Vindicator recommendations, notably skill flipping needs to return.

[Joxer.6024]

On 12/5/2021 at 7:24 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Edit: Best Solution by Za Shaloc.3908

 

Having the ability to change by just tapping once more after using the skill is a great idea to keep skill flipping and it would be the best over what we have right now.

 

As long as the elite stays unique like so, bring it. Have it this way, you use a skill then it prompts a visual change to that slot with the ability to switch that skill slot to either and like said, if you don't press that button in time (3 seconds), it remains on the last one you used with it's attributed cooldown to which that cooldown is also depleted during the possible switch itself, don't have the CD pause like it's a channel of sort.

 

F2 should remain as Energy Meld, F3 should allow you to mass flip to Archemorus and grant offensive boons, F4 be the latter but to Saint Viktor and grant defensive boons, boons will justify the fact that you can be in already fully of dedicated to one of the alliance and still get benefit by using it. Both should have a cast time similar to Ancient Echo however their cooldown be the same 10 seconds. There's little exploit or broken mechanic here to be seen with such ability, it even simulates what most seems to be wanting if you have F3 and F4, never have to flip any skills, can just change in between.

 

Make it happen Anet, I may as well been on the side on going on the easy about it to save you hours, but this is the solution that could make everyone happy and that's the better way of doing it over not having anything at all for either sides.

 

Original post:

 

First to start with the elephant in the room, it wasn't skill flipping that bottlenecked the legend, it was the sudden stop of movement at the end of evade preventing effective use of it and the large consumption of energy on F2 ruining any potential follow ups that could would be possible without, considering swapping legends was always the only option afterwards. Being able to camp them now creates an incredibly overpowered amount shenanigans which the primary design wouldn't be possible and now requires an extremely horrendous amount of rework for several skills to balance which would be really bad and ruin it further. 

 

The need for switching to either Viktor or Archemorus became extremely trivial depending on the gamemode, notably Viktor for PvP/WvW because of the really powerful sustain and Archemorus for PvE because of the really high amount of damage that STILL doesn't make it anymore satisfying to most players which shows that no matter the way you do it, nothing will be suitable until you repeat ideas that already exist. Having a legend swap within a legend adds a lot of jank to the flow of Revenant as is arguably not really alike with the profession main design considering how easy it is to use skills over and over right now. Skill flipping was a great idea and mostly well executed with the skills themselves not needing a high CD either nor high costs because it would ruin the way things were, only the control over skill flipping at a high cost of energy was a poor decision because you can't do anything else like said before.

 

The separation of Energy Meld is a welcomed changed and it's not to say that it's entirely bad to have the ability to skill flip manually with a cast time, it's a good thing to do so if you bring back the old skill flipping. It's not if you keep it the way things are right now, reason being players are hard stuck with decisions as if it was a third legend instead of being able to hybrid at all based on their own decisions.

 

It's with clear intend that with no cost to force a flip, you give players just as much control without taking away the fun aspect of the legend because there's a flow available to keep up with. In a way putting forth that if players wanted to stay on the offense, they easily can by using up their offense skills, alliance skillflip, throw a weapon rotation, repeat offensive skills and by the time they're done, alliance is available again. Showing that having it's not necessary to force stances to stick since players can do it themselves with the existing mechanic being properly implemented with F3.

 

Now onto skills;

 

The Urn, I want to say that I love the idea behind that skill and I wish that it was more obvious to most at how it ain't so bad but in fact such an efficient way to heal others as a Revenant without much effort, it's often as simple as using it then dropping it to get already decent benefits. Please don't rework that skill, perhaps buff the heal on drop but otherwise, let it be the instant cast that it is.

 

Reaver's Rage, definitely needed this daze, it allows great opportunity to be offensive with the legend, keep that one in!

 

Mist Swing, all of the autoattack skills have REALLY poor reach and cleave compared about anything, this really needs to be fixed, someone has already showed it on reddit and to see how Rangers have such hitbox compared Rev's one, it's really unpleasant.

 

Mist Unleashed, range still needs to be increased. Like way more, at least around another half as it is a frontal cone. Match the animation if anything.

 

Phantom's Onslaught, misleading tool tip as the range is still wrong and doesn't even go close to half the range it suggests.

 

Imperial's Guard, the range is just as bad if not worst than the autoattack skills, this really needs to be increased as well.

 

Eternity's Requiem, this skill is a really neat thing to have in concept but the guaranteed hits are a really bad idea, it deals WAY too much damage from a PvP stand point as it focuses only one player if that's all there is which can deal insane damage (Up to 12k on heavy armor which is ridiculous coming from only one skill.) while in PvE can be extremely underwhelming because the AoE is based around the player which a lot of hits unless surrounded will miss, hence why the suggestion for it would be to make it a target AoE with 'no guaranteed hits' to avoid the bias of single target while increasing the potential hits on single targets, be large or small. I know that a lot of players may come at me and say "Unrelenting Assault is just as good if we compare them in 1v1!" well yeah but Unrelenting Assault doesn't deal in the whereabouts of 900 damage per hit on Berserker with the potential for more. Yes it can deal up to 10k with Impossible Odds but that's the thing, it's not just the skill itself alone, not to forget you can combine Impossible Odds with Eternity's Requiem also, ridiculous.

 

As for traits in mostly WvW/PvP;

 

Saint of Zu Heltzer, for the love of anything NERF that trait, 3k healing with 3k barrier without investing any Healing Power is beyond overpowered, at least reduce it by half entirely while higher co-efficients make up for that in PvP/WvW.

 

Imperial Impact, after evade protection is an extremely strong benefit. A nerf in between 4 or 3 seconds at least in PvP/WvW would really help that. The evade is much more accessible now and Revenant doesn't need permanent protection with all the Weakness it can already inflict.

 

Bugs;

 

Somehow, there's Quickness obtained when switching to Vindicator legend which I suspect Spirit Boon is the culprit and doesn't belong.

 

This is mostly what I think is objectively required from Vindicator to make everyone happy without also being weak or overpowered.

 

Also as a reminder if you're reading this Anet, please fix Revenant Hammer 2 (Coalescence of Ruins) AoE being too far up ahead of the player, making hits impossible at close range. You've balanced the damage on it there's no reason for that to occur, the sound is bugged as there is none and the speed at which the skill moves forward is much slower than it previously was. The hitbox as well is seemingly smaller than it used to be.

 

ᴵ ᶜᵒⁿᵍʳᵃᵗᵘˡᵃᵗᵉ ʸᵒᵘ ᶠᵒʳ ʳᵉᵃᵈᶦⁿᵍ ᵃˡˡ ᵗʰᵉ ʷᵃʸ ᵈᵒʷⁿ, ᵃᵗ ˡᵉᵃˢᵗ ᴵ ʰᵒᵖᵉ ʸᵒᵘ ᵈᶦᵈ.

have mentioned many times, I reckon being able to have a mix of BOTH Legends adds to the whole teamwork thing far better and that way you can have the ones you want\need on hand like the others, no silly flipping.

[Shao.7236]

20 hours ago, Joxer.6024 said:

have mentioned many times, I reckon being able to have a mix of BOTH Legends adds to the whole teamwork thing far better and that way you can have the ones you want\need on hand like the others, no silly flipping.

Oh yeah, having possible customization in a legend skillset is definitely better. Even more awesome if it can be done mid combat. Don't get it confused, that's still skill flipping, obviously there's actual control to it.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Fueki.4753]

7 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Oh yeah, having possible customization in a legend skillset is definitely better.

With the Utility bar customization bugs Revenant already is suffering from, which Arenanet isn't going to fix anywhere in the near future (if ever), I don't think any fiddling with further customization could somehow result in a positive reception from the player base.

[Shao.7236]

56 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

With the Utility bar customization bugs Revenant already is suffering from, which Arenanet isn't going to fix anywhere in the near future (if ever), I don't think any fiddling with further customization could somehow result in a positive reception from the player base.

I don't get what you're trying to say here, still fact being the utility bugs are only a thing of the present as templates began to exist and only occur when templates are used. It wasn't a problem before, I highly doubt that it's relevant here anyway.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Zaret.1450]

if skill flip returns vindicator will become a dead spec unless it deals 40kdmg and heals like a beast with a rare build

[Shao.7236]

5 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

if skill flip returns vindicator will become a dead spec unless it deals 40kdmg and heals like a beast with a rare build

You didn't read anything at all.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 1/4/2022 at 11:10 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Oh yeah, having possible customization in a legend skillset is definitely better. Even more awesome if it can be done mid combat. Don't get it confused, that's still skill flipping, obviously there's actual control to it.

How that would work actually in the UI?

im interpreting that like having 2 skills to press like 2 utility bars but when one used the correspondent of that skill on the other legend from the aliance will endter in CD as well?

I cant visualize it ._.

[Shao.7236]

16 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

How that would work actually in the UI?

im interpreting that like having 2 skills to press like 2 utility bars but when one used the correspondent of that skill on the other legend from the aliance will endter in CD as well?

I cant visualize it ._.

It heavily borrows from the Herald Facet mechanics.

 

Say you start on Archemorus, you use a skill then after full use of the skill swap icon prompts for 3 seconds offering change to Viktor, not pressing it in the time window results in keeping Archemorus. Now just do this but for every skills in the utility, you keep absolute freedom of whether you want either while also with the F keys can mass flip to either as well, boons provided as so that you can still get benefits even if flipping does nothing to your utility bar.

 

They can go on and use some fancy icon that significates changing to either for people who quickly forget at the worst time (Tends to be me.) or have it simple like some custom bundle icon. (Less to work with but still efficient.)

 

For those whom worry about accidental skill swaps, you'd really have to mash for more than half a second after the use of the skill to do so because skill completion is required for swaps to be offered in the first place.

 

We keep everything that made Vindicator good in the last beta as well as bringing back flipping which allow for a mixture of fun things to do, Revenant is in need of that with how hard locked utilities are, giving too many skills locked behind what is fundamentally a third legend is not fun and super inefficient for the playstyle of the profession.

 

Let's not forget that forced skill flipping wasn't the only jank in the first beta, lots of things were also weak or not good by design choice. (IE: Stopping short at the end of evade, making hits impossible without some sort of passive soft-cc/hard-cc, which Revenant can do don't get me wrong but too niche to be fun.) There's still stun to address as well, notably GS jank too.

 

Hate to say it but lot of users don't read anything but the title thinking that all I (personally me and only a few it seems) we want the old hard lock mechanic, we don't. Where with all my years of experience with Revenant really want to provide fair points for everyone, those who don't play much and the elites as me alike with others should not frown on Vindicator because this new legend will either be really unfun or really fun based on what happens in the coming month.

 

If Anet doesn't do anything about it, I'll have it on reminder for somehow someone at devs to see it because I won't be playing much of the new legend if it gets designed like it was in the last beta and most will realize how quickly unfun it can be to have it so tedious in simplicity, because what we had right now was either REALLY complex with forced flips or REALLY simple with no flips at all.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Thon.3780]

Just my opinion 

the way to solve is F2 is free flip w/o cd while each skill have its own cd . So you play and flip as you want and manage on your own

 

second option is ANET at one more skill bar on top and use Alt+  Number . Each skill also have own cd

so you just play and manage.  No need F2 flip

[Aeolus.3615]

 

@Shao.7236  I dont think we need that  legend inside legend swaping to legend and timmer on skills, that would completicate de class itself IMO.

IMOI the simplies the best for players and developers,  vindicator could work just like elementalist with 3 legends while 2 are mandatory this way would give more power to players wich legend to go to?

That would be the excelsior of the elite spec 3 legends unique feature.

F1- Arch

F2-Vic

F3- Core legend free slot.

F4 - Some effect to  active  on current legend.

IMO this would be super simple and keep the KISS principle on some mechanics to avoid making it a spaghetti UI and skillflow.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Shao.7236]

7 hours ago, Thon.3780 said:

Just my opinion 

the way to solve is F2 is free flip w/o cd while each skill have its own cd . So you play and flip as you want and manage on your own

 

second option is ANET at one more skill bar on top and use Alt+  Number . Each skill also have own cd

so you just play and manage.  No need F2 flip

 

F2 to be like weapon swap but for utility with no cooldown? Not a bad idea, less spaghetti for sure, but questionably not as cool.

 

Second is too much, Anet would have to do way more by introducing buttons that don't exist yet in the game.

 

2 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

@Shao.7236  I dont think we need that  legend inside legend swaping to legend and timmer on skills, that would completicate de class itself IMO.

IMOI the simplies the best for players and developers,  vindicator could work just like elementalist with 3 legends while 2 are mandatory this way would give more power to players wich legend to go to?

That would be the excelsior of the elite spec 3 legends unique feature.

F1- Arch

F2-Vic

F3- Core legend free slot.

F4 - Some effect to  active  on current legend.

IMO this would be super simple and keep the KISS principle on some mechanics to avoid making it a spaghetti UI and skillflow.

 

I think you missed a bit.

 

Currently what we played last beta was pretty much a legend swap within a legend compared the more freeform flip from the first beta.

 

Reason why I don't want nor Anet probably to have a similar style legend swap button next to the existing one is because it would change the fundamental too much which looks like a bigger nightmare to code in compared the latter solution, considering how they are already having so many issues with Revenant legend swap alone, esp with templates.

 

Going the utility way would isolate all the features in an existing formula that they know.