Why Guild Wars 2 Especially Needs Low Intensity Builds

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

On the contrary, it's how all individual elements of that system interconnect is where the real difficulty of truly comprehending it lies.

No, not really since they are rather straighforward.

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Most hardcore players may understand what the individual traits of their build do, some may even understand why those traits were picked (and are able to do small modifications maybe), but a majority would never be able to create such a build from scratch. And there are some that don;t really understand their build at all, and all they know is where to copy it from and how to use it. The amount of players able to create truly coherent builds is extremely small. Those whose builds are actually good are in even smaller numbers.

You just made up a random statement supporting what you want to support and then claimed it's a fact when you have nothing to base that claim on. And again-again, "understanading and utilizing build system" has nothing to do with consistenly crafting your own min-maxed builds. It's just the strawman you've created in order to pretend that you either keep spamming meta builds by yourself or you don't understand the system you're using. But that's simply not the case. Creating a coherent build is far from being hard to do.

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nope. Adding up to 10 is the level of understanding roughly individual traits. Learning how they work together, and how they interact with gear and game mechanics is a much more complicated issue.

Nope, reading and understanding indicidual traits is knowing indivitual numbers. Adding them together is... yeah, basically adding to 10. And no, I don't mean it's "adding 10 traits/choices", it's still a comparison. "how they interact with gear" is complicated? No, it's not. Literally read the descriptions. Want more dmg? I wonder what gear/stat completements it... Want more healing? Again, understanding how to boost it is just easy. Nothing hard about it as long as you're willing to read with understanding, doing it "one after another" in bite-sized pieces during earlier stages of the game just makes it even easier.

[solemn.9608]

20 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And the idea that completely normal players playing in a completely normal way that is just different than the one you play can be called "brain dead" is quite offensive to me.

 

 

Good for you

[Gehenna.3625]

4 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

So they are bad but you dont want to call water wet because you dont like negative words. got it.

That's not it at all. Why do you even try to twist my words?

They may be bad at combat but that doesn't make them bad players, that's just too general. Combat is just one aspect of the game, but that doesn't mean they're bad overall. There's more to gaming than combat and for me when a player succeeds at enjoying themselves, then they are successful. 

You just want to be negative about them, because you think they should try harder at not enjoying themselves.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

22 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

That's not it at all. Why do you even try to twist my words?

They may be bad at combat but that doesn't make them bad players, that's just too general. Combat is just one aspect of the game, but that doesn't mean they're bad overall. There's more to gaming than combat and for me when a player succeeds at enjoying themselves, then they are successful. 

You just want to be negative about them, because you think they should try harder at not enjoying themselves.

It looks like you're trying to go a little too "philosophical" on this one. Pretty clearly when someone talks about being a "good player" or a "bad player", it relates to their ability of utilizing game mechanics to have success at playing through -and completing- its content. There might be grey areas about it, but overally it's not as "subjective" as you want to claim it is. It has nothing to do with "player enjoyment" or "your definition of success", because "if he's happy then he's a good player!" -that's very clearly not what was being discussed here. It also doesn't somehow make the person themself inherently "bad". But being bad at something is still just being bad at something.

I mean... you've even said it yourself that "they might be bad at combat systems". You know what was being said there, you just want to run from the actual meaning of the words that are used in this comment chain.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

They may be bad at combat but that doesn't make them bad players, that's just too general. Combat is just one aspect of the game, but that doesn't mean they're bad overall.

It actually does, because most of the game requires combat. It's a very large portion of the game. Most of the game is balanced around it. Gear and skills are entirely balanced around it as well. A lot of events simply can't be completed without combat. You can't even complete the story without it.

Sorry, when a player only contributes only 1/10th of the damage output compared to a similar player with the same role and without offering any support, then I'm just going to say they are bad.

 

Of course, enjoyment and skill are two different things. Also, only pressing 1 or having a simple rotation doesn't mean one doesn't do damage. It's not always about how many buttons you press. With the mechanist build above I can assure you I can just eliminate mobs in OW faster than many just by pressing 4 off cooldown. (and autoattacking. Btw, you just need to press 1 once)

 

This is the whole point of this thread, after all.  We shouldn't have cases where players can literally do 10x less damage with the "wrong" choices or 2-3x less damage even with the right gear and when actively trying. At that point it ceases to be a choice and only exist to troll new players which causes frustration. This is why we should conceptualize what is a LI build and make it the default so players that don't care about build craft don't have to worry about it that much.

 

 

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

You just want to be negative about them, because you think they should try harder at not enjoying themselves.

Well, they can do whatever they want when playing alone. It's only when they join group content and are dead weight when it's a problem.

Edited June 2, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well, they can do whatever they want when playing alone. It's only when they join group content and are dead weight when it's a problem.

If that happens in OW, then it is a game design's fault. Because one of the core ideas behind OW was that noone, not even a player with no skill at all, was supposed to be a dead weight there. You were supposed to be always glad to see other players.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Gorem.8104]

7 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Quickness, stability, and aegis on engage are pretty ridiculous for open world.  Not only do you burn anything less than elite down in a few seconds, you don't even have to worry about dodging because aegis and stability have you covered!  It's like playing a guardian even when you aren't playing a guardian!

That's not really the point though - the point is that if you are someone actually doing this, and stacking buffs so high like this, which would presume you actually know what stats do and what builds do, already means you never needed the buffs in the first place to be better then a large amount of players. Its basically just making strong players who don't need it, stronger while still not helping the weaker players. 

How would a new player know exactly that they need to stack these buff timers when they have just started the game? You only find it at the games current most recent content, so by the time you get there, you've already finished. You don't get the Jade bot as you do your first mount, which is from the very first PoF quest. PoF gives you essentially no spoilers but you'd def be spoilt doing the quests leading up to the bot. 

So it doesn't help new players, it doesn't help struggling players, it doesn't help players who have chat turned off and don't use third party guides. It only helps the players who don't need it.  

Edited June 2, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Gehenna.3625]

2 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

It actually does, because most of the game requires combat. It's a very large portion of the game. Most of the game is balanced around it. Gear and skills are entirely balanced around it as well. A lot of events simply can't be completed without combat. You can't even complete the story without it.

That's not true at all and you know it. OW content and Story content does require combat but does not require mastery of the combat system. And so that's the majority of the content in this game. That content is not balanced around skill. Skill just means you get done faster. People who are more skilled tend to complain about how easy OW is to the point that it bores them to tears. 

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Well, they can do whatever they want when playing alone. It's only when they join group content and are dead weight when it's a problem.

Well it depends on what you define as group content. Group events and world bosses don't require players to be good generally. You'll get it done regardless. And most meta's can be done by pressing 1,1,1. Even when there's a timer on it, there usually are enough people that make it work anyway. Are they not doing as much damage as others? Sure. But it doesn't get in the way of the end goal of beating it. It does get in the way of another goal that some people have and that's to beat it as quickly as possible. But OW and Story content is balanced around the first goal and not the second.

Structured group content is different, I don't need to explain that to you. DE is kind of a hybrid in that sense. It requires more of players, but it's still OW content. There's a few things in OW like that, but not many.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

That's not really the point though - the point is that if you are someone actually doing this, and stacking buffs so high like this, which would presume you actually know what stats do and what builds do, already means you never needed the buffs in the first place to be better then a large amount of players. Its basically just making strong players who don't need it, stronger while still not helping the weaker players. 

How would a new player know exactly that they need to stack these buff timers when they have just started the game? You only find it at the games current most recent content, so by the time you get there, you've already finished. You don't get the Jade bot as you do your first mount, which is from the very first PoF quest. PoF gives you essentially no spoilers but you'd def be spoilt doing the quests leading up to the bot. 

So it doesn't help new players, it doesn't help struggling players, it doesn't help players who have chat turned off and don't use third party guides. It only helps the players who don't need it.  

I wasn't making a judgment, but you'll get no argument from me that adding this flavor of power creep might not have been the best idea.

 

 

[Taclism.2406]

I'm fairly sure the only reason people get mad about low LI builds is because it can easily outperform "optimized but complex" builds provided the latter does mistakes.
As they say, dont hate the players, hate the game. Its easy to understand why 10apm builds with 20-22k average dps are gonna be more popular than 200apm builds with dps ranging from 10 to 35k depending on your game sense and speed of execution.

Now I'm of the mind you dont even need LI builds given how low intensity even most raids are compared to other MMOs, but I don't care if someone uses one as long as this crutch is enough to free their mind and helps them react quickly to bosses mechanics.

Imo the only problem with LI right now is its pointing out balancing issues
You're basically told "if you wanna LI, play ranger, engi or nec".
Either have one somewhat viable LI on every class, or no LI build at all. Pick one.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If that happens in OW, then it is a game design's fault. Because one of the core ideas behind OW was that noone, not even a player with no skill at all, was supposed to be a dead weight there. You were supposed to be always glad to see other players.

I'm not saying it isn't. Anet does share the blame for this.

If you read the rest of my post, you would know that I said that there is something very wrong with having useless trait and skill choices that result in 2-3x difference even in zerker gear.

How is that fun for your average player? Oh sure, we tell them to go to metabattle and then they run full glass and die 100 times and think it's dumb. Or they google some Youtuber that only half knows what they're talking about and doesn't cater to their needs. They'll just give up.

Hence, we need LI builds to be made into some kind of standard. The level 80 boost already changed from soldier to cele gear to keep up with the times, and stuff like that does matter.

You should be glad to see other players, otherwise bad stuff will happen.

 

 

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

That's not true at all and you know it. OW content and Story content does require combat but does not require mastery of the combat system.

Well yea, but we're not exactly talking about mastering it to any degree.

And before you say anything, there have been many complaints about story being too hard. Whether or not these complaints are rightful or not, it is entirely possible to fail because of a severe lack of combat skill.

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well it depends on what you define as group content. Group events and world bosses don't require players to be good generally. You'll get it done regardless. And most meta's can be done by pressing 1,1,1. Even when there's a timer on it, there usually are enough people that make it work anyway.

Well, usually someone knows what they're doing. There's quite a degree of carrying happening. There's plenty of AB and TD metas that fail when enough  people don't know what they're doing.

Heck before HoT came out, even killing Vinewrath was an uncertainty at times. But now you have so many experienced players that can pretty much carrry the whole thing.

I mean people can go afk now and succeed, after all.

Edited June 2, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If that happens in OW, then it is a game design's fault. Because one of the core ideas behind OW was that noone, not even a player with no skill at all, was supposed to be a dead weight there. You were supposed to be always glad to see other players.

Have some players gather flowers or just simply chat near the event which scales it when they don't contribute in any way. Are you happy to see those players? Are they not dead weight? Right, then what you've just said was never even true, but it sure does sound nice in theory, where you can simply assume everyone contributes.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

That's not true at all and you know it. OW content and Story content does require combat but does not require mastery of the combat system. And so that's the majority of the content in this game. That content is not balanced around skill. Skill just means you get done faster. People who are more skilled tend to complain about how easy OW is to the point that it bores them to tears. 

...what? That's a pretty weird take. If you're trying to play football and repeatedly fail to kick a ball, you're clearly a bad football player. Now you're arguing that since that person doesn't play on a higher level or doesn't compete, it means it doesn't matter for them so... they're not bad at football. That's absolutely false, they're still bad at what they were trying to do, whether they're having fun, whether it means anything in their life or if they're competing with anyone or not. Being good or bad at something is disconnected from having fun or it mattering to them, yet you keep trying to dismiss one by substituting it with the other.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Gehenna.3625]

11 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well yea, but we're not exactly talking about mastering it to any degree.

Well it's not zero mastery. At least they know how to press buttons and have selected utilities and traits and specs. When people talk about rotations like 1,1,1 this is an exaggeration and is mostly seen in world boss fights. But there is a BIG difference between someone who dabbles in the combat system and someone who understands it.

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And before you say anything, there have been many complaints about story being too hard. Whether or not these complaints are rightful or not, it is entirely possible to fail because of a severe lack of combat skill.

Sure, but those complaints do die down and there are many story bosses that you can die and get auto-ressed ad infinitum. So if you do some damage in between resses you will get there in the end.

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Well, usually someone knows what they're doing. There's quite a degree of carrying happening. There's plenty of AB and TD metas that fail when enough  people don't know what they're doing.

It happens sometimes, but as you say there are usually people who do know what's up and they do carry the rest My point is that because it still works, it still persists. 

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Heck before HoT came out, even killing Vinewrath was an uncertainty at times.

Well and there's the experience factor of learning the boss fights as well that makes a difference.

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But now you have so many experienced players that can pretty much carrry the whole thing.

I mean people can go afk now and succeed, after all.

Yeah and this is what's part of the issue. The better some players get, the less others have to do. And this has to do with the complexities of the combat system where you can either do 1K DPS or 30K DPS and everything in between. And because of how OW is balanced when you do top DPS you could end up doing the work of multiple players. And the thing is that they can't change this by making the content harder because they will lose too many players that way.

The other way is to simplify the combat system and make people do more DPS without trying, but that will also chase a lot of players away.

It's a helluva thing really.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[Astralporing.1957]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Have some players gather flowers or just simply chat near the event which scales it when they don't contribute in any way. Are you happy to see those players? Are they not dead weight? Right, then what you've just said was never even true, but it sure does sound nice in theory, where you can simply assume everyone contributes.

If a player that is afk or just not in combat can scale the event up, then yes, that is also the design's fault. If such scaling can make the event so much more difficult you would notice the difference to the point of being actively unhappy, then it is even bigger design fault. If however a player actively participating in the event can have negative impact on it to the point some people start thinking about prefiltering (or asking some players to get off the map), then it is an absolutely major design messup. Because by that point the whole idea behind OW goes out of the window.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Gorem.8104]

8 hours ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

to avoid the bickering, i'll ask a question. Do you all know of any other low intensity builds for different classes? I really enjoy the guides that have a step by step tier if you want to slowly get better like

 

I. auto-attack

2. auto-attack and use 'x' ability off cooldown

3. etc

4.

5. you're basically Sobx

edit: no markdown apparently

I like this, lets spitball some idea's. I know Mukluk has started to do some pve instanced based guides on his channel for this purpose as well. Where the more buttons you can slowly press have more effect but still effective with less. 

I know Hizen's Mechanist build is honestly rather LI, like I hardly know how to play my engie but got all the right stats (cele gear) and got the runes and build ect. ready. When I tried it out I had no idea what I was doing but all I knew it was both tanky and able to kill stuff. Can treat it both as high intensity or low I'd think. Can find that one over on his YT channel. 

as for myself, I mained Warrior before swapping to Ranger, I'd still main warrior but.. ya know. 

My only worry about posting build idea's here is Anet might nerf anything we come up with... ;-; I have one in mind for Rangers but too scared to post

Edited June 3, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

My only worry about posting build idea's here is Anet might nerf anything we come up with... ;-; I have one in mind for Rangers but too scared to post

Ranger is easy. Fully buffed (but no food) condi shortbow SB autoattacking from  behind is 10k already. Then you add food, and spam skills of cooldown.

[AliamRationem.5172]

6 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I like this, lets spitball some idea's. I know Mukluk has started to do some pve instanced based guides on his channel for this purpose as well. Where the more buttons you can slowly press have more effect but still effective with less. 

I know Hizen's Mechanist build is honestly rather LI, like I hardly know how to play my engie but got all the right stats (cele gear) and got the runes and build ect. ready. When I tried it out I had no idea what I was doing but all I knew it was both tanky and able to kill stuff. Can treat it both as high intensity or low I'd think. Can find that one over on his YT channel. 

as for myself, I mained Warrior before swapping to Ranger, I'd still main warrior but.. ya know. 

My only worry about posting build idea's here is Anet might nerf anything we come up with... ;-; I have one in mind for Rangers but too scared to post

I don't think you have anything to worry about.  I've been sharing staff mirage for 4 years now and they actually buffed it since then!

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If a player that is afk or just not in combat can scale the event up, then yes, that is also the design's fault. If such scaling can make the event so much more difficult you would notice the difference to the point of being actively unhappy, then it is even bigger design fault.

But it is a thing, even if not everywhere, so when you keep repeating those phrases that basically just sound nice, it was never entirely true anyways and is basically impossible to make entirely true while having gameplay where the player choices actually matter.

Quote

If however a player actively participating in the event can have negative impact on it to the point some people start thinking about prefiltering (or asking some players to get off the map), then it is an absolutely major design messup. Because by that point the whole idea behind OW goes out of the window.

Like above: it is basically impossible to make that claim entirely true while having gameplay where the player choices actually matter. Not only that but it's a silly idea that forces entire OW to be the same and just be an overly easy faceroll content with no space for anything else, which is in itself nonsense. The content in OW can easly vary in difficulty and there's nothing wrong with that. The idea about "OW content" being equivalent of "must be face-roll easy or bad design!" is in itself simply wrong and a misunderstanding of what "OW" means in the first place.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But it is a thing, even if not everywhere, so when you keep repeating those phrases that basically just sound nice, it was never entirely true anyways and is basically impossible to make entirely true while having gameplay where the player choices actually matter.

Like above: it is basically impossible to make that claim entirely true while having gameplay where the player choices actually matter. Not only that but it's a silly idea that forces entire OW to be the same and just be an overly easy faceroll content with no space for anything else, which is in itself nonsense. The content in OW can easly vary in difficulty and there's nothing wrong with that.

Nevertheless, that's how Anet advertised open world, and many, many players bought into that idea. That's one of the reasons why anything in that mode that conflicts with that vision too strongly causes so much negative reactions.

Again, i never said GW2 game design is consistent and well matches its playerbase. Quite the opposite, i have always pointed out that those two things do not match all that well.

[Sobx.1758]

On 6/3/2022 at 7:49 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nevertheless, that's how Anet advertised open world, and many, many players bought into that idea. That's one of the reasons why anything in that mode that conflicts with that vision too strongly causes so much negative reactions.

10 years ago and after some time it became apparent that if people don't have a need to improve because they can faceroll content with whatever, they'll just keep ignoring the game's mechanics and faceroll the content. So you're just complaining that the game didn't remain in the distant past, where it would just result in a stagnant, dead mmorpg.

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Again, i never said GW2 game design is consistent and well matches its playerbase. Quite the opposite, i have always pointed out that those two things do not match all that well.

I'm a bit lost here, where did I say you said that? Or what exactly is this responding to?

 

e: Ah, so nowhere. You just wanted to say "again, I never said..." as if I "again" claimed you've said something you didn't even though that wasn't the case, got it.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[AliamRationem.5172]

Went ahead and uploaded a new video of my favorite LI build: Staff Mirage.  In my opinion, it's the easiest build you can play.  It's absolutely bulletproof for open world/story content, provides excellent support, and isn't half bad on damage either!  Here's a Balthazar solo in 59 seconds using the build.  That translates to roughly 12.5k DPS, which should be plenty to keep the elitist boogeyman off your back, especially considering you also bring 25x might and alacrity for allies to the table!

 

[Gibson.4036]

7 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Went ahead and uploaded a new video of my favorite LI build: Staff Mirage.  In my opinion, it's the easiest build you can play.  It's absolutely bulletproof for open world/story content, provides excellent support, and isn't half bad on damage either!  Here's a Balthazar solo in 59 seconds using the build.  That translates to roughly 12.5k DPS, which should be plenty to keep the elitist boogeyman off your back, especially considering you also bring 25x might and alacrity for allies to the table!

 

Thanks for your efforts to present LI builds for those who need or even just want them! It’s a great service to the community.

[Gibson.4036]

16 hours ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

to avoid the bickering, i'll ask a question. Do you all know of any other low intensity builds for different classes? I really enjoy the guides that have a step by step tier if you want to slowly get better like

 

I. auto-attack

2. auto-attack and use 'x' ability off cooldown

3. etc

4.

5. you're basically Sobx

edit: no markdown apparently

In addition to staff/staff mirage, bounding dodger daredevil is still really easy for almost all open world content, even with the IP nerf. Staff 4 to blind foes, autoattack. Dodge frequently.

With thief’s initiative, you can’t use 4 “off cooldown” but you can do it as often as needed to keep blind up on enemies.

So two skills plus dodge, but you do need to be able to watch the blind icon, too. 
 

For enemies with breakbars, use pistol/pistol as your other set, spam 4 to break the bar. Spam 3 until you run out of initiative. Autoattack until you have initiative again.

Too complicated to be considered LI? Even though I describe swapping weapons, you really camp one set or the other depending on the situation.

[ArchonWing.9480]

18 hours ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

to avoid the bickering, i'll ask a question. Do you all know of any other low intensity builds for different classes? I really enjoy the guides that have a step by step tier if you want to slowly get better like

 

 

Could, but you need to specify which classes as I don't think many people are going to want to come up with 8 or 9 builds. Also for just Open world or instanced contents.

Also please don't make jabs at other people if you actually want help.

Edited June 3, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480