Are the Elder Dragon natural ?

[Goettel.4389]

I like my dragons natural.

[Tyson.5160]

15 hours ago, Pax.3548 said:

"But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple." None of these words even slightly show Balthazar repented about his action, just like a rare gesture of sportsmanship did he ordered kaolai inducted into the temple.

 

I just think you won't accept the possibilyty Balthazar had serious anger management that in common perspective could be define into a brutal god of war, not an honorable god . I want you to quote the stories and records you seem to insinuate the forgotten, the centaurs and the Margonite had about Balthazar, that can show a glimpse that he was an honorable God.

 

You lessen the importance of a objective recorded story on a human temple (of people who believed in Balthazar), yet this is the one wall you won't break in your attempt to convince he was an honorable god, if you can't show similar objective and of same importance story.

I think it shows Balthazar’s darker side, which all human beings have, and is further displayed by Balthazar in PoF.  I never had an issue with Balthazar in PoF.  He wanted to wage war against the dragons, the rest of the pantheon didn’t agree, which resulted in another fit of anger, which resulted in his banishment. Now feeling betrayed, Balthazar wants to kill the dragons gain their power and get revenge against his former comrades.
 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:43 PM, Pax.3548 said:

"But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple." None of these words even slightly show Balthazar repented about his action, just like a rare gesture of sportsmanship did he ordered kaolai inducted into the temple.

Maybe it's a rare gesture because he doesn't have constant anger issues.

And honestly, the second half you didn't bold and underline is that show of repentence.

On 10/5/2021 at 9:43 PM, Pax.3548 said:

I just think you won't accept the possibilyty Balthazar had serious anger management that in common perspective could be define into a brutal god of war, not an honorable god . I want you to quote the stories and records you seem to insinuate the forgotten, the centaurs and the Margonite had about Balthazar, that can show a glimpse that he was an honorable God.

Why would one situation result in "serious anger management" to you though?

 

Sadly, we don't have quotes of the exact stories of the forgotten, centaurs, and Margonites had on Balthazar, but the fact that they revere him as a god of honor goes miles. Like you said, they put a recorded story on a human temple 

On 10/5/2021 at 9:43 PM, Pax.3548 said:

You lessen the importance of a objective recorded story on a human temple (of people who believed in Balthazar),

Correction, this temple is not for reverence of Balthazar, but the heroes and ancestors of Canthan descent. The statues of the five (and probably post-NF, six) take a back seat to these eight figures by being placed in Zin Ku Corridor.

 

And that's a key thing to understand. That story isn't meant to highlight Balthazar's actions or personality. It's meant to highlight Kaolai's actions and personality. A story of a mortal who was pitted against a god.

 

Your argument is like taking Metamorphoses by Ovid and its darker depiction of the gods as the sole defining truth of those gods' personalities, actions, and behavior. All the while ignoring the fact that Ovid detested authoritarian figures and wrote the gods in a way that is sometimes contradictory to most (if not every) depiction of the gods.

 

The story presented in a location or by an author is used to reflect the purpose of the location or the author's intent. In this case, as said, it's depicting the story of a mortal who confronted a god for the sake of the people - it's not a story about the god, but the mortal. As such, it's a story specifically highlighted to embolden the mortal rather than the god.

 

Of course the same argument goes inversely for the other stories on the gods we have, which are designed to embolden the god over the mortals or other figures. So naturally they'll highlight the gods' good side. But I acknowledge this. I am not saying Balthazar is flawless, afterall, which is what those stories would proclaim. I'm admitting he has flaws, but I am also arguing that those negative aspects do not take away his positive aspects.

 

 

TL;DR

One story does not define the entire personality of an individual, especially when that story depicts them specifically as a protagonist or antagonist. A person, god included, can be honorable while also having occasional anger issues.

 

[Pax.3548]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

TL;DR

One story does not define the entire personality of an individual, especially when that story depicts them specifically as a protagonist or antagonist. A person, god included, can be honorable while also having occasional anger issues.

 

In my opinion, no matter what, no one, and no god either, can call themselves honorable if they do dishonorable things just because they can't control themselves while angered, thats a pretty cheap excuse, after all, being honorable is a matter of actions and behaviour, not belief.

The same goes for defining someone as honorable, and a god doesn't have to be honorable to have plenty of followers, our own history has plenty examples of that, anyway this is clearly open to debate but don't be stating to people he was honorable like a fact, because clearly that is up to each one to decide, I personally think he wasn't after all the info and actions we got about him so far, while you clearly think otherwise, but don't treat this like a proved fact or someone else, if not me, will come refuting that again.

[Dawanarth.4601]

Isn't Balty based on Ares/Mars ? Like even in the stories/myths he wasn't a great god and often was depicted as a bloodthirsty god that cared not for his follower (The other main god of war, Athena was instead seen as a good god)

 

 

[Rognik.2579]

1 hour ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

Isn't Balty based on Ares/Mars ? Like even in the stories/myths he wasn't a great god and often was depicted as a bloodthirsty god that cared not for his follower (The other main god of war, Athena was instead seen as a good god)

 

 

Only in the loosest sense. None of them are a one-for-one parallel. Just because Balthazar is a god of war, that doesn't mean that he has the same personality as Ares, or Tyr or any other god of war. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Pax.3548 said:

In my opinion, no matter what, no one, and no god either, can call themselves honorable if they do dishonorable things just because they can't control themselves while angered, thats a pretty cheap excuse, after all, being honorable is a matter of actions and behaviour, not belief.

A single action shouldn't define a person's entire life, though. That's a very rigid and narrow viewpoint.

Because by that argument NO ONE would be considered honorable, I'm sure.

Everyone has minor sins and emotions that they aren't always in control of. And imperfect, fallible gods are no different.

 

Honestly, I'd be more concerned over a god of war who doesn't have a single story about him giving in to emotions in the heat of the moment, because that's borderline (or actual) psychopathy - the lacking empathy and emotional understanding.

 

The key factor isn't that Balthazar lost control of his anger - which is by far not dishonorable - but rather how he reacted to the act of losing control of his anger. And his reaction was in repenting through inducting Kaolai into Tahnnakai Temple and immortalizing him as a famed hero of Cantha.

 

If repenting for your unintentional actions is dishonorable, then I don't know what you can consider honorable.

 

2 hours ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

Isn't Balty based on Ares/Mars ? Like even in the stories/myths he wasn't a great god and often was depicted as a bloodthirsty god that cared not for his follower (The other main god of war, Athena was instead seen as a good god)

There's no explicit influence for Balthazar, or any of the gods for that matter, but his depiction in GW1 is more akin to Athena than Ares, but does have a bit of Ares in him (most notably being the Kaolai story).

Basically, Athena was the goddess of the "good side" of war (strategy, cunning, honor), while Ares was the god of the "bad side" of war (bloodshed, slaughter, continuous conflict).

In GW2, there's a lot more influence from Ares though, and I feel this derives a lot from the decades' increased disdain for and attention to warfare in America. Compared to back in 2005-2007, there's a much higher rate of "war is bad" in media in the 2010s.

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

is there a quick way to get a summary of ingame sources about Balthazar.

i do know of one of the other scriptures, but what are the other sources?

this one does tell a more honorable story

 

For weeks did the battle rage on, and those who had taken up the mantle of war grew weary and their courage began to falter.

Then did Balthazar, god of war and fire, appear to the soldiers, carrying with him a grand sword that did glow with such brilliance it blinded any who looked upon it. When he spoke, His voice was like thunder, and it shook the ground with force.

Then saith He, "Lift up thy weapons. For you are my soldiers, and must you be steadfast, strong, and brave of heart. They who neither hesitate nor stumble shall be rewarded. Then shall you have glory. Then shall your deeds be remembered for eternity."

And then did release from His sword a hundred thousand flames, which encircled the soldiers. For this was the fire of courage, and forthwith did they follow the god into battle without fear or hesitation. Thence was the enemy struck down.

 

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

Kaolai's story only proved that Balthazar was a fallible god like the others, it doesn't say he needed anger management. There's four total stories and scriptures related to Balthazar and his honourable work, five if we count the fact that he accepted Kaolai as a worthy rival to the point that he inducted him into Tahnnakai Temple.

The Parable of Balthazar spoke of how he blessed those who fought valiantly in the battlefield and punished a coward who took advantage of those who actually fought and died in the war mentioned in the parable. It even said he took the burden of taking out the cowardly man who took advantage of those people because the valiant soldiers who died had been burdened by said coward for too long (think along the lines of a general cowering behind their soldiers because they're probably "ranked higher").

Virtues of Balthazar speak of how his teachings were not about mindless bloodshed but rather taking action when it is needed most and taking on the necessary steps in order to protect others: 

To the Zaishen, it's never about killing, but killing to secure safety for the many.
Not to wage wars, but to win wars.
Not to kill, but to protect.

We also have the War Eternal quote as well as the scriptures shown above, and none of them mention Balthazar having any issue with anger or killing because he wants war. The only time he's ever mentioned to incite war is during his arrival in Tyria, which he inspired humans to take Tyria for themselves, however that was simply another mistake of his because he thought the other races wouldn't fight back. Aside from that, there's no other mention of him having anger issues. GW2 literally did a 180 on his personality.

Edited October 8, 2021 by ChronoPinoyX.7923

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

It's not so much a 180 as being incredibly bitter about having been stripped of his powers by those who decided the best way to protect people was to flee (the other 5 gods).  At that point, his motivations went from "protecting mortals" to "show the other 5 how wrong they were for leaving a winnable battle," which I feel is entirely in his character.  Viewing them as cowards, but suddenly no longer having the ability to actually do anything to them.

 

Now, whether his assessment of "Gods vs Elder Dragons" was accurate or not is another story, as it appears him being stripped of his powers and imprisoned happened before GW2 canonically started, and thus he didn't even have an example of an elder dragon dying to point to.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180