You did not listen to ANY of the Catalyst Hammer feedback

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Loopgru.1026 said:

It feels like you're being deliberately obtuse here, so I'm about done with this exchange.

This is like hearing from your spouse that "we need to talk," responding with a discussion of what to have for dinner, then saying "what? we talked!"

Yes, there have been tweets from ANet. There have been (I'm sure) quotes given to the media. There have been unrelated patch notes and even a brief non-address of the Dragon's End meta issues. But there has been no communication regarding the state of this elite spec or any other. So yes, on this topic, they have been silent.

Anyway. Cheers.

There isn't anything obtuse with recognizing that your accusation of Anet 'going dark' makes no sense. You seem to be of the opinion there is actually something FOR Anet to communicate at this point regarding the state of especs ... not sure why you would assume such a thing. Again, if they are basing their own understanding off game data (which we KNOW they do) ... then it's very unlikely they even have a good idea of understanding the state of especs at this point. 

Again, there is a BIG difference with communicating to inform players of what is happening (which we DO get) and communicating just to satisfy people who are complaining (which even you admit shouldn't be the goal of communication in the first place). 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There isn't anything obtuse with recognizing that your accusation of Anet 'going dark' makes no sense. You seem to be of the opinion there is actually something FOR Anet to communicate at this point regarding the state of especs ... not sure why you would assume such a thing. 

Again, there is a BIG difference with communicating to inform players of what is happening (which we DO get) and communicating just to satisfy people who are complaining (which even you admit shouldn't be the goal of communication in the first place). 

Maybe because it's simply something expected after 4 betas to have some sort of road plan about classes and their balance? It could also immediately become a discussion about said plans making it easier to pin-point overlooked problems and make some adjustments right away instead of dropping bomb for no reason?
Don't forget that in long run it's the playerbase paying A-nets bills, so some communication is needed.
Remember that not providing any kind of "information" is also an "information" in itself about the state of their development.

[Obtena.7952]

32 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Maybe because it's simply something expected after 4 betas to have some sort of road plan about classes and their balance? 

We have knowledge of Anet going to make a balance run after EoD release. Maybe you just don't know about it. Again, this is not about Anet not communicating plans with people. They HAVE. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Serephen.3420]

11 hours ago, Flori.2194 said:

But time has already proven that most of the feedback after the last beta is still justified: Augments are terrible, Hammer 3 cripples it, the trailines are still uninspired and rather belong to tempest or weaver, there is no need for F5, the mechanic could be on F1-F4 etc. etc.

Just to remind you: They didn't change anything after the last beta phase although they promised significant changes. We were the beta testers because they lack the manpower to test it themselves and now we don't even get to know WHY they didn't listen or chose to ignore the feedback.

 

And to your "immediately" statement: They should pump out a lot more balance patches, like every few weeks... It's a shame that they decided to balance once a year and don't care for the things they created... 

Please take my whole post in context and not just single out a sentence ir two. I agree with you about the hammer 3 and augments. I'm just saying what can be realistically expected. 

[Tseison.4659]

6 hours ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Just put Obtena on ignore, like everyone does.

Sadly this forum doesn’t have a block feature so I never have to see their posts period and it doesn’t seem like the forum moderators are doing anything about them either so…

[Archer.4362]

On 8/3/2022 at 14:31, Obtena.7952 said:

Ahí es donde tu pensamiento falla. Estas especificaciones no se tratan de dar a las clases lo que los jugadores creen que necesitan. Se trata de tener los conceptos que quiere Anet. Mira, lo que está sucediendo aquí es que la gente dio MUCHOS comentarios que no tenían relevancia para el concepto que Anet quiere. Entonces, no están ignorando a las personas, simplemente no están haciendo los cambios que la gente quiere porque la retroalimentación no era relevante para el concepto. La versión beta no fue un ejercicio de cooperación conjunta en el desarrollo de clases. 

 

I am sorry for my bad english.

If 95% of people's comments tell you that the specifications are not right, I think it means something, that someone may not say the changes well. but the defense that you are making constant of anet does not hold. Why do you make a post anet asking us how are the specializations? It will be to take it into account, if 95% are negative votes and comments on how to improve it and you ignore it, it means that you do not care what your players think.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Archer.4362 said:

 

I am sorry for my bad english.

If 95% of people's comments tell you that the specifications are not right, I think it means something, that someone may not say the changes well. but the defense that you are making constant of anet does not hold. Why do you make a post anet asking us how are the specializations? It will be to take it into account, if 95% are negative votes and comments on how to improve it and you ignore it, it means that you do not care what your players think.

No, that's wrong. The number of negative posts is not statistically relevant to the number of people that dislike something.  People that are unhappy are more likely to post they dislike something than happy people posting they do like something. 

Again, the correct and more accurate measure of players satisfaction with something isn't forum posts, it's what they play.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Archer.4362]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No eso está mal. La cantidad de publicaciones negativas no es estadísticamente relevante para la cantidad de personas a las que no les gusta algo. 

 

I'm talking about comments on how to improve it, if you go to the specific post, the vast majority of people did not say that they were not happy, but rather gave opinions on how to improve it. your anet defense doesn't hold up.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Archer.4362 said:

 

I'm talking about comments on how to improve it, if you go to the specific post, the vast majority of people did not say that they were not happy, but rather gave opinions on how to improve it. your anet defense doesn't hold up.

No, my Anet defense is just fine because we know Anet is measuring what people play ingame as way to see what needs to be changed on classes. They tell us in the patch notes this is what they do. If catalyst and hammer is terrible, they will change it if people aren't playing it. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Flori.2194]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, my Anet defense is just fine because we know Anet is measuring what people play ingame as way to see what needs to be changed on classes. They tell us in the patch notes this is what they do. If catalyst and hammer is terrible, they will change it if people aren't playing it. 

Yeah, sadly they measure on the amount played, heaven forbid they would use actual konwledge of the classes from players from the speedclear or competitive scene or let's pretend they invite players with a lot of game time on one class to provide feedback in let's say the forum, especially for new specs with dedicated feedback threads and... wait...

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, Flori.2194 said:

Yeah, sadly they measure on the amount played, heaven forbid they would use actual konwledge of the classes from players from the speedclear or competitive scene or let's pretend they invite players with a lot of game time on one class to provide feedback in let's say the forum, especially for new specs with dedicated feedback threads and... wait...

That comment doesn't make sense. The data they use from the game is based on ALL players ... which includes anyone you want to categorize as speedclears or competitive scene people. Again, if Catalyst (or anything else) is under represented in gameplay an amount Anet doesn't like ... they will fix it. We know this because patch notes indicate that's a reason they make changes. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Flori.2194]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That comment doesn't make sense. The data they use from the game is based on ALL players ... which includes anyone you want to categorize as speedclears or competitive scene people. Again, if Catalyst (or anything else) is under represented in gameplay an amount Anet doesn't like ... they will fix it. We know this because patch notes indicate that's a reason they make changes. 

Your thinking is pretty naive... There are literally statistics showing that some classes are heavily overused in Raids and Fractals and some see no use at all. Same for WvW or sPvP. Watch some WvW footage form inhouses, play some inhouses, do some GvGs and watch some sPvP tournaments. You will see a very harsh and unforgiving meta, that doesn't allow much room for improvisation or personal preference. I main Ele and was playing Tempest for a lot of GvGs, but I finally switched to Hfb for my WvW guild because it's just better and less niche. I climbed to Plat with my Weaver but in the end I think I should have picked something else.  And if you look closer you'll notice a pattern, for example that most of the times Warrior is used just as a BS, banner or bubble slave, depending on game mode.

And I know there is your casual answer like "you can play anthing in roaming or open world" and that's true, but this game has a lot of endgame content where you have to perform well, but this endgame content finally boils down to "pick this or that class or otherwise you will have a disadvantage". That's pretty harsh.

The data is already here, it's also something the community knows. This whole topic was never about HOW TO GET data, it's about WHAT TO DO WITH IT. And Anet chose, for months and years now, to do nothing with their accumulated data. This game is not well balanced and I refuse to believe they have the manpower or knowledge to do it properly. And yes, I truely believe they should pump out a lot more balance patches with much more courage and try-and-error. They can always revert something like "Tempest gets a trait where he gives 2 stacks of stability with each aura". Too good? Revert it back 2 or 3 weeks later or lower it to 1 stack. That's how balancing should be approached, much bolder and with no shame to admit that some attempts were too ambitious. But doing nothing for months or even years is a horrible statement towards your customers, towards the people that care and towards your own children, the classes you, as developer, made. 

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

8 hours ago, Avatara.1042 said:

You hover over their name and a pop-up thing appears.  Click ignore user.

Man I was looking for something like that but I couldn't find it, thanks!

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Flori.2194 said:

Your thinking is pretty naive... There are literally statistics showing that some classes are heavily overused in Raids and Fractals and some see no use at all.

There isn't anything naive about my thinking at all.

• If Anet wants to change something ... they do it.
• They tell us why in the patch notes when do so.
• They have told us that one of the reasons they change things is because of the amount it's played.

Therefore, it's not naïve to think that if Catalyst, or hammer or anything else is not played the amount they want, they will change it too. 

This isn't something I'm inventing ... but it's apparently something convenient for you to ignore to argue with me to push the idea that Anet needs to do what players want immediately instead of using their data to guide them. If anyone is naïve here, it's not me. I'm not the one that thinks Anet is just going to do whatever the collective forum complainers want them to do. 

And also, the data ISN'T already there for them to change EoD especs; whatever data you think exists for raids isn't relevant to that ... it's only been 1 week since the release of the expansion. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

I just think putting your hope into an effect that anet is known to be the first thing they nerf (hit box base dps) orbs is dooming your self and bring your views ready to apologized for when anet nerfs it bring down the dps of catalysts hammer by a lot.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

16 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There isn't anything naive about my thinking at all.

• If Anet wants to change something ... they do it.
• They tell us why in the patch notes when do so.
• They have told us that one of the reasons they change things is because of the amount it's played.

Therefore, it's not naïve to think that if Catalyst, or hammer or anything else is not played the amount they want, they will change it too. 

This isn't something I'm inventing ... but it's apparently something convenient for you to ignore to argue with me to push the idea that Anet needs to do what players want immediately instead of using their data to guide them. If anyone is naïve here, it's not me. I'm not the one that thinks Anet is just going to do whatever the collective forum complainers want them to do. 

And also, the data ISN'T already there for them to change EoD especs; whatever data you think exists for raids isn't relevant to that ... it's only been 1 week since the release of the expansion. 

How the heck will they know what to change if nobody is giving feedback? you are basically shutting everyone down saying that feedback isn't used, the communities voice doesn't matter, and to just have faith in Anet like they are some kinda god that always knows best. 

And yeah, you are right, when something isn't performing the way they want Anet certainly changes it. 6 months later. That's the actual bad part. The changes are so sparingly and far apart that whatever isn't working you are stuck with for what feels like eternity. If they made balance changes like once a month, good or bad, I feel like people would be less mad or passionate about the balance updates. But when it's "we thought necro was over performing, so on skill (insert name here) we've reduced the poison application duration from 15 seconds to 14 seconds" and you're just left sitting there like... what.... Like in other games, mechanics are actually looked at and changed around if they aren't working, but in GW2 they kinda avoid mechanic changes like the plague, which i'm sure is because it costs a bit to make mechanical changes and possible difficult messing with the code, it's not as easy as a number tweak, but it's taking the easy way out and causes a lot of things to be left in the dust and unusable like conjured weapons, staff, traitlines, and everything else for every other class that suffer from this. 

Quit having a meta-argument about the argument itself and start discussing the ideas and making constructive criticism on the ideas being presented about balance changes, not whethor or not Anet will make the change or not based on some anecdotal behavioral observations of the company as a whole. This is a discussion about catalyst hammer, not Anets behavior of balancing and making changes. Read the title, buddy. 

[Obtena.7952]

34 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

How the heck will they know what to change if nobody is giving feedback?

Hold on ... that has nothing to do what I'm saying. You aren't paying attention to what I wrote. I didn't suggest people don't give feedback and I'm 100% certain Anet can make changes without players telling them what. 

Again, players gave feedback. Anet did what they will with it. There was a process, Anet used it. People are just mad because they didn't get what they wanted. If people are unhappy Anet didn't do more with that feedback, they need to think about why. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ScottBroChill.3254]

19 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... that has nothing to do what I'm saying. You aren't paying attention to what I wrote. I didn't suggest people don't give feedback and I'm 100% certain Anet can make changes without players telling them what. 

Again, players gave feedback. Anet did what they will with it. There was a process, Anet used it. People are just mad because they didn't get what they wanted. If people are unhappy Anet didn't do more with that feedback, they need to think about why. 

And so they are giving more feedback because they didn't like the changes. People are allowed to keep giving feedback based on what was implemented (or lack thereof) without people like you completely shooting it down, and not even shooting down the ideas in general, but shooting down the mere matter of discussion. I did read what you said and my opinion is that it isn't even about the subject matter of the thread. That's my opinion of everything you say. Literally you could take your post from one thread and plug them in to any others because they are never about anything. 

Hey Obtena, what are your thoughts on hammer? share those thoughts, discuss those ideas, and stop dragging every topic off course about what anet wants and believes because last time I checked you weren't an Anet employee. And if you are, then that's scummy business behavior to try and shut down criticism under an anonymous name. You are a gaslighter and a manipulator (in a lighter sense of the words) who doesn't get away with it because everything you say is written down here. 

[Loke.1429]

On 3/9/2022 at 3:17 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's wrong. The number of negative posts is not statistically relevant to the number of people that dislike something.  People that are unhappy are more likely to post they dislike something than happy people posting they do like something. 

Again, the correct and more accurate measure of players satisfaction with something isn't forum posts, it's what they play.

I wanted to say I found this comment abusive to a person making a fair point. So let me point out that your use of the term "statistically relevant" here shows that you do not understand statistics, you do not understand the specific term and you do not understand causality. You are in fact quite likely wrong, based on the feedback i have seen across channels. Any given channel will be a good indicator unless you believe fundamentally very different people populate different channels of communication. I call bs on that one.


On topic, the "lack of effort" put into catalyst, or low quality spec, may be a result of relatively few people playing ele these days due to continued nerfs (and thus less dev time - I hope not), dev bias (they need to stop this), lack of dev time in general (funding/business decision), lack of understanding that fun combat gameplay is a core component of this game (if not the core), or just a complete disconnect with the player base leading to a misunderstanding of what people consider fun/interesting gameplay.

From my point of view, it is fine to launch an expac without considering the feedback as they have done, but the sorry state of the ele profession and now also catalyst spec makes it brutal to then ask players to wait months(!) for any changes, if that is what they really will do. Some people will play other classes, other people leave and come back, and some people will leave and not come back. Its that last portion of players that really hurts the company so a statement about their plans is needed as soon as possible in my opinion.

Maybe they could even appease some of us by giving a set date for wvw alliances instead.

As is, Ive paid for an expac and gotten very high quality story content (best to date), great zones with a unique feel, etc. However, the core component of fun combat gameplay and balance has not been improved sufficiently for ele players, and this is for a profession that is so long overdue for an increase in player power, so to get this weak super-clunky excel-sheet-designed bs is extremely aggravating.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Loke.1429

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, Loke.1429 said:

From my point of view, it is fine to launch an expac without considering the feedback as they have done, but the sorry state of the ele profession and now also catalyst spec makes it brutal to then ask players to wait months(!) for any changes, if that is what they really will do. Some people will play other classes, other people leave and come back, and some people will leave and not come back. Its that last portion of players that really hurts the company so a statement about their plans is needed as soon as possible in my opinion.

Yup, and I'm sure Anet is more aware than anyone the impact these different groups of players have on their business. Yet, they still decide to communicate and make game changes as they see fit so it seems to me that whatever the situation that exists, they have decided their frequency/quality of communications will be THIS.

Frankly, I don't think any attempts to exaggerate the situation to argue we need more or better communication or class changes makes sense. I'm just going to repeat it ... if changes need to be made based on the game data, Anet will do so because they have done so many times in the past and Catalyst ISN'T exceptional in that regard. The unfortunate thing is that these opportunities WILL arise if what everyone says is true about Catalyst's performance, yet the feedback is poor. It always has been. It would make LOTS of sense for people to start policing  others and their feedback a little better because just complaining is the least likely way for people to get what they want. 

And for the record ... I'm aware enough to know that NO PLAYER could POSSIBLY determine the correlation between the number of dissatisfied players and negative forum posts. So people justifying what they think  Anet needs to do because of the number of negative forum posts is nonsensical. 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It would make LOTS of sense for people to start policing  others and their feedback a little better because just complaining is the least likely way for people to get what they want. 

Wrong, complaining is one of the most valuable feedbacks that someone can provide you, because it shows that you've screwed pretty badly, meaning you have to think carefully "why they complain?".
The real problem is when people stop complaining, you can be assured that the moment it'll happen game is as good as dead.

[Loke.1429]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup, and I'm sure Anet is more aware than anyone the impact these different groups of players have on their business. Yet, they still decide to communicate and make game changes as they see fit so it seems to me that whatever the situation that exists, they have decided their frequency/quality of communications will be THIS.

Frankly, I don't think any attempts to exaggerate the situation to argue we need more or better communication or class changes makes sense. I'm just going to repeat it ... if changes need to be made based on the game data ...

Anet does need verbal feedback to see the real impact of how their decisions are affecting customers and how that is changing. To say that verbal feedback is not needed does not make any  sense. I believe this is your opinion, and i disagree with it quite strongly. As others have pointed out, verbal feedback is far more insightful and actionable, can be given quickly (as a leading measurement), whereas game data comes too late and does not send a clear message regarding what the problem is. Game data will simply say it is not popular, which can have so many reasons.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Loke.1429 said:

Anet does need verbal feedback to see the real impact of how their decisions are affecting customers and how that is changing. To say that verbal feedback is not needed does not make any  sense. I believe this is your opinion, and i disagree with it quite strongly. As others have pointed out, verbal feedback is far more insightful and actionable, can be given quickly (as a leading measurement), whereas game data comes too late and does not send a clear message regarding what the problem is. Game data will simply say it is not popular, which can have so many reasons.

My point is that complaints are not good feedback. Verbal feedback is important. I think very few people have a good understanding of the difference between complaints and feedback. You realize not everyone screaming for a team is helping that team out right? If people want to be listened to, they need to start being self-critical of what they say and how they are saying them, including the OP, who seems to only exist on the forums to provide bad feedback about Catalyst.  

The Catalyst bashing isn't actually helping anyone out because there are good things about Catalyst and design decisions that people aren't willing to acknowledge, probably because they believe if they acknowledge those things, Anet will conclude everything is 'OK' and not fix the things that are problems. This isn't the path to take if we are to be taken seriously on our feedback. 

Seems to me the OP has excluded the idea that some intentional design decisions may result in Anet "not listening" to the feedback that was given. That's just denial. No one should be starting from the idea that Anet didn't make concept and design decisions on the specs purposefully to falsely accuse Anet of "not listening". That's just absurd and it's bad feedback. 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Tseison.4659]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

My point is that complaints are not good feedback. Verbal feedback is important. I think very few people have a good understanding of the difference between complaints and feedback. You realize not everyone screaming for a team is helping that team out right? If people want to be listened to, they need to start being self-critical of what they say and how they are saying them, including the OP, who seems to only exist on the forums to provide bad feedback about Catalyst.  

The Catalyst bashing isn't actually helping anyone out because there are good things about Catalyst and design decisions that people aren't willing to acknowledge, probably because they believe if they acknowledge those things, Anet will conclude everything is 'OK' and not fix the things that are problems. This isn't the path to take if we are to be taken seriously on our feedback. 

Seems to me the OP has excluded the idea that some intentional design decisions may result in Anet "not listening" to the feedback that was given. That's just denial. No one should be starting from the idea that Anet didn't make concept and design decisions on the specs purposefully to falsely accuse Anet of "not listening". That's just absurd and it's bad feedback. 

 

Maybe you should take a better look at yourself and the negative reputation you've had on the forums because you're not exactly Anets poster child as you think you may be. So before you try calling people out, maybe you should work on getting rid of:  Spamming every profession thread claiming you know what’s best and can’t even back anything up and don’t even try to turn that around and say we as players are the ones “complaining” to anet through our feedback because lets be real, you haven’t read through EVERY profession feedback thread and saw the constructive feedback that was given, as well as in the bug threads. All YOU do is pick out the negative ones that are non-constructive and attacking anet and just place every player under one label because you just see us as all the same. You personally attack AND harass players on the forums AND off via in game and you get away with it because clearly anet mods are “too busy” or “they’re promoting such behavior” which doesn’t make for a healthy game nor a healthy space.

This is also coming from the same person who says:

Quote

“See, what is happening here is that people gave LOTS of feedback that had no relevance to the concept Anet wants. So, they aren't ignoring people, they just aren't making the changes people want because the feedback wasn't relevant to the concept.”

Again, if anet wasn’t ignoring people, then maybe they should acknowledge the constructive feedback and bugs in regards to catalyst and many other EoD specs because myself along with others were thinking there’d be atleast more than one or two changes not “fixes” when we got the release notes regarding the elite specs we had tirelessly tested. Or, they could have said “oh due to all of our resources going into getting EOD ready for launch, we couldn’t get all the changes for the elite specs ready for launch, but we’ll be revisiting them come Spring/Summer” PERIOD, that’s literally all players are asking.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[Obtena.7952]

54 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Again, if anet wasn’t ignoring people, then maybe they should acknowledge the constructive feedback and bugs in regards to catalyst and many other EoD specs because myself along with others were thinking there’d be atleast more than one or two changes not “fixes” when we got the release notes regarding the elite specs we had tirelessly tested. 

Well, that's not an accurate account of what happened because Anet DID acknowledge the constructive feedback for every EOD spec after Beta test and did make changes to the EoD specs based on that feedback. That's just a documented fact with their posts and videos during that time. So any accusation Anet isn't listening to people because they didn't acknowledge the feedback is just a lie. Lying is not a good way to engage an organization you are trying to influence for changes. 

Maybe you and others should have never created unreasonable expectations that there would be more changes based on what you wanted if there was a chance there wouldn't be changes based on what you wanted. That isn't a Anet 'doesn't listen' ... That's a people's expectations don't match reality. 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952