The Mechanist let down and improvement ideas

[Nephalem.8921]

10 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

well we already know that giving the mech boons and it using our stats is happening.  The struggle to hit moving targets shouldn't be a problem with the ranged option it has, either, though that does limit you to one of three talent choices just to avoid that issue.

No you dont have a boonshare trait like fortifying bond. You cant give it boons in 5/10 player settings because of boon priority unless somebody manages to stay far enough away to have only 8 allies + you in range.

It shares only some stats. Either 100% condi, 50% power or 100% healing power/concentration. All other non vita/toughness stats just 25%. You cant share any modifiers like pinpoint, modified ammunition. It will most likely not even critcap on power. These mods make up a huge part of your damage. The ranged option is a projectile and a pretty slow moving one. you can very easily sidestep projectiles in pvp.

the golem needs to do 7-8k dps for a decent condi spec. The limitations mean that it will also do close to that solo which would create a very op afk farm build or semi afk build. Pet builds in this game just create problems. The engine isnt made for pets. You see this with spirit weapon / phantasm coding and the countless bugs mesmer phantasms had or still have thanks to the spaghetti solutions.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Nephalem.8921

[Face Eater.6179]

The biggest problem i see right now, is that every single trait in this espec is about buffing your mech.

This means that when your mech dies you lose AN ENTIRE TRAIT LINE until you can summon it again. Combine this with the loss of toolbelt skills, and the engineer becomes next to useless whilst the mech is dead. 

The only way to make this tradeoff worth it would be to make the mech so massively overtuned that its worth the risk of losing it.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Face Eater.6179

[Kodama.6453]

19 minutes ago, Face Eater.6179 said:

The biggest problem i see right now, is that every single trait in this espec is about buffing your mech.

This means that when your mech dies you lose AN ENTIRE TRAIT LINE until you can summon it again. Combine this with the loss of toolbelt skills, and the engineer becomes next to useless whilst the mech is dead. 

The only way to make this tradeoff worth it would be to make the mech so massively overtuned that its worth the risk of losing it.

I fear that this becomes a trend for engineer.

Holosmith was the same, every single trait in holosmith is about adjusting the behaviour of the photon forge and nothing else. Now mechanist does the same thing.

It seems that Anet thinks this is how elite spec designs for us in the future should work... not a fan of the thought to always just have traits which resolve around our class mechanic. But at least for holosmith, the enemy couldn't straight up delete your trait line by attacking an AI.

Add on top that CMC was making fun of our AI mech having such bad behaviour as aimlessly strolling all over the place for no reason... It feels like engineer is just an intern joke for them.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[schloumou.3982]

7 hours ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

Christ's sake, beta is next week and you can't even WAIT till then to give feedback? How are we gonna agree on something we only SEE but have not yet tested? Its like saying the food doesn't taste good from seeing a picture without tasting it first

You know we have been eating a lot of food for the last eight years and if you show me pictures of a sandwich my mom made i have a pretty good understanding how it will taste. This subforum is full of role players telling long time engi mains they don't know kitten. But what  we all know is that none of these clowns will show their faces in any competitive game mode.

Edited October 23, 2021 by schloumou.3982

[Xanadrine.4352]

5 hours ago, Face Eater.6179 said:

The biggest problem i see right now, is that every single trait in this espec is about buffing your mech.

This means that when your mech dies you lose AN ENTIRE TRAIT LINE until you can summon it again. Combine this with the loss of toolbelt skills, and the engineer becomes next to useless whilst the mech is dead. 

The only way to make this tradeoff worth it would be to make the mech so massively overtuned that its worth the risk of losing it.

Didnt someone say the mech has 45k hp and a breakbar

[santenal.1054]

13 hours ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

Christ's sake, beta is next week and you can't even WAIT till then to give feedback? How are we gonna agree on something we only SEE but have not yet tested? Its like saying the food doesn't taste good from seeing a picture without tasting it first

 Your analogy makes no sense. Any half decent theorycrafter can see the weaknesses of a build/class before even playing/testing.

Edited October 23, 2021 by santenal.1054

[iKeostuKen.2738]

8 minutes ago, santenal.1054 said:

 Your analogy makes no sense. Any half decent theorycrafter can see the weaknesses of a build/class before even playing/testing.

Any half decent theorycrafter would be able to come up with a build that works around said weaknesses. Waiting to test it for ourselves would be the best choice instead of mindlessly complaining about things we don't know for sure about.

[santenal.1054]

26 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

Any half decent theorycrafter would be able to come up with a build that works around said weaknesses. Waiting to test it for ourselves would be the best choice instead of mindlessly complaining about things we don't know for sure about.

Any half decent theorycrafter would have already noticed that they are gonna lack the necessary available skills when the mech isn't around. No amount of theorycrafting/combat experience can make up for that.

Edited October 23, 2021 by santenal.1054

[Ultramex.1506]

51 minutes ago, santenal.1054 said:

 Your analogy makes no sense. Any half decent theorycrafter can see the weaknesses of a build/class before even playing/testing.

You know what even better? Live testing

Edited October 23, 2021 by Ultramex.1506

[santenal.1054]

18 minutes ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

You know what even better? Live testing

 

There is no NEED to test an elite spec of which I already know that it is impossible to create good builds with. (for my gamemode/playstyle)

I am nevertheless going to toy around with the mechanist, I cant deny the mech looks fun to play with.

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by santenal.1054

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

For the most part, theory-crafters like myself and others here can identify, when specs are badly designed. All the EOD specs are designed pretty bad…and It’s no surprise by just glancing at how these traits work, that it is a bad designed spec…along with all the others.

 

even if the mech is super powerful and monstrous AI,  doesn’t mean either that it is “good” design.

 

The first issue I see is that most of the skills are inherently numerical…where things just do damage. Maybe 1s if cripple or 3s of vuln. The mech is also inherently numerical as the traits are tied to what stats the mech gets.

Second issue is how self contained it is. Like other have mentioned already, the spec lacks synergy with its other specs with the exception of the explosion trait. Lack of synergy is just…bad design. Things interacting in different ways is critical to complexity. All that this spec will be, is a first person AI shooter where the enemy is contending against an enemies stats rather then well…skillful gameplay and interesting tactics. That’s the issue of numerical, non interactive design like this versus, interactive, complex design which spurs ingenuity and well…actual fun.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Ultramex.1506]

5 minutes ago, santenal.1054 said:

 

There is no NEED to test an elite spec of which I already know that it is impossible to create good builds with. (for my gamemode/playstyle)

I am going to toy around with the mechanist though, I cant deny the mech looks fun to play with.

 

To you maybe, personally i firmly believe in testing before forming opinion, until then all I see are exaggeration but you do you.

[santenal.1054]

24 minutes ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

To you maybe, personally i firmly believe in testing before forming opinion, until then all I see are exaggeration but you do you.

OK, good for you. Testing is one of the middle/later stages of my build crafting procedure (with the exception of testing individual skills/traits/mechanics) and the mechanist doesn't even survive the first stage (the theorycrafting part).

Edited October 23, 2021 by santenal.1054

[Random Wax Orc.7695]

8 minutes ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

To you maybe, personally i firmly believe in testing before forming opinion, until then all I see are exaggeration but you do you.

The claim of exaggeration is an opinion that has already been formed.  We should hold ourselves to at least the same standard we proselytize to others.

Let the theorycrafters dissect the available information, point out already apparent weaknesses and problems, and generally do what they do.  There is no need to fight them... Mechanist isn't going to vanish or be ruined by early feedback.  Theorycrafters are on your side, and what they do can only help because otherwise their feedback will be ignored.  There are no tribes here, just players... with the possible exception of non-Engineer players trolling the forum for fun or to maintain their OP class power balance. 😉

[iKeostuKen.2738]

59 minutes ago, santenal.1054 said:

Any half decent theorycrafter would have already noticed that they are gonna lack the necessary available skills when the mech isn't around. No amount of theorycrafting/combat experience can make up for that.

So tell me how durable our mechs are. Does our elite bring them back? Do they obtain our 40% protection increase from taking overshield trait? Does alacrity reduce the cooldown of them coming back?

[santenal.1054]

10 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

So tell me how durable our mechs are. Does our elite bring them back? Do they obtain our 40% protection increase from taking overshield trait? Does alacrity reduce the cooldown of them coming back?

It doesn't mather how good a mech is (it will get nerfed in due time anyway), a dead mech is the problem and it is unlikely that they will make the mech virtually immortal (be it due to sustain or low cooldown). How many seconds do you think you can survive with only your #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 and #0 skills against (an)other player(s)?

Edited October 23, 2021 by santenal.1054

[lorddarkflare.9186]

The mech being unavailable is exactly like using all your toolbelt cooldowns and overheating in Photon Forge

 

That is a 15 ~ 50 second penalty with an option to make it a 5 ~ 35 second penalty. Depending on traits and which toolbelt skills you are packing.

 

My point? Play recklessly and getting your mech killed has analogue in the current game where tools you previously had are unavailable to you for potentially long periods of time. The difference here is that due to the mech's theoretical power, we are getting locked out much longer.

 

So the worst case for Holosmith is a variable 50 seconds for toolbelt and 15 seconds for the  forge mechanic with a chunk of your health lost. Worst case for Mechanist is 100 seconds with the ability to use up your elite to cancel the cooldown instead.

 

No amount  of power the class can have is worth 100 seconds of not having your class ability, but based on how things are balanced, we are getting a lot for it.

 

I think a great compromise would be reducing the elite recharge to 30 seconds. Since we cannot give up a grandmaster to make the penalty less fierce, we give up an elite.

[santenal.1054]

22 minutes ago, lorddarkflare.9186 said:

The mech being unavailable is exactly like using all your toolbelt cooldowns and overheating in Photon Forge

 

That is a 15 ~ 50 second penalty with an option to make it a 5 ~ 35 second penalty. Depending on traits and which toolbelt skills you are packing.

 

My point? Play recklessly and getting your mech killed has analogue in the current game where tools you previously had are unavailable to you for potentially long periods of time. The difference here is that due to the mech's theoretical power, we are getting locked out much longer.

 

So the worst case for Holosmith is a variable 50 seconds for toolbelt and 15 seconds for the  forge mechanic with a chunk of your health lost. Worst case for Mechanist is 100 seconds with the ability to use up your elite to cancel the cooldown instead.

 

No amount  of power the class can have is worth 100 seconds of not having your class ability, but based on how things are balanced, we are getting a lot for it.

 

I think a great compromise would be reducing the elite recharge to 30 seconds. Since we cannot give up a grandmaster to make the penalty less fierce, we give up an elite.

 

Overheating is not something you do on a holosmith (unless you really messed up or did it intentionally) because it can be avoided entirely. You can't however avoid the mech from taking damage and losing your mech commands (not even by kindly asking your enemy to leave the mech alone).

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by santenal.1054

[iKeostuKen.2738]

1 hour ago, santenal.1054 said:

It doesn't mather how good a mech is (it will get nerfed in due time anyway), a dead mech is the problem and it is unlikely that they will make the mech virtually immortal (be it due to sustain or low cooldown). How many seconds do you think you can survive with only your #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 and #0 skills against (an)other player(s)?

If you dont understand how hard it is to take down a mech or its capabilities then crying about its counter play is silly. Anet could decide to reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds on death and with alacrity it would be reduce to 24 seconds. If the elite skill brings it back that's even less of a worry. If it is effected by power wrench trait then it is even less of a issue.

 

And you can actually survive for a while with the right setup and build.

[santenal.1054]

4 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

If you dont understand how hard it is to take down a mech or its capabilities then crying about its counter play is silly. Anet could decide to reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds on death and with alacrity it would be reduce to 24 seconds. If the elite skill brings it back that's even less of a worry. If it is effected by power wrench trait then it is even less of a issue.

 

And you can actually survive for a while with the right setup and build.

You underestimate the speed with which a condi build will be able to melt away that mech and there is not much you will be able to do about it (how many new condi cleansing skills did mechanist get again? None? you lost more condi cleansing skills than you got)  . So unless they make  mech uptime near permanent (which I highly doubt they will allow, making its death futile)  It doesn't look good for the mechanist.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

42 minutes ago, santenal.1054 said:

You underestimate the speed with which a condi build will be able to melt away that mech and there is not much you will be able to do about it (how many new condi cleansing skills did mechanist get again? None? you lost more condi cleansing skills than you got)  . So unless they make  mech uptime near permanent (which I highly doubt they will allow, making its death futile)  It doesn't look good for the mechanist.

I mean, the engineer itself has condi cleansing abilities no? You understand that you have to take care of the pet right? 

And we didnt really lose our strong condi cleansing abilities. We have 2 on elixir gun and our shield abilities also give us condi cleanse. Mech itself also cleanses condos. 

[santenal.1054]

7 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

I mean, the engineer itself has condi cleansing abilities no? You understand that you have to take care of the pet right? 

And we didnt really lose our strong condi cleansing abilities. We have 2 on elixir gun and our shield abilities also give us condi cleanse. Mech itself also cleanses condos. 

yea it has a condi cleans on a pretty long cooldown and you have to slot the trait. The mech doesn't dodge attacks like a player would, it just face tanks making it easy to load up with condies (and condition attacks generally have a high damage potential when left untraited, especially when done by some1 in trailblazers). Elixir gun is great (fumigate, Super Elixir + blast finisher from acid bomb), spending shield skills for cleanses (requires trait) is a harder sacrifice to make. 

[iKeostuKen.2738]

9 minutes ago, santenal.1054 said:

yea it has a condi cleans on a pretty long cooldown and you have to slot the trait. The mech doesn't dodge attacks like a player would, it just face tanks making it easy to load up with condies (and condition attacks generally have a high damage potential when left untraited, especially when done by some1 in trailblazers). Elixir gun is great (fumigate, Super Elixir + blast finisher from acid bomb), spending shield skills for cleanses (requires trait) is a harder sacrifice to make. 

Why wouldnt you trait overshield if you either have to go condi damage or shield? Not taking it is a huge waste since it gives you easy access to cleanse, protection uptime and huge increase to survivability for you, your party and your pet. It's actually insane how good mech will make engineer shield.

 

Mech doesnt have to even dodge attacks, put on its ranged auto if your finding it to hard to keep it up close range, they either have to attack you or your pet which is also dpsing them down. Create distance between you and your pet if they are aoe condi bursting. If they chase your pet, shadowstep it away, cleanse it and repeat.

[santenal.1054]

1 minute ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

Why wouldnt you trait overshield if you either have to go condi damage or shield? Not taking it is a huge waste since it gives you easy access to cleanse, protection uptime and huge increase to survivability for you, your party and your pet. It's actually insane how good mech will make engineer shield.

 

Mech doesnt have to even dodge attacks, put on its ranged auto if your finding it to hard to keep it up close range, they either have to attack you or your pet which is also dpsing them down. Create distance between you and your pet if they are aoe condi bursting. If they chase your pet, shadowstep it away, cleanse it and repeat.

Spending the shield skills for cleanses is the sacrifice, they are your defensive skills (its not always the right thing to do). Traiting Over Shield is a good choice, Automated Medical response is also pretty good but not as good when using shield. 

 

You dont have to teach me positioning lol. We will soon enough see what punishment the mech can take, and whether you can keep it alive. 

[iKeostuKen.2738]

2 minutes ago, santenal.1054 said:

Spending the shield skills for cleanses is the sacrifice, they are your defensive skills (its not always the right thing to do). Traiting Over Shield is a good choice, Automated Medical response is also pretty good but not as good when using shield. 

 

You dont have to teach me positioning lol. We will soon enough see what punishment the mech can take, and whether you can keep it alive. 

That's why you have elixir gun. You use the shield skills when you need them for either situation.  And yeah I wouldnt worry about AMR when using shield. Especially since we can really use the protection bonus.

Agreed, really want to see what it can do if we focus on giving them the spotlight, similar to how turret engineer should have been by us making sure they stayed up and healthy with toolkit and weaved in our rifle cc to slow down our opponents.