How are you supposed to trigger the unleashed effects / traits while you use hammer.

[anduriell.6280]

So if you use hammer, untammed while in feral state does not have access to any CC. How are you supposed to trigger the "when disabling a foe" traits and effects? 

[Kodama.6453]

Storm spirit, spike trap, exploding spores, nature's binding, beastly warden.

Besides, with the unleashed mechanic having 1 second CD now, switching between the damage and CC kits of hammer is fairly easy to do now, so you can use combinations like having the pet unleashed to cc the enemy and get the benefits of the CC from traits, then unleash yourself immediately for the damage benefits.

[Cisii.8317]

Switch out of unleashed and switch back.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Storm spirit, spike trap, exploding spores, nature's binding, beastly warden...

Storm Spirit gets nuked before it lets off its skill if you do it on a node, for Exploding Spores to work the target needs to be standing still and you need to be inside their hit box, Nature's Binding isn't a CC and doesn't trigger the disable traits and neither does Beastly Warden since it is applied by the pet, the same with all the pet CC skills, none of them trigger the traits.

[Kodama.6453]

1 minute ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Storm Spirit gets nuked before it lets off its skill if you do it on a node, for Exploding Spores to work the target needs to be standing still and you need to be inside their hit box, Nature's Binding isn't a CC and doesn't trigger the disable traits and neither does Beastly Warden since it is applied by the pet, the same with all the pet CC skills, none of them trigger the traits.

That sucks and should be changed then.

However, are you sure that nature's binding is not triggering the traits? I thought it works exactly like the warden mechanic from guardian, which applies a knockback whenever an enemy tries to cross the line. So it should trigger these traits, imo. If it doesn't, maybe that's a bug?

[Canidae Canis.2861]

Pet CC and your second weapon set can help a lot here. It's still a little difficult to combo sometimes, but workable once you get the rhythm. Try using a canine companion, smokescale, porcine, etc. for the knockdown to create CC, or use warhorn on second weapon set for the daze then swap and smash. Works well with Marksmanship trait line and the Moment of Clarity for increased daze durations.

[InsaneQR.7412]

Tbh i would just give hammer 2-3*CC skills and remove the second weapon skill forms entirely, so that every weapon works in the samelway with unleash but hammer gives you the most benefit out of disable traits.

[anduriell.6280]

 

2 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Storm Spirit gets nuked before it lets off its skill if you do it on a node, for Exploding Spores to work the target needs to be standing still and you need to be inside their hit box, Nature's Binding isn't a CC and doesn't trigger the disable traits and neither does Beastly Warden since it is applied by the pet, the same with all the pet CC skills, none of them trigger the traits.

Standing still in the dead center. Additionaly hammer can not benefit from the damage boost when hitting disabled foes because there there is no way the untamed has any long CCs to get advante from.

 

2 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

Tbh i would just give hammer 2-3*CC skills and remove the second weapon skill forms entirely, so that every weapon works in the samelway with unleash but hammer gives you the most benefit out of disable traits.

Just remove the dual mechanic and add an one wolf pack strike when disabling targets while in the green goo state. The dual thing is a disaster on how it is implemented currently. 

[OGDeadHead.8326]

2 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

Tbh i would just give hammer 2-3*CC skills and remove the second weapon skill forms entirely, so that every weapon works in the samelway with unleash but hammer gives you the most benefit out of disable traits.

Indeed. Simplify the hammer and be done with it. I don't like dual skillset at all. It feels like the weapon is working against itself, like so many other things with this spec. That way it should be a lot easier to balance as well.

[Zyreva.1078]

Swapping mode mid cast allows hammer to proc the unleashed versions of the cc traits. Sometimes i wonder if some players even played the spec for longer than 5 min before giving "feedback" ...

Edited December 1, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[anduriell.6280]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Swapping mode mid cast allows hammer to proc the unleashed versions of the cc traits. Sometimes i wonder if some players even played the spec for longer than 5 min before giving "feedback" ...

Such an amazing idea! why didn't i think about it before.... Such a transparent and user friendly to design a class. 

Oh wait now to be able to function with the hammer you have to add button acrobatics to attack so to catch the CCs in mid-cast. Fantastic idea that you have pointed out! 

Let me put this one in the book of  "Thanks, I hate it".  You should read what you actually poor on the forums.  

[Beddo.1907]

3 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Swapping mode mid cast allows hammer to proc the unleashed versions of the cc traits. Sometimes i wonder if some players even played the spec for longer than 5 min before giving "feedback" ...

I wonder if some players will even learn that finding a solution doesn't mean it's a good solution.

15 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

How are you supposed to trigger the "when disabling a foe" traits and effects? 

You just reminded me to add a part to feedback about a lot of ranger cc coming from pets while they don't trigger non pet exclusive traits. That's 1-2 CC skills missing. (not like having 2 more cc makes the trait usable in a realistic scenario)

[Zyreva.1078]

When unleashed mode swap had 10s cd and was absolute garbage everyone asked to add that mechanic to other weapons and now that they made it good by reducing the cd it is suddenly too complicated and players want it to be removed entirely. Average rangers in a nutshell ... No wonder the class has such a bad reputation.

I really hope they don't dumb the spec down (like they did with slb already), just because players can't be bothered to learn a new spec and don't want to press their buttons and rather rely on passive pet carry and super simple gameplay mechanics. Because i'm having fun with Untamed. It still has some issues, but none of those that are complained about here.

(Also since i've missed it earlier - Nature's Binding does cc players that run into the wall and it will trigger cc traits).

Edited December 2, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

9 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Standing still in the dead center...

RE: Exploding Spores.

IMO, Exploding Spores should be changed from a knockdown to a stun and make it 0.5s per spore strike, so if you do actually get all 6 to hit, it is a big CC, but you also get some benefit from only having a couple of them hit too.

[Soilder.3607]

Untamed Unleash Mode only has a 1 second recharge now which makes it trivially easy to swap in and out and trigger which effects of the hammer skills you want for the current situation. It took me a few hours to get used to it but that's just what it is, you have to get good with the spec. And once you do, you can do pretty cool things like stripping stab with unleashed hammer #3, knocking them down with non-unleashed hammer #5, then switching back to unleashed hammer #4 for big dmg.

[Soilder.3607]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I really hope they don't dumb the spec down (like they did with slb already), just because players can't be bothered to learn a new spec and don't want to press their buttons and rather rely on passive pet carry and super simple gameplay mechanics. \

Untamed genuinely feels more skillful to play properly as keeping track of what effects/skills you want for the given moment can be greatly rewarding and more challenging than any other Ranger spec so far.

 

Addressing everyone else here, Elementalist is more or less the high water mark of how complex a class can be with the number of abilities it must juggle and Untamed comes close but doesn't quite reach that level of complexity, so to say that it's too difficult to learn would not be a viable excuse in the eyes of the developers who have already added classes that are more difficult to learn.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Soilder.3607

[Aleksander Suburb.4287]

10 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

When unleashed mode swap had 10s cd and was absolute garbage everyone asked to add that mechanic to other weapons and now that they made it good by reducing the cd it is suddenly too complicated and players want it to be removed entirely. Average rangers in a nutshell ... No wonder the class has such a bad reputation.

I really hope they don't dumb the spec down (like they did with slb already), just because players can't be bothered to learn a new spec and don't want to press their buttons and rather rely on passive pet carry and super simple gameplay mechanics. Because i'm having fun with Untamed. It still has some issues, but none of those that are complained about here.

(Also since i've missed it earlier - Nature's Binding does cc players that run into the wall and it will trigger cc traits).

I said in tha last beta, that the hammer skills should be mixed with an if-clause. All skills in the form of "If you hit disabled enemy then ... else disable/cc enemy"

Edited December 2, 2021 by Aleksander Suburb.4287

[OGDeadHead.8326]

9 hours ago, Soilder.3607 said:

Addressing everyone else here, Elementalist is more or less the high water mark of how complex a class can be with the number of abilities it must juggle and Untamed comes close but doesn't quite reach that level of complexity, so to say that it's too difficult to learn would not be a viable excuse in the eyes of the developers who have already added classes that are more difficult to learn.

Elementalist was designed like that from the get go, ranger was not. I urge you to read Trevor Boyers post on the matter:

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by OGDeadHead.8326

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

8 hours ago, Soilder.3607 said:

Addressing everyone else here, Elementalist is more or less the high water mark of how complex a class can be with the number of abilities it must juggle and Untamed comes close but doesn't quite reach that level of complexity, so to say that it's too difficult to learn would not be a viable excuse in the eyes of the developers who have already added classes that are more difficult to learn.

Personally, I think Elementalist is MUCH MUCH less complex to play than Untamed. Elementalist has a lot of skills, but they are grouped well with a theme to each attunement so you know which one to swap to when you want particular skills or effects. And even if they are on CD, you can just swap to a different set and use those skills.

There are not a lot of CDs to remember like with Untamed; Pet CD 15/20s OR 45/60s depending on if you have beastmastery traited and whether the pet is dead or alive, Pet swap traits, you have weapon swap, weapon swap traits and weapon swap sigils on a 9s CD, you have Quickdraw that only lasts 5s after a swap, You have the 1s CD of the stance itself, then a 10s CD for Cleaning Unleash, and the CDs of the pet skills, the CD of the Unleashed Pet skills and then the CDs of the Ambush skills too. So you have to juggle swapping between pets, weapons and between Unleashed stances, each of which have different effects. 

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, OGDeadHead.8326 said:

Elementalist was designed like that from the get go, ranger was not.

 

So because ranger tends to be easy to play they aren't allowed to make one of its specs a little bit more demanding? That's ridiculous.

 

56 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Personally, I think Elementalist is MUCH MUCH less complex to play than Untamed. Elementalist has a lot of skills, but they are grouped well with a theme to each attunement so you know which one to swap to when you want particular skills or effects. And even if they are on CD, you can just swap to a different set and use those skills.

There are not a lot of CDs to remember like with Untamed; Pet CD 15/20s OR 45/60s depending on if you have beastmastery traited and whether the pet is dead or alive, Pet swap traits, you have weapon swap, weapon swap traits and weapon swap sigils on a 9s CD, you have Quickdraw that only lasts 5s after a swap, You have the 1s CD of the stance itself, then a 10s CD for Cleaning Unleash, and the CDs of the pet skills, the CD of the Unleashed Pet skills and then the CDs of the Ambush skills too. So you have to juggle swapping between pets, weapons and between Unleashed stances, each of which have different effects. 

That's not how ele nor ranger/untamed works.

[OGDeadHead.8326]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

So because ranger tends to be easy to play they aren't allowed to make one of its specs a little bit more demanding? That's ridiculous.

Did I say that? I did put a link in the post above, I suggest you read that.

 

[Zyreva.1078]

5 hours ago, OGDeadHead.8326 said:

Did I say that? I did put a link in the post above, I suggest you read that.

 

Then why even bring up ele and original class design? And no, i won't read irrelevant posts that have nothing to do with this discussion. If you want to provide arguments, do it on your own.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

11 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

So because ranger tends to be easy to play they aren't allowed to make one of its specs a little bit more demanding? That's ridiculous.

...That's not how ele nor ranger/untamed works.

It's not ridiculous actually. Ranger is not very easy to play when compared to many other classes. It has a very low skill floor so it is easy to get into, but it also has a very high skill ceiling because it has a lot less to work with than other classes who can spam skills and you also need to be aware of the positioning of two vectors, not one.

Pressing buttons does not make a class dificult to play or have a higher skill ceiling. What Ranger requires of the player is timing, patience and situational awareness. I mean, if you want to play it well in PvP scenarios that is. Because who really cares about PvE in this regard, you just want to do as much damage as possible, nothing else matters. All ranger skills are situational reactionary skills, almost nothing is spammable and since Ranger only has (until Untamed) 10 weapon skills to choose from, if you just spam your skills and swap, well you are a bad player and you will die. But on many of the other eSpecs, this is exactly how you play them. You just spam as many skills as possible.

Ranger is more about positioning and timing than spamming. You can't just take Ranger and give it spamming mechanics now and expect it to flow well or even work without just feeling like an Ele who is using only two attunements and brings Glyph of Elementals.

 

You're going to need to explain how they are not like that because they are when I play them.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

You're going to need to explain how they are not like that because they are when I play them.

 

1. Mindlessly spamming buttons means you are a bad player, no matter the class. Even on builds that have a tendency to be more "spammy" than others. There is nothing that is best played by spamming "as much skills as possible". And most ranger builds are fairly easy to play from a mechanical point of view. There is no denying that.

2. Untamed isn't spammy at all, it is all about timing and combos. Even more than with most other ranger specs. You just got more control over your pet instead of having to rely on rng and the unleashed mechanic adds a few buttons, but nothing about those things is spammy. Just because you got a few more skills at your disposal doesn't mean you are supposed to spam them on cooldown (this does apply to pretty much any class).

Edited December 3, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

15 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 

1. Mindlessly spamming buttons means you are a bad player, no matter the class. Even on builds that have a tendency to be more "spammy" than others. There is nothing that is best played by spamming "as much skills as possible". And most ranger builds are fairly easy to play from a mechanical point of view. There is no denying that.

2. Untamed isn't spammy at all, it is all about timing and combos. Even more than with most other ranger specs. You just got more control over your pet instead of having to rely on rng and the unleashed mechanic adds a few buttons, but nothing about those things is spammy. Just because you got a few more skills at your disposal doesn't mean you are supposed to spam them on cooldown (this does apply to pretty much any class).

1. Mindlessly spamming buttons may mean you are a bad player, but if it gets the job done, then that is a class issue. You cannot spam skills on Ranger and expect good outcomes, you CAN do that on many classes and have a good outcome. From a mechanical point of view, yes, there are less buttons to press. But from a mental point of view, it is a lot more complicated.

2. I never stated Untamed is spammy nor did I say it should be played as such. I just stated that it has a lot going on and many CDs to manage mentally and buttons to press mechanically to swap between everything to gain the different skills (weapon swap, pet swap, stance swap), for little to no gain over core ranger and much less effectively than other classes which have access to the same amount of skills like Elementalist or Engineer.