AliamRationem.5172 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: There is no semantics here ... Did Anet say they balance to meta in the patch notes or not? If they didn't say that, I'm NOT WRONG when I say it was never said. I'm probably also not wrong when I speculate they aren't balancing classes to meta even if they don't say so ... because the game certainly isn't evidence they do. Nothing in the patch notes is going to contradict that either (because I know exactly where you are going with this 'didn't read patch notes' nonsense) I get it's really important to you to advocate balancing to a meta standard ... it just doesn't happen, t doesn't need to happen and it shouldn't happen for lots of good reasons. You're usually not wrong about anything, Obtena. Unfortunately, you're usually not right either (it tends to happen when you aren't actually taking a position on anything). And your brain is incapable of seeing anything in the space between, which is why arguing with you is pointless. We'll have deep conversations about the meaning of words, riveting tales of what I did or didn't say, and ultimately end up going in circles either forever or until whoever is unfortunate enough (I wish I knew better by now but you're in basically every single thread on the forum soo....) to try to discuss anything with you stops responding (because you must always have the last word in everything!). Anyway, I'm going to try to see my way out of this one. Peace. Edited January 27, 2022 by AliamRationem.5172 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 9 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said: You seem to have omitted the part where I was using this as an example of Meta-Breaking. The developers in games (I am speaking generally, not specific to GW2) create tools for players to use to overcome content (PvE or PvP). While developers provide the tools, players will generally try to find the best way to use them, or even break them. In PvE, a developer will create , for example, a Boss that has millions of health, and then give the tools to players to see if they can overcome it. The first question to ask is "do the players know how to use the tools we have provided them". The second is "do the tools provide enough for the players to meet the minimum requirements to defeat this boss". If the above two questions are satisfactorily answered by the developer, then they have set the Meta framework for the players. What ends up happening though is players, over time, find more efficient ways to use the tools. They find ways to bypass mechanics or complete content in unintended ways. In some cases the players go so far as to break the meta. 10 Chrono was Meta-Breaking and was nerfed because it was too efficient. It allowed players to play content in an unintended way. I think it important to re-iterate that developers focus on the minimum requirements of content design in PvE games. It is the players who take this and try to find the most effective ways of using them. As an aside... I recognize now that, coming from PvP games where Meta is constantly evolving based upon multiple factors, it is hard to compare this against PvE where there is always a static goal. In PvP games we see counterplay for Meta comps, assuming that the game is relatively balanced. The Meta for M:tG was anywhere from 3-7 decks in a healthy environment. As a player, knowing that at any given tourney you would be facing a selection of potential decks, you would tailor your own deck for that Meta to create counterplay to popular deck choices. As different decks rose in popularity, it was more likely that players would find strong counterplay to combat popular decks. This in turn would push players to a different deck composition, shifting the Meta. In a PvE environment, there is never a shift unless A - the developers update the tools or B - someone finds a new way to do something that gains popularity. The goal of PvE ends up being how fast and how easily can the group clear content. As another aside.... I see a lot of people who are arguing the nuances of language and missing the common ground we share. It sounds like many posters are tired of feeling like in order to be successful, you have to take the popular choice. Rather, we want to take our preferred choice and feel success. and I agree with this feeling. I would be happier if there were 3-4 equally interchangeable options for Alac and Quickness in Fractals so, as I said in my first post, it becomes 'bring the player' not 'bring the profession' That's called a mold, and mold-breaking. When you were saying meta-breaking before, I thought you meant that it was so strong as to outcompete all other reasonable builds by a substantial margin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 So, unless the devs *literally* use the phrase "we changed this because of the meta" in the patch notes, Obtena will forever always be right? That is laughable. Is this what passes for coherent thought around these parts? Anet hates Warrior. It is patently true, obvious from their changes in recent years. They consider Warrior to be in a great place right now. this is all working as intended. You can't prove me wrong, because ANet never released patch notes that include the phrase "we do not hate Warrior". Yeah, that works. My logic is undeniable and my stance is unassailable. 1 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said: So, unless the devs *literally* use the phrase "we changed this because of the meta" in the patch notes, Obtena will forever always be right? That is laughable. Is this what passes for coherent thought around these parts? The point here is simple ... there is NOTHING happening the in game in the last 9 years to demonstrate Anet is balancing ANYTHING to a meta position intentionally ... and if they are, you will be hard pressed to find that evidence, especially considering the outcome of their balancing is the OPPOSITE of what a meta-balanced game would look like. Is that 'coherent' enough for you? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Define "meta-balanced game". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said: You're usually not wrong about anything, Obtena. Unfortunately, you're usually not right either (it tends to happen when you aren't actually taking a position on anything). So i'm not right when I say Anet isn't balancing to meta ... and somehow that doesn't count as taking a position? Oh OK 🙄 So I'm just wrong and Anet has been balancing to meta for 9 years ... and that's why we have people complaining their classes aren't meta for 9 years now even though Anet has released more balance patches than we would need for them to balance to meta? Alright then 😉 Edited January 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said: Define "meta-balanced game". Um ... not what we have right now? or ever? I mean, if we have all this meta balance and I'm wrong ... why all the threads about people complaining about balance? Edited January 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Use non-circular reasoning. 1 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: Use non-circular reasoning. That's not circular reasoning. If Anet is balancing to meta ... why do we not have a game that is balanced to meta standards? It's not like the game is new. It's not like we haven't had dozens of balancing patches over it's lifetime. It's not like we don't have tons of requests for Anet to constantly balance the game because of meta. Again, the point ... if Anet is balancing to meta, it's not evident based on looking at the game. That's not just my opinion either ... it's the opinion of EVERY single person that complains about it on the forum. It's not even evident by looking at the patch notes like one poster indicated. So it's not really all that unreasonable or incoherent to think they aren't balancing to meta standards, especially if you don't ignore the fact that Anet designed this game so people can play how they want ... and they DO because of how it's NOT meta-balanced. Edited January 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 The absolute mud that is your argument is just... Wow. So they're not doing it because they haven't created some sort of meta utopia that you still refuse to define, but you claim can be seen to not exist here, but exists elsewhere in the wild. Right. Gotcha. 1 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said: So they're not doing it because they haven't created some sort of meta utopia that you still refuse to define, but you claim can be seen to not exist here, but exists elsewhere in the wild. Right. Gotcha. Well, yeah. I think it's pretty obvious when a group has a process they execute dozens of times and it doesn't result in something ... then that something is probably not the result they are going for or it's a result they can't achieve. Either way, Anet isn't balancing the game to meta. I'm not going to define meta-balanced for you, just so you can argue with me ... that's just something you asked me in bad faith. I mean, any answer I would give you ... you would just argue with me that I was wrong so I'm just not going there with you. I can tell you ... the current state of the game isn't it ... and even the people that argue with me would agree with that. I mean, it's OBVIOUS they aren't balancing the game to meta standard ... how can anyone even believe they are? Based on what? Blind faith? That's a VERY reasonable question that everyone dodges. If Anet is balancing the game meta ... then what are people complaining about? They believe it's happening right? They just need to be patient ... maybe 9 more years. People are going to claim Anet is balancing to the meta ... then they are going to contradict themselves and complain that the game isn't balanced to a meta standard ... and you say I'M the one with an absolutely mud argument. That's rich buddy. Edited January 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 I think at this point ppl want a date for the expansion so we can start to think about the added time scale we will have to wait for a balance patch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 16 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Well, yeah. I think it's pretty obvious when a group has a process they execute dozens of times and it doesn't result in something ... then that something is probably not the result they are going for or it's a result they can't achieve. Either way, Anet isn't balancing the game to meta. I'm not going to define meta-balanced for you, just so you can argue with me ... that's just something you asked me in bad faith. I mean, any answer I would give you ... you would just argue with me that I was wrong so I'm just not going there with you. I can tell you ... the current state of the game isn't it ... and even the people that argue with me would agree with that. I mean, it's OBVIOUS they aren't balancing the game to meta standard ... how can anyone even believe they are? Based on what? Blind faith? That's a VERY reasonable question that everyone dodges. If Anet is balancing the game meta ... then what are people complaining about? They believe it's happening right? They just need to be patient ... maybe 9 more years. People are going to claim Anet is balancing to the meta ... then they are going to contradict themselves and complain that the game isn't balanced to a meta standard ... and you say I'M the one with an absolutely mud argument. That's rich buddy. Well, yeah. I think it's pretty obvious when a group has a process they execute dozens of times and it doesn't result in Warrior being good ... then Warrior being god is probably not the result they are going for or it's a result they can't achieve. Either way, Anet hates Warrior. I'm not going to define Warrior being good, just so you can argue with me ... that's just something you asked me in bad faith. I mean, any answer I would give you ... you would just argue with me that I was wrong so I'm just not going there with you. I can tell you ... the current state of the game isn't it ... and even the people that argue with me would agree with that. I mean, it's OBVIOUS they aren't making the Warrior good ... how can anyone even believe they are? Based on what? Blind faith? That's a VERY reasonable question that everyone dodges. If Anet is trying to make Warrior good... then what are people complaining about? They believe it's happening right? They just need to be patient ... maybe 9 more years. People are going to claim Anet is trying to make Warrior good... then they are going to contradict themselves and complain that Warrior isn't good... and you say I'M the one with an absolutely mud argument. That's rich buddy. ANet hates Warrior. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said: ANet hates Warrior. OK ... I'm not talking about warriors so ... 🤷♂️. It also doesn't change what I said in the post you quoted. Anet isn't balancing to meta. If you think they are, you just aren't paying attention to how the game works. Your little warrior hate rant actually illustrates that fact. I love it when people who argue with me make posts that support my argument. So satisfying. Edited January 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952 1 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 How are you unable to grasp the simple concept of "balance changes *will* have effects on the meta"? ANet balancing or not to meta is... entirely relevant. Nobody here claimed otherwise; it is entirely a strawman of your own creation. Just like the Warrior bit is a charicature of one on my part, which you somehow do not recognize. I started to think that you lack the capacity for abstract thought a while ago with the whole number sets used to illustrate balancing thing. Seems I was right. Balance changes will affect the meta. Balance changes can affect the meta in a positive way, or in a negative way. This thread is call for a balance patch to "change the meta up", and has evolved into a discussion of balance changes that would, in various posters opinions, result in the meta changing in a positive way. This is not nuclear rocket surgery. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: How are you unable to grasp the simple concept of "balance changes *will* have effects on the meta"? Yes, balance changes will have effects on the meta, but balance changes aren't made specifically to affect meta. 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said: How are you unable to grasp the simple concept of "balance changes *will* have effects on the meta"? I'm more than capable of grasping that concept. The problem (for you) is that my point isn't that balancing changes can't affect meta, so it makes absolutely no sense that you would bring this up ... at all. My point is that Anet isn't balancing to a meta standard. Seems to me that the people missing the 'simple concepts' here ... isn't me. But sure ... I love the irony of YOU accusing ME of making strawmans ... feels good. Edited January 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952 3 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 25 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said: Yes, balance changes will have effects on the meta, but balance changes aren't made specifically to affect meta. Entirely irrelevant point. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugrakarma.9416 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 On 1/20/2022 at 1:29 PM, Lottie.5370 said: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity Look at the Fractals page. Would be nice to have a meta group not consisting of just ren, FB and scourge. Hell, even in Strikes those three are the biggest. but fractals are just 5 man, will always have meta consisting of "few something". the "meta" for 10 man group is a in good position, there are 3 preferred support classes the "meta", and the rest just dps, and theres lots of classes dps options now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 57 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: Entirely irrelevant point. Hardly. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 29 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said: Hardly. Completely irrelevant, in fact. The statement is correct, however, if that makes you feel any better. It seems like being right about things nobody is talking about is in fashion for this thread. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 39 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said: Hardly. OK, I'll bite. How does this revolutionary revelation of "ANet doesn't make balance changes specifically to tailor a meta" change a discussion of what balance changes we'd like to see? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said: OK, I'll bite. How does this revolutionary revelation of "ANet doesn't make balance changes specifically to tailor a meta" change a discussion of what balance changes we'd like to see? Hold on ... your statements are related to a disagreement with me about my view that Anet is not balancing to a meta standard, not about changes you want to see. Again, changes can affect the meta ... sure ... and no one questioned that in the first place and no, I don't have a problem grasping that concept either ... so it was dubious that you brought that fact up; clearly you are struggling to address my very clearly made point (hence the warrior hate post and now the derailment with non-related points, which coincidentally happen to be the same type of strawman arguments you accuse me of making). The point of contention you have with me that is being discussed here is about what target Anet uses when they make those changes, not if changes can affect meta. Again, if you want to disagree with the idea that Anet doesn't balance to meta, then talk about why that idea is wrong, not about the people you have that discussion with. Edited January 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 You keep attacking points nobody made, that are completely irrelevant to the discussion. Please stop tossing mud at topics. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) I have no idea what points you are referring to, but I can assure you that the fact that Anet doesn't balance to a meta standard is extremely relevant to the thread. Edited January 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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