About the new F3 and the theme of the Legendary Alliance

[VladTepes.7042]

Hey, there are already many topics about gameplay-feedback, so this shouldn't be about balance, just about the theme of the Vindicator. Numbers can be tweaked, skills be changed, but there should be a theme. This is just a quick thought on the theme of the Legendary Alliance and how it is still missing, now more than before.

The new F3
I don't like the solution they came up with to fix the problems with one of the mechanics, the double-legend-stance, by making it basically just a second legend swap so you can focus on one and ignore the other side. The Legendary Alliance Stance and the suggested way to play it is to ignore the Alliance-theme? Although i understand that it was an easy solution and that many players wanted it to be, i cannot understand it.
One way would have been to make it worthwhile for the player and encourage them to use both sides of a skill or skill-set by making them more complementary to each other. Or just by giving a unique buff to stack by using both sides. Almost everything would have been more interesting and thematically more appropriate than this solution.

The Theme
As much as i disliked Kalla as a Legend(mainly because of the utility skills and the simplicity of this spec), at least she had a clear theme: The Charr rebellion. It was everywhere. In the weapon, in the utility skills AND especially in the F skills and traits. The Vindicator on the other hand has no consistent theme at the moment. The theme of an alliance between two foes for a higher purpose can rarely be seen, nearly exclusivly in the two skill-sets and the swapping skills. (Well, the latter no longer) And apart from the names, there is little in the traits that supports it. The F-Skills have no theme at all.

I still hope that by the time it is released they can think of changes to give this spec a real theme that feels like playing an unlikely alliance.

What are your thoughts about the new F3 and the theme of the Vindicator?

[Raiken.1476]

Function over form.

 

Playing the Vindicator during the last beta felt horrible because of so much more than low damage. Your legend constantly locking out the skills you want to use because you built around them, switching back being irrationally costly, your dodge taking ages to use and to regain, having no CC to break the weakest of bars without a staff or going totally out of your way with Jade Wind or even Dwarf Stance to name a few. The Alliance stance is much more of an alliance now because the two legends work together instead of against each other. I'm actually excited to play this now that the dodges feel impactful, more fluid and don't have dumb endurance requirements, the legend skills have lower cooldowns and are almost always available, you have at least some CC in Alliance stance, and you do much more reasonable damage. To me, the Vindicator has massively improved.

[Tescao.3042]

I think the theme of the Alliance is very deep, like Yin and Yang.

P. S. Eastern philosophy is hidden in Cantha, so it is pleasant for me to observe such details.

Edited December 1, 2021 by DomHemingway.8436

[Dawanarth.4601]

There are 3 component to the Revenant Espec: Theme, Utilities and Mechanic

Core: Ancient Echo give boons tailored to the lore of each Legend (Jalis: Rite of of the Great Dwarf, Ventari: Alacrity, Shiro: Unlockable, Mallyx: Resolution)

Herald:

Glint as a Crystal Dragon could invoke Facet that represent herself (You actually fight some remanent facets during PoF iirc)

Utilities based on the facet of Glint, also feature an unique Signet system that wouldn't really work on any other Profession

Profession mechanic turning the Ancient Echo into a "Signet"

Renegade:

Scorchrazor and her warband

Summon her Warband for a limited time (except Elite which is an active skill)

Profession mechanic: Instead of Ancient Echo: Citadel Ordes showing the help that the Black Citadel and the Iron Legion gave to Karra and her Uprising

Vindicator:

Archemorus and Saint Viktor, two heroes of their own people who after eon of strife joined together against a common threat

Utilities from one of the Legend

Profession mechanic: Lock out Saint Viktor or Archemorus (Only when used by Alliance)

Energy boost + Dodge mechanic

[InsaneQR.7412]

Honestly i would lovelif the F3 would give us a legend specific skill and teh elite of the alliance functions as a second legend swap instead.

 

So archermorus would gets hi spear as the F3, SV his urn upkeep and each other legend could also gain a skill taht complements their kit.

 

This way core legend builds dont feel like they miss out on anything.

[Kidel.2057]

I like Vindicator thematically and the new F3 is decent to use. I just don't find much utility in Legendary Alliance overall compared to Shiro+Jalis which have stronger heals, stronger CC and overall much useful skills (not to mention the elites). 

The fact that Legendary Alliance is weaker than 2 core legends is terrible. 

Plus I find the heals very slow and clunky to use (heal + f3 + heal again).

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Absolutely love the way it works now.  It’s 10x better now.

 

im not sure what the others are going on about.  The Alliance is very squad friendly, benefiting both you and your party, whether your on offense or defense.  Maybe people just aren’t using the correct legend combo.  I personally find using Alliance and Shiro very notable.  Also Alliance and Jalis went well too.

[Kidel.2057]

29 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Absolutely love the way it works now.  It’s 10x better now.

 

im not sure what the others are going on about.  The Alliance is very squad friendly, benefiting both you and your party, whether your on offense or defense.  Maybe people just aren’t using the correct legend combo.  I personally find using Alliance and Shiro very notable.  Also Alliance and Jalis went well too.

Why use Alliance+whatever over simply Shiro+Jalis?

Alliance is not "bad", but it's not better than core legends either. Jalis gives you more heal, more condi cleanse, more CC, mosre stab and more defense. Shiro gives you again better heal, the same boons of Archemorus, easier access to dodges, more CC and both dodge and blink (a better one) in the same loadout. Both give you more damage, support and heal, and are easier to use. Alliance may look like 10 skill, but it feels like 6.5 (both elites are useless waste of energy, the heal is weak and maybe is 1 full heal if you use both).

You assume people have been using it wrong, but maybe you should explore using Vindicator with core legends only and see if it's better or worse than Alliance. Should ANet nerf core legends? I don't think so. 

Again, you used GS, which is "not bad", but is it better than staff or S/S? Have you compared? In which content type? Staff gives you damage, CC (a STRONG CC), condi clense, evasion. 
Staff on Vindicator is much better than GS thematically and in practice. It's an offensive-support hybrid weapon that gives you 1 extra dodge and the CC that Alliance lacks. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

5 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Why use Alliance+whatever over simply Shiro+Jalis?

Alliance is not "bad", but it's not better than core legends either. Jalis gives you more heal, more condi cleanse, more CC, mosre stab and more defense. Shiro gives you again better heal, the same boons of Archemorus, easier access to dodges, more CC and both dodge and blink (a better one) in the same loadout. Both give you more damage, support and heal, and are easier to use. Alliance may look like 10 skill, but it feels like 6.5 (both elites are useless waste of energy, the heal is weak and maybe is 1 full heal if you use both).

You assume people have been using it wrong, but maybe you should explore using Vindicator with core legends only and see if it's better or worse than Alliance. Should ANet nerf core legends? I don't think so. 

Again, you used GS, which is "not bad", but is it better than staff or S/S? Have you compared? In which content type? Staff gives you damage, CC (a STRONG CC), condi clense, evasion. 
Staff on Vindicator is much better than GS thematically and in practice. It's an offensive-support hybrid weapon that gives you 1 extra dodge and the CC that Alliance lacks. 

In answer to your questions, yes. I have tested them. And I stand by what I said.   And no, I don’t assume, which is why I stated “maybe”  at the beginning of that. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Kidel.2057]

17 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

In answer to your questions, yes. I have tested them. And I stand by what I said.   And no, I don’t assume, which is why I stated “maybe”  at the beginning of that. 

Let me repeat then: "Why use Alliance+whatever over simply Shiro+Jalis?"
That's a genuine question. I'd like to know. I find Alliance totally redundant and inferior under every point of view. 
Do you also like the healing skills and the elite skills in Alliance? 

[Dawanarth.4601]

I think it's when you want to be an off heal without taking Ventari

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

39 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Let me repeat then: "Why use Alliance+whatever over simply Shiro+Jalis?"
That's a genuine question. I'd like to know. I find Alliance totally redundant and inferior under every point of view. 
Do you also like the healing skills and the elite skills in Alliance? 

I've already answered it in the post that you're overly obsessing over.  Two words:  Squad benefit.  If you're going to tunnel vision it and look at it as a solo spec, then sure, I can see why you'd think the way you do.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682
clarification

[Kidel.2057]

3 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I've already answered it in the post that you're overly obsessing over.  Two words:  Squad benefit.  If you're going to tunnel vision it and look at it as a solo spec, then sure, I can see why you'd think the way you do.

I'm asking how. Please elaborate. 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

1 minute ago, Kidel.2057 said:

I'm asking how. Please elaborate. 

.....

really?

Look up the Alliance skills and how they benefit your squad.  I'm not going to read for you.  I'm sure you're more than capable of looking either at the tooltips or the wiki.

 

Or are you just trying to troll?

 

[Scoobaniec.9561]

3 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

.....

really?

Look up the Alliance skills and how they benefit your squad.  I'm not going to read for you.  I'm sure you're more than capable of looking either at the tooltips or the wiki.

 

Or are you just trying to troll?

 

What does it have over Jalis? Neither damage nor long lasting pulsing stab nor aoe damage reduction. Worthless

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

8 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

What does it have over Jalis? Neither damage nor long lasting pulsing stab nor aoe damage reduction. Worthless

Who says you can't use Jalis and the Alliance?

Edited December 1, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682
Stupid auto correcting

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

23 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I've already answered it in the post that you're overly obsessing over.  Two words:  Squad benefit.  If you're going to tunnel vision it and look at it as a solo spec, then sure, I can see why you'd think the way you do.

Outside of raw healing, Jalis is far superior for support.  Inspiring Reinforcement has no target cap, so will hit all members of a squad that stand on it and, if needed, can provide permanent stability for the entire squad.  Also Vindicator isn't likely to be taken for its supportive capabilities as a dps.  The hybrid approach doesn't work really; you have to choose one or the other to really get anything out of it.  And Heal Vindicator (at least in PvE) doesn't really have any value when compared to Renegade (or even Herald)

Edited December 1, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Kidel.2057]

11 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

.....

really?

Look up the Alliance skills and how they benefit your squad.  I'm not going to read for you.  I'm sure you're more than capable of looking either at the tooltips or the wiki.

 

Or are you just trying to troll?

 

No, I'm not trolling. I simply want to know if you're talking about full support builds, which I didn't try. And in that case how is going into Alliance (Saint Viktor) ever going to benefit you over Ventari+Jalis? 

Again, if you're talking about a hybrid damage+support build, how is Alliance going to benefit you over Shiro+Jalis? 

You don't seem to get the point. We're not saying "muh alliance bad", but that core legends are better, objectively. You can "do stuff" with Alliance, sure. Doesn't mean it's optimal. 

 

9 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

What does it have over Jalis? Neither damage nor long lasting pulsing stab nor aoe damage reduction. Worthless

Exactly

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

2 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Outside of raw healing, Jalis is far superior for support.  Inspiring Reinforcement has no target cap, so will hit all members of a squad that stand on it and, if needed, can provide permanent stability for the entire squad.  Also Vindicator isn't likely to be taken for its supportive capabilities as a dps.  The hybrid approach doesn't work really; you have to choose one or the other to really get anything out of it. 

I have to disagree with that.  You use Jalis until you run out of energy, then switch to Alliance for support.  Don't need support right away, then use Arch side until you do.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Kidel.2057]

5 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I have to disagree with that.  You use Jalis until you run out of energy, then switch to Alliance for support.  Don't need support right away, then use Viktor's side until you do.

 

7 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Who says you can't use Jalis and the Alliance?

That's what I wanted to know, thanks. 

Ok, Alliance is decent for full support builds with Viktor+Jalis (basically as a redundant Jalis option to recover energy). 

For everything else it's useless. Right? Do you agree? 

pretty sure they didn't design Alliance with that use in mind, but I could be wrong. I mean.... Don't we have Herald for that? 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I have to disagree with that.  You use Jalis until you run out of energy, then switch to Alliance for support.  Don't need support right away, then use Viktor's side until you do.

I edited this in less than 30s after posting, but "And Heal Vindicator (at least in PvE) doesn't really have any value when compared to Renegade (or even Herald)."  So yes, you can run Jalis/Alliance, but it offers considerably less than Jalis/Glint/Ventari/Shiro (Herald) or Jalis/Kalla; not sure why you would or why you would need to.  Again, at least in PvE

Edited December 1, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Oh, we're talking about PvE. Nevermind then.  I will bow out of this convo.

 

I tend not to look at build usefulness through PvE eyes.

[Kidel.2057]

 

1 minute ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Oh, we're talking about PvE. Nevermind then.  I will bow out of this convo.

 

I tend not to look at build usefulness through PvE eyes.

You said "squad content". Never specified WvW. 
 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 minute ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Oh, we're talking about PvE. Nevermind then.  I will bow out of this convo.

 

I tend not to look at build usefulness through PvE eyes.

I think what you're talking about could be a potentially decent support for WvW, but I can't see it being great for PvP or PvE at the moment and I think it's still inferior to Guardian/Tempest, etc.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

4 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I have to disagree with that.  You use Jalis until you run out of energy, then switch to Alliance for support.  Don't need support right away, then use Arch side until you do.

What Alliance has over Kalla or even Glint? Or even Ventari? Running in circles..

Legend that is neither dps focused nor support. We needed second power dps house legend and we got smth that is neither good at dps and overshadowed in support. I dont even know why they placed some subpar support in again. Nobody asked for it