Stop complaning and enjoy the game, here's how

[DragonMoon.6098]

21 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Hey, I have two out of three of those and I've managed to get better after playing this game for a few years. 🤔 But my philosophy is; Don't expect hard carries anywhere in team content.  Team content includes group events. 
 

With the advent of build templates, there's basically zero reason for a player to have a build they enjoy playing, and one they swap to for group content.  Even without the necessary attributes, being able to just give the usual damage boons is huge in open world content.  This isn't min/maxing, this is playing like you're part of a team.

I consider myself to be an above-average player as well, even if I don't raid because I choose not to. But, that doesn't change the fact that the game has always allowed for people to not have to be "above-average" in order to play open-world (public) group content. Go to any large meta, Triple Trouble, Tequatl...any of those...and you'll see players downed all over the place...players running around like idjuts. The events are still able to succeed even with a portion of players not really contributing much of anything. That's the way open-world (public) group content works. Now we have this EoD map that will fail if even 1% don't throw in 100%. That's not the way open-world (public) group content should work...it can't work. Because there will always be people who don't contribute. I've said it before...that's like failing an entire class for one person messing up on the final exam. What we've ended up with is elitist gatekeepers holding public maps hostage, being abusive towards casuals, and then players like me, the middle ground, being left out in the cold as a by-product. Who wins here? The elitist gatekeepers win. And that's not right. Everybody should have the chance to participate...without condition. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098

[Seraphis Zurvan.6839]

On 3/7/2022 at 6:36 AM, Sevens.9452 said:

 

oh and people seem to love complaining about rng:

one group did it with 6mins to spare (the post is gone so i cant link it)

and based on this analysis, rng only accounts for 3-5mins, so stop blaming rng, the meta's fine. and teapot is clearning the meta regularly at the moment

2nd oh before people go there, teapot already said: "We are on the case! But you didn't pay for the mount, you paid for the ability to unlock the mount!" (see comments section https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOm-BGR1ka0)

 

 

Say that again when Soo-Won dashes 8 times in a row after a CC phase. Please. Do so. It's usually three on the runs I've been leading. 🙂

 

Also MightyTeapot has access to a huge amount of players that are similarly skilled as he is. Yeah of course they're gonna clear easily.

 

That is also a minority of the player base. Not very many people have access to this. Hell most don't have access to a commander that has a brain for this kind of stuff, nor a guild.

 

This isn't sustainable in the long run, and locking content behind it that was a main feature of the game really isn't a good idea.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

17 minutes ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

I consider myself to be an above-average player as well, even if I don't raid because I choose not to. But, that doesn't change the fact that the game has always allowed for people to not have to be "above-average" in order to play open-world (public) group content. Go to any large meta, Triple Trouble, Tequatl...any of those...and you'll see players downed all over the place...players running around like idjuts. The events are still able to succeed even with a portion of players not really contributing much of anything. That's the way open-world (public) group content works. Now we have this EoD map that will fail if even 1% don't throw in 100%. That's not the way open-world (public) group content should work...it can't work. Because there will always be people who don't contribute. I've said it before...that's like failing an entire class for one person messing up on the final exam. What we've ended up with is elitist gatekeepers holding public maps hostage, being abusive towards casuals, and then players like me, the middle ground, being left out in the cold as a by-product. Who wins here? The elitist gatekeepers win. And that's not right. Everybody should have the chance to participate...without condition. 

You ever stop to think that, maybe, ANet's trying to step away from the afk enabling easymode open world?

Also, I've been at those old metas.  A good portion of the success with less participation is powercreep.  Something that should be taken out of the game, honestly, for the health of it all. Tequatl doesn't even get up from phase unless you're on a late map.  But back when it first launched, you'd be hard pressed to find guild groups capable of such a feat.  Then, as time went on, more people understood the mechanics, and simply did them. (More on turrets,  more people defending turrets, and more people on burn phases before spreading back to their defense spots).  Triple Trouble is about the same, honestly.

Now we have a map that's basically Tequatl 2.0 in terms of its difficulty at launch and people are complaining about how difficult it is just a week after  it's been out, not actually long enough for people to learn and understand mechanics and the fight.  I'm sorry you feel it's as though you're failing a 'class' for the faults of a few persons, but that's also the nature of cooperative play.  It happened in dungeons, it happens in other open world events (Where someone comes in, scales it up, doesn't actually help, and the event fails because of it), it happens in fractals, it happens in strikes, it happens in DRMs, and it happens in Raids, where one or more people not performing what they're supposed in any of the aforementioned content to do causes the squad to wipe or the event to fail.

Now, spending 2 hours on a meta event and not getting rewards for even your effort is actually lame.  HoT has this participation meter that ANet should have implemented here, so even on failure, players at least get something.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You ever stop to think that, maybe, ANet's trying to step away from the afk enabling easymode open world?

Also, I've been at those metas.  A good portion of the success with less participation is powercreep.  Something that should be taken out of the game, honestly, for the health of it all. Tequatl doesn't even get up from phase unless you're on a late map.  But back when it first launched, you'd be hard pressed to find guild groups capable of such a feat.  Then, as time went on, more people understood the mechanics, and simply did them. (More on turrets,  more people defending turrets, and more people on burn phases before spreading back to their defense spots).  Triple Trouble is about the same, honestly.

Now we have a map that's basically Tequatl 2.0 in terms of its difficulty at launch and people are complaining about how difficult it is just a week after  it's been out, not actually long enough for people to learn and understand mechanics and the fight.  I'm sorry you feel it's as though you're failing a 'class' for the faults of a few persons, but that's also the nature of cooperative play.  It happened in dungeons, it happens in other open world events (Where someone comes in, scales it up, doesn't actually help, and the event fails because of it), it happens in fractals, it happens in strikes, it happens in DRMs, and it happens in Raids, where one or more people not performing what they're supposed in any of the aforementioned content to do causes the squad to wipe or the event to fail.

Now, spending 2 hours on a meta event and not getting rewards for even your effort is actually lame.  HoT has this participation meter that ANet should have implemented here, so even on failure, players at least get something.

If so, then it's a terrible way to go about it. There should have been a series of meta leading up to it properly teaching mechanics one at a time. So people can spend a little bit of effort to overcome it. Move on to the next, spend a little bit of effort, etc.

Could even have been reworks of old fights with some new rewards. A collection leading up to the expansion or something like that. The sudden difference in challenge. The amount of necessary knowledge and very good execution that wasn't necessary ever before is the problem. The fact that you're really lead into it by the story, suggesting story level content is the problem. 

Tequatl 2.0 was nerfed. Basically all metas were rebalanced.

And yes. At the very least there should be rewards at failure as well as more rewards upon success. Right now you get a pitiful amount of gold making it genuinely worthless to try again after completion. And considering how frustrating it is, one really shouldn't try to even get that if they value their own sanity. It's not something a map to farm at all. It acts like a huge departure from previous content. And again, the issue isn't that it's different than before. It's how many things change all at once. Creating a much larger barrier than necessary. Properly implemented, the meta could remain at this difficulty without being frustrating. But nothing lead up to this. No one suggested it would be this case. Expectations were all over the place and it breaks those hard. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[DragonMoon.6098]

5 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You ever stop to think that, maybe, ANet's trying to step away from the afk enabling easymode open world?

Also, I've been at those old metas.  A good portion of the success with less participation is powercreep.  Something that should be taken out of the game, honestly, for the health of it all. Tequatl doesn't even get up from phase unless you're on a late map.  But back when it first launched, you'd be hard pressed to find guild groups capable of such a feat.  Then, as time went on, more people understood the mechanics, and simply did them. (More on turrets,  more people defending turrets, and more people on burn phases before spreading back to their defense spots).  Triple Trouble is about the same, honestly.

Now we have a map that's basically Tequatl 2.0 in terms of its difficulty at launch and people are complaining about how difficult it is just a week after  it's been out, not actually long enough for people to learn and understand mechanics and the fight.  I'm sorry you feel it's as though you're failing a 'class' for the faults of a few persons, but that's also the nature of cooperative play.  It happened in dungeons, it happens in other open world events (Where someone comes in, scales it up, doesn't actually help, and the event fails because of it), it happens in fractals, it happens in strikes, it happens in DRMs, and it happens in Raids, where one or more people not performing what they're supposed in any of the aforementioned content to do causes the squad to wipe or the event to fail.

...except those things you just named are not open-world, public, content. 

And no content is locked behind Tequatl. People purchased the expansion on the promise of being able to obtain a mount. Many people can't and won't be able to get it. Personally, I don't care about it because it's ugly af (to me), and I just prefer the SkyScale above anything. But, many people want that kitten turtle. 

The game can't just "step away" from something they've allowed players to do for 10 years. That's the player-base. Elitist snobs are a minority. So if the developers want to tailor the game for elitist snobs, they're going to lose gobs of players...and their money. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

Just now, DragonMoon.6098 said:

...except those things you just named are not open-world, public, content. 

And no content is locked behind Tequatl. People purchased the expansion on the promise of being able to obtain a mount. Many people can't and won't be able to get it. Personally, I don't care about it because it's ugly af (to me), and I just prefer the SkyScale above anything. But, many people want that kitten turtle. 

The game can't just "step away" from something they've allowed players to do for 10 years. That's the player-base. Elitist snobs are a minority. So if the developers want to tailor the game for elitist snobs, they're going to lose gobs of players...and their money. 

.. Do you really want me to list every open world group event that could potentially f ail if more players join and don't do the mechanics?  Really now?  I listed all the available group content there, including lumping together a lot of group meta events under " it happens in other open world events (Where someone comes in, scales it up, doesn't actually help, and the event fails because of it)". Imagine if no one did the portals on Shadow Behemoth, CC'd The Shatterer, did any of the mechanics on the Claw of Jormag, ignored the clean up crew  at Fire Elemental.
 

Quote

And no content is locked behind Tequatl.

Well, achievements were for the longest time at Tequatl.  So is Tequatl's hoard, but hey, what do I know.  Marionette had content locked behind it on its initial launch in season 1 with no promise of it coming back, ever.  Triple Trouble has the same  sort of ascended armor locked behind it as Tequatl has weapons.
 

Quote

People purchased the expansion on the promise of being able to obtain a mount.

Yep, and they still have the same opportunity everyone else  who paid for this expansion has to obtain that mount.

 

Quote

The game can't just "step away" from something they've allowed players to do for 10 years. That's the player-base. Elitist snobs are a minority. So if the developers want to tailor the game for elitist snobs, they're going to lose gobs of players...and their money. 

Oh a game can, it's called development.  Don't play pretend that you've not seen the constant whinging about afk farmers 'ruining' everything from task completion to verdant brink meta completion with the bauble farm.

[Seraphis Zurvan.6839]

22 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You ever stop to think that, maybe, ANet's trying to step away from the afk enabling easymode open world?

Also, I've been at those old metas.  A good portion of the success with less participation is powercreep.  Something that should be taken out of the game, honestly, for the health of it all. Tequatl doesn't even get up from phase unless you're on a late map.  But back when it first launched, you'd be hard pressed to find guild groups capable of such a feat.  Then, as time went on, more people understood the mechanics, and simply did them. (More on turrets,  more people defending turrets, and more people on burn phases before spreading back to their defense spots).  Triple Trouble is about the same, honestly.

Now we have a map that's basically Tequatl 2.0 in terms of its difficulty at launch and people are complaining about how difficult it is just a week after  it's been out, not actually long enough for people to learn and understand mechanics and the fight.  I'm sorry you feel it's as though you're failing a 'class' for the faults of a few persons, but that's also the nature of cooperative play.  It happened in dungeons, it happens in other open world events (Where someone comes in, scales it up, doesn't actually help, and the event fails because of it), it happens in fractals, it happens in strikes, it happens in DRMs, and it happens in Raids, where one or more people not performing what they're supposed in any of the aforementioned content to do causes the squad to wipe or the event to fail.

Now, spending 2 hours on a meta event and not getting rewards for even your effort is actually lame.  HoT has this participation meter that ANet should have implemented here, so even on failure, players at least get something.

 

Tequatl used to be hard before the power creep, yes. However.....

 

1. It has no advertised content hidden behind it that was considered a main feature of the expansion they are selling. You get a lot of Karma, potential for an Ascended Weapon, a bit of gold, and some basic loot.

 

2. Its mechanics are predictable, easy to follow, just punishing and you can still continuously attack it even during this time. The only key mainly is utilizing the turrets and defending the players using them.

 

Soo-Won......there is A LOT of mechanics where you can just do absolutely nothing about it. There's no counterplay, you sit there and wait. That's it and hope your high DPS will be enough to make up for the lost time. Not to mention many of the mechanics that allow you do absolutely nothing (aka the dash) can happen theoretically unlimited times in a row as far as we are aware. There's no check to stop this. I've seen three in a row in my runs of doing absolutely nothing sub 20% which caused a fail. There are reports of higher. There is also times where key mechanics that must succeed overlap each other, which should not happen with how difficult they are to deal with because of the density of the health for them. Namely, CC phase and Tail up at the same time. Almost every group I've done, and others have, you have to make a decision to fail one and succeed in the other, which can cause a fail.

 

These are the main gripes I think people are trying to express. It's not the difficulty of the content, it's the asinine logic behind some of it that make it artificially difficult, and locking advertised content behind it that was a main feature they paid for. Tequatl and TT didn't have this.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Seraphis Zurvan.6839

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

Just now, Seraphis Zurvan.6839 said:

 

Tequatl used to be hard before the power creep, yes. However.....

 

1. It has no advertised content hidden behind it that was considered a main feature of the expansion they are selling. You get a lot of Karma, potential for an Ascended Weapon, a bit of gold, and some basic loot.

 

2. It's mechanics are predictable, easy to follow, just punishing and you can still continuously attack it even during this time. The only key mainly is utilizing the turrets and defending the players using them.

 

Soo-Won......there is A LOT of mechanics where you can just do absolutely nothing about it. There's no counterplay, you sit there and wait. That's it and hope your high DPS will be enough to make up for the lost time. Not to mention many of the mechanics that allow you do absolutely nothing (aka the dash) can happen theoretically unlimited times in a row as far as we are aware. There's no check to stop this. I've seen three in my runs of doing absolutely nothing sub 20% which caused a fail. There are reports of higher. There is also times where key mechanics that must succeed overlap each other, which should not happen with how difficult they are to deal with because of the density of the health for them. Namely, CC phase and Tail up at the same time. Almost every group I've done, and others have, you have to make a decision to fail one and succeed in the other, which can cause a fail.

 

These are the main gripes I think people are trying to express. It's not the difficulty of the content, it's the asinine logic behind some of it that make it artificially difficult, and locking advertised content behind it that was a main feature they paid for. Tequatl and TT didn't have this.

1) IT wasn't expansion content anyways, it was living world content.
2) It still required actual reaction time and coordination regardless of this.

The RNG I can get behind being either made more consistent (EG, no more doubling up moves) or  removed entirely (It now has the same attack pattern regardless).

Also, again, and I'll state this till I'm blue in the face in regards to people who want the mount but haven't finished the new meta; "They still have the same opportunity everyone else  who paid for this expansion has to obtain that mount."

[Seraphis Zurvan.6839]

6 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

1) IT wasn't expansion content anyways, it was living world content.
2) It still required actual reaction time and coordination regardless of this.

The RNG I can get behind being either made more consistent (EG, no more doubling up moves) or  removed entirely (It now has the same attack pattern regardless).

Also, again, and I'll state this till I'm blue in the face in regards to people who want the mount but haven't finished the new meta; "They still have the same opportunity everyone else  who paid for this expansion has to obtain that mount."

 

Yes I know, but it isn't a fair comparison and it wasn't that controversial compared to this. That's my point. Yeah it certainly required coordination, but the long kitten prep time wasn't necessary. It was maybe 10 minutes? Just appropriate amount of people in key areas, 6 turrets, and a small team dedicated to killing fingers in Soldiers gear (at the time). Also, yeah before we could actually crit Teq, Soldiers gear was the meta for it if you were on boss, which is significantly more sustain for the same amount of effect you'd get in Berserkers. Elementalist Frost Bow and FGS shared with others trviailized the burn phases too.

 

And yeah you're right they do have the same opportunity as others to complete it. But a lot of it is also beyond their control like with the RNG stuff mid fight, or because a small portion of the group isn't getting the Dragons End Contributor which intentionally harms the group, or no one is grabbing the jade offensive and defensive buffs before they go. Most people don't even know those jade buffs also give starting boons to jumpstart DPS and it's basically free sustain and damage. Things like this is where the upset is coming from I think. While it is the nature of group content, even with Drakkar of Teq when first released, it wasn't this punishing. Not everyone is necessarily good at communicating that though.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

11 minutes ago, Seraphis Zurvan.6839 said:

 

Yes I know, but it isn't a fair comparison and it wasn't that controversial compared to this. That's my point. Yeah it certainly required coordination, but the long kitten prep time wasn't necessary. It was maybe 10 minutes? Just appropriate amount of people in key areas, 6 turrets, and a small team dedicated to killing fingers in Soldiers gear (at the time). Also, yeah before we could actually crit Teq, Soldiers gear was the meta for it if you were on boss, which is significantly more sustain for the same amount of effect you'd get in Berserkers. Elementalist Frost Bow and FGS shared with others trviailized the burn phases too.

 

Aight, Dragon's Stand.  Takes prep, lasts about 2 hours, required participation from all people on the map to succeed.  Regularly failed the first month of HoT launch.

In fact, that's true for all HoT metas.

 

Quote

And yeah you're right they do have the same opportunity as others to complete it. But a lot of it is also beyond their control like with the RNG stuff mid fight, or because a small portion of the group isn't getting the Dragons End Contributor which intentionally harms the group, or no one is grabbing the jade offensive and defensive buffs before they go. Most people don't even know those jade buffs also give starting boons to jumpstart DPS and it's basically free sustain and damage. Things like this is where the upset is coming from I think. While it is the nature of group content, even with Drakkar of Teq when first released, it wasn't this punishing. Not everyone is necessarily good at communicating that though.

Not everything is within your control at all times.  Expecting that to be the case in a cooperative open world of an MMO is not reasonable.

[Seraphis Zurvan.6839]

12 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Aight, Dragon's Stand.  Takes prep, lasts about 2 hours, required participation from all people on the map to succeed.  Regularly failed the first month of HoT launch.

In fact, that's true for all HoT metas.

 

Not everything is within your control at all times.  Expecting that to be the case in a cooperative open world of an MMO is not reasonable.

 

Chak Gherent and Auric Basin were the only two that were difficult. The biggest issue in Auric Basin was people not know when to stop because they don't read chat or have any basic discipline. Chak Gherent I'll give you that. But again, it falls under the Tequatl category. You did it for achievements and loot, and gen 2 legendaries. Dragons Stand....where most failed was killing some of the plants that drained the ley platforms. Once people got Ley Gliding, it was largely mitigated and success grew dramatically.

 

 

And you are certainly correct! It is unrealistic to expect anything to really be within your control. But that is also where the design flaw is. It's so reliant on everyone coming together to beat it by doing everything right that it is completely unrealistic to beat it any other way than have everyone within the current instance on the same page. However to add to that, even heavily coordinated groups still have a very high chance of failing to what I mentioned above. Artificial difficulty. The RNG isn't a bad thing by nature, in fact I welcome more of it in more encounters like this, but the way it was implemented here was sloppy, and with the tight DPS windows you have, it matters even more. They had good intentions to make a solid challenge, but they didn't really consider all the angles.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Seraphis Zurvan.6839
Added dragons stand clarification.

[DragonMoon.6098]

48 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

.. Do you really want me to list every open world group event that could potentially f ail if more players join and don't do the mechanics?  Really now?  I listed all the available group content there, including lumping together a lot of group meta events under " it happens in other open world events (Where someone comes in, scales it up, doesn't actually help, and the event fails because of it)". Imagine if no one did the portals on Shadow Behemoth, CC'd The Shatterer, did any of the mechanics on the Claw of Jormag, ignored the clean up crew  at Fire Elemental.

These events will still succeed if there are a few players who die constantly or who run around singing showtunes while everyone else does the work. Soo-Won will not. That one is all or nothing. In a raid or other instanced content where players can (and should) be selective of their grouping, that's fine. In an open-world meta event, that's not fine. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098

[Peterson.5172]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You ever stop to think that, maybe, ANet's trying to step away from the afk enabling easymode open world?

if this is what anet wanted to do, first thing would be to ban all the literal afk farmers

[Stelawrat.6589]

42 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

/snip

Also, again, and I'll state this till I'm blue in the face in regards to people who want the mount but haven't finished the new meta; "They still have the same opportunity everyone else  who paid for this expansion has to obtain that mount."

Well yes. Many of us have the opportunity to buy a lotto ticket. Very few of us, if any, will win. The difference is, we know the odds are stacked against us when we buy the lotto ticket. 

In this case, the mount was specifically marketed as easy to obtain. There was no hint whatsoever that the odds would be so stacked against us. 

For me, it makes no difference. I'm not interested in the mount, however I am interested in the story steps, the lore & the mastery points all of which are locked behind it, now pretty much out of reach.  

Also, could you please answer my previous questions put to you. Would really appreciate it. Thanks. o/

[Seraphis Zurvan.6839]

2 minutes ago, Stelawrat.6589 said:

Well yes. Many of us have the opportunity to buy a lotto ticket. Very few of us, if any, will win. The difference is, we know the odds are stacked against us when we buy the lotto ticket. 

In this case, the mount was specifically marketed as easy to obtain. There was no hint whatsoever that the odds would be so stacked against us. 

For me, it makes no difference. I'm not interested in the mount, however I am interested in the story steps, the lore & the mastery points all of which are locked behind it, now pretty much out of reach.  

Also, could you please answer my previous questions put to you. Would really appreciate it. Thanks. o/

 

If you're on NA I do have a group on Discord dedicated to handling this meta. We've had a few success runs so far and I am willing to assist!

[Horiksson.3410]

2 minutes ago, Seraphis Zurvan.6839 said:

 

If you're on NA I do have a group on Discord dedicated to handling this meta. We've had a few success runs so far and I am willing to assist!

FWIW, I'd like to join this! 

[Stelawrat.6589]

1 minute ago, Seraphis Zurvan.6839 said:

 

If you're on NA I do have a group on Discord dedicated to handling this meta. We've had a few success runs so far and I am willing to assist!

Thank you Seraphis! Beware! I may just take you up on this. :p

[Seraphis Zurvan.6839]

3 minutes ago, Horiksson.3410 said:

FWIW, I'd like to join this! 

Once Discord decides to function I'll bring ya in.

 

3 minutes ago, Stelawrat.6589 said:

Thank you Seraphis! Beware! I may just take you up on this. :p

What I said above.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

22 minutes ago, Seraphis Zurvan.6839 said:

 

Chak Gherent and Auric Basin were the only two that were difficult. The biggest issue in Auric Basin was people not know when to stop because they don't read chat or have any basic discipline. Chak Gherent I'll give you that. But again, it falls under the Tequatl category. You did it for achievements and loot, and gen 2 legendaries. Dragons Stand....where most failed was killing some of the plants that drained the ley platforms. Once people got Ley Gliding, it was largely mitigated and success grew dramatically.

You literally needed to do Chak to get into DS at one point.

The turtle also isn't actually content.  It's a singular mount.

 

Quote

And you are certainly correct! It is unrealistic to expect anything to really be within your control. But that is also where the design flaw is. It's so reliant on everyone coming together to beat it by doing everything right that it is completely unrealistic to beat it any other way than have everyone within the current instance on the same page. However to add to that, even heavily coordinated groups still have a very high chance of failing to what I mentioned above. Artificial difficulty. The RNG isn't a bad thing by nature, in fact I welcome more of it in more encounters like this, but the way it was implemented here was sloppy, and with the tight DPS windows you have, it matters even more. They had good intentions to make a solid challenge, but they didn't really consider all the angles.

Yeah, it's not a design flaw when the entire game from the get go encourages cooperation in the open world.

[Seraphis Zurvan.6839]

Just now, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You literally needed to do Chak to get into DS at one point.

The turtle also isn't actually content.  It's a singular mount.

 

Yeah, it's not a design flaw when the entire game from the get go encourages cooperation in the open world.

 

No.....you didn't. There was a second way. Always was. I barreled through HoT in two days.

 

And I suppose that's where our opinions differ! I like the encouragement of cooperation in open world, but again not everyone will. Which is fine. We can agree to disagree.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

17 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 DWC is obnoxious for the same reason.  If you want to do north, you first have to do south unless you're lucky enough to get in on a map in progress.  What happened to respecting your time?

 

You get rewards and progress to reward tracks on the map for just being there.  Sure there's all the rewards you could get doing both metas but you're still rewarded for being there, which is still respecting your time.  Silver waste is the same (Though with less repeatable achievements giving out rewards).  Dragon's Stand & Dragon Fall are both also very similar.  They've moved to rewarding you for the time you put into a map, which gets bigger the longer you play but you still get progress towards other rewards too.

As for your other question about squad organization and such for the Dragon's End meta; First off, I don't lead maps anymore after the clown fiesta that was HoT & PoF metas.  Like trying to teach illiterate lemmings who pretend they're listening only to not be and do the opposite or nothing at all when it comes to doing the mechanics.  While an overwhelming majority of the time the attempts succeed, it was still after hours of deliberation and copy/pasted explanation and frustration from at the very least 10 people literally standing in fire and not moving.  It's not my cup of tea, so I just jump in to an event, swap from my solo roaming build into a more team oriented build on the fly if necessary, and cover important boons and such for people.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

12 minutes ago, Seraphis Zurvan.6839 said:

 

No.....you didn't. There was a second way. Always was. I barreled through HoT in two days.

 

And I suppose that's where our opinions differ! I like the encouragement of cooperation in open world, but again not everyone will. Which is fine. We can agree to disagree.

Yes, you did at one point. That was changed shortly after launch as the required masteries for the second entrance to DS became largely accessible and easily attainable, thus allowing TD meta to be skipped to head straight into DS meta.

[MechanicalMind.9126]

6 hours ago, Miss Lana.5276 said:

No, as someone pointed out in another thread, all that would do would kill Dragon's End completely. The only reason people are doing it is for the turtle, and possibly achievements. If the turtle was removed it would die within a year.

 

Its going to die one way or another. You keep the turtle behind it its going to have people one and done it and people that come not that much later wont even have a chance to get the turtle. Or people like me that wont even bother and ill just move onto the next game. And with casual people that pay on the shop leaving.. your game is going to go *snaps fingers* pop. 

So move the turtle and just give the meta rewards thats akin to someone that wants to burn their face on it. Like crafting components or something. As its its not going to fly for much longer. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by MechanicalMind.9126

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You get rewards and progress to reward tracks on the map for just being there.  Sure there's all the rewards you could get doing both metas but you're still rewarded for being there, which is still respecting your time.  Silver waste is the same (Though with less repeatable achievements giving out rewards).  Dragon's Stand & Dragon Fall are both also very similar.  They've moved to rewarding you for the time you put into a map, which gets bigger the longer you play but you still get progress towards other rewards too.

As for your other question about squad organization and such for the Dragon's End meta; First off, I don't lead maps anymore after the clown fiesta that was HoT & PoF metas.  Like trying to teach illiterate lemmings who pretend they're listening only to not be and do the opposite or nothing at all when it comes to doing the mechanics.  While an overwhelming majority of the time the attempts succeed, it was still after hours of deliberation and copy/pasted explanation and frustration from at the very least 10 people literally standing in fire and not moving.  It's not my cup of tea, so I just jump in to an event, swap from my solo roaming build into a more team oriented build on the fly if necessary, and cover important boons and such for people.

Like I said, if I want to do north I either have to get lucky and join a map in progress or first do south.  It doesn't matter that I get rewards just for participating if incremental gold is not my primary reason for being there.  You're welcome to disagree, but in my opinion DWC should have been two separate maps.  For the same reason (respecting player's time), DE should have been designed like DS, without the lengthy pre-event cycle + 30 minute prep timer.

You may enjoy spending hours on a map because they give you gold.  Other players have different priorities when they play and there's really no benefit to forcing ever lengthier metas like this.  In my opinion, HoT did a much better job of respecting player's time.  You can hang out and earn gold by doing events or just show up for the meta.  Where they do have a lengthy, continuous meta (DS) they don't waste your time.  You just get in a meta map and get moving. 

I prefer that to the way maps like DWC and DE were designed to basically force you to be there for a very long time if you want to reach the final boss (or get lucky leeching someone else's map).  I say this even though I think the metas themselves are pretty good.  DWC south is a good time, honestly.  And DE has one of the most epic boss fights for open world I've ever seen.

[MechanicalMind.9126]

On 3/7/2022 at 7:36 AM, Sevens.9452 said:

 

oh and people seem to love complaining about rng:

one group did it with 6mins to spare (the post is gone so i cant link it)

and based on this analysis, rng only accounts for 3-5mins, so stop blaming rng, the meta's fine. and teapot is clearning the meta regularly at the moment

2nd oh before people go there, teapot already said: "We are on the case! But you didn't pay for the mount, you paid for the ability to unlock the mount!" (see comments section https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOm-BGR1ka0)

 

 

To be fair  i personally dont think Teapot gets it. I mean im glad hes trying to help people pass. But that in itself is the issue, if you have to hop on a discord and organize this much for an open world meta... i feel one has missed the point.  Metas havent been THIS involved all the way to this point. I mean sure auric basin is kinda coordinated but i have only seen that fail when theres not enough people on the map or someone burns a little too much. 

 

Also that one group that did it with 6 mins to spare was a discord group from Teapot lol... So yeah of course that was going to succeed.

Edited March 8, 2022 by MechanicalMind.9126