldown either to loop in your cry of frustration or just for the damage.

 

Weaver doesn't deserve to be top DPS for the simple reason that their damage, like firebrand damage, is far burstier, they have great cleave, and survivability is an irrelevant factor in PvE when supported by the sheer strength of healbrand supports. Condi daredevils and 10k HP firebrands who get 1 shot by 100cm lasers are already being played without issue. When ele was meta, it was getting played without issue. The survivability argument is dumb, and part of the reason why Scourge is vastly outperforming Reaper, as Reaper is forced to be a garbage spec under the excuse of being "survivable".

 

Chrono is not clunky because boon application is by wells. It is clunky because the application doesn't last long enough for the effort it takes while braindead firebrands and renegade press a single button without any thought. If Chaos Storm and Chaos Armor applied enough excess duration to cover encounter mobility demands, the fact they are ground based would be irrelevant. Furthremore, Time Warp is begging for a retooling in PvE; just make it 45-60 secs cd 20 sec alacrity+quickness+chill+slow. Suddenly a useful elite for support centric specs as opposed to a totally worthless and redundant one.

 

It's not just scourge or firebrand outperforming. If scourge or firebrand are knocked out, condi soulbeast and daredevil take over and mirage doesn't end in any better a place. Power DPS chrono and axe mirage still won't compete with dragon hunter or holosmith for power centric fights. Mesmer will still have the awful ramp up, bad target switching, bad cleave, and deficient utility.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Abysmal aoe cleave in Artsariv. Abysmal cleave in Nightmare (axe or torch, both suck). Abysmal AoE cleave for T4's in general, unlike firebrand burst aoe cleave or scourge's desert shroud.

 

The CC of Phantasmal Mage is irrelevant; you are using it on cooldown either to loop in your cry of frustration or just for the damage.

 

Weaver doesn't deserve to be top DPS for the simple reason that their damage, like firebrand damage, is far burstier, they have great cleave, and survivability is an irrelevant factor in PvE when supported by the sheer strength of healbrand supports. Condi daredevils and 10k HP firebrands who get 1 shot by 100cm lasers are already being played without issue. When ele was meta, it was getting played without issue. The survivability argument is dumb, and part of the reason why Scourge is vastly outperforming Reaper, as Reaper is forced to be a garbage spec under the excuse of being "survivable".

 

Chrono is not clunky because boon application is by wells. It is clunky because the application doesn't last long enough for the effort it takes while braindead firebrands and renegade press a single button without any thought. If Chaos Storm and Chaos Armor applied enough excess duration to cover encounter mobility demands, the fact they are ground based would be irrelevant. Furthremore, Time Warp is begging for a retooling in PvE; just make it 45 secs cd 20 sec alacrity+quickness+chill+slow. Suddenly a useful elite for support centric specs as opposed to a totally worthless and redundant one.

 

It's not just scourge or firebrand outperforming. If scourge or firebrand are knocked out, condi soulbeast and daredevil take over and mirage doesn't end in any better a place. Power DPS chrono and axe mirage still won't compete with dragon hunter or holosmith for power centric fights. Mesmer will still have the awful ramp up, bad target switching, bad cleave, and deficient utility.

The thread is about staff mirage which makes all your complaints about axe mirage completely offtopic.
Axe is 40K + confusion right now anyway:
 

Spoiler

 

Shades and desert shroud are 3 targets on scourge, which is the same as axe auto on mirage.

Condi weaver isn't far burstier than CFB or renegade. It's also far harder to execute (not even mentioning survivability there if you play thief and compare to weaver you would know weaver is harder) and pull off due to being melee and animation locks everywhere. 5 seconds into the graph it's 25K DPS , for hybrid weaver it's around 26K.

A condi renegede would be around 31K DPS at that point , condi holo at ~31K , condi hybrid soulbeast at 36K , while celestial renegade would be ~20K. CFB would be around 24K at that point (CQB ~ 17k) and that is with the new virtues variant rather than last year's sword of justice with Zeal for Eternal Armory. Condi  daredevil would be around 20K with allies and condi daredevil is melee and can leap you into mechanics like flame wall/oil/poisons due to the dagger+dagger combo. Full condi soulbeast would be about 22K at that point.

After confusion changes axe mirage is ~18K around 5 seconds in with deception + torch. Condi berserker would be roughly at the same point. That's comparable to what scourge gets , it's around 20K after 5s.

StM pChrono is used plenty on W1 VG ,W3 KC , W2 Sloth, W3 Xera, W4 Samarog if not using HB, W5 Dhuum, W6 CA, W7 Sabir, W7 Adina after boon thief nerf, etc. https://lucky-noobs.com/teamcompositions

Staff alac mirage is able to be used on W2 Matthias, W5 Soulless Horror, W6 Twin Largos , and performs well on W4 Cairn as well but nobody comps just for that really.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[otto.5684]

On 9/6/2021 at 7:58 PM, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

lol, confusion change was a buff on golem benchmark and a nerf everywhere else. I love how people like you claim others are misinformed when it's you lacking the proper context. 100cm performance in particular was gutted with the confusion change.

Everywhere else, not including most pve content as mobs, even bosses, do not atk frequently. I still think confusion base damage should be increased from 50% to 75% of bleed.
 

In any case, staff does not need a buff in pve. It is a ranged, very safe weapon, with spammable aoe boon support. And it already does decent damage.

Edited September 8, 2021 by otto.5684

[Levetty.1279]

On 9/6/2021 at 10:49 PM, Kondor.2904 said:

Nothing wrong with having an easy build but staff mirage already deals very respectable dps and has a built-in permanent might and alacrity uptime for 10 people coming from a single button. 

Wow, so you are getting mirage cloak, using the ambush, getting 3 clones out, using utilities and heal skills for more mirage mirrors and rotating in shatters and replacing those clones all with 1 button?

 

Have you considered just stop trolling and going back to the thief forums?

[Kondor.2904]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Wow, so you are getting mirage cloak, using the ambush, getting 3 clones out, using utilities and heal skills for more mirage mirrors and rotating in shatters and replacing those clones all with 1 button?

 

Have you considered just stop trolling and going back to the thief forums?

I didn't mean your rotation consists of 1 button (if you can call it a rotation at all). I meant that most of your dmg and boon sharing capabilities are coming from 1 button, aka ambush skill. And technically you don't even need boon duration stats to cap it. 

When I start playing thief, I will switch to thief sub with pleasure, thanks for your concerns. 

[Levetty.1279]

21 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

I didn't mean your rotation consists of 1 button (if you can call it a rotation at all). I meant that most of your dmg and boon sharing capabilities are coming from 1 button, aka ambush skill. And technically you don't even need boon duration stats to cap it. 

When I start playing thief, I will switch to thief sub with pleasure, thanks for your concerns. 

Yes builds generally have one skill that does more damage then the others. You are really reaching to find things to cry about Mesmer.

[Kondor.2904]

Just now, Levetty.1279 said:

Yes builds generally have one skill that does more damage then the others. You are really reaching to find things to cry about Mesmer.

If you stop clinging to singled out words, and also stop trying to argue with me for the sake of argument that would be great.

bUilDs hAvE skIlls that dO mOrE dMg ThaN oThErs kekw

[Kondor.2904]

@Levetty.1279
(idk how to pin someone)

But if you have contextual comprehension problems, just so you understand the whole idea behind my posts which you purposefully choose to single out for some reason, I'll clarify once again just for you specifically. (And that's what other like-minded players agree on too)

I think staff mirage's dmg should not be buffed because:
1) It already deals quite respectable dps that goes up from "respectable" to "really really good" on certain bosses. 
2) It has built-in boon support that you cannot disregard even if it's less useful within certain types of content
3) It's a very forgiving and simple gameplay build that IMO should not be allowed to top dps charts

Hope that helps to avoid further pointless head-ramming. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Kondor.2904

[Levetty.1279]

Current state of the game has 3 classes that dominate every single part of it but apparently the problem is Mesmer's one half decent fractals/raid build that isn't even as good as those 3. On top of that you are starting to throw out insults. Not a troll though, nope certainly not.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[Leonidrex.5649]

calm the kitten down, people were pulling 50k kittening dps on some bosses as kittening afk level gameplay SUPPORT.
yes mesmer isnt great anywhere outside of raids but the raid nerfs were deserved, instead of crying for buffs that will just make it broken as kitten in raids again, and not fixing anything else, how about put this effort into thinking up ways of making mesmer better in fractals for example. I would love to have a decent power mesmer spec for fractals for example, or anything with any cleave.
Buffing monkey ambush staff spam and auto spam is not the wae

[Zenith.7301]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:36 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

The thread is about staff mirage which makes all your complaints about axe mirage completely offtopic.
Axe is 40K + confusion right now anyway:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Shades and desert shroud are 3 targets on scourge, which is the same as axe auto on mirage.

Condi weaver isn't far burstier than CFB or renegade. It's also far harder to execute (not even mentioning survivability there if you play thief and compare to weaver you would know weaver is harder) and pull off due to being melee and animation locks everywhere. 5 seconds into the graph it's 25K DPS , for hybrid weaver it's around 26K.

A condi renegede would be around 31K DPS at that point , condi holo at ~31K , condi hybrid soulbeast at 36K , while celestial renegade would be ~20K. CFB would be around 24K at that point (CQB ~ 17k) and that is with the new virtues variant rather than last year's sword of justice with Zeal for Eternal Armory. Condi  daredevil would be around 20K with allies and condi daredevil is melee and can leap you into mechanics like flame wall/oil/poisons due to the dagger+dagger combo. Full condi soulbeast would be about 22K at that point.

After confusion changes axe mirage is ~18K around 5 seconds in with deception + torch. Condi berserker would be roughly at the same point. That's comparable to what scourge gets , it's around 20K after 5s.

StM pChrono is used plenty on W1 VG ,W3 KC , W2 Sloth, W3 Xera, W4 Samarog if not using HB, W5 Dhuum, W6 CA, W7 Sabir, W7 Adina after boon thief nerf, etc. https://lucky-noobs.com/teamcompositions

Staff alac mirage is able to be used on W2 Matthias, W5 Soulless Horror, W6 Twin Largos , and performs well on W4 Cairn as well but nobody comps just for that really.

 

 

lol always sticking with golem benchmarks instead of real encounter scenarios within the game, it's why talking to people like you is like talking to a wall of ignorance.

 

Shades and shrouds don't have range restrictions, they can be cast in a spread, and amplified by epidemic, which mirage does not have.

 

Condiweaver damage breakdown has far more burning damage on it, immediately superior to other conditions for burning exposed bars. Again, your clueless references to golem benchmark ramp ups don't square with the actual DPS practice in fractals. More nonsensical crap (if people listened to you, they'd think firebrand is just fine since it's benching only 37k DPS in golem instead of their actual crushing dominance in fractal performance). Survivability has not been an issue ever on thief, and it hasn't been on weaver for anyone playing top end content, because in top end content you are expected to do mechanics instead of facetanking Artsariv stomps with frailty and boon overload. When ele was meta and 3 staff weavers were being run in fractals before guardian became meta, nobody cried about their survivability. Most lethal damage in GW2 is perfectly avoidable, and what isn't is either being aegis or distorted. Weaver now even has the luxury of protection, barrier, and aegis, which it didn't have when banner warrior was also mandatory to group comps. Spare me about animation locks; renegade mace 3 has been a thing long before ele animation locks, mirage axe 2 is an even worse animation lock, and beforwe those two ranger sword 1 was a thing before it was revamped; people played just fine.

[Infusion.7149]

33 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

lol always sticking with golem benchmarks instead of real encounter scenarios within the game, it's why talking to people like you is like talking to a wall of ignorance.

 

Shades and shrouds don't have range restrictions, they can be cast in a spread, and amplified by epidemic, which mirage does not have.

 

Condiweaver damage breakdown has far more burning damage on it, immediately superior to other conditions for burning exposed bars. Again, your clueless references to golem benchmark ramp ups don't square with the actual DPS practice in fractals. More nonsensical crap (if people listened to you, they'd think firebrand is just fine since it's benching only 37k DPS in golem instead of their actual crushing dominance in fractal performance). Survivability has not been an issue ever on thief, and it hasn't been on weaver for anyone playing top end content, because in top end content you are expected to do mechanics instead of facetanking Artsariv stomps with frailty and boon overload. When ele was meta and 3 staff weavers were being run in fractals before guardian became meta, nobody cried about their survivability. Most lethal damage in GW2 is perfectly avoidable, and what isn't is either being aegis or distorted. Weaver now even has the luxury of protection, barrier, and aegis, which it didn't have when banner warrior was also mandatory to group comps. Spare me about animation locks; renegade mace 3 has been a thing long before ele animation locks, mirage axe 2 is an even worse animation lock, and beforwe those two ranger sword 1 was a thing before it was revamped; people played just fine.

wingman / Nevermind logs are from actual encounters which renders your argument moot.

Also this thread is about STAFF mirage which once again doesn't have the range restriction you keep suggesting exists.

Condi firebrand also happens to have more burning than weaver, because it outright has 70%+ of the damage coming from burning.

P.S. CFB Is 40K , not 37K

edit: also people shouldn't listen to me, they should just be aware of what players that obsess over this game write and actual performance based on logs and not people always complaining their class needs buffs.
*  Snowcrows about condiweaver  "Condition Weaver is currently one of the hardest rotations in the game" and "The main problem with this build is the requirement of permanent Alacrity
to be able to use the Weave Self rotation effectively. This is why, in some cases, you will need to delay your Weave Self to ensure you have boons." (5/5 difficulty and boon reliance)
* dT: "The main downside of Condi Weaver apart from the complexity of its rotation is the lack of unique party buffs and overall boon generation, apart from some Might granted by placing fire fields and randomly blasting them." (acquiring basics : 4/5 "difficult")
* LN : Right now the Condition Weaver is the strongest condi profession, but it has also one of the more complex rotations. Permanent Quickness and Alacrity are essential to be able to do the rotation. (5/5 difficulty rating)
* Hardstuck: 5/5 difficulty
* Metabattle: "This build has a complex rotation, but deals strong sustained damage through Burning and Bleeding , and has good access to CC and various utility skills."

Meanwhile:

and
from Snowcrows for axe mirage: "This class has a medium learning curve due to the need to always finish your auto attack chain when wanting to get really nice high numbers."
From LN for axe mirage: "Currently, the Mirage is the strongest DPS class in terms of condition damage, since both Torment and Confusion are very strong on some bosses."
From metabattle: "This build provides very high single target damage with the ambush skill . It excels against bosses that attack a lot due to a large portion of its damage coming from Confusion. It is also highly survivable and can easily avoid boss attacks because it is in for most of its rotation. "

Edited September 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zenith.7301]

42 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

wingman / Nevermind logs are from actual encounters which renders your argument moot.

Also this thread is about STAFF mirage which once again doesn't have the range restriction you keep suggesting exists.

Condi firebrand also happens to have more burning than weaver, because it outright has 70%+ of the damage coming from burning.

P.S. CFB Is 40K , not 37K

edit: also people shouldn't listen to me, they should just be aware of what players that obsess over this game write and actual performance based on logs and not people always complaining their class needs buffs.
*  Snowcrows about condiweaver  "Condition Weaver is currently one of the hardest rotations in the game" and "The main problem with this build is the requirement of permanent Alacrity
to be able to use the Weave Self rotation effectively. This is why, in some cases, you will need to delay your Weave Self to ensure you have boons." (5/5 difficulty and boon reliance)
* dT: "The main downside of Condi Weaver apart from the complexity of its rotation is the lack of unique party buffs and overall boon generation, apart from some Might granted by placing fire fields and randomly blasting them." (acquiring basics : 4/5 "difficult")
* LN : Right now the Condition Weaver is the strongest condi profession, but it has also one of the more complex rotations. Permanent Quickness and Alacrity are essential to be able to do the rotation. (5/5 difficulty rating)
* Hardstuck: 5/5 difficulty
* Metabattle: "This build has a complex rotation, but deals strong sustained damage through Burning and Bleeding , and has good access to CC and various utility skills."

Meanwhile:

and
from Snowcrows for axe mirage: "This class has a medium learning curve due to the need to always finish your auto attack chain when wanting to get really nice high numbers."
From LN for axe mirage: "Currently, the Mirage is the strongest DPS class in terms of condition damage, since both Torment and Confusion are very strong on some bosses."
From metabattle: "This build provides very high single target damage with the ambush skill . It excels against bosses that attack a lot due to a large portion of its damage coming from Confusion. It is also highly survivable and can easily avoid boss attacks because it is in for most of its rotation. "

 

 

lol the cherrypicking. Expand that quote in Snow Crows to include their section on timing confusion as a part of class mastery, which you conveniently left out.

 

And of course, you suddenly deleted Discretize from the conversation in your second part because they straight up state in their website that power chrono is the only viable mesmer build in fractals. Your are such a hideously dishonest actor.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

lol the cherrypicking. Expand that quote in Snow Crows to include their section on timing confusion as a part of class mastery, which you conveniently left out.

 

And of course, you suddenly deleted Discretize from the conversation in your second part because they straight up state in their website that power chrono is the only viable mesmer build in fractals. Your are such a hideously dishonest actor.

"So dishonest."
How about looking at some logs
 

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20210908-215538_drkai_kill
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20210905-204826_drkai_kill
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20210908-215538_drkai_kill

[Zenith.7301]

Linked the same log twice, for a single fractal boss (the only one mirage does well in, but that's par for the course with you) , without looking at the distribution of clears per class.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Infusion.7149]

21 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Linked the same log twice, for a single fractal boss (the only one mirage does well in, but that's par for the course with you) , without looking at the distribution of clears per class.

How many times a class is uploaded doesn't mean it is underpowered.

P.S. You're the one that kept talking about 100CM that's why I linked you 100CM. I linked everything on Tuesday (three days ago) , scroll up

Your entire premise is that every spec should be strong everywhere which is not true for any class ; virtuoso is going to be the pDPS spec.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[dontlook.1823]

On 9/6/2021 at 6:58 PM, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

lol, confusion change was a buff on golem benchmark and a nerf everywhere else. I love how people like you claim others are misinformed when it's you lacking the proper context. 100cm performance in particular was gutted with the confusion change.

I was so sad. That was the one fight where I could time my confusion so freaking well. I had a rhythm, and it was fun to find good times to apply confusion. Is it up constantly now like every other DoT? I don't know does that makes up the damage or what. I'm still getting used to the change, I suppose. I like to use it when the enemy is exposed in fractals. It frustrates me that it doesn't kick up the damage as much as it used to do. I have to work much harder to get to the DPS I used to pump out. It's like a bursty DoT that had an active function for that one kitten fight—100 cm.

[Zenith.7301]

8 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

How many times a class is uploaded doesn't mean it is underpowered.

P.S. You're the one that kept talking about 100CM that's why I linked you 100CM. I linked everything on Tuesday (three days ago) , scroll up

Your entire premise is that every spec should be strong everywhere which is not true for any class ; virtuoso is going to be the pDPS spec.

 

lol, cm was just one scenario I mentioned out of fractals, and the link you're referring to only supports my point that mirage is abysmal in fractals outside 100cm.

 

Many specs ARE strong everywhere. Scourges and Firebrands are littering everywhere for a reason. And before them, it was ele/dragonhunter (and condi mirage only for raids pre-nerf). Power chrono in its heyday of "OP" wasn't even close to what scourge and firebrand are today in fractals.

 

You say scourge and firebrands are outliers, but if you nerf them, mirage won't suddenly take over anywhere outside 100cm for the simple reason that any fight that isn't a prolonged single target fight without target swaps or priority adds is a garbage performance for mirage and mesmer in general due to the design of phantasms, shatters, and illusions in general.

 

And claims about pVirtuoso are meaningless. Willbender is benching around the same output and comes with the core perks of the guardian class on top of an elite that's just chrono well on 1/2 the cd. Not that any of them will touch the meta condi classes in fractals so long as exposed continues to be as lopsided as it is.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

lol, cm was just one scenario I mentioned out of fractals, and the link you're referring to only supports my point that mirage is abysmal in fractals outside 100cm.

 

Many specs ARE strong everywhere. Scourges and Firebrands are littering everywhere for a reason. And before them, it was ele/dragonhunter (and condi mirage only for raids pre-nerf). Power chrono in its heyday of "OP" wasn't even close to what scourge and firebrand are today in fractals.

 

You say scourge and firebrands are outliers, but if you nerf them, mirage won't suddenly take over anywhere outside 100cm for the simple reason that any fight that isn't a prolonged single target fight without target swaps or priority adds is a garbage performance for mirage and mesmer in general due to the design of phantasms, shatters, and illusions in general.

 

And claims about pVirtuoso are meaningless. Willbender is benching around the same output and comes with the core perks of the guardian class on top of an elite that's just chrono well on 1/2 the cd. Not that any of them will touch the meta condi classes in fractals so long as exposed continues to be as lopsided as it is.

Then play power Virtuoso in normal fractals then? What's the big deal about it that you need to make a fuss about mirage which is a condi spec? CnD guild was doing fine with it. Why not take discretize's advice and run pChrono in the meantime for most fractals?

cFB isn't great on KC , mediocre on VG, mediocre on sloth, Adina, or anywhere with phases. People take it for the flexibility of utilities and ease of use, unlike pChrono which people take for blocks that don't rely on boons , boon rip on sword, focus pull, some skips via blink, portal , etc. After the changes to power quickness scrapper if you have a source of might+fury it's actually common to see scrapper/StM chrono if you have a druid and DHs on KC / CA.

cScourge is over-tuned due to torment (Demonic Lore was designed for old torment), that's basically it now that Sand Flare requires traits to share barrier. I was playing it before torment changes and I have to say it only deserved to be on par with shortbow soulbeast (~32-33K).

Eles were only dominant in the tempest (which was heavily reliant on hitbox size and still is) and core era , weavers were never that popular actually compared to soulbeasts. The only place weaver was common was high end fractal CM groups before the breakbar change and power weaver nerfs.

Willbender is benching 37K, Virtuoso is easily 40K+:

Spoiler

In action:

 

If all you care about is 98CM+99CM then your first suggestion ought to be having confusion proc during the Siax split. Conditions ticking for far more in exposed is more of a boost on breakbars and not on adds which generally don't have them except on Chaos' anomaly boss.

They won't "take over" as you put it because people want easy specs. If you want to just fixate on the past, chrono was a staple in fractals along with druid before FB+Ren meta. Times change, adapt.

 P.S. The thread is still about staff mirage, which is why I explained why above a few posts ago why it will never overtake alacrity ren for alac, as it only provides ~50% alac.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Levetty.1279]

On 9/9/2021 at 9:28 AM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

 I would love to have a decent power mesmer spec for fractals for example, or anything with any cleave.

Hey we are getting Virtuo....BWAHAHAHA couldn't even get that out with a straight face.

[Zenith.7301]

9 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Then play power Virtuoso in normal fractals then? What's the big deal about it that you need to make a fuss about mirage which is a condi spec? CnD guild was doing fine with it. Why not take discretize's advice and run pChrono in the meantime for most fractals?

cFB isn't great on KC , mediocre on VG, mediocre on sloth, Adina, or anywhere with phases. People take it for the flexibility of utilities and ease of use, unlike pChrono which people take for blocks that don't rely on boons , boon rip on sword, focus pull, some skips via blink, portal , etc. After the changes to power quickness scrapper if you have a source of might+fury it's actually common to see scrapper/StM chrono if you have a druid and DHs on KC / CA.

cScourge is over-tuned due to torment (Demonic Lore was designed for old torment), that's basically it now that Sand Flare requires traits to share barrier. I was playing it before torment changes and I have to say it only deserved to be on par with shortbow soulbeast (~32-33K).

Eles were only dominant in the tempest (which was heavily reliant on hitbox size and still is) and core era , weavers were never that popular actually compared to soulbeasts. The only place weaver was common was high end fractal CM groups before the breakbar change and power weaver nerfs.

Willbender is benching 37K, Virtuoso is easily 40K+:

  Reveal hidden contents

In action:

 

If all you care about is 98CM+99CM then your first suggestion ought to be having confusion proc during the Siax split. Conditions ticking for far more in exposed is more of a boost on breakbars and not on adds which generally don't have them except on Chaos' anomaly boss.

They won't "take over" as you put it because people want easy specs. If you want to just fixate on the past, chrono was a staple in fractals along with druid before FB+Ren meta. Times change, adapt.

 P.S. The thread is still about staff mirage, which is why I explained why above a few posts ago why it will never overtake alacrity ren for alac, as it only provides ~50% alac.

 

 

Because Discretize's advice despite your selective reading is that pchrono is still a hindrance to the group since even then it severely underperforms. Don't know how more basic it needs to be put for you to process; Discretize flat out states mesmer sucks in fractals in all its current specs. Should they change the exposed bar and make power specs more attractive, pvirtuoso might be the fix mesmer needed, but that's just a hypothetical right now. And should pvirtuoso continue its current performance, there will be no point to condi mirage whatsoever; pvirtuoso will have better CC and utility on top of the perks of less ramp up and better target swap. So, mirage, still needs to be addressed in performance outside long lived, long phase single target fights.

 

Willbender isn't 37k. Focus virtues Willbender is 41k+ DPS.

 

Staff eles of any spec, including weavers were plenty popular during LNHB days in fractal pugs, they predated dragonhunter stacking in CM's. Soulbeasts became popular later.

 

People don't want easy specs in CM's. Condi alacrigade isn't any easier than power alacrigade, and it is slowly taking over. HB is not easier than druid; it took over. Condi scourge and firebrand certainly require more thought to optimize than dragonhunter did; people still play these specs anyways.  Nobody's playing power reaper despite its supposed forgiving survivability, because it SUCKS. A full gs4+wells+rs4 burst is a fraction of the burst firebrands and scourges put out during exposed, and it's even worse than dragonhunter and soulbeast burst. Condi renegade is plenty popular in raids despite being one of the most difficult condi specs in the game.

[Infusion.7149]

11 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Because Discretize's advice despite your selective reading is that pchrono is still a hindrance to the group since even then it severely underperforms. Don't know how more basic it needs to be put for you to process; Discretize flat out states mesmer sucks in fractals in all its current specs. Should they change the exposed bar and make power specs more attractive, pvirtuoso might be the fix mesmer needed, but that's just a hypothetical right now. And should pvirtuoso continue its current performance, there will be no point to condi mirage whatsoever; pvirtuoso will have better CC and utility on top of the perks of less ramp up and better target swap. So, mirage, still needs to be addressed in performance outside long lived, long phase single target fights.

 

Willbender isn't 37k. Focus virtues Willbender is 41k+ DPS.

 

Staff eles of any spec, including weavers were plenty popular during LNHB days in fractal pugs, they predated dragonhunter stacking in CM's. Soulbeasts became popular later.

 

People don't want easy specs in CM's. Condi alacrigade isn't any easier than power alacrigade, and it is slowly taking over. HB is not easier than druid; it took over. Condi scourge and firebrand certainly require more thought to optimize than dragonhunter did; people still play these specs anyways.  Nobody's playing power reaper despite its supposed forgiving survivability, because it SUCKS. A full gs4+wells+rs4 burst is a fraction of the burst firebrands and scourges put out during exposed, and it's even worse than dragonhunter and soulbeast burst. Condi renegade is plenty popular in raids despite being one of the most difficult condi specs in the game.

Condi mirage is run plenty in raids and so is pChrono. The game isn't balanced solely around fractals. Mirage is a condi spec so it never will perform extremely well outside longer duration fights (including fractal boss fights). If condi FB did not have F1 tome resets it would not exactly perform great against adds either (burn ticks for 1k-ish); condi scourge relies solely on epidemic because otherwise you need to wait for torment + burning ramp.The exposed change was opposed by many, but the one positive to it is that more people run condition so it's not pure power builds everywhere outside raids. It is quite clear that torment and burning in particular are stronger on exposed debuff and scourges and firebrands capitalize off that (as well as condi renegades).

If you mean this willbender, the notes state it is bugged and doing +10% damage vs chilled targets. In addition, the support willbender provides is severely neutered compared to firebrand especially.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsdvYFmFcDs

Staff eles of all types were nerfed heavily in 2018 due to meteor and lava font changes. Even before that they only excelled on large hitboxes. Quantify's site doesn't have old records but if you look at old threads such as these it's blatantly obvious:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6ch3ot/qt_updated_benchmarks_for_all_classes_may_16_2017/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7dtd6o/qt_updated_benchmarks_and_builds_november_7th/

Most times people ask for condi RR because it does 37K benchmark DPS (on par with full cDPS), you won't see people ask for cele + leadership rune or something like that. Therefore saying it is taking over is not really the case. Outside Sunqua Peak you never see people ask for condi alac in fractals as well because of the need for CC from staff 5 (Surge of the Mists) now that consumables have been repeatedly removed from fractals. In addition, condi alac doesn't have the prot uptime of power alacrity renegade since it doesn't use All for One so the support it provides is mainly alacrity , might if you use F1, and CC. The main reason why scourge gained popularity is epidemic for the sorrows/anomaly. Before that people stacked eternal armory firebrands (as opposed to the new Virtues Permeating Wrath firebrands) with sanctuary for CC. So your theory that people don't  want to play easy specs is not reflective of what actually happens.