For a game whose original core values included the elimination of repetitive grind...

[SatyricL.2784]

Just now, Snowmane.5826 said:

You cannot craft legendary precursors from the first generation of legendaries without randomised drops

You literally can. How long have you been gone from the game?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spark_(weapon)

 

Quote

Fractals I was referring to the fractal weapon skins

Which ones? Base or gold? Because both of those have guaranteed ways of acquiring them.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Weapon_Crate
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gold_Fractal_Axe

[Snowmane.5826]

Just now, Harrada.8041 said:

You literally can. How long have you been gone from the game?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spark_(weapon)

 

Which ones? Base or gold? Because both of those have guaranteed ways of acquiring them.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Weapon_Crate
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gold_Fractal_Axe

 

Huh, I stand corrected on that one, I swear you used to require drops from specific creatures for the legendaries and didn't know about the Fractals because they are not content I particularly enjoy.

[Vayne.8563]

7 hours ago, Harrada.8041 said:

Nice. Only 20 minutes for 4 of them? Thats awesome. Only about 46 more to go to have a decent chance to roll one of the dozen fish you need it for. See you after 4 more hours of standing there rolling the dice. Of course if you have slightly unfavorable luck, you can chalk that up to a total of 8.5. For that one fish. Oh but wait, you need about a dozen more fish. So lets just round that up to potentially a week of standing in place rolling the dice for mackerel.

We can be dismissive, sarcastic, and passive-aggressive in your comments all you want, but at the end of the day you were wrong on all of your points. Or do you have another RNG collection to compare it to that you will ignore all the other means of acquiring?

So an achievement might take a long time? Is that your argument. Your original argument is that they don't drop at all.  I guarantee you when this game launched the amount if time it would have taken me to get giant slayer was ages. We didn't have the giants that came out with POF. Orr Giants didn't count toward giant slayer. What a way to move the goal posts.

You made it sound like it was an extremely rare drop but I was averaging a mackeral every 5-10 minutes.  And since there is plenty to fish for and people do fish, some people will end up with tons of mackeral over time.  This isn't some hard RNG thing that you can't get and it's impossible. This is an achievement that will take time, if you want to do it.

 

There's a skin I wanted to unlock for a tonic that requires me to gamble in the mystic forge over and over again with other tonics I have to make that cost me gold in game. I've tried several times for that endless tonic and it's never dropped for me.  At the end of the day, a hard to get skin that you can get over time is no big deal.

What what you're saying is an achievement or skin you want will take you hours and hours and hours.  Agreed.  Then what's the issue exactly?  I did get giant slayer btw, but it took me five years to get it. Shield slayer took me considerably longer.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Vayne.8563

[pallas.8150]

Regardless of what they SAY the game is about, GW2 is one of the GRINDIEST games I've ever played. Like, ever.

[Cuks.8241]

7 minutes ago, pallas.8150 said:

Regardless of what they SAY the game is about, GW2 is one of the GRINDIEST games I've ever played. Like, ever.

Yeah but only the grind you took it on yourself. Content as in game modes, areas are not locked behind grind. The grind is pretty much for non essentials and this will always be the case. Repeatable gameplay is always the case in such games, gw2 just doesnt require it to progress through the main modes. Exotics are super cheap, you can get them completely no grind, you can do various different activities to get them. With this you can tackle almost any pve content. WvW is similar. pvp is also completely open to anyone. There are no artificial gates locked behind grind. Offcourse I consider achievemnts non essential.

People also abuse the word grind a lot here. Grind is repeating same task over and over again. Failing a task over and over is not grind - as in not killing a monster, failing a mission.

[pallas.8150]

I'm not abusing the word - GW2 is grindy. It's not even valid to debate. 

[SatyricL.2784]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

So an achievement might take a long time? Is that your argument. Your original argument is that they don't drop at all.

Ok, so you really are just trolling to avoid admitting you were wrong, at this point.  No ones that oblivious on accident.😂

Since you are back to making things up, feel free to quote where I said "mackerel don't drop at all".

Edited March 13, 2022 by Harrada.8041

[itspomf.9523]

On 3/12/2022 at 2:28 AM, Harrada.8041 said:

You sure nailed it with fishing and mackerel requirements.

Didn't cross anyones mind that this might be a really good bait to add as a reward for fishing related events to both remove the insanely frustrating and boring grind if trying to farm mackerel and simultaneously make these events worth doing? I have put maybe 20 hours into fishing, and have only seen a lost bait cage twice. Got a total of 50 mackerel from them, maybe 10-15 from random catches in that time. Between that and trying my best to be available during one of the 5 minute windows that mackerel are more common, I have probably had a total of 70-75 mackerel.

With those 70-75 mackerel, I have not managed to catch a single fish that requires mackerel inside their required time of day. Every single map I have completed is only complete because there is no mackerel fish required on that map. I'm now at the point where I am skipping any map with a mackerel req fish, because its become clear that its a waste of time. Please. Add Mackerel rewards or a vender, for god sake.

 

I'm feeling a lot better about not getting the expansion (or progressing the story much) if this is how bad the grind has become.  I'm still not done with Skyscale, and that was the most miserable content I've ever worked on in this game.

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Yeah but only the grind you took it on yourself. Content as in game modes, areas are not locked behind grind. The grind is pretty much for non essentials and this will always be the case. Repeatable gameplay is always the case in such games, gw2 just doesnt require it to progress through the main modes. Exotics are super cheap, you can get them completely no grind, you can do various different activities to get them. With this you can tackle almost any pve content. WvW is similar. pvp is also completely open to anyone. There are no artificial gates locked behind grind. Offcourse I consider achievemnts non essential.

People also abuse the word grind a lot here. Grind is repeating same task over and over again. Failing a task over and over is not grind - as in not killing a monster, failing a mission.

The non essential argument is silly because when you take it to its conclusion, playing video games in general is non essential, so grinding doesn't actually exist because it's all optional. The reality is, this game like so many others, is designed to push you to do certain things in a time-consuming and repetitive way to earn rewards that are designed to be as desirable as possible, so you'll have a reason to keep logging in. With some of it, you can try to trick yourself into thinking it's not a grind by mixing up what you spend your time on, but certain repeating themes are unavoidable and will become evident if you are chasing a long-term goal: go here, complete events (or in PvP/WvW's case, take the objectives, fight the red dots), gather currency, open chests, repeat until you get what you wanted or burn out.

Of course this is where some will say, like your silliness about "non essential" that you don't have to play the game that way. And you are not wrong, but again, the game is designed to get you to play that way to a certain extent so you'll keep logging in.

[Freya.9075]

Gw2 might be grindy, but it’s the right kind of grind they give you. It’s optional and you can choose to grind for something or not. It won’t affect your gameplay like other games that makes you grind for weeks or months for new gear to even be able to play endgame content, and then take it all away as cycle repeats. 
 

What do you suggest they give instead of rewards that takes some effort to get? Why would ppl play the game if they don’t get rewarded for playing said content? 

[Cuks.8241]

7 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

The non essential argument is silly because when you take it to its conclusion, playing video games in general is non essential, so grinding doesn't actually exist because it's all optional. The reality is, this game like so many others, is designed to push you to do certain things in a time-consuming and repetitive way to earn rewards that are designed to be as desirable as possible, so you'll have a reason to keep logging in. With some of it, you can try to trick yourself into thinking it's not a grind by mixing up what you spend your time on, but certain repeating themes are unavoidable and will become evident if you are chasing a long-term goal: go here, complete events (or in PvP/WvW's case, take the objectives, fight the red dots), gather currency, open chests, repeat until you get what you wanted or burn out.

Of course this is where some will say, like your silliness about "non essential" that you don't have to play the game that way. And you are not wrong, but again, the game is designed to get you to play that way to a certain extent so you'll keep logging in.

Then all games are grind. Playing = grind. 

I play basketball. So by your definition Im grinding basketball because Ive been doing the same thing for 25 years. 

[Cyninja.2954]

So, there is grind involved for not mandatory and purely optional content. Not as big a revelation as some might think.

 

Does not in any way prove that the goalpost or original manifesto was abandoned.

 

How is this thread an ongoing discussion? https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

was very clear in clarifying the meaning of the original claim. That's literally Collin, back when he was game director (before leaving and returning), coming and explaining that the "no grind" promise was in relation to gear grind and repetiveness of combat. Feel free to read it if you still had trouble to understand the meaning of the trailer. He even goes out of his way to mention optional content and how some of it falls under the definition of grind, and that is acceptable to the developers because it is optional and not covered by their promise of accessibility.

 

So with that out of the way, let's summarizes:

1. The original manifesto has nothing to do with this and once again is being used out of context

 

2. Yes, there are very grindy OPTIONAL achievements. Always have been and as the game progresses in age, more are added while some older ones can become less grindy (giant slayer, legendary gear, Bioluminescent collection, to name a few)

 

3. If someone objects to optional grind, that is their right. It was never promised that there would be nothing to grind towards.

 

There done.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Rasimir.6239]

11 hours ago, Harrada.8041 said:

Or do you have another RNG collection to compare it to that you will ignore all the other means of acquiring?

How about 30+ vinewrath kills for the two carapace coat boxes needed for the luminescent coat collection (at a time when the vinewrath event was far from a guaranteed kill)?

 

How about killing dozends upon dozends of smokescales for hours without a drop of the pristine smoke claw for the Dark Harvest collection?

 

How about spending countless hours killing jade constructs in Bloodstone Fen without the drop needed for the Aurora collection?

 

Those are just a few examples of collections where I've been unlucky with rng. There are plenty others in game, all the way back to the core game.

 

rng is rng. It's been a part of this game since forever. In most cases of account-bound rng items the chances are decent enough that you get the stuff on the side, without much (or any) grind. Ignore the achievement, just fish whenever and wherever you feel like it, and mackarels will accumulate.

[SatyricL.2784]

1 hour ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

How about 30+ vinewrath kills for the two carapace coat boxes needed for the luminescent coat collection (at a time when the vinewrath event was far from a guaranteed kill)

Failing an event is not RNG. Thats just lack of group coordination and knowledge needed to succeed it, so I won't touch this one.

As for the others, I already stated I am perfectly fine with the fish collections having RNG. All those fish have different requirements for catching them. Different time, different location, different bait. That keeps it interesting.

What I am not fine with is tirelessly grinding for weeks of extremely unengaging gameplay for hundreds of the same fish under the same circumstances over and over and over. And thats only so I can actually attempt to catch the fish needed for the collection.

Both of the examples you listed, I myself completed within minutes, rather than hours, so I can't relate to your experience. But given your hours of grinding something that was obviously not intended to take hours, considering the average players experience with collecting them, you are okay with something literally designed to be a mundane grind for days/weeks?

Especially considering they had the perfect opportunity to remove the mundaneness by adding them as rewards for the fishing events? (fish tourny and leviathan) They could have added daily rewards to those events, like 10-15 mackerel, and it still would take days to do the collection, but it would have completely removed the issue.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Harrada.8041

[Rasimir.6239]

18 minutes ago, Harrada.8041 said:

Failing an event is not RNG. Thats just lack of group coordination and knowledge needed to succeed it, so I won't touch this one.

That was 30+ wins in addition to numerous faild tries for me. A friend of mine even made it to more than 50 wins before she dropped her 2nd coat box. Another friend got two boxes dropped in the first two kills (in addition to the guaranteed one). That's rng for you, there's always outliers in all directions.

 

Of course I especially remember those that I had bad drop luck, not the ones that dropped easily. On the other hand I've already gotten a bunch of mackarels without even trying, and if it hadn't been for this post I probably wouldn't even have realized it.

 

24 minutes ago, Harrada.8041 said:

But given your hours of grinding something that was obviously not intended to take hours, considering the average players experience with collecting them, you are okay with something literally designed to be a mundane grind for days/weeks?

We seem to have a very different approach to this kind of content. I don't grind in this game. If I have a goal, I keep it in mind, and if I happen to be in the vincinity of an area that helps me toward that goal with nothing better to do, then I'll have a go at it until I don't enjoy myself any more, then go do something else. For the last nine years this approach has served me well with enjoying the game and getting to all the goals I set my eyes on (although taking a couple of years for some of them probably isn't everyone's cup of tea).

[SatyricL.2784]

17 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

That was 30+ wins in addition to numerous faild tries for me. A friend of mine even made it to more than 50 wins before she dropped her 2nd coat box. Another friend got two boxes dropped in the first two kills (in addition to the guaranteed one). That's rng for you, there's always outliers in all directions.

Ah, sorry, I misread this initially.

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Then all games are grind. Playing = grind. 

I play basketball. So by your definition Im grinding basketball because Ive been doing the same thing for 25 years. 

If you were playing basketball for 2 hours a day or whatever, for 4 months, so you could earn a special golden painted basketball then yes. Otherwise, your goofy attempt at catching me out is bunk and has missed the point.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

16 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

I did a bit of research and found a post (quoted above) addressing this "issue" on what looks to be an archive of the old forums.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

I knew there was a statement..somewhere...I spent some time looking for it; so glad you found it and posted it.  Thanks.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I don't know what the rush is to complete achievements.  Why they need to be able to be achieved within a few hours/days.  If everything just took an hour or two, it seems there would be a lot more cries of boredom and calls for faster content releases.

What exactly is the reward that has someone(s) so up in arms about?  It must be very special; I will have to look it up.

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

How about 30+ vinewrath kills for the two carapace coat boxes needed for the luminescent coat collection (at a time when the vinewrath event was far from a guaranteed kill)?

 

How about killing dozends upon dozends of smokescales for hours without a drop of the pristine smoke claw for the Dark Harvest collection?

 

How about spending countless hours killing jade constructs in Bloodstone Fen without the drop needed for the Aurora collection?

 

Those are just a few examples of collections where I've been unlucky with rng. There are plenty others in game, all the way back to the core game.

 

rng is rng. It's been a part of this game since forever. In most cases of account-bound rng items the chances are decent enough that you get the stuff on the side, without much (or any) grind. Ignore the achievement, just fish whenever and wherever you feel like it, and mackarels will accumulate.

None of these examples are required to complete content.  They are optional.  To me, this does not define grind.

[Labjax.2465]

17 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

I did a bit of research and found a post (quoted above) addressing this "issue" on what looks to be an archive of the old forums.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

So basically, it was BS marketing from the start; they were always just trying to play a jedi mind trick and make grind not feel or look like grind while still having grind (have their cake and eat it too, in other words... get the benefits of standard MMO design to keep people in game while pretending like that's not what they're doing). Not too surprising, as overcoming the grind problem in MMOs and how it ties into player retention is a much deeper problem than putting some makeup on it.

[Zok.4956]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:32 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Again, the "no grind" in theboriginal manifesto is far to often used by players in the context of:"I want this for less work, you promised", which was never the intent or design.

I am going to repeat:"No grind" was NEVER a core value of the game or even franchise. GW1 before GW2 was insanely grindy, for anything past simple gear acquisition and players were fine with it. GW2 continued this approach.

"It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren't about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment."

I think, there is a lot of misunderstanding. "No Grind" does not mean "I get everything without playing the game". I just does mean that players, that want a "future fun reward" can choose the path ("fun from moment to moment") they like the most.

So "grinding" in GW2 means repeating something over-and-over that is NOT "fun from moment to moment" for some "future fun reward" without having an alternative path that is fun.

For example: Thats why players can get a lot more mastery points than they need for completing all masteries, so they can choose to get the mastery points they like.

Example: If I like playing fractals and because of that I do it all the time and get ascended loot/gear it is not grinding. But if I just go into fractals because I want some ascended loot/gear etc. from fractals and I do not like fractals, it is grinding.

So: If players like fishing in GW2, they fish because it is fun. And doing what they like they are on a fun path for some "future fun reward". Thats not grinding. But if players just want "some future fun reward" but don't like fishing, it is, in a way, grinding.  And because of this, GW2 offers often an alternative path for the "future fun reward": Buy items, that you do not want to farm yourself in the trading post and play the content you like to get the gold for that.

P.S. Yes, sometimes the game deviates from it core design philosophies. It doesn't mean it should in the future.
P.P.S. I don't know if you can buy all the fish in the trading post. I haven't really looked into fishing a lot.

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

If you were playing basketball for 2 hours a day or whatever, for 4 months, so you could earn a special golden painted basketball then yes. Otherwise, your goofy attempt at catching me out is bunk and has missed the point.

Well we get a trophy if we win the league. 

I play gw2 for the same reason as I play basketball. I play wvw to win the fight together with my teammates. Same with pvp. I play pve encouters to learn and beat them. 

There is no grinding required to take part in these activities. And I think that is the point. 

Sure you can grind for some achievement, reward. But that for me is non essential and up to me. None of these gate me from participate in various modes, encounters. 

[Labjax.2465]

3 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Well we get a trophy if we win the league. 

I play gw2 for the same reason as I play basketball. I play wvw to win the fight together with my teammates. Same with pvp. I play pve encouters to learn and beat them. 

There is no grinding required to take part in these activities. And I think that is the point. 

Sure you can grind for some achievement, reward. But that for me is non essential and up to me. None of these gate me from participate in various modes, encounters. 

Good for you. Doesn't change what I said about how these games are designed. You are one of the lucky ones who gets to enjoy the content without feeling pushed into grinding.

[Qpla.4729]

What is even the point of this thread? You want the title for free? The title loses all meaning if you get it for no effort at all.

And besides, once you start fishing, you'll realize mackerel are the least of your worries.