Why Guild Wars 2 Especially Needs Low Intensity Builds

[Gibson.4036]

The "massive" in MMO means a broad and diverse player base. In order to have the population everyone wants you have to have a mix of low and high skilled players, people who can play hours every day and people who log on for an hour or two a couple times a week. That means developers have to carefully thread the needle between challenging players with more skill and play time, while still accomodating players with less skill and playtime.

In the traditional MMO model, the gear treadmill and steadily increasing level cap actually help this happen.

It seems counterintuitive. Many casual GW2 players praise it for its static level cap and lack of gear treadmill. I'm one. I love that I could take a many year break and come back and not feel drastically left behind.

BUT

In other MMOs one of the main ways players with less time and skill manage content that is still challenging for players with more time and skill is by overleveling and overgearing content. A plyaer can hang out in an zone, doing every possible sidequest, maybe even farming mobs for XP if the game is built that way, until they are significantly higher level than the next area they need to explore. They can go deep into crafting, making the strongest possible armor for their level while more skilled players breeze through content on lower quality drops. They can wait until they are well past the level where a dungeon first opens to them and come back to do it.

GW2, with its downscaling, hard level cap, and lack of loot treadmill doesn't offer these options. That means builds are where players find the ability to scale the game to what they can do. And that's why low-skill, low-playtime players are disappointed and maybe even a little panicked. They currently don't see an alternative way to make their favorite game accessible again.

I have a feeling some of the reaction to the nerf to the "training wheels" builds will die down over time. This is because friendly high-skill, high-time investment players are even now exploring the new stat sets and e-specs. They will eventually find new builds that help them solo very hard content. They will share those with the community, and the low-skilled players will use them to cushion ordinary content so they can play again. Finally, if the HoT pattern is any indication, ArenaNet will at some point realize they're losing a decent portion of their players and adjust somehow. All of these things will help players play at their comfort level again.

IF they are still around.

This moment is a test on patience though. A low-skilled player, excited by all the previews of a new land, suddenly finds themselves having to rethink their builds instead of jumping into the new content they bought. On top of that, the build sites are challenging to deal with right now due to the API being down, so it's even difficult to go look up alternatives. Add to that a handful of players sneering "you can autoattack open world content and do fine" at them, which is blatantly false.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Gibson.4036
Slight edit to remove an apparently triggering word

[Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.294]

You can still find valid open-world builds on YouTube, which doesn't require the API to be up.  Several months ago, I found a scrapper build on YT that...completely changed Scrapper for me.  I had tried several of the builds on MetaBattle and a couple of other sites to work for me, and they just weren't doing it.  I didn't enjoy them at all and just didn't feel like I was being successful, even on a full power build.  Then I found my current scrapper build and BOOM, I was strolling through stuff I'd had trouble with before, and, more importantly, I was having FUN!  I took my Scrapper into the Queen's Jubilee and into fights that I would normally only take a necro.

Another example:  NikeDNT put out an open-world, power Spellbreaker build on YT a few days ago.  I'd been looking for something to update my Berserker with and decided to try it.  While I still got killed trying to solo a group event in EoD Monday, I am getting better with it.  I still miss Berserker's headbutt and I think I like having taking Bull's Charge over For Great Justics!, but, that's just a hang up from running so many CC's in HoT!

[Tatwi.3562]

19 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

GW2, with its downscaling, hard level cap, and lack of loot treadmill doesn't offer these options. That means builds are where players find the ability to scale the game to what they can do. And that's why low-skill, low-playtime players are disappointed and maybe even a little panicked. They currently don't see an alternative way to make their favorite game accessible again.
...

This moment is a test on patience though. A low-skilled player, excited by all the previews of a new land, suddenly finds themselves having to rethink their builds instead of jumping into the new content they bought. On top of that, the build sites are challenging to deal with right now due to the API being down, so it's even difficult to go look up alternatives. Add to that a handful of toxic players sneering "you can autoattack open world content and do fine" at them, which is blatantly false.

This is worth repeating until it's taken to heart by ArenaNet and fixed. A huge portion of the player base is just average people having fun being average, if not derpy.

 

Sincerely,

 

Derpy Average Person (who has been using the same gear for, like... 6 or 7 years)

[Jin.8501]

Viper and trailblazer. Done. 

[Pezz.4758]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

The "massive" in MMO means a broad and diverse player base. In order to have the population everyone wants you have to have a mix of low and high skilled players, people who can play hours every day and people who log on for an hour or two a couple times a week. That means developers have to carefully thread the needle between challenging players with more skill and play time, while still accomodating players with less skill and playtime.

In the traditional MMO model, the gear treadmill and steadily increasing level cap actually help this happen.

It seems counterintuitive. Many casual GW2 players praise it for its static level cap and lack of gear treadmill. I'm one. I love that I could take a many year break and come back and not feel drastically left behind.

BUT

In other MMOs one of the main ways players with less time and skill manage content that is still challenging for players with more time and skill is by overleveling and overgearing content. A plyaer can hang out in an zone, doing every possible sidequest, maybe even farming mobs for XP if the game is built that way, until they are significantly higher level than the next area they need to explore. They can go deep into crafting, making the strongest possible armor for their level while more skilled players breeze through content on lower quality drops. They can wait until they are well past the level where a dungeon first opens to them and come back to do it.

GW2, with its downscaling, hard level cap, and lack of loot treadmill doesn't offer these options. That means builds are where players find the ability to scale the game to what they can do. And that's why low-skill, low-playtime players are disappointed and maybe even a little panicked. They currently don't see an alternative way to make their favorite game accessible again.

I have a feeling some of the reaction to the nerf to the "training wheels" builds will die down over time. This is because friendly high-skill, high-time investment players are even now exploring the new stat sets and e-specs. They will eventually find new builds that help them solo very hard content. They will share those with the community, and the low-skilled players will use them to cushion ordinary content so they can play again. Finally, if the HoT pattern is any indication, ArenaNet will at some point realize they're losing a decent portion of their players and adjust somehow. All of these things will help players play at their comfort level again.

IF they are still around.

This moment is a test on patience though. A low-skilled player, excited by all the previews of a new land, suddenly finds themselves having to rethink their builds instead of jumping into the new content they bought. On top of that, the build sites are challenging to deal with right now due to the API being down, so it's even difficult to go look up alternatives. Add to that a handful of toxic players sneering "you can autoattack open world content and do fine" at them, which is blatantly false.

 

Very well said, thank you for this, sums up my experience all to well.

The timing of the release of patch notes is also tickling my self preservation instinct.

Waiting until the last possible second ensuring maximum preorders and refutable returns feels like a mobile game tactic, not the community focused friendly Guild Wars 2.

[Gibson.4036]

29 minutes ago, Jin.8501 said:

Viper and trailblazer. Done. 

I've used both Marauder's and Trailblazer's on my gear to help me get used to new builds, slowly shifting them to Viper's and Berserker's as I get used to the builds. They do provide some helpful survivability.

They are not, however, nearly as strong as someone overleveling or overgearing in other games. For that level of adjustment players use both defensive gear and traits that give them a cushion to offset their skill.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Khisanth.2948]

35 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I've used both Marauder's and Trailblazer's on my gear to help me get used to new builds, slowly shifting them to Viper's and Berserker's as I get used to the builds. They do provide some helpful survivability.

They are not, however, nearly as strong as someone overleveling or overgearing in other games. For that level of adjustment players use both defensive gear and traits that give them a cushion to offset their skill.

There is more to a build than just the stats.

Are the people complaining already using all the options available? Discussions so far has been ... vague.  There was roughly one thing per affected class that was changed. What about all the rest of the sustain options? Yes I am also being vague here but that is because I don't want to spend time listing the possibility only for people to ignore them in favor of simply complaining about change.

[Gibson.4036]

31 minutes ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

There is more to a build than just the stats.

Are the people complaining already using all the options available? Discussions so far has been ... vague.  There was roughly one thing per affected class that was changed. What about all the rest of the sustain options? Yes I am also being vague here but that is because I don't want to spend time listing the possibility only for people to ignore them in favor of simply complaining about change.

I do expect other options will emerge. The problem is that the population who uses these things does look to other players to point the way, since buildcrafter and low-skill, low-time typically doesn't overlap. If they came on Player Helping Players saying HoT was kicking them to the curb and got told, "Hey, try this build it will help", they aren't likely pouring through tooltips right now finding alternate ways to get back some survivability.

26 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You couldn't write a novel like this one without finishing up by being toxic yourself.  Like we don't already have 30 toxic threads on the subject already?

Even elementalist has playable LI builds.  Let that sink in. 

There is really no reasoning with this fantasy born of pure salt.  We get it. It was a bad time to nerf sustain. But be honest.  There would never be a good time even though some of these changes make perfect sense and were arguably justified.

My apologies that it came across that way. I was trying to zoom out to a bigger picture beyond "torment runes bad" "no torment runes good". It's lengthy because I was shooting for something more nuanced, like adding the expectation that the community does recover over time as new builds are demonstrated, not because I'm in some sort of triggered state.

It occured to me that GW2 is unique because of some of its particular design choices, and I wanted to share that. I can also see the value of having a conversation that isn't an argument about whether "ANet Hates Solo Players!!!"

Edited March 2, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Kastagir.2146]

ESO got this right. It's to bad that the devs here listened only to the hardcore player base and ignore the casual players. They would have a bigger population if they had. They could fix it if they really wanted too.

[BlueJin.4127]

In my early 20's, I used to compete nationally in video games. These days, I consider myself a casual gamer. While I still love difficult games (I have no problems completing Pantheon of Hallownest in Hollow Knight, beating Master Ninja difficulty in Ninja Gaiden games, etc.), majority of my video game time is spent playing casually for relaxation.

GW2 is one of my casual games where I mostly only do casual contents. Due to various designs and issues, I don't really enjoy playing GW2 in a high skill environment. Also, while I do group contents in GW2, I mainly play GW2 as a casual solo game. MMO isn't just about playing with other players, as some players confuse it to be. Just being in a huge world around other players creates a very dynamic and immersive environment that brings the world to life, even if one never chats with other players. This is an experience one can't get in purely single player games. Plenty of solo players play MMO's for such reasons and veteran MMO game developers know this.

While the nerfs to sustain don't bother me much, no doubt that there are plenty of very casual players who are highly affected by these. One would have to be incredibly narrow minded to not realize this. "Get good" is a dumb response. For some players, getting good is not easily doable due to disabilities, age, poor internet connection, etc. For other players, they may already good enough; it's just that they only find the game fun when playing casually.

Hopefully, Anet can find some kind of middle-ground where they can make as many different types of players happy as possible. In the mean time, I would like to suggest players who are highly affected by the nerfs to give it some time. There may be other builds that can grant similar types of low intensity and high sustain experience that you're looking for.

Edited March 10, 2022 by BlueJin.4127

[Gibson.4036]

27 minutes ago, BlueJin.4127 said:

Hopefully, Anet can find some kind of middle-ground where they can make as many different types of players happy as possible. In the mean time, I would like to suggest players who are highly affected by the nerfs to give it some time. There may be other builds that can grant similar types of low intensity and high sustain experience that you're looking for.

I think this will be the case, based on past experience.

Hopefully players hit hard by the nerfs can have some patience, and hopefully players who were not can treat them with some understanding.

[Asum.4960]

4 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Add to that a handful of toxic players sneering "you can autoattack open world content and do fine" at them, which is blatantly false.

 

I just played through my fist time EoD with this new Harbinger AA build (just go into Shroud, hold down 1 - 25 Might, 25 Vuln, perma Quickness, Fury, Regen for ~15-20k DPS with enough sustain from Alchemic Vigor, Regen and Signets - which you can actively use Vampirism and Locust in a pinch for more active healing - and boon strip - and get them back in shroud). Never even remotely struggled once - be it story, metas, OW/HP's or even soloing group events, just circling around while auto attacking. 

 

If you want to make this even easier, go Lich Runes (then with Torment Sigil) and or Flesh Golem for more targets.

 

Builds like this exist for just about every profession, if not multiple - this is just what I made for my first playthrough on a new spec. 

 

Telling people they can AA through OW and story content isn't "toxic sneering", it's a fact that reminding people of is intended to help players out for when they think you have to strain yourself and be a great player to get through the game - when really you just need to play smarter (better builds) rather than harder (pressing everything off cooldown and going crazy).

Edited March 2, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Gibson.4036]

12 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

I just played through my fist time EoD with this new Harbinger AA build (just go into Shroud, hold down 1 - 25 Might, 25 Vuln, perma Quickness, Fury, Regen for ~15-20k DPS with enough sustain from Alchemic Vigor, Regen and Signets - which you can actively use Vampirism and Locust in a pinch for more active healing - and boon strip - and get them back in shroud). Never even remotely struggled once - be it story, metas, OW/HP's or even soloing group events, just circling around while auto attacking. 

That's cool. I expect things like you're describing will get discovered and shared with the population, and people will find new builds. The population that is in shock over the new changes, however, are not the people to be in EoD right now theorycrafting new builds for the new especs. It'll take some time.

12 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Telling people they can AA through OW and story content isn't "toxic sneering", it's a fact that reminding people of is intended to help players out for when they think you have to strain yourself and be a great player to get through the game - when really you just need to play smarter (better builds) rather than harder (pressing everything off cooldown and going crazy).

I don't know about the build you posted, but even the overpowered builds that got nerfed couldn't auto attack through open world content. A renegade  with tormenting runes was at least using bloodbane path and sevenshot for damage, Icerazor's to proc the runes for the healing, assuming they never encounter a meaningful breakbar. If they'd stood there using Shattershot they'd die  and die quickly against anything more than one level 80 mob. It's easy play, but it's defnitely not autoattacking for the win.

Even straight simple P/P unload requires you to use unload.

The posts I've seen claiming you can AA through open world content were definitely sneering.

There's a wide expanse between "autoattack through open world content" and "you don't have to strain yourself and be a great player to get through the game". The latter is true, the former is just a way to express superiority.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Pezz.4758]

9 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

I just played through my fist time EoD with this new Harbinger AA build (just go into Shroud, hold down 1 - 25 Might, 25 Vuln, perma Quickness, Fury, Regen for ~15-20k DPS with enough sustain from Alchemic Vigor, Regen and Signets - which you can actively use Vampirism and Locust in a pinch for more active healing - and boon strip - and get them back in shroud). Never even remotely struggled once - be it story, metas, OW/HP's or even soloing group events, just circling around while auto attacking. 

 

Builds like this exist for just about every profession, if not multiple - this is just what I made for my first playthrough on a new spec. 

 

Telling people they can AA through OW and story content isn't "toxic sneering", it's a fact that reminding people of is intended to help players out for when they think you have to strain yourself and be a great player to get through the game - when really you just need to play smarter (better builds) rather than harder (pressing everything off cooldown and going crazy).

 

Heres the issue I have with this, if there are other specs that can just as easily get through OW content with little trouble, then why nerf the POPULAR builds that could do so RIGHT before the expansion drop?

 

Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to ignorance. Fine, so assuming it wasnt a predatory bait and switch to force players into lackluster new Elite specs that cause Anet to wait until the last second to release patch notes after closing off any chance to cancel a pre order, what was the reason?

 

Forgoing any reason, why release these changes at launch? Forcing people who have been waiting 2 years to stop mid hype train to re-trait, regear and relearn a new spec, if they are just as capable, then the balance argument is moot?

 

And why should anyone feel comfortable investing in the NEW hotness if its just a rinse and repeat next balance patch hit the random nerf button and a subsect of the player base gets to reroll? 

 

 

[fourhim.3584]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

I just played through my fist time EoD with this new Harbinger AA build (just go into Shroud, hold down 1 - 25 Might, 25 Vuln, perma Quickness, Fury, Regen for ~15-20k DPS with enough sustain from Alchemic Vigor, Regen and Signets - which you can actively use Vampirism and Locust in a pinch for more active healing - and boon strip - and get them back in shroud). Never even remotely struggled once - be it story, metas, OW/HP's or even soloing group events, just circling around while auto attacking. 

 

Builds like this exist for just about every profession, if not multiple - this is just what I made for my first playthrough on a new spec. 

 

Telling people they can AA through OW and story content isn't "toxic sneering", it's a fact that reminding people of is intended to help players out for when they think you have to strain yourself and be a great player to get through the game - when really you just need to play smarter (better builds) rather than harder (pressing everything off cooldown and going crazy).

Sorry for the aside, but where is Fury coming from?  And would Trailblazer's make this better or worse?

Edited March 2, 2022 by fourhim.3584

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Pezz.4758 said:

 

Heres the issue I have with this, if there are other specs that can just as easily get through OW content with little trouble, then why nerf the POPULAR builds that could do so RIGHT before the expansion drop?

Which popular builds can't do so anymore though? 

I just soloed a Fractal with Celestial Renegade (completely unadjusted pre-expansion build) just to see - and while it's more work than just auto attacking (which anything should be, it's silly), it still breezed through. Less so than before when it was completely OP and desperately needed a nerf, but still a breeze (definitely more solid than the AA Harbinger I posted). 

If it can solo Fractals, it can solo everything OW and Story related still. 

 

Sure, some things will need some adjustment and some players will have to adapt, but to say GW2 doesn't have easy and low intensity builds and options anymore is just a flat out false kneejerk reaction. 

 

All that said, I do think Anet should have published the Patchnotes (even if incomplete) a week or so in advance to give players a heads up, and I'm also disappointed with that lack of communication, once again.

 

1 hour ago, fourhim.3584 said:

Sorry for the aside, but where is Fury coming from?  And would Pathfinder's make this better or worse?

Fury was added to Deathly Haste. The Build Editor hasn't updated to the EoD launch patch changes yet.

If with Pathfinder you mean Trailblazer - worse. You'll lack Boon duration, Power, Crit chance and damage for marginal Toughness and cdamage gains, plus the Healing Power helps with sustain. 

Celestial is pretty much the ultimate solo Build stat set, in which you want to cover all from debilitating conditions (namely Vuln), self boons, damage, some innate tankyness and self sustain.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Gibson.4036]

29 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Says the guy posting redundant and provocative posts.  You have understanding. You just don't have total agreement. You also have a lot of getting back what you give.

Again, my apologies for my posts coming across provocative to you. That is not my intent.

[Gibson.4036]

2 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Sure, some things will need some adjustment and some players will have to adapt, but to say GW2 doesn't have easy and low intensity builds and options anymore is just a flat out false kneejerk reaction. 

 

I hope that's not how my initial post read. My intent was to share why GW2 in particular needs them, and that it will take some time for players to find new ones.

[Asum.4960]

13 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I hope that's not how my initial post read. My intent was to share why GW2 in particular needs them, and that it will take some time for players to find new ones.

Fair enough, I may also be clouded by the general GW2 community response to.. just about anything. I just frequently wish this community would just ask for help and tips (which a lot of players, including myself, are more than happy to give), rather than the usual complaints and cries for content nerfs, etc. which just leads to unproductive arguments (not to say that's what you did here, and I appreciate your edit in that regard to further clarify). 

 

I agree with your premise why GW2 needs those options, and I agree with you in the sense that Anet gave too little time for adaption, patchnotes should have been released in advance. I also try to keep in mind that not everybody enjoys and understands theory-/buildcraft as much as I do (for me figuring out new builds and getting better is part of the enjoyment of new expansion content, but I understand for others it's just a hurdle) - but also those low intensity builds are still there. The previously OP specs are still up there, just not as ridiculously. 

 

Give yourself some time to adapt to the new mobs, try to find some joy in adapting your build and finding out what works better or worse. It'll be fine, low intensity playstyles are well and alive.

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Gibson.4036]

6 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Fair enough, I may also be clouded by the general GW2 community response to.. just about anything. I just frequently wish this community would just ask for help and tips (which a lot of players, including myself, are more than happy to give), rather than the usual complaints and cries for content nerfs, etc. which just leads to unproductive arguments (not to say that's what you did here). 

 

That was part of my goal in trying to take a step back and look at the big picture in a new thread, to get some distance on the "ANet Hates ME!" "Well git gud!" discussion. It didn't entirely work, which was certainly partially my fault at the end of my original post.

6 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

Give yourself some time to adapt to the new mobs, try to find some joy in adapting your build and finding out what works better or worse. It'll be fine, low intensity playstyles are well and alive.

 

This is excellent advice, though the players I know that fit this demographic are not likely to successfully work out their builds, and I'm not enough of a buildcrafter to help. I expect, sooner than we know it, new builds will start showing up on the build sites with detailed explanations on how to play them and the community will adapt.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[ugrakarma.9416]

I will wont have problem even if they purposely "force" new specs, if they wanst utterly unispired and cheap.

 

My main is a warrior, and a have a repulse for that replace-your-weapon concept, even worse, when i noticed its just a cheap copy of holosmith.

 

Whats the point of make legendary greatsword if the "meta" of your class is a fugly, steampunk "gun blade"?

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

That was part of my goal in trying to take a step back and look at the big picture in a new thread, to get some distance on the "ANet Hates ME!" "Well git gud!" discussion. It didn't entirely work, which was certainly partially my fault at the end of my original post.

This is excellent advice, though the players I know that fit this demographic are not likely to successfully work out their builds, and I'm not enough of a buildcrafter to help. I expect, sooner than we know it, new builds will start showing up on the build sites with detailed explanations on how to play them and the community will adapt.

I think you're right and pretty quickly players who concern themselves with designing LI builds will come up with some alternatives. 

Also keep in mind the celestial buff was big for a lot of these builds and especially for new players as it was added to the boost.  We alsoc have jade bots now which at the very least will grant a large vitality boost.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Hmm LI builds:

Flamethrower Mechanist

Blood/Death Scourge or Reaper

Signet Guardian

Any questions on that, feel free to ask . I don't really play thief/mesmer/warrior very well though.

Edited March 2, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I think you're right and pretty quickly players who concern themselves with designing LI builds will come up with some alternatives.

Yes. Those players will. If you haven't noticed, though, new builds dissemination throughout the general playerbase is a very slow process in GW2. The people that usually suffer the most are those that are not faithfully following the meta situation - and often not even checking the meta once in a (long) while. And in this game, those players happen to be in majority.

A game where builds matter a lot, and where to be up to date on meta you have to follow third-party sources should be extremely careful about introducing any major balance changes, unless it is perfectly fine with ditching the casual following and aims only to please the hardcores. Which is fine in a fully competitive game, or a niche game aiming at relatively small audience with taste for more challenging content, but is definitely not fine if the majority of the game's population consists of casual players that will have trouble adjusting to such changes.

I leave it for you to decide which of those types of games is GW2 closer to.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[fixit.7189]

ah i recall getting my rl friends to try out GW2...once they were 80, i linked them rotation lists for their profs to help them get better...and after seeing the 20+ button presses you have to do PERFECTLY in order to be a good dps immedietly made them quit. its been stated by anet them selves that the difference between an average player and a good one is MASSIVE. and this patch only widened that margin even bigger. wow. and some of you including anet want to remove the easier to play builds even more? are you nuts? the main issue for this game imo is the fact you have to be a master pianist to be good and that really tends to turn off people big time. all this to please a small minority of players. blah.

Edited March 2, 2022 by fixit.7189