Nerfing supports + removal of target limits.

[Jarwan.8263]

I totally get from playing this mode since Heart of Thorns, constant wvw/pvp with very little pve on it, that unfortunately the devs do not play or are in anyway pvp players. yet in charge of making decisions on it. and there hasn't been any positive changes in a while.. 

i'll preface by also saying this is probably one of the best MMO's i've played that isn't korean/chinese out there for lore, some-what challenging pve content, the physx in detail and terrain textures that are breathtaking in some maps. no other games like it.

 

however... the competitive side of it needs work. and i think removal of target limits will go a long way to fixing it.  don't think any players can moan about this. if you do i bet you still get spoon fed baby formula

this change involves nothing done to skill mechanics, the stupid cc's or boon durations... just 1 flaw that was overlooked.

 

my wvw struggles consists of chasing a mostly empty borderland with the exception of the maps pop being strung along in 50 man blobs. with most players doing a 180 dash to escape any sort of engagement unless they outnumber 10 to 1. Fantastic.

and I can't even attempt to fight a blob because the game only allows me to attack 5 of them with limited abilities, yet nothing stops all the army of plebs from turning around and attacking me.. feels like society.

 

give us a week of no-downstate along with removal of target limits atleast once. and only keep them on for boon sharing/healing.

groups of players should not be shielded on virtue of being surrounded by teammates. If you all choose to stand under a meteor storm.. then you all deserve to eat meteor storms.. not just 5 enemies.. there should be a competitive; tactical; coordinated mechanical engagement in this game, rewarding skill.. not player count. 

[Dawdler.8521]

Yeah no problem I'll just try to pull and put some condi damage on that zerg guy with 78 stability stacks and 4 minute 38 seconds of resistance.

[Jarwan.8263]

34 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah no problem I'll just try to pull and put some condi damage on that zerg guy with 78 stability stacks and 4 minute 38 seconds of resistance.

what's your point? what you just said has nothing to do with this... your argument is on players stacking stability and resistance, while mine is about having the ability to attack more than just 5 players... all this does is remedy what you just said if you spent a couple more minutes thinking about it. If you pull them all than an entire blob has 1 stack of stability removed, instead of just 5 players... the number of stab and resistance you can stack is another post.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Jarwan.8263

[Dawdler.8521]

All skills have target limits. Even damage skills apply AoE boons. IE no target cap on boons.

Unless you are also implying no target cap on anything so that a 1200 range single target pull also would pull an infinite amount of people in front in a full 180 degree arc. If so then lol.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Yuffi.2430]

I am curious - you say you can't even attempt to attack a blob because you can only hit 5 of them (due to target capping). You must be trying to go against odds of over 5:1 because 5 or less would not be target capped. 

 

Are you really trying to solo an enemy zerg?

 

And you expect this should be achievable?? 

[Jarwan.8263]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

All skills have target limits. Even damage skills apply AoE boons. IE no target cap on boons.

Unless you are also implying no target cap on anything so that a 1200 range single target pull also would pull an infinite amount of people in front in a full 180 degree arc. If so then lol.

yes, pull the entire zerg ping ponging them across the map if you wish... thats how it should work.

 

44 minutes ago, Yuffi.2430 said:

I am curious - you say you can't even attempt to attack a blob because you can only hit 5 of them (due to target capping). You must be trying to go against odds of over 5:1 because 5 or less would not be target capped. 

 

Are you really trying to solo an enemy zerg?

 

And you expect this should be achievable?? 

yes, why not? the odds are already stacked against me, why should that be cemented by me not being able to retaliate? or do you want me to just spawn camp players trynna do their dailies cause they're on their own?

[RisenHowl.2419]

2 hours ago, Jarwan.8263 said:

yes, pull the entire zerg ping ponging them across the map if you wish... thats how it should work.

 

yes, why not? the odds are already stacked against me, why should that be cemented by me not being able to retaliate? or do you want me to just spawn camp players trynna do their dailies cause they're on their own?

Have you considered... teaming up with other players?

[Yuffi.2430]

Why would spawn camping be your only other option? There's plenty more to do: solo roaming, small group roaming, scouting, havoc squad, even join a zerg. I'm sure other players can fill in any gaps you are missing.

 

If you want something that hits more than 5 players build an arrow cart or a cata - I don't think these are target capped.

 

I'm just really bemused by the idea that you think you should be able to yolo a zerg, because that would be "fair". This is despite the fact that numbers matter in any combat. If you just want to make a point and go solo against a 20+ zerg then it really doesn't matter if you can only hit 5 max because you're going to die anyway.

 

There's plenty you CAN do as a single player, even against a zerg. Pick out the stragglers, those who are out of place, take them down, onto the next... Better still join with another couple of players and learn how to carve a blob into smaller sections you can defeat. ALL this can be done without any changes to target capping.

[Jarwan.8263]

35 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

Have you considered... teaming up with other players?

thats the problem.. the game encourages you to be around groups cause your safe with the target limits.. that should apply to pve. not competitive pvp modes where you can raise players from downstate? then limit the number of players that can be attacked. I'm in Hunt + cR guild, tons of good players.. the problem isn't finding players to team up with.. its the dominating factor of these big blobs... you just can't do anything to them unless you have a similar sized squad... and thats most of the maps queues.. in 1 area instead of spread out around the map.. 

whats worse is this applies to necros minions.. you can spawn as many minions as you want and for some reason the damage priority focuses them instead of a player... what can't you understand 

 

although Risen, if they maxed the squad to 10 players like they do for raids, thats a good solution too.. anything to avoid those 50 man trains.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Jarwan.8263

[Jarwan.8263]

17 minutes ago, Yuffi.2430 said:

Why would spawn camping be your only other option? There's plenty more to do: solo roaming, small group roaming, scouting, havoc squad, even join a zerg. I'm sure other players can fill in any gaps you are missing.

 

If you want something that hits more than 5 players build an arrow cart or a cata - I don't think these are target capped.

 

I'm just really bemused by the idea that you think you should be able to yolo a zerg, because that would be "fair". This is despite the fact that numbers matter in any combat. If you just want to make a point and go solo against a 20+ zerg then it really doesn't matter if you can only hit 5 max because you're going to die anyway.

 

There's plenty you CAN do as a single player, even against a zerg. Pick out the stragglers, those who are out of place, take them down, onto the next... Better still join with another couple of players and learn how to carve a blob into smaller sections you can defeat. ALL this can be done without any changes to target capping.

dude no... just no.... while all that happens, the 5 target limit could be the difference between win/loss regardless of your skill level.. just no.. better players should always beat lesser skilled.. and target limits should not be the deciding factor.. get out man.. the point isn't about me solo'ing a zerg.. its about the fact you are punished for even attempting it, but only letting you attack 5... yet you HONESTLY think its fair they should be rewarded with all being able to attack me? unless what? i join a blob too?

 

2 good players should easily dispatch 10 players if they ain't quick enough, don't know what their break skills are, can't turn cameras effectively... in a game with condi and a bunch of support players... you don't need any more hand holding... take the risk, its a competitive game mode for god sake. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Jarwan.8263

[Yuffi.2430]

Yes, more skilled players should be able to beat lower skilled. I know some players are fine 1v3 or so, but your OP gave the specific example of you attacking a blob, solo. Just why should a single good player be able to defeat 20 lower ability players? Most people blob because it's easy, and they may or may not be skilled. I've seen a group of 10 turn wipe a blob twice their size or more, but to suggest you should be able to do this solo is crazy.

 

I understand the frustration of blobbing, but the way to cure this is to reduce boon share and cleanse sharing, not by upping the target cap.

[Jarwan.8263]

yeah, the supports in the game are ridiculous...  but it still leaves the fact that players will all just stack in 1 spot...

the game mode should encourage tactical play rather than just running into everything... wheres the strategic knowledge of placing rangers and deadeyes on high grounds and firebrands on the frontlines with melee bursts classes... none of that matters because you all just need to be stacked in 1 spot to mitigate damage.. thats just not fun.. thats every other game mode...

 

for solo players who are actually good at their mechanics.. it won't stop a blob chasing you... but least it'll allow you as a player caught to be given a chance to get away... let them all be blinded, rooted.. whatever... if they have 30 players around them running supports, surely they'll clean it... but to have only 5 be affected and the rest completely safe from any damage... is a little unfair. 

i really don't understand how this is a major issue.. they could just give it to us for a week as a tester.. give us a skill gap to leap towards... shouldn't dumb everything down in a game mode with potential.

 

 

[God.2708]

The game mode does encourage tactical play.

Whether you like it or not, one person charging into 50 people isn't tactical, good, or skilled regardless of how elite you think your skill pressing and reaction time is.

I group up with a couple of friends and tactically delete 4+ people all the time. When I'm on the defense and the enemy isn't capable of running back from spawn this is quite frequently all I need to be able to defend a t3 structure with a few ally greens around even when 3x or 4x outnumbered. Organizing with others is also a skill. If you can't do that, you might not be as good at the game as you think you are.

[Infusion.7149]

Is your character named Don Quixote? Why are you trying to solo 50 man blobs?

Unless you are 20+ comped vs 50 uncomped expect to be dead.

[Zyreva.1078]

I don't think @Jarwan.8263 actually expects to successfully 1vs50. With or without target caps. But fact is, the rather low target cap for offensive abilities disproportionally favours larger numbers (just like - and especially in combination with - downstate) and mechanics that favour a grp that is already at an advantage in a game mode where numbers are rarely even doesn't scream like a good idea to me. That being said, there might still be valid reasons to keep those caps, i'm mainly thinking about performance here. But "1vs50 shouldn't be a thing" is not a good argument, because if one player can somehow overcome the innate disadvantage of being outnumbered that heavily, he absolutely deserves to get rewarded and those 50 people better step up their gameplay instead of expecting to get hard carried by unfair mechanics.

Edited February 20, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Jarwan.8263]

45 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

The game mode does encourage tactical play.

Whether you like it or not, one person charging into 50 people isn't tactical, good, or skilled regardless of how elite you think your skill pressing and reaction time is.

I group up with a couple of friends and tactically delete 4+ people all the time. When I'm on the defense and the enemy isn't capable of running back from spawn this is quite frequently all I need to be able to defend a t3 structure with a few ally greens around even when 3x or 4x outnumbered. Organizing with others is also a skill. If you can't do that, you might not be as good at the game as you think you are.

 

19 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Is your character named Don Quixote? Why are you trying to solo 50 man blobs?

Unless you are 20+ comped vs 50 uncomped expect to be dead.

again.. you 2 are focusing too much on the zerg part and letting it go over your head.... what about less than 5 players going against 5+ players. those with more players has any member above that completely negate any damage whatsoever.. what if it isn't a blob but just couple extras added on top? 

 

the zerg instance is an exaggerate hypothetical situation... the game says no to you doing anything against them unless you have a blob size squad to counter.. how do you not get this.. you pretending so you can hug a com 24/7 of your playtime in wvw?

 

i literally just shared to you some aoes prioritizing npc minions instead of players on certain instances.. 

 

anything that isn't 5v5 is scuffed.. either raise the target limit.. or remove it altogether.. 5 is not enough.

 

[Jarwan.8263]

2 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I don't think @Jarwan.8263 actually expects to successfully 1vs50. With or without target caps. But fact is, the rather low target cap for offensive abilities disproportionally favours larger numbers (just like - and especially in combination with - downstate) and mechanics that favour a grp that is already at an advantage in a game mode where numbers are rarely even doesn't scream like a good idea to me. That being said, there might still be valid reasons to keep those caps, i'm mainly thinking about performance here. But "1vs50 shouldn't be a thing" is not a good argument, because if one player can somehow overcome the innate disadvantage of being outnumbered that heavily, he absolutely deserves to get rewarded and those 50 people better step up their gameplay instead of expecting to get hard carried by unfair mechanics.

finally.. someone gets it.. jesus christ.. took a while

[God.2708]

6 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:

 

again.. you 2 are focusing too much on the zerg part and letting it go over your head.... what about less than 5 players going against 5+ players. those with more players has any member above that completely negate any damage whatsoever.. what if it isn't a blob but just couple extras added on top? 

 

the zerg instance is an exaggerate hypothetical situation... the game says no to you doing anything against them unless you have a blob size squad to counter.. how do you not get this.. you pretending so you can hug a com 24/7 of your playtime in wvw?

 

i literally just shared to you some aoes prioritizing npc minions instead of players on certain instances.. 

 

anything that isn't 5v5 is scuffed.. either raise the target limit.. or remove it altogether.. 5 is not enough.

 

I get it just fine. You just can't see past the end of your own argument.

Poof game has no target caps. What happens? Everyone keeps blobbing and you can merrily outnumber fight them feeling confident you can now hurt them as much as they hurt you?

No. They spread out and slaughter you anyway because 50 auto attacks is 50 auto attacks and nobody in the game survives that. Or they just don't show up because who wants to try to attack a structure some dude is stealthing in and out of with a buddy and one shotting your entire squad?

The game mode demands it favor the attackers by design because if it didn't favor the attackers no one would attack. And if no one is attacking. Now what?

Edited February 20, 2022 by God.2708

[Infusion.7149]

12 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:

 

again.. you 2 are focusing too much on the zerg part and letting it go over your head.... what about less than 5 players going against 5+ players. those with more players has any member above that completely negate any damage whatsoever.. what if it isn't a blob but just couple extras added on top? 

 

the zerg instance is an exaggerate hypothetical situation... the game says no to you doing anything against them unless you have a blob size squad to counter.. how do you not get this.. you pretending so you can hug a com 24/7 of your playtime in wvw?

 

i literally just shared to you some aoes prioritizing npc minions instead of players on certain instances.. 

 

anything that isn't 5v5 is scuffed.. either raise the target limit.. or remove it altogether.. 5 is not enough.

 

This isn't the case with DH traps that hit 10x or anything that multi-hits say shredder gyro , well of suffering, elemental blast, lava font,  or meteor shower. The listed targets could be 5 but you are actually capped at far higher if people move from the AoE. If you have a coordinated bomb it can be 5 players or 50 players and someone will go down. That's why I posit this to you: let's say you down someone but don't have enough damage to finish or a skill to stomp them. What exactly do you achieve?

Edited February 20, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Zyreva.1078]

19 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

This isn't the case with DH traps that hit 10x or anything that multi-hits say shredder gyro , well of suffering, elemental blast, or meteor shower. The listed targets could be 5 but you are actually capped at far higher if people move from the AoE.

Just because those skills can hit more than 5 different players doesn't mean target caps don't apply. It just means the dmg gets split across more players, making it easier to tank/outheal.

Also, target caps aren't only effective for huge blobs, they are relevant for any fight with uneven numbers where one side has above 5 targets (which can include minions), so idk why everyone keeps talking about 1-5vs50.

Edited February 20, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Jarwan.8263]

19 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

No. They spread out and slaughter you anyway because 50 auto attacks is 50 auto attacks and nobody in the game survives that. Or they just don't show up because who wants to try to attack a structure some dude is stealthing in and out of with a buddy and one shotting your entire squad?

i want to see that happening... literally what are you afraid of when theres gonna be 30 players around you including supports.. to get shot by the many players.. are you that bad at the game? its up to the players to know how to play their own class..

 

28 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 i'm mainly thinking about performance here. 

cpu performance? i feel like fights recycling often should make it more active and reduce lag.. less skills being used cause players are downed.

 

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

 That's why I posit this to you: let's say you down someone but don't have enough damage to finish or a skill to stomp them. What exactly do you achieve?

we literally have to go through this with every type of fights.. 1v6, 10 v 20, 30v50.. the argument is the same.. someone is free from all kinds of damage if they all stack together in 1... its a nasty safety net... 

if they removed it.. downstates wouldn't be an issue if everyone can bomb that area and if a blob chooses to walk into it without stability, aegis, healing, protection.. its their fault... learn to play more effectively, don't punish the players who already do.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Jarwan.8263

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:

i want to see that happening... literally what are you afraid of when theres gonna be 30 players around you including supports.. to get shot by the many players.. are you that bad at the game? its up to the players to know how to play their own class..

 

cpu performance? i feel like fights recycling often should make it more active and reduce lag.. less skills being used cause players are downed.

 

we literally have to go through this with every type of fights.. 1v5, 10 v 20, 30v50.. the argument is the same.. someone is free from all kinds of damage if they all stack together in 1... its a nasty safety net... 

if they removed it.. downstates wouldn't be an issue if everyone can bomb that area and if a blob chooses to walk into it without stability, aegis, healing, protection.. its their fault... learn to play more effectively, don't punish the players who already do.

So your suggestion is based on feelings and not fact? You are aware that everything is hosted on AWS right?

Nobody is free from damage if they stack. If you have enough damage concentrated even if it's full minstrel + protection they will die.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Jarwan.8263]

4 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So your suggestion is based on feelings and not fact? You are aware that everything is hosted on AWS right?

 

okay? how does that relate to target limits though

 

[Zyreva.1078]

14 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Nobody is free from damage if they stack. If you have enough damage concentrated even if it's full minstrel + protection they will die.

Everyone who is above target cap within an aoe will take no dmg. If you coordinate aoe burst into a larger stacked grp 2 things can happen: The aoe all hits the same 5 targets, those go down and get rezzed instantly by everyone else who is under zero pressure before downstate invuln even runs out or the dmg gets spread among players and easily outhealed. Target caps provide significant free dmg mitigation for larger grps, idk how anyone can deny that.

Edited February 20, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Everyone who is above target cap within an aoe will take no dmg. If you coordinate aoe burst into a larger stacked grp 2 things can happen: The aoe all hits the same 5 targets, those go down and get rezzed instantly by everyone else who is under zero pressure before downstate invuln even runs out or the dmg gets spread among players and easily outhealed. Target caps provide significant free dmg mitigation for larger grps, idk how anyone can deny that.

You are aware symbols and traps are 180 radius right along with lava font? People have to be stacking within <180 radius for that to be applicable. This means no moving targets more or less and why people like to stack traps on choke points.

If stacking that tight was the be all and end all people would not run CoR on hammer herald or any skill that applies only one hit. That doesn't even account for 24 hits of meteor.

An increase in target cap would mean in any engagement the higher numbers would win due to clouding as they have more damage sources regardless of target caps.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Infusion.7149