Is Warrior really this squishy?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

41 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

I usually try to specialize  in either DPS or Tanking personally. Whenever I try to do both at once, it doesn't go very well anymore.

I have taken this as a message from our overlord to do one or the other, so if I had to go damage i'd play something like http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKgAIFlJwUYYsKGKOOX+vbA-z5gfKZKE6VCUwIoiFg7GA

 

Its not super diff. You just lose the Vitality.

More sustain, more damage, and more mobility otherwise

 

I tried it in WvW once. Very good in zergs where you do the stun and the rest do the fun.

Roaming you are pretty much unbeatable in 1v1s with the caveat that your opponent probably won't die either, and if they decide to run away your honor and missing mobility scooter make it impossible to consider chasing them.

 

Fighting lords/Camp bosses too... Oh no.

I've found that cele warrior builds have performed the best while roaming. Vallun called it OP, but it just brings warrior back to the level of everyone else less 10% damage. It's just what weapon do you use. Axe/axe + longbow so far has been a solid cele set for me. GS just bugs out to much for me to care anymore about it.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Shh that's PvE. Doesn't count.

As funny as this may have been in another context, you can't really call warrior squishy in any game mode. Average durability, maybe.

[Joxer.6024]

12 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Shh that's PvE. Doesn't count.

sure it does, since my post is asking about PVE, but it always swings back to the PVP side...lol.  😉

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

As funny as this may have been in another context, you can't really call warrior squishy in any game mode. Average durability, maybe.

Below average overall, but since it has higher base defense it can survive hits that down eles, thieves, and guardians since everyone runs glass in PvE. Glass warrior is still squishy in PvE without support.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Joxer.6024 said:

sure it does, since my post is asking about PVE, but it always swings back to the PVP side...lol.  😉

Okay fair dude. It is your thread. But see my above comment.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Glass warrior is still squishy in PvE without support.

It really isn't, though. I mean, sure, if we call every DPS-oriented build squishy - but we use the common sense comparison of looking at the gear requirements for soloing (probably the best example in this argument), then we can see that warrior is among the more durable classes.

I am NOT soloing Queen Ishraa on zerker gear on any other class. It's just not happening.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

It really isn't, though. I mean, sure, if we call every DPS-oriented build squishy - but we use the common sense comparison of looking at the gear requirements for soloing (probably the best example in this argument), then we can see that warrior is among the more durable classes.

I am NOT soloing Queen Ishraa on zerker gear on any other class. It's just not happening.

Because two hits to downstate rather than one while running glass is the epitomy of tankiness right?

Warrior has good self sustain in PvE, but that isn't the same as having perma prot, shroud, barrier spam, and block spam while also attacking.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

13 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Because two hits to downstate rather than one while running glass is the epitomy of tankiness right

Since you see fit to mention it; indeed, it does make all the difference in a bunch of encounters.

 

13 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Warrior has good self sustain in PvE

So now it indeed is 1) good base defense and 2) good self-sustain.

 

13 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

that isn't the same as having perma prot, shroud, barrier spam, and block spam while also attacking.

Scourge is the ultimate PvE easy mode. I doubt no one is arguing against that. Block spam, though; assuming you're referring to guardian? Not quite how it works, particularly after FB received some hefty nerfs.

Edited November 17, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Since you see fit to mention it; indeed, it does make all the difference in a bunch of encounters.

 

So now it indeed is 1) good base defense and 2) good self-sustain.

 

Scourge is the ultimate PvE easy mode. I doubt no one is arguing against that. Block spam, though; assuming you're referring to guardian? Not quite how it works, particularly after FB received some hefty nerfs.

My point is that tanking itself involves a sustain ability to minimize damage received over a prolonged time period. Warrior does not have that except for limited windows via stances or Full Counter which can be exploited and worn down.

Things like shroud, multiple zero effort blocks, damage reduction stacking, and barrier spam is what accomplishes tanking in this game as these all minimize direct hp loss. Warrior can't do that, especially not while maintaining a DPS rotation. Multi's build is virtually immortal in PvP, but that is because it covers the gaps in the window with CC's coupled with resustain not because of full on damage mitigation.

Tanking is not really the same as resustaining. That is like calling a heal monk from GW1 a tank when the 55 prot monk in reality was the best tank.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Yawn, non warriors need to get on our level that's all. Can't wait for a day that warrior will be remotely strong or average. So I can mow down every Soulbeast, every Rev, every Holo, every Necro, every guard. 

 

One can hope. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

15 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Yawn, non warriors need to get on our level that's all. Can't wait for a day that warrior will be remotely strong or average. So I can mow down every Soulbeast, every Rev, every Holo, every Necro, every guard. 

 

One can hope. 

It's so close too that it's painful. The hard CC nerf and might stack reductions on several skills really tipped it over the edge in a bad way.

Is there more that is needed? Sure. Cast time reductions on several dps skills namely along with revamping Arms, Defense, and or resistance uptimes.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

My point is that tanking itself involves a sustain ability to minimize damage received over a prolonged time period. Warrior does not have that except for limited windows via stances or Full Counter which can be exploited and worn down.

You have never, ever, considered the ability to consistently re-sustain yourself back up a form of damage mitigation? Alrighty then. Also, I suppose dodge frames do not matter either.

 

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Things like shroud, multiple zero effort blocks, damage reduction stacking, and barrier spam is what accomplishes tanking in this game as these all minimize direct hp loss.

Plenty of irrelevancies to this topic.

 

 

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Warrior can't do that, especially not while maintaining a DPS rotation.

Very, very few specs can maintain an optimal DPS rotation at the same time. But, again, this is besides the topic.

 

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Tanking is not really the same as resustaining.

Is that why the act of tanking generally requires a form of sustain, either innate or outside interference?

 

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That is like calling a heal monk from GW1 a tank

Which brings us back to point 1: consistent enough healing as a form of damage mitigation. If memory serves correct, in GW1 this would roughly include various on-hit effects and lifesteal.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

You have never, ever, considered the ability to consistently re-sustain yourself back up a form of damage mitigation? Alrighty then. Also, I suppose dodge frames do not matter either.

 

Plenty of irrelevancies to this topic.

 

 

Very, very few specs can maintain an optimal DPS rotation at the same time. But, again, this is besides the topic.

 

Is that why the act of tanking generally requires a form of sustain, either innate or outside interference?

 

Which brings us back to point 1: consistent enough healing as a form of damage mitigation. If memory serves correct, in GW1 this would roughly include various on-hit effects and lifesteal.

 

You're confusing resustain with not taking the damage in the first place, damage mitigation is either not taking the damage or bringing that damage to minimal levels through a combination of abilities and gear. A tank that looses 99% of their HP constantly is a bad tank. Being off on your resustain by a quarter second will get you killed in that case. That is why in games that actually have a holy trinity that the healer isn't the tank themselves, the dude that barely takes the damage in the first place is the tank.

[Joxer.6024]

And speaking of the squishiness I have to ask, why did Revenant get battle scars and War got a rock? I wasnt around when ANET "balanced" the classes but it just seems very very very unfair to give such a strong trait to one class and not another, especially one known for falling down? I mean I now know why I am doing so well leveling my Rev vs my War...its that trait!

How is that balance?  ouch

[artharon.9276]

21 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's meant for holding a point forever and not dying. Doesn't kill anything either.

I am deffinitely not as pro as most of you when it comes to theorycrafting, but tbh for holding points and annoying others I'd still go with core/shout heals.  

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, artharon.9276 said:

I am deffinitely not as pro as most of you when it comes to theorycrafting, but tbh for holding points and annoying others I'd still go with core/shout heals.  

For Multi's build you use blocks/FC in-between long duration CC's. Runes of Aristocracy give you 5 might per CC (1s icd) which ends up being a fair amount of healing from MMR.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

11 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You're confusing resustain with not taking the damage in the first place, damage mitigation is either not taking the damage or bringing that damage to minimal levels through a combination of abilities and gear. A tank that looses 99% of their HP constantly is a bad tank. Being off on your resustain by a quarter second will get you killed in that case. That is why in games that actually have a holy trinity that the healer isn't the tank themselves, the dude that barely takes the damage in the first place is the tank.

You're pushing for far-reach examples and trying to derive the thread in a direction of your choosing. Ride that boat if it floats for you. Although I have to admit I knew I was wasting my time from the start.

Edited November 17, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

27 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

You're pushing for far-reach examples and trying to derive the thread in a direction of your choosing. Ride that boat if it floats for you. Although I have to admit I knew I was wasting my time from the start.

It was a waste of time when you confused basic game terminology so... o/

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It was a waste of time when you confused basic game terminology so... o/

I mean, GW1 comparisons. Really.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

I mean, GW1 comparisons. Really.

You apparently needed a proper education on what tanking is since you obviously had 0 idea so it was a proper example.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You apparently needed a proper education on what tanking is since you obviously had 0 idea so it was a proper example.

Your warrior main is showing. No offense.

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Your warrior main is showing. No offense.

What are you on about?

Proper communication requires using the correct terminology, bringing that up is an appropriate part of a discussion like this. Everyone needs to be on the same page when it comes to terms, otherwise people will just talk past each other and talk about different things.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

You don't need to be a warrior main to feel the relative squishy-ness of the profession in PVE.  The biggest issue warrior has is limited engagement ranges and how few practical active defenses it actually has.  For the sake of an example, imagine there's a group of Forged coming over the hill, with a mixture of enemies ranging from vets to regulars.  How would I handle them?

 

Elementalist: I would drop Sandstorm to keep them blinded, then either go through the weaver rotation with lava skin and pulsing AoEs to quickly cleave them all down, or start overloading with tempest to give myself a bunch of boons and magnetic auras to stop all their attacks.

Mesmer: Chronomancers would engage at range, starting the CS rotation with the greatsword at length.  The enemies would chase all the clones while they get ripped to shreds by endless phantasmal berserkers.  Failing that, Gravity well to herd them all up.  On mirage I would drop feedback on the pack while creating clones and blasting them over and over again with Chaos Vortex, being nigh invulnerable while I do it.

Necromancer: For Reaper I would drop the Well of Darkness + Well of Suffering to keep them blinded, or I would use Nightfall.  Then I shroud up and spin to win while protected by life force.  On Scourge I'd drop a relentless amount of AoEs from afar, keeping them too disabled to chase me, and with too much barrier to be hit by anything.

Revenant: On Herald the Devastation line lets me out-regen everything they can throw at me, but failing that I'll consume Facet of Light and effectively have 3 lives.  On Renegade I'd drop Darkrazor to keep them continuously dazed while I rip them apart.  Condi builds would just engage them at range with the shortbow.

Guardian:  Dragonhunters would open with Shield of Wrath, which when combined with Aegis is enough hits to kill everything with traps.  Highest burst damage in the game and all that.  Failing that, Shield of Courage or Wall of Reflection would be used.  On Firebrand the pulsing aegis from the heal skill would keep most enemies at bay while the conditions melt everything.  Failing that, Courage 3's projectile shield stops all outside attacks.  

Thief: On Daredevil I'll spam Vault and Bounding Dodger to do massive amounts of damage while evading.  Failing that, I'm using Black Powder or Smokescreen to keep the enemies permanently blind and helpless.  On Deadeye I'm parking it 1500 unites away, and then killing everything very quickly while under quickness and my own projectile destroying wall.

Engineer:  I'll blind spam with the Bomb Kit or the Mortar Kit.  For Scrappers, I'll Rocket Charge in my own Thunderclap field, stunning them while evading attacks and building up immense barrier.  On Holosmith I'll stun everything with shockwave, and then quickly kill everything behind Photon Wall.  

Ranger: Don't play ranger.

 

There's a trend among these.  I'm either A) Putting down a field that constantly blinds or dazes enemies, B) Engaging the enemies at a far distance to protect myself, or C) Chaining together reflects and invulnerability skills that allow me to fight while being protected at the same time.  Warrior... doesn't really have this.  Most of their CC is single target, and they don't have pulsing blinds or reflects to use.  Warriors have notoriously bad ranged weapons, so they can't do much there.  The only thing they do have is some pseudo-invulnerability skills.  Shield Stance doesn't let you attack, so it is circumstantial at best.  Endure Pain is an invulnerability skill in the weakest sense of the word, as it still lets CC and conditions through.  Berserkers have Blood Reckoning, which suffers from similar problems as Endure Pain, but also doesn't work if you can't inflict damage.  Spellbreakers have Winds of Disenchantment, but it is on such a long cooldown that it is hard to make use of it.

Combine all this together, and the default strategy for warrior is to charge in, pop Endure Pain, and hope for the best.  That, or run a specialized Spellbreaker build that gives itself a lot of health generation in exchange for terribly gutted damage.  

 

[CaffeeCup.5742]

My opinion is Warrior, to me, plays like a souls game. You have to understand the fight you're getting into and you have to have developed that defensive and sustain rhythm to use the class effectively.  That's why it's the class I can play without falling asleep.  I hop on my guardian and feel like taking a nap 30 minutes into it, then I usually go back to my berserker.

 

Timing all the available evades, dodges, utility block, which pack of mobs to burst down quick or which attacks to avoid with what active defense, once you get a firm grasp at the rhythm of it, I dunno...  all I know is the time I started the game on warrior a few months back, to now, the survivability gap is massive for me.

[artharon.9276]

On 11/17/2021 at 12:23 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

 A tank that looses 99% of their HP constantly is a bad tank. 

Meat shield!

On 11/18/2021 at 12:31 AM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Your warrior main is showing. No offense.

This is unnecesary, warrior mains need some healthy conversations, number of people that actually care about the class is already thin so I wouldn't recommend annoying anybody that contributes with builds, balance and theory, no matter what.