Vindicator recommendations, notably skill flipping needs to return.

[Empirical.6504]

I'd really like to see Skill flipping come back, feels boring now.

[Shao.7236]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Given vindicator is now a 37k power DPS, it's a leading power DPS now. 

And 15k minimum 25k for a pure DPS isn't even acceptable. 35k DPS is the minimum anything lower is a joke lol. 

Heralds only functionality is boon herald.. it's DPS is a joke Also. 

Skill flipping was one of the largest critics of the elite and had alot more negativity around it then positivity. That's why it's gone. Anet are gonna cater to the feedback the majority follow realistically it's never gonna appease everyone. 

And accidently pressing a average ability is fine. Accidently swapping to urn in spvp puts you without a elite lol 

 

Time limits are forgiving, 15k per player is around the minimum to factually succeed, what players define as acceptable after it becomes pure elitism in the big picture, if you care so much about getting the best you shouldn't care about what you have to play therefor the argument becomes irrelevant in min maxing. Whether Vindicator made it in the meta or not, people will still have to play Renegade.

 

The PvP mention is funny, you really underestimate the ability to instantly mitigate 50% and back out with mere legend swapping if CC'd, "Leaves you without an elite" is taking it way out of proprotion.

 

We can keep saying skill flipping was horrible, it still can work and should be implemented for those who care to have it. Not everything is meant to be easy and having more options for a profession that already can't vary their utility like others is much desired.

 

11 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Terrible suggestions. The class mechanics of beta 4 are fine, with the overwhelming majority of players happy about the changes. They just need to tweak the numbers to make Vindicator stronger in pve. There is some great feedback given in the main thread. 

Also give it some visual appeal. The spec is visually super boring. 

 

The suggestions don't affect you unless you fat finger everything. So "terrible" is a low blow for those who care to do more than sit on the same skills.

 

It's like most can't see that whether you can fully switch or not, both skills set feel incomplete for what the legend was intended for and impossible to work together with the way things are right now. Part of why skill flipping and Vindicator flow was truly hated as I keep saying and most forget ain't just flipping itself;

 

* Long CD in between flips.

* Costly F2 that you can't follow up anything with.

* Evades halted mid way.

 

Now most think not having flips is good because;

 

* Low CD to all skills.

* F2 now being F3 has no cost and can do follow ups.

* Evades don't stop player movement.

 

Again, so much hate for something that many don't have the big picture of.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Shao.7236

[phokus.8934]

"Having the ability to change by just tapping once more after using the skill is a great idea to keep skill flipping and it would be the best over what we have right now."

Certainly subjective above but what we have now with Vindicator is the best.  Having a skill that you double press to skill flip isn't good design.  In wvw and pvp if you have 1-2 seconds remaining on a cool down you're going to spam that utility so having it flip does no one any good.

Anet was a little too ambitious with dual legends and trying to make skill flip work without inherent flaws.  They'll most likely go live with what we have today and drastically change it in the future as a rework.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, phokus.8934 said:

"Having the ability to change by just tapping once more after using the skill is a great idea to keep skill flipping and it would be the best over what we have right now."

Certainly subjective above but what we have now with Vindicator is the best.  Having a skill that you double press to skill flip isn't good design.  In wvw and pvp if you have 1-2 seconds remaining on a cool down you're going to spam that utility so having it flip does no one any good.

Anet was a little too ambitious with dual legends and trying to make skill flip work without inherent flaws.  They'll most likely go live with what we have today and drastically change it in the future as a rework.

 

All skills with a cast time and CD on Revenant don't react right away so it's safe to assume the flip won't occur until completion of the skill which is the time frame that will prevent it.

 

Only the Urn would really be this jank.

[Puck.3697]

14 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Time limits are forgiving, 15k per player is around the minimum to factually succeed, what players define as acceptable after it becomes pure elitism in the big picture, if you care so much about getting the best you shouldn't care about what you have to play therefor the argument becomes irrelevant in min maxing. Whether Vindicator made it in the meta or not, people will still have to play Renegade

It's nothing to do with being the "best" but here's the fact proffessions are susposed to be competitively balanced to the best they can manage. 

I mean your never gonna get 9 proffessions doing 40k damage. But getting the 9 proffessions to do 34-40k DPS is much more acceptable realistically. 

15k might be a minimum sure. But when making unorganised groups you have to accept the fast majority of players will only play their proffession to a 50 percentile. Which means if a proffession does 20k at max, they won't do 15k DPS in the average players hands. 

To add to this, your forgetting support and tanks will not do 15k DPS among everyone else. So you have to actually increase that number to actually validate your statement. 

You don't have to "minmax" to desire to be within 15% balancing of other proffessions when playing. Proffession built for the same role. 

14 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Vindicator made it in the meta or not, people will still have to play Renegade

Untrue, if as rumoured we do see 10 man buffs that exist dropped to 5 man it actually won't be near as compulsory as 2 supports offer alacrity meaning you can role compress using one. 

U cannot predict the meta in a expansion we don't know. Ontop of that prior the changes that have been said to be happening to core proffessions and current elites at EoD launch or shortly after which grouch spoke about. 

14 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

can keep saying skill flipping was horrible, it still can work and should be implemented for those who care to have it. Not everything is meant to be easy and having more options for a profession that already can't vary their utility like others is much desired

One side has to effectively win this argument, and Anet will have to make the decision on who that will be. 

Nothing to do with ease. It's to do with making balancing these speccs simple. If Anet over complicate elite choices (i.e harbinger has this same headache for them) they will spend too much time having to alter or rework them they will lose development time on the actual game (they may not be worked on by the same people but they both do come out of the budget allocated) 

Flipping skills makes trying to keep it competitively balanced as possible in 3 modes vastly harder to manage, so yes. Given this game has gone without content for 3 years and we have seen do nothing but try fix the absolute catastrophe PoF speccs brought and them deleting dodges nerfing stuff continously and more I'd prefer if Anet kept this simple for the sake of less time required fiddling and more money put towards the actual content the game provides. 

Flipping skills, abilities reducing max hp for more DMG and these things are complicated areas because the balancing is so much harder to hit on the head 

Also ontop of that I rly don't get why it's a "difficulty" level to walk have flipping abilities. It was a issue with these abilities weren't all viable in every game mode therefore players were forced into stuff. 

Player choice is important and maybe there are compromises as you mentioned I just don't trust Anet to manage that 😂 but as I said. One side will win on this and one will not... Anets decision realistically. And we prolly won't know which way they will sway til launch 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[phokus.8934]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

 

All skills with a cast time and CD on Revenant don't react right away so it's safe to assume the flip won't occur until completion of the skill which is the time frame that will prevent it.

 

Only the Urn would really be this jank.

What does that even mean?  They're on cooldown, they're counting down, you spam the key and if other skills are not queued up it will fire.

With what you want, as soon as you press the skill again even if it's on cooldown it'll flip over.

Without another beta planned, it's safe to assume the current system is going live and it solves every mechanical complaint that was.  Design aside, it could be better but it doesn't have holes in it like the rest of the ideas posted here.

[Shao.7236]

4 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

What does that even mean?  They're on cooldown, they're counting down, you spam the key and if other skills are not queued up it will fire.

With what you want, as soon as you press the skill again even if it's on cooldown it'll flip over.

Without another beta planned, it's safe to assume the current system is going live and it solves every mechanical complaint that was.  Design aside, it could be better but it doesn't have holes in it like the rest of the ideas posted here.

Skills won't suggest flip until fully used which leaves ample time to not mistakenly use them. That's just how it worked in the first beta and should work with the recommendation, it would be extremely overpowered to use skills back to back instantly.

 

Skills cast time, even the tiniest always have had delay to their CD. Facet of Light is a good example of that, it has the smallest of cast time yet doesn't switch to Infuse Light until fully done which can be felt when spamming the key.

 

This is the same delay any skills Revenant with cast time and CD would have, what you're mentioning prior is something like Riposting Shadows or RotGD which has instant reaction to it because there's no CD buffer to stop the game from reacting to it.

 

If that somehow turns out to not be enough, they can easily add a 1 second delay on top alike with how OOC weapon swap works and reducd the flip window to 2 seconds to keep in line with the 3 seconds base because all skills, only Urn is the exception to this but it can honestly do with it anyway to accomodate it.

[Kidel.2057]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:56 AM, Shao.7236 said:

Again, so much hate for something that many don't have the big picture of.

That's a bit arrogant, isn't it? Just a little bit. You must be the smartest person in your house, but that's not a good metric to understand your place in the world. 
  

On 12/12/2021 at 1:56 AM, Shao.7236 said:

The suggestions don't affect you unless you fat finger everything

Spamming the skill button is often the most effective way to queue up skills in online games. It's something that people tend to do because it's effective and works. Watch ANY stream from ANY pro player doing raid, pvp or wvw. They all press the same skill button more than once. There are many terrible suggestions on this forum, but yours is definitely the worst. 

I mean, it wouldn't even work with 100% perfect connection and no latency all the time.

Aside from that specific one, your suggestion has 2 general flaws: 
1. It's a system that doesn't exixt yet and would require effort, testing and feedback in a loop. Implementing that at this stage is overwhelmingly stupid. If you had any idea about software development and product development you'd be far less arrogant in your bogus suggestions. 
2. It's an overcomplicated system that you're suggesting only because you like the idea. As you said yourself, "the suggestions don't affect you", it's meaningless, and does not follow KISS principles (keep it simple stupid). 

Tl;DR: you're proposing an overcomplicated system that nobody would like, and at the worst possible moment. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[lunaeclipse.6843]

Honestly, originally i thought the skill flipping was fine. After playing it without the skill flipping, please don't bring it back.

[Jthug.9506]

On 12/11/2021 at 8:36 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Given vindicator is now a 37k power DPS, it's a leading power DPS now. 

And 15k minimum 25k for a pure DPS isn't even acceptable. 35k DPS is the minimum anything lower is a joke lol. 

Heralds only functionality is boon herald.. it's DPS is a joke Also. 

Skill flipping was one of the largest critics of the elite and had alot more negativity around it then positivity. That's why it's gone. Anet are gonna cater to the feedback the majority follow realistically it's never gonna appease everyone. 

And accidently pressing a average ability is fine. Accidently swapping to urn in spvp puts you without a elite lol 

 

I don’t know about you but having archamorus skills active felt like being without an elite as far as I was concerned. If an enemy target was moving at all SoA was going to miss and do zero damage 100% of the time. It was a button not worth pressing. Urn at least provided a small amount of utility when I was on the st viktor side, although I think it would be a lot cooler if the urn upkeep also gave super speed, and the drop cleared all conditions.

[Puck.3697]

37 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

I don’t know about you but having archamorus skills active felt like being without an elite as far as I was concerned. If an enemy target was moving at all SoA was going to miss and do zero damage 100% of the time. It was a button not worth pressing. Urn at least provided a small amount of utility when I was on the st viktor side, although I think it would be a lot cooler if the urn upkeep also gave super speed, and the drop cleared all conditions.

Well yes the spear felt pretty bad but I'm kinda hoping Anet will make this skill much better by live haha 

[Aeolus.3615]

58 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Well yes the spear felt pretty bad but I'm kinda hoping Anet will make this skill much better by live haha 

The invoked spirits needs:

- to stay alive and walk besides the Vindicator or at least apear when caster uses its ammo skill.

- Keep its 2k range

-detailed travel tracking to the eye and ears :)

- uses ammo mechanic to launch spear  at distant enemies.

-Maybe change the skill from torment to burn and chill , this could also support other condi revs at range :))) since condi revs aply torment on chill.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Shao.7236]

8 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

That's a bit arrogant, isn't it? Just a little bit. You must be the smartest person in your house, but that's not a good metric to understand your place in the world. 
  

Spamming the skill button is often the most effective way to queue up skills in online games. It's something that people tend to do because it's effective and works. Watch ANY stream from ANY pro player doing raid, pvp or wvw. They all press the same skill button more than once. There are many terrible suggestions on this forum, but yours is definitely the worst. 

I mean, it wouldn't even work with 100% perfect connection and no latency all the time.

Aside from that specific one, your suggestion has 2 general flaws: 
1. It's a system that doesn't exixt yet and would require effort, testing and feedback in a loop. Implementing that at this stage is overwhelmingly stupid. If you had any idea about software development and product development you'd be far less arrogant in your bogus suggestions. 
2. It's an overcomplicated system that you're suggesting only because you like the idea. As you said yourself, "the suggestions don't affect you", it's meaningless, and does not follow KISS principles (keep it simple stupid). 

Tl;DR: you're proposing an overcomplicated system that nobody would like, and at the worst possible moment. 

Did I hit a cord? Speaking objectively is part of what settles down anything right, it's not arrogant in the slightest to call it player issue especially as it can be proven. By the way anyone "smart" enough can figure out the possibility of it, you don't know me nor have you any idea if I work with formatting code or not.

 

You're blowing it out of proportions and using irrelevant excuses to justify against facts that tell otherwise. People mash because they can, they wouldn't if they shouldn't, there are already existing failsafes that I've explained earlier in the game as well, going out of your way to blame the system is not gonna do anything, considering you, yourself probably play Herald as much and deal with the fact that some keys shouldn't be mashed, that's a bit ironic.

 

That system is not overcomplicated and this content in the making, not mere profession changes after 2 years of release.

 

You, you, you. It's like I am completely unable to put forth for anyone, but that's again something you assume and don't know at all about me, you should stop assuming so much before you it hits you in the face.

[Shao.7236]

6 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

The invoked spirits needs:

- to stay alive and walk besides the Vindicator or at least apear when caster uses its ammo skill.

- Keep its 2k range

-detailed travel tracking to the eye and ears 🙂

- uses ammo mechanic to launch spear  at distant enemies.

-Maybe change the skill from torment to burn and chill , this could also support other condi revs at range :))) since condi revs aply torment on chill.

 

 

CC'ing someone prior to spear being launched worked wonders, which is assumed to be the way that it should work with considering the damage, range and delay to it.

 

Like one of the thing that I did the most when beta was available is Spear, Axe 5, Evade burst into. It would deal really satisfying damage.

 

Reason why I think they went straight to torment is so you don't have to trait for chill, they could otherwise add some burning to it. It's pretty fitting.

[Howluffu.7259]

kitten, dude chill out.😄

[InsaneQR.7412]

Honestly the easiest fix for vindicator is if Saint Viktor would do damage that has low overall base damage but scales very strongly and archemorus grants lifesteal with a very oow starting value but scales heavily with healing power. And then bring back skill flipping.

Reason why vindicator was weird to play was because you never used one side of the pallette unless you played a bruiser resustainy build. For a healer you didnt neded the damage and for a DPS you didnt wanted the healing. If both would benefit from either stat i thonk vindicator could be really cool to play.

[Aeolus.3615]

15 hours ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

kitten, dude chill out.😄

I am very tormented atm!

 

 

16 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

(snip)

Like one of the thing that I did the most when beta was available is Spear, Axe 5, Evade burst into. It would deal really satisfying damage.

(snip)

In that case can make some sense :)

Edited December 14, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Kidel.2057]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:07 AM, Shao.7236 said:

Did I hit a cord? Speaking objectively is part of what settles down anything right, it's not arrogant in the slightest to call it player issue especially as it can be proven. By the way anyone "smart" enough can figure out the possibility of it, you don't know me nor have you any idea if I work with formatting code or not.

 

You're blowing it out of proportions and using irrelevant excuses to justify against facts that tell otherwise. People mash because they can, they wouldn't if they shouldn't, there are already existing failsafes that I've explained earlier in the game as well, going out of your way to blame the system is not gonna do anything, considering you, yourself probably play Herald as much and deal with the fact that some keys shouldn't be mashed, that's a bit ironic.

 

That system is not overcomplicated and this content in the making, not mere profession changes after 2 years of release.

 

You, you, you. It's like I am completely unable to put forth for anyone, but that's again something you assume and don't know at all about me, you should stop assuming so much before you it hits you in the face.

Did I hit a cord? Anyway your opinion doesn't matter anymore to me, since you've shown your true face and basically the whole community is against your idea. 

Funny enough, I've never seen a post with so many negative reactions.

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Did I hit a cord? Anyway your opinion doesn't matter anymore to me, since you've shown your true face and basically the whole community is against your idea. 

Funny enough, I've never seen a post with so many negative reactions.

Factually, not really, other than that reason I want the best of both world and you act like I am selfish for it because making an ever so slight small compromise would ruin the entire PvE experience for many that wants easy gameplay, proven by your "Keep It Super Simple", this ain't some vague assumption, you said it yourself.

 

I am not opiniated in the slightest here, there's more evidence to show that there is arguably anybody disagreeing. 

 

My true face is that I play PvP most of the time and I don't want this game new content ruined by the aspect of keeping it casual. It has been downward spiral long enough, I am taking a stance against the forever never satisified because they refuse to take on an ever so slightly complex idea and work with it, because wanting it this easy doesn't have to ruin it for anyone else that wants more out of this than "Keeping It Super Simple".

 

Because it feels good the way it is doesn't mean it should be kept like this, it just shows how truly neglected Vindicator is by the community and don't know what's good long term.

 

Wishing for the next 5 years to be this boring on Revenant, how low have of a standard could have we reached.

 

 

[Kidel.2057]

Man you even fail to understand what "keep it simple" means. It's not targeted towards gameplay, but towards design. And I wasn't really talking about pve, but the game in general (I'm mainly a wvw player myself). 

It would be pointless to keep up the conversation (as I said in my previous post), as you fail to grasp very easy and basic concepts. There is no common ground to make you understand and you're stubborn enough for me to lose interest. You also shifted it to pvp elitism, so I'm even less interested. I thought you had already showed your true face, but you still managed to deliver. I admit that was a bit entertaining 😂

Reactions to your posts are enough for me. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Kidel.2057
Too many newlines

[Shao.7236]

4 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Man you even fail to understand what "keep it simple" means. It's not targeted towards gameplay, but towards design. And I wasn't really talking about pve, but the game in general (I'm mainly a wvw player myself). 

It would be pointless to keep up the conversation (as I said in my previous post), as you fail to grasp very easy and basic concepts. There is no common ground to make you understand and you're stubborn enough for me to lose interest. You also shifted it to pvp elitism, so I'm even less interested. I thought you had already showed your true face, but you still managed to deliver. I admit that was a bit entertaining 😂

Reactions to your posts are enough for me. 

Public scrutiny doesn't make anymore sense if they don't provide evidence that it actually does other than personal reasons such as "accidently" pressing buttons. There is also objective evidence that no skills could be so accidently pressed because of the delay in between casts, you'd have to be willingly doing it even as a slowpoke to cause such mistakes.

 

It's not a personal reason that Revenant is in need of something new and there's better to have be had than a legend swap within a legend. Why so afraid of a concept that benefits everyone at equal demands? That's not selfish in the slightest as you otherwise consider me, which surprisingly I have to state since it wasn't obvious enough.

 

I never have had expectations from the public to accept something new, but to refuse proper integration. It's no wonder why I am recommended to not even discuss on the forums, I still do because I do have hope that Anet doesn't catter to such simplicity that core gameplay still dominates in every single interesting aspects.

[phokus.8934]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Public scrutiny doesn't make anymore sense if they don't provide evidence that it actually does other than personal reasons such as "accidently" pressing buttons. There is also objective evidence that no skills could be so accidently pressed because of the delay in between casts, you'd have to be willingly doing it even as a slowpoke to cause such mistakes.

 

It's not a personal reason that Revenant is in need of something new and there's better to have be had than a legend swap within a legend. Why so afraid of a concept that benefits everyone at equal demands? That's not selfish in the slightest as you otherwise consider me, which surprisingly I have to state since it wasn't obvious enough.

 

I never have had expectations from the public to accept something new, but to refuse proper integration. It's no wonder why I am recommended to not even discuss on the forums, I still do because I do have hope that Anet doesn't catter to such simplicity that core gameplay still dominates in every single interesting aspects.

What you want is not what others want based on how they want to play Vindicator.  It's pretty overwhelming that the original design with the skill flips wasn't not well received.  And the majority of people don't want the skill flips.

Edited December 30, 2021 by phokus.8934

[Shao.7236]

12 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

What you want is not what others want based on how they want to play Vindocator.  It's pretty overwhelming that the original design with the skill flips wasn't not well received.  And the majority of people don't want the skill flips.

No, most if not everyone only read title and don't get any context whatsoever, those that do pull out reasons that aren't valid because those problems are already alleviated with how the game work.

 

As I said, baffling that having any form of freedom in utility is something frowned upon on Revenant. Skill flipping in it's first iteration was "bad" for the majority and to admit I agree that it's too convoluted, however it's not the only way they can do it and it sure as hell wasn't the only reason why it sucked. The consumption of energy on F2 was really the cherry on top of an impossible flow to be had in between both Alliances.

[phokus.8934]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

No, most if not everyone only read title and don't get any context whatsoever, those that do pull out reasons that aren't valid because those problems are already alleviated with how the game work.

  I'm not sure what you're referring to here.  I was commenting on the original Vindicator skill flip that no one wanted in the first iteration.

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

As I said, baffling that having any form of freedom in utility is something frowned upon on Revenant. Skill flipping in it's first iteration was "bad" for the majority and to admit I agree that it's too convoluted, however it's not the only way they can do it and it sure as hell wasn't the only reason why it sucked. The consumption of energy on F2 was really the cherry on top of an impossible flow to be had in between both Alliances.

I don't think anyone doesn't want freedom of utility.  Personally, I'd rather have a choice but not behind some weird implementation.  What we have today is far from ideal but I can't see ANet drastically changing how it works based off of fringe requests.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, phokus.8934 said:

  I'm not sure what you're referring to here.  I was commenting on the original Vindicator skill flip that no one wanted in the first iteration.

I don't think anyone doesn't want freedom of utility.  Personally, I'd rather have a choice but not behind some weird implementation.  What we have today is far from ideal but I can't see ANet drastically changing how it works based off of fringe requests.

The suggestion embraces the idea that they originally intended without limiting itself.