no one plays raids

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I play games to have fun, because get this...they're games.  People play games for different reasons. Not everyone is playing a game for competitive reasons.  In fact, as the age of the average gamer goes up (it's not in the mid 30s), people come home from work and play games to relax and unwind.  I don't play most games to improve. I play games to have fun. I didn't play mouse trap to improve. I didn't play  monopoly to improve. I don't play a slot machine to improve, but they're all games.  And you know for every person who plays baseball on a competitive level, some people are just going to throw a ball around.

You do realize that, any MMO you go to, regardless of what it is, has content for people from the super casuals to the people who go in depth with optimization, right?  This is also true for almost all games out there.  Every game awards skill and commitment to learning and understanding its mechanics.  Rules and mechanics are kind of what's necessary to be a game, you know.  An interactive piece of media without challenges and a set of rules loses engagement faster than adding engaging content to the game.  As an adult, you should be able to key in on these t hings.  Also I had to take care of my mother full time due to medical reasons for the past 8 months and was able to do full clears of raids and learn several new builds.  If you don't want to be good at what you do so it takes less time, then that's your choice, my dude.

 

Quote

If you think it's okay to throw people into the least popular PvE content in the entire game to get a reward only available in that content, that's fine. That's your opinion. My opinion is that this is simply bad development. Because raids aren't that popular, most people don't like them, and get this. Those people paid MONEY to play this game. It's not a job. It shouldn't be a job.

I think it's perfectly fine for ANet to add whatever content they want to the game.  They have final say in everything and have actual metrics that show what is and isn't going to be a good  addition.  If they find a  way to add another set of legendary armor that takes about the same time and/or effort as the envoy set, I'm behind it.  It's also not bad development for ANet to add content that's engaging.  Open world you can literally turn on auto attack and afk and the events will generally complete.  Players will min/max, even if unintentionally.  Everyone looks for that easy way through something. (I mean look at you, complaining on the forums for an easy way to legendary armor, for instance).  Just because you pour money into the game doesn't necessarily mean you have a valid say in the game direction.  You want a bad example of this, look no further than Old School Runescape and how much it's actually developed over the years compared to the original Runescape (The one that went from runescape to runescape 2 then finally to runescape 3) and how much it has expanded over the years.  Also the game isn't a job.  It's only a job if you make it a job.  If you're not having fun go play something else.  You literally will not die and your build will not cease functionality just because you don't have legendary armor.

 

Quote

If you're going to force me into content I don't like to get those rewards I might do it, eventually. But I'll like the game at lot less. I know other people, quite a few, are in the same boat I am. Playing hours and hours of content we don't enjoy to get something.

You. Are. Not. Forced. Into. This. Content.  You have two other options that are equally as viable.  ANet designed this game so all game modes would be viable.  You not playing th em is your personal choice and to complain about a lack of options while ignoring perfectly valid options is childish. If you want the skin, that's tough because ANet puts pretty good skins behind content rewards as-is.  If it's for the functionality, WvW and PvP can be participated at your own liesure and you can get one full set in a whole year.  I said this before and I'll say it again here.  I don't like PvP, so I'm never ever going to get any of the gizmos or legendary armor from that game mode.  This is perfectly fine.  My opinion wasn't far from your own either until I just decided to try. I got into training runs myself and figured out where to go to organize more and eventually, got my first clear.  Then it started snowballing.  I made friends along the way and eventually got invited into a static t hat could pull full clears off every-so-often for four hours worth of raid time a week.

 

Quote

Let me ask you. Do you really think the game developers want us to play  hours and hours of content we're not having fun playing? Is that really what you think?

Developers want you to play there game, full stop. They want you to be engaged and using the systems they developed.   There's nothing more disheartening as a game dev than to see someone just ignore all the neat interactions you went out of your way to have built in favor of just coasting through the game.

[Cynder.2509]

Raids are what divides the good players from the bad players. Although 95% of raid bosses (even in CM) are far too easy. I remember games that had harder raids. GW2 raids are nothing compared to that. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Now you have Killproof + demanding them to do 20k dps and not die like noobs .

You increased over time the requirements 😛

Highest DPS I've seen as a listed requirement was "Be over the healer in damage" which really isn't hard to do.  Every class in DPS gear does over 10k DPS just auto attacking.

Also not dying like noobs is just a general requirement.  If you're going to stand in all the bad, even in the open world, I'd stop rezing you.

Also, s top accusing 'me' of raising the requirements.  You've never been in one of my raids before.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You do realize that, any MMO you go to, regardless of what it is, has content for people from the super casuals to the people who go in depth with optimization, right?  This is also true for almost all games out there.  Every game awards skill and commitment to learning and understanding its mechanics.  Rules and mechanics are kind of what's necessary to be a game, you know.  An interactive piece of media without challenges and a set of rules loses engagement faster than adding engaging content to the game.  As an adult, you should be able to key in on these t hings.  Also I had to take care of my mother full time due to medical reasons for the past 8 months and was able to do full clears of raids and learn several new builds.  If you don't want to be good at what you do so it takes less time, then that's your choice, my dude.

 

I think it's perfectly fine for ANet to add whatever content they want to the game.  They have final say in everything and have actual metrics that show what is and isn't going to be a good  addition.  If they find a  way to add another set of legendary armor that takes about the same time and/or effort as the envoy set, I'm behind it.  It's also not bad development for ANet to add content that's engaging.  Open world you can literally turn on auto attack and afk and the events will generally complete.  Players will min/max, even if unintentionally.  Everyone looks for that easy way through something. (I mean look at you, complaining on the forums for an easy way to legendary armor, for instance).  Just because you pour money into the game doesn't necessarily mean you have a valid say in the game direction.  You want a bad example of this, look no further than Old School Runescape and how much it's actually developed over the years compared to the original Runescape (The one that went from runescape to runescape 2 then finally to runescape 3) and how much it has expanded over the years.  Also the game isn't a job.  It's only a job if you make it a job.  If you're not having fun go play something else.  You literally will not die and your build will not cease functionality just because you don't have legendary armor.

 

You. Are. Not. Forced. Into. This. Content.  You have two other options that are equally as viable.  ANet designed this game so all game modes would be viable.  You not playing th em is your personal choice and to complain about a lack of options while ignoring perfectly valid options is childish. If you want the skin, that's tough because ANet puts pretty good skins behind content rewards as-is.  If it's for the functionality, WvW and PvP can be participated at your own liesure and you can get one full set in a whole year.  I said this before and I'll say it again here.  I don't like PvP, so I'm never ever going to get any of the gizmos or legendary armor from that game mode.  This is perfectly fine.  My opinion wasn't far from your own either until I just decided to try. I got into training runs myself and figured out where to go to organize more and eventually, got my first clear.  Then it started snowballing.  I made friends along the way and eventually got invited into a static t hat could pull full clears off every-so-often for four hours worth of raid time a week.

 

Developers want you to play there game, full stop. They want you to be engaged and using the systems they developed.   There's nothing more disheartening as a game dev than to see someone just ignore all the neat interactions you went out of your way to have built in favor of just coasting through the game.

Entertainingly I thnk you'd be surprised. I think Anet will introduce another way for more casual players to get legendary armor.  Just because they haven't done it yet, doesn't mean they don't have it planned. They're doing a lot of stuff right now, but don't be surprised when it happens.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

9 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Entertainingly I thnk you'd be surprised. I think Anet will introduce another way for more casual players to get legendary armor.  Just because they haven't done it yet, doesn't mean they don't have it planned. They're doing a lot of stuff right now, but don't be surprised when it happens.

Sure, keep pretending.  It's liable to cost about as much as a gen 2 legendary per piece if it's not tied to any content.

[Vayne.8563]

5 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Sure, keep pretending.  It's liable to cost about as much as a gen 2 legendary per piece if it's not tied to any content.

I didn't say anything about it not being tied to content. Nice way to invent what I've said.  I have 2 legendary accessories that I crafted without going into a raid or fractal.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I didn't say anything about it not being tied to content. Nice way to invent what I've said.  I have 2 legendary accessories that I crafted without going into a raid or fractal.

I didn't invent kitten, lmao.  Get over yourself.  What content would the new legendary armor be tied to?  Living world?  It could be, but then it'd likely require you doing the strike missions that'd come with that episode post EoD.  You'd also have to wait either 18-24 months for the full set in all weights (6 episodes; 3-4 months between each), or 54-72 months (18 episodes; 3-4 months between each) if ANet decided to piecemeal it out individually.  And you'd likely still have to do challenging group content to acquire them.  It's not like ANet's going to add new EoD strikes and not give them unique rewards.

[Vayne.8563]

11 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I didn't invent kitten, lmao.  Get over yourself.  What content would the new legendary armor be tied to?  Living world?  It could be, but then it'd likely require you doing the strike missions that'd come with that episode post EoD.  You'd also have to wait either 18-24 months for the full set in all weights (6 episodes; 3-4 months between each), or 54-72 months (18 episodes; 3-4 months between each) if ANet decided to piecemeal it out individually.  And you'd likely still have to do challenging group content to acquire them.  It's not like ANet's going to add new EoD strikes and not give them unique rewards.

You have such a narrow and selective view of what this game is about, it's quite sad.  Time will tell. People said there wouldn't be another expansion, I said there would. Time proved me right.  People said there wouldn't be mounts, I believed there would. And I believe that they'll be adding a way to get legendary armor for people who don't raid.  Not right away, but I'm sure it will happen.

When they put that in raids, they thought raids would be more popular. Anet has always moved slowly to do stuff like this, it doesn't mean it won't be done. Hell I'm working on a legendary amulet right now and it's all story and open world. So why can't they do this with armor?  I think you know less about the intention of the devs than you think you do.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

10 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You have such a narrow and selective view of what this game is about, it's quite sad.  Time will tell. People said there wouldn't be another expansion, I said there would. Time proved me right.  People said there wouldn't be mounts, I believed there would. And I believe that they'll be adding a way to get legendary armor for people who don't raid.  Not right away, but I'm sure it will happen.

When they put that in raids, they thought raids would be more popular. Anet has always moved slowly to do stuff like this, it doesn't mean it won't be done. Hell I'm working on a legendary amulet right now and it's all story and open world. So why can't they do this with armor?  I think you know less about the intention of the devs than you think you do.

I mean, ANet said there wouldn't be another expansion, that all we'd be getting is Icebrood Saga (This is while they were working on side projects, remember?); but then the layoffs happened and we got EoD in the works.  Which threw a wrench into EoD's story and then we got champions.  ANet also said there were no plans for mounts, capes, etc; that backpieces wouldn't be dyeable and  that there wouldn't be any raids or armor progression.  But look at what happened; We got mounts, capes, dyeable backpieces, raids, and armor progression in the sense of exotic to ascended.

What's the difference here?  Easy.  ANet's not said a darn thing about legendary armor accessibility at all.  They've mentioned everything else there in some fashion in the history of the game.

But also, you know about as much as I do on the intention of the devs.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Vayne.8563]

3 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I mean, ANet said there wouldn't be another expansion, that all we'd be getting is Icebrood Saga (This is while they were working on side projects, remember?); but then the layoffs happened and we got EoD in the works.  Which threw a wrench into EoD's story and then we got champions.  ANet also said there were no plans for mounts, capes, etc; that backpieces wouldn't be dyeable and  that there wouldn't be any raids or armor progression.  But look at what happened; We got mounts, capes, dyeable backpieces, raids, and armor progression in the sense of exotic to ascended.

What's the difference here?  Easy.  ANet's not said a darn thing about legendary armor accessibility at all.  They've mentioned everything else there in some fashion in the history of the game.

But also, you know about as much as I do on the intention of the devs.

I've had four devs in my guild over the years and talked to a couple of them extensively. People really don't know as much as they think about the intention of the devs...including me.

 

That said, Anet never said there would never be another expansion only that they weren't currently working on one. There have been a few times in the past they said they wanted to deliver everything through the living world, but I've always said there would be an expansion even when Anet was saying their wouldn't be. It's because I recognized the pressure from the community and saw that that pressure wouldn't be going away.  This happened both before HoT was announced, when I said there would be an expansion and many on the forums said there wouldn't, and again recently before EoD was announced.

Anet might not have expected to make an expansion, but I absolutely believed and said publicly that I believed an expansion would come out.

Like everyone else, devs have differences and different motivations. There are devs who would love to put more challenging content into the game, and that's something they really enjoy working on.  There are also people who look at the numbers and see how many people avail themselves of that difficult content as a percentage of the playerbase. They weren't even going to leave the Marionette in, because their own thought process was that it was too hard, but then they saw the community getting better at it and they decided to put it back in.  This thought process of not leaving it in because it's too hard sort of contradicts your thought process about this game and challenging content. They want people to play content and not even people play raids to continue to support them.

There are undoubtedly devs that would like to see raid participation increased, but I'm not sure that's going to happen. Anet made a game where the open world is extremely casual and easy, they even nerfed Orr from it's original not so hard beginnings.  So at the end of the day, they're going to go where the players lead them because that's really their job.

When they see not enough people raiding thus no one getting legendary armor in PvE, they'll add a way to get it, maybe grudgingly for some of them, but they'll add it. You don't have to believe me. It won't change the demographics of this game.

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

When they see not enough people raiding thus no one getting legendary armor in PvE

And yet people keep getting it. What's up with these baseless statements that try to bend the reality in the direction you want it to be?

And I guess everything from my previous post is clear now? So please don't pretend anymore that you're somehow being forced to play what you don't want to play.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And yet people keep getting it. What's up with these baseless statements that try to bend the reality in the direction you want it to be?

You're arguing with someone who  thinks they know best and can't possibly be wrong.  Tread carefully.

[Aeis.8519]

Another thread about raids?  I see some familiar faces, too.  I get a bingo if this thread gets to ten pages.

[mossmere.9503]

I've read this whole thread. Somewhere back on page 3-5 ish there was some strange implication that players only do raids for legendary armor. WHAT?

I've played all the game content except for raids but I'm looking forward to that day. It has nothing to do with getting legendary stuff either. Sure loots great (I love loot, who doesn't?) but that is not my reason for wanting to raid. It's the accomplishment. Learning the raid and then successfully completing it? There's no greater feeling to me. Also bonus, mastery points, which also give me a sense of accomplishment.  That's it, my sole reason for wanting to raid, accomplishment.  If that is what drives me, it will also drive others. So please drop the whole peeps only raid for loot. What silliness. 

 

Also, the whole raids are dead is hogwash and I haven't even been in them yet! There are websites, builds, videos, guides and guilds wholly dedicated just to raids. And these are updated quite regularly. It may be a smaller subgroup then pve, but so is pvp, strikes and wvw. None of which are dead. 

 

Just wanted to point that out from a not there yet player. If I can see this, so can others. Upwards and onwards...

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

11 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Highest DPS I've seen as a listed requirement was "Be over the healer in damage" which really isn't hard to do.  Every class in DPS gear does over 10k DPS just auto attacking.

Also not dying like noobs is just a general requirement.  If you're going to stand in all the bad, even in the open world, I'd stop rezing you.

Also, s top accusing 'me' of raising the requirements.  You've never been in one of my raids before.

You listed me the history of Dungeons and Raids

I was there on both from 5k achiv + only War / Guardian + link gear > to  do your research , do 20k , don't you dare die once , link 100 LI-KP .

So don't play me the victim :P

 

You go in this extent to this curcullar conversation , but you deny people an easy mode :P

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

You listed me the history of Dungeons and Raids

I was there on both from 5k achiv + only War / Guardian + link gear > to  do your research , do 20k , don't you dare die once , link 100 LI-KP .

So don't play me the victim 😛

 

You go in this extent to this curcullar conversation , but you deny people an easy mode 😛

I listed exactly what's common on the LFG and what generally fills first before all the stupid high requirements. You know why those groups with those high requirements are the only thing you really see, right?  Simple solution here; the ones with lesser requirements fill up first, thus removing them from the listings.  If you posted your own group on the LFG with those simpler requirements, you'd have a group that'd fill up fast too.

 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

21 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Right, but you don't think you know best....pot meet kettle. It's so funny how people who run out of arguments have to resort to personal attacks. 

Your argumentation is basically "I feel this" and "I have several sources (But can't provide them; just take my word for it!)" or arguments from authority.  There's zero reason to engage with someone like you.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I listed exactly what's common on the LFG and what generally fills first before all the stupid high requirements. You know why those groups with those high requirements are the only thing you really see, right?  Simple solution here; the ones with lesser requirements fill up first, thus removing them from the listings.  If you posted your own group on the LFG with those simpler requirements, you'd have a group that'd fill up fast too.

 

 

If Fractal and Raids LFG fills fast enought , i wonder why the company didnt' mention that they discontinued Fractal too .

(Do you think they are going to ? Like more open world stuff and limiting players  to 5 ?)

Edited September 27, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

19 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

 

If Fractal and Raids LFG fills fast enought , i wonder why the company didnt' mention that they discontinued Fractal too .

(Do you think they are going to ? Like more open world stuff and limiting players  to 5 ?)

Cancel fractals?  We got a new fractal and CM last year relating to Cantha.  The work that's going on now is definitely devoted to the upcoming expansion.  That's why there hasn't been any new LW releases since the end of Icebrood Saga with chapter 4 of champions in May.  It's a bit beyond the 4 month mark!  That must mean they're canceling them! (Just so you know, that bit about canceling LW was sarcasm.)

Edited September 27, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Vilin.8056]

13 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

I'm not really sure why these topics don't get locked. Anet doesn't seem interested in the discussion or feedback seeing as how they've decided to move on from Raids. The posters here are the exact same people as any topic complaining either about raid difficulty or raid accessibility or even the prospect of legendary armor being obtainable through some other means in PvE.

A lot of the things being said to other players here are kind of rude. They often involve claiming the person who wants it to be easier is bad or lazy or wants to be carried, because of its supposed status as hardcore content it's supposed to be hard. And then turning around and saying "well it's actually easy to learn the mechanics if you just try". All you need is basic understanding to be welcomed, and also, before being welcomed, learn a rotation to hit high dps, also a guild can't forget this is group content, and this is all a normal part of playing this game as if by playing other content you would already know. The discussion just isn't very constructive, the person who is talking about struggling is being chastised for having problems. And the people who want raids to stay the way they are seem to take all of this discussion fairly personally.

I agree with what @Crono.4197 has said. Also you don't generally see people complaining about a barrier to entry into fractal content or not being able to experience the really neat storytelling in some of them. Because the game provides a gameplay mode for learning with reduced rewards. I don't see LFG flooded with "Selling T4 Dailies" instead of actual groups because a healthy number of experienced and newish players reside in the T4 LFG together.

Both sides are taking it personally and equally rude with the casual side claiming raiders are 1~5% minority, while the hardcore side claim casuals side as lazy. There's still truths with both claims, both stands for a failure in the game design.

 

The problem is that many of the struggles illustrated by a familiar yet very frequent contender here isn't exactly honest, and mostly are carefully constructed algorithms of words solely for the purpose of forum dueling for personal egos.

 

I agree this thread needs to be locked. The forum moderater has been laughable with that post so far, we need real moderation for trolling to maintain a constructive disscussion, instead of some lazy one liners.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Aeis.8519]

1 minute ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Both sides are taking it personally and equally rude with the casual side claiming raiders are 1~5% minority, while the hardcore side claim casuals side as lazy. There's still truths with both claims, both stands for a failure in the game design.

 

The problem is that many of the struggles illustrated by some familiar contenders here isn't exactly honest, and mostly are carefully constructed algorithms of words solely for the purpose of forum dueling for personal egos.

 

I agree this thread needs to be locked. The forum moderater has been laughable with that post so far, we need real moderation for trolling to maintain a constructive disscussion, instead of some lazy one liners.

I'd say at least half the people in here are trolls, which is why I've said nothing constructive.  Even the premise of this thread is just misguided in its nature. If there's going to be any middle ground found, it's not going to be with the people here at all until they can sit and actually talk with one another without taunting each other about the shortcomings of their playstyles.

[Vilin.8056]

39 minutes ago, Aeis.8519 said:

I'd say at least half the people in here are trolls, which is why I've said nothing constructive.  Even the premise of this thread is just misguided in its nature. If there's going to be any middle ground found, it's not going to be with the people here at all until they can sit and actually talk with one another without taunting each other about the shortcomings of their playstyles.

As long as this game relies upon community teaching for player progressions, criticizing each other for shortcomings of their play skill(or style) will remain an essential element of this game.

However, in reality we cannot expect gamers to possess a high proficiency in people management and communications skills,  many of which require real life career training to succeed on a wide scale. Thus the center of issues around many of this game's high end contents.

This is why other MMOs prefer gearscore as the sole approach of this issue. But then again, GW2 wouldn't be GW2 if it isn't a skill based intead of a gearscore based game.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Fuchslein.8639]

I hope legy armor gets a easy peasy pve path like legy weapon and jewelery so this Discussion comes to an end. Althougt, salty Player always find ways to talk bad about things they don't like. Raid discussions were there even before the legy armor ...

[CasualElitist.8795]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:24 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

But for PvE no, it has to be hard? Why? Because some players say so? 

Have you actually tried raids or do you just repeat what people are jabbering about? Raids are not hard. It's a myth being repeated over and over again by people who didn't make any effort to try them. I come from a raid training server with 8k+ members who somehow managed to enter raids, not being kicked, clear bosses and get their achievements, armor, whatever they needed. And there are multiple servers/guilds like that. But instead of joining and actually trying, people choose to join random lfgs and expect to be welcomed with arms wide open with their openworld autoattack build with random gear stats like it's some openworld boss. Nice memeeeeeeeee

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, CasualElitist.8795 said:

Have you actually tried raids or do you just repeat what people are jabbering about? Raids are not hard. It's a myth being repeated over and over again by people who didn't make any effort to try them. I come from a raid training server with 8k+ members who somehow managed to enter raids, not being kicked, clear bosses and get their achievements, armor, whatever they needed. And there are multiple servers/guilds like that. But instead of joining and actually trying, people choose to join random lfgs and expect to be welcomed with arms wide open with their openworld autoattack build with random gear stats like it's some openworld boss. Nice memeeeeeeeee

I've killed several of the raid bosses so far.  It's not so much hard as finicky.  Finding the right combinations the right group the right stats. Showing up a specific time or losing your spot.  When I do fractals I worry about none of that.  The thing is I don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy the process of raids. I don't enjoy counting down in boss fights to this phase to stay out of circles. It's the exact opposite reason I play this game. It's not fun for me.

 

The other guy was talking about challenging content and I was responding to him.