New Kaineng [Lore discussion]

[The Greyhawk.9107]

23 hours ago, dusanyu.4057 said:

being honest old Kaineng being all but gone is perfectly understandable the place was a ramshackle Shanty town of hovels built upon hovels based on the real world Kowloon walled city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City  a good fart from after eating a bowl of "Baltazar's Blazes Chili" would have knocked it over

Not all of old Kaineng was a shanty town, plenty of it was made up of regular buildings as well as some mansions.

[Faridah.8431]

On 3/4/2022 at 4:07 PM, dusanyu.4057 said:

being honest old Kaineng being all but gone is perfectly understandable the place was a ramshackle Shanty town of hovels built upon hovels based on the real world Kowloon walled city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City  a good fart from after eating a bowl of "Baltazar's Blazes Chili" would have knocked it over

Eh. It had regular buildings too (like just walk around the coastal areas of Wajjun Bazaar). And to be fair, stood since the time of the Jade Wind when the refugees poured into the city and it was slapped up like that.

 

I'm ok they destroyed it, just wish they would have retained some slummier feeling areas for the vibe it gives. It was kind of a cool vibe and I miss it.

[SunRoamer.5103]

On 2/28/2022 at 1:54 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Whether this will affect the lore of what she said in-game is another matter, though. We'll see in a few hours, I imagine.

To continue this discussion, the game confirms that New Kaineng city was built on Naga lands - there's ambient dialogue from both citizens and hostile naga talking about this. Initially I hoped that the naga diatribe about their lands and tombs (?) could well just be another case of propaganda/unreliable narrator or possibly reference something that happened pre-GW1, but since citizens inside the city also talk about the same facts this indeed seems to be the official lore.

Not sure if ANet just forgot about the old Factions world map or decided that it wasn't relevant. I don't really see any lore- or gameplay-related reasons that necessitated this change, however - they could have had hostile naga around regardless, and New Kaineng city being built on reclaimed ruins vs. previously "unsettled" lands wouldn't impact the city's lore that much (except for one feeling like a bit of an unnecessary slip-up).

This also makes me wonder about the bits of undestroyed city in the very south of Cantha (close to what used to be Wona's Estate in the GW1 Bonus Mission Pack): are they considered to be part of Kaineng (the Other Old Kaineng? Old Kaineng, but not the ruined one?)? Or will they be changed to being a entirely separate city, since according to this new lore there shouldn't have been any connection between this southern urban area and what used to be Old Kaineng.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

7 hours ago, SunRoamer.5103 said:

To continue this discussion, the game confirms that New Kaineng city was built on Naga lands - there's ambient dialogue from both citizens and hostile naga talking about this. Initially I hoped that the naga diatribe about their lands and tombs (?) could well just be another case of propaganda/unreliable narrator or possibly reference something that happened pre-GW1, but since citizens inside the city also talk about the same facts this indeed seems to be the official lore.

Not sure if ANet just forgot about the old Factions world map or decided that it wasn't relevant. I don't really see any lore- or gameplay-related reasons that necessitated this change, however - they could have had hostile naga around regardless, and New Kaineng city being built on reclaimed ruins vs. previously "unsettled" lands wouldn't impact the city's lore that much (except for one feeling like a bit of an unnecessary slip-up).

This also makes me wonder about the bits of undestroyed city in the very south of Cantha (close to what used to be Wona's Estate in the GW1 Bonus Mission Pack): are they considered to be part of Kaineng (the Other Old Kaineng? Old Kaineng, but not the ruined one?)? Or will they be changed to being a entirely separate city, since according to this new lore there shouldn't have been any connection between this southern urban area and what used to be Old Kaineng.

Sounds like a retcon to me, since New Kaineng is still mostly occupying the same area as Kaineng did in GW1.

[Fueki.4753]

4 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Sounds like a retcon to me, since New Kaineng is still mostly occupying the same area as Kaineng did in GW1.

Do not forget that at least one of the lead designers has next to no knowledge of GW1's Cantha or Factions.

Things not aligning between both games should be an expected result.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, SunRoamer.5103 said:

To continue this discussion, the game confirms that New Kaineng city was built on Naga lands - there's ambient dialogue from both citizens and hostile naga talking about this. Initially I hoped that the naga diatribe about their lands and tombs (?) could well just be another case of propaganda/unreliable narrator or possibly reference something that happened pre-GW1, but since citizens inside the city also talk about the same facts this indeed seems to be the official lore.

Not sure if ANet just forgot about the old Factions world map or decided that it wasn't relevant. I don't really see any lore- or gameplay-related reasons that necessitated this change, however - they could have had hostile naga around regardless, and New Kaineng city being built on reclaimed ruins vs. previously "unsettled" lands wouldn't impact the city's lore that much (except for one feeling like a bit of an unnecessary slip-up).

This also makes me wonder about the bits of undestroyed city in the very south of Cantha (close to what used to be Wona's Estate in the GW1 Bonus Mission Pack): are they considered to be part of Kaineng (the Other Old Kaineng? Old Kaineng, but not the ruined one?)? Or will they be changed to being a entirely separate city, since according to this new lore there shouldn't have been any connection between this southern urban area and what used to be Old Kaineng.

From what I could find, the naga lands actually came about after the Zhaitan disaster. Basically meaning that naga lands were built over the ruins of Kaineng City, which New Kaineng then built over a few decades later.

I do think they destroyed more than Kaineng City than was necessary. Tahnnakai Temple being flooded, despite being so far inland and protected by the mostly-still-intact Raisu Palace is weird. Especially given

Spoiler

the fact that Soo-Won supposedly lessened the tidal wave with a counter-but-smaller tidal wave.

 

[SunRoamer.5103]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

From what I could find, the naga lands actually came about after the Zhaitan disaster. Basically meaning that naga lands were built over the ruins of Kaineng City, which New Kaineng then built over a few decades later.

Alright, I didn't find any information like that but I didn't dig around too deeply. From the dialogue I heard, it felt like these lands had always belonged to the naga due to the gravitas with which the information was presented. Has anyone found anything about this topic in one of the ingame books? (Note: it's incredibly refreshing to have an entire expansion launch with the new book UI. I forgot that this was only introduced in Season 4 - PoF was so incredibly long ago at this point.)

The expansion is still very fresh so a lot of lore tidbits still need to be properly recorded/organised. 

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I do think they destroyed more than Kaineng City than was necessary. Tahnnakai Temple being flooded, despite being so far inland and protected by the mostly-still-intact Raisu Palace is weird. Especially given

  Hide contents

the fact that Soo-Won supposedly lessened the tidal wave with a counter-but-smaller tidal wave.

True that, the dialogue in Arborstone about the Temple and its shrines also confused me a little since I had hoped that it would be one of the somewhat more resilient landmarks. Here's to hoping that it was mostly just its inventory and decorations that were flushed out but that otherwise it remains somewhat standing in the ruins similar to Raisu Palace (which, by the way, I love the way it looks on the world map).

Edited March 8, 2022 by SunRoamer.5103
formatting

[Faridah.8431]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

From what I could find, the naga lands actually came about after the Zhaitan disaster. Basically meaning that naga lands were built over the ruins of Kaineng City, which New Kaineng then built over a few decades later.

I do think they destroyed more than Kaineng City than was necessary. Tahnnakai Temple being flooded, despite being so far inland and protected by the mostly-still-intact Raisu Palace is weird. Especially given

  Hide contents

the fact that Soo-Won supposedly lessened the tidal wave with a counter-but-smaller tidal wave.

 

I think that was their way of not having to deal with making Kaineng City in GW2. That said, the map clearly shows that the former Sunjiang District area appears completely intact. Would love to see a Pongmei Valley/Sunjiang District map.

[Kalavier.1097]

I mean, wasn't the temple in the lower sections anyway? It's not stated WHEN Soo Won stopped the wave, just that she did. And dialogue in the city does mention how basically the Risen are viewed as endless as so many died and were submerged in the lower regions, only to slowly crawl out.

 

The amount of the city wrecked also serves as a great point as to why the Ministry of Purity so suddenly fell completely out of power and a new government emerged.

[dusanyu.4057]

On 3/5/2022 at 4:30 PM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Not all of old Kaineng was a shanty town, plenty of it was made up of regular buildings as well as some mansions.

That was few an far between the rest of it was a total mess and the worst part is the lore stated that it was refugees from the Jade wind. Which happend 199 years prior to the events of Factions

 

for those who may have not have played Guild Wars 1 here is a picture of What Kainang City looked like

https://imgur.com/a/DjwoEdt

there were also a few story steps that took you into the Sewers and you witnessed massive Pipes dumping Brown water the place was a mess

Edited March 13, 2022 by dusanyu.4057

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I'm simple not inclined to agree, far too much of Kaineng wasn't shacks built on shacks but real building built onto solid stone.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/d/d9/Shenzun_Tunnels.jpg

https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/4/4f/Market_2.jpg

https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/a/a1/Market_3.jpg

 

There was indeed lots of buildings that weren't shacks. But the shacks are by far the most memorable - perhaps because so many people spent time in Xaquang Skyway which had us traversing atop of those wooden structures.

[Laken.9018]

Looking at those pic makes me sad for how the solution to work round Guild Wars 1 was to just nuke every city zone from it off the map. When flicking through the old wiki you really get a feeling of a living breathing overpopulated city plagued by sprawl.

[SunRoamer.5103]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/d/d9/Shenzun_Tunnels.jpg

https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/4/4f/Market_2.jpg

https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/a/a1/Market_3.jpg

 

There was indeed lots of buildings that weren't shacks. But the shacks are by far the most memorable - perhaps because so many people spent time in Xaquang Skyway which had us traversing atop of those wooden structures.

That said, most of the buildings still seem to be made primarily of wood (apart from the foundations and public spaces, and maybe what seems to be a rare stone wall or two - it's hard to tell from just the screenshots), so them being obliterated the same as the shacks shouldn't be too surprising. Especially the market, since it bore the brunt of the tidal wave.

[Faridah.8431]

Sure most of the city by the time we got to it was a sprawling slum. But even explorable areas like Wajjun Bazaar had the types of buildings Konig linked to spanning up and down its coastal area from The Marketplace, all the way down to the Nahpui Quarter.

Anyway, could be me extrapolating too much from artistic styling on the map art, but the area that would have been Sunjiang District doesn't really look flooded to me. Would love to see some of the old city in its still standing, but most likely abandoned state.

The area of Old Kaineng in the corner of New Kaineng just really does not at all jive with how Kaineng was in my opinion. Would love to see the proper slummy parts even if abandoned and falling apart. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Faridah.8431

[The Greyhawk.9107]

On 3/14/2022 at 6:51 AM, SunRoamer.5103 said:

That said, most of the buildings still seem to be made primarily of wood (apart from the foundations and public spaces, and maybe what seems to be a rare stone wall or two - it's hard to tell from just the screenshots), so them being obliterated the same as the shacks shouldn't be too surprising. Especially the market, since it bore the brunt of the tidal wave.

Raisu Palace bore the brunt of the tidal wave, the market area was a fair bit further to the south.

Speaking of Raisu Palace, I've a question I've been meaning to see if anyone knows the answer to.  EoD basically states that Raisu is uninhabitable (if not outright obliterated) and as such isn't the home of the Empress.  We instead meet her at Shing Jea at a comparatively modest location named "Royal Court".  Is Shing Jea now the formal permanent residence of the Emperor/Empress and their court or is this just a....summer home?

[Nightgunner.2896]

47 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Raisu Palace bore the brunt of the tidal wave, the market area was a fair bit further to the south.

Speaking of Raisu Palace, I've a question I've been meaning to see if anyone knows the answer to.  EoD basically states that Raisu is uninhabitable (if not outright obliterated) and as such isn't the home of the Empress.  We instead meet her at Shing Jea at a comparatively modest location named "Royal Court".  Is Shing Jea now the formal permanent residence of the Emperor/Empress and their court or is this just a....summer home?

There's a holonews broadcast that states there's a ministry with a goal to turn the old palace into a museum and that the empress does not plan to move there as it has a troubled history

[Laken.9018]

My understanding is the Royal Court is now based on Shing Jea.
Partly because the Monastery is also less used as it was in the old days.

[SunRoamer.5103]

2 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Raisu Palace bore the brunt of the tidal wave, the market area was a fair bit further to the south.

Sure, but I would assume that the tidal wave went around (and some of it possibly above/through) the palace (creating a much more turbulent onslaught of water with whirlpools etc.) to wreck most everything behind. The market, despite being to the palace's southwest, was still right next to the Unending Ocean and thus the first to suffer from the water masses that were pushed past/around the palace walls.

What I do find curious on the world map is that the ruins seem more "intact" to the east of the palace, despite the fact that they should have been hit just as hard as Raisu Palace. Does this indicate that the elevation was higher here, or that the buildings possibly were more steadfast?

2 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Speaking of Raisu Palace, I've a question I've been meaning to see if anyone knows the answer to.  EoD basically states that Raisu is uninhabitable (if not outright obliterated) and as such isn't the home of the Empress.  We instead meet her at Shing Jea at a comparatively modest location named "Royal Court".  Is Shing Jea now the formal permanent residence of the Emperor/Empress and their court or is this just a....summer home?

What I gleamed from ingame dialogue is that it still exists, so it wasn't entirely obliterated - instead is has become heavily infected with Risen. For some reason the dialogue really highlighted the palace as especially dangerous and corrupted, even compared to the rest of Drowned Kaineng.

The Royal Court being in Shing Jea also caught me off guard, especially since it just became integrated with the Monastery, missing all the splendour and complicated layout of a true palace. The Imperial Family fleeing to Shing Jea makes a lot of sense, and I can also see them settle there long-term afterwards, but I would have expected them to eventually build a proper palace in that case. The Monastery is still an educational institution, even in GW2, and not particularly fortified at that, so to have the Imperial Court and the Jade Vaults tucked into one of its corners is quite unbelievable.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, SunRoamer.5103 said:

The Royal Court being in Shing Jea also caught me off guard, especially since it just became integrated with the Monastery, missing all the splendour and complicated layout of a true palace. The Imperial Family fleeing to Shing Jea makes a lot of sense, and I can also see them settle there long-term afterwards, but I would have expected them to eventually build a proper palace in that case. The Monastery is still an educational institution, even in GW2, and not particularly fortified at that, so to have the Imperial Court and the Jade Vaults tucked into one of its corners is quite unbelievable.

 

Well, we know the Emperor at the time, and his consorts/wives were all killed in the palace. I'm waiting for an update to the historical guide to Tyria for Cantha, but I see stuff on the map in drowned Kaineng which off the top of my head matches the layout of Raisu palace.

 

They do mention it a lot as being an intact structure/compound, but currently with risen pouring out from it and filled with angry and corrupted spirits.

[Laken.9018]

Reading between the lines on this I'm pretty sure if we do get to go to Old Kaineng were going to find the Old Emperor knocking about in there still.
A lot of the dialog in the games hints that something oddly powerful is lurking in Raisu and is contributing to the fact the Risen aren't going down.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Laken.9018

[dusanyu.4057]

drowned Kaineng is about where Kaineng Center was so it makes sence you see a bit of the old Raisu Palace

[SoulGuardian.6203]

On 2/6/2022 at 2:46 PM, Narcemus.1348 said:

I had loads of love for this expansion from the Shing Jea stream, the Jade Sea stream, and mostly the Echovald stream, but this one killed so much of my excitement for the game. I wanted to revisit Cantha for nostalgia for my absolute favorite game, and they start the stream with (paraphrasing) the old Kaineng you knew and love was destroyed by Zhaitan and they have built a new city. I am so tired of this trope they have used and reused over and over again. Old Guild Wars location players are excited to revisit = sunk beneath water/branded/ruined with inquest tech/tarred in Elona. Because of this I am fully in the camp of let's just visit new places from here on out. I am tired of seeing ruins of places I loved. I've done enough of that.

 

Before people fight me on this, I'm just stating an opinion. Other people can have other opinions and that is valid. I am not claiming that the city being destroyed by tsunami is nonsensical or impractical. And I am not claiming that there are no locations that exist that don't meet those criteria. I'm just tired of them deciding that new and flashy is always better than the nostalgia that some of their player base is wishing for.

I totally agree.

Let them fight you. You're just saying the truth.

 

1. Ascalon. 

Branded. Then...

, retaken by charr who left it in ruins. 

They wanted it back and look how much they care for it.

2. Lion's Arch. 

Drawned and then... Destroyed and remodeled.

3. Kamadan. Partially drowned.

Taken by the awakened or whatever wako jokso forces are.

Also Sunspear sanctuary. Branded.

4. Kaineng city. Drowned.

5. Sifhala and near by outpodys.

Berried under the snow and landslides.

6. Droknars forge.

Drowned.

Etc etc etc.

 

I think the only one that hasn't become anything too bad, was Gad's encampment, which now shares fort trinity and the pet menagerie. 

 

Everything else has become desyroyed, drowned, or affected in some way by dragons and their minions.

 

I really wish that at least the majority of main outposts were restored to their former glory.

[Kalavier.1097]

On 3/16/2022 at 3:31 PM, Laken.9018 said:

Reading between the lines on this I'm pretty sure if we do get to go to Old Kaineng were going to find the Old Emperor knocking about in there still.
A lot of the dialog in the games hints that something oddly powerful is lurking in Raisu and is contributing to the fact the Risen aren't going down.

There is record that implies they recovered the royal family's bodies, as well as a lot of servants and even some prisoners from the palace after the wave hit and destroyed most of/all of the city.

On 6/30/2022 at 11:27 AM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I totally agree.

Let them fight you. You're just saying the truth.

 

1. Ascalon. 

Branded. Then...

, retaken by charr who left it in ruins. 

They wanted it back and look how much they care for it.

2. Lion's Arch. 

Drawned and then... Destroyed and remodeled.

3. Kamadan. Partially drowned.

Taken by the awakened or whatever wako jokso forces are.

Also Sunspear sanctuary. Branded.

4. Kaineng city. Drowned.

5. Sifhala and near by outpodys.

Berried under the snow and landslides.

6. Droknars forge.

Drowned.

Etc etc etc.

 

I think the only one that hasn't become anything too bad, was Gad's encampment, which now shares fort trinity and the pet menagerie. 

 

Everything else has become desyroyed, drowned, or affected in some way by dragons and their minions.

 

I really wish that at least the majority of main outposts were restored to their former glory.

 

I mean, it's been 250 years. Things CHANGE. We have old GW1 towns thriving and still going strong, like Ascalon Settlement.

Yes, I'd love to have had Thunderhead Keep as like a guild hall or a cleaner area, but we also know from dialogue that the old Keep has been cleaned up of the branded and thus is at peace/inhabited again.

Acting as if every single location from GW1 is destroyed isn't true. Some are, some aren't. And frankly, things have shifted and changed so some sites that were basically a few tents/crumbling walls that people were in (Temple of Ages, Yak's Bend, etc) are abandoned or empty. The Dwarves all went underground, leaving their old forts and towns to be abandoned.

Sunspear sanctuary wasn't branded, it was abandoned. That was the whole point of them using it. Only a small outside bit got hit by branding.

Kamadan wasn't drowned, it was taken over and built up.

Sifhala was abandoned because of Jormag.

 

It's not like these locations are just empty husks because "haha lul f GW1" but because they had to be left behind, or got wiped out. Droknar's Forge was emptied, and when the water level rose, nobody was there to do anything about it.