Balthazar did nothing wrong

[Kalavier.1097]

6 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Well didn't the book hint that they maybe are not exactly pursued the goal of getting rid of joko? As in, actually making sure that nothing happens to joko in predictable future?

Anyway it is not like Joko didn't threaten rest of tyria which could be sort of wake up call for Shadows, and not like anyone could predict that Commander is going to gather primeval ghosts, corsairs, and forgot who else was in that "alliance".... hippie charrs? Rip a tear in reality to portal those troops from Tomb of Primeval Kings, besieges Joko in the heart of his domains, and then actually pulls off that everyone else was failing at - actually disposes the lich.

Imagine you are order of spies and manipulators that started turning evil-ish, and only pretend to fight against the opressing dictator, while starting getting comfy with actually not really going for it, and then some random outlander portals in army to the middle of the country, infiltrates gandara the moon fortress, and just flat out kills that dictator. What do you do? of course you adapt to this new weird situation and try to forge something best for yourself out of it - which order of shadows actually did.

 

That was how I remember reading it. They were very... "status quo". Sometimes they'd help the sunspears bust free of trouble and escape. Other times they'd sabotage sunspears/rebels causing them to die or lose the objective.

They were manipulating kitten behind the scenes, and then two warring armies invaded and Joko suddenly went poof. And then more outsiders, including Whispers came back in. (The only real dropped plot point is the implication there is some original style order of whispers enclaves in Kourna/southern Elona, separate from the Shadows).

 

And yep. They adapted quickly. Or quickly and quietly purged themselves of the bad ones when Joko was actually killed for good. Though in general it seems they rally behind Kossan (even if he's not the highest ranking member) as a hero figure. And well, he's got Koss to look up to now. The Status quo got kittened up hard, but Elona actually emerged from it without totally falling apart (which was their big goal).

 

13 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I haven't ever got into the raids in the way that could allow me to actually get the story of it, my whole career in it was two attempts at wing 1, learning session of Vale Guardian, then next run that went up to sabetha but was consistently failing her dps check untill disbanding, and well I was focusing rather on learning mechanics more than what is the story supposed to be there so...

I wouldn't know 😉

 

I sadly never got to truly raid either, just doing the Vale Guardian and then the escort of.. the second wing/path whatever? But I had read bits of the lore for some of them. I recall the first section was hit by a big storm immediately after Mordremoth died. And was actually the source of Heart of Thorns only taking place over what... a few weeks? Because of dated journals mentioned the Pact fleet's destruction and the death of the dragon.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

While that would be a fair point, we also observed 2 deaths of elder dragons without any absorption mechanisms in place. Nothing happens when Zhaitan dies. Almost nothing happens when Mordremoth dies. Both their magics got dispensed through ley network and absorbed by other elder dragons literally across the world.

I would disagree.

In Season 2, it's established that Zhaitan's magic entering the ley-lines wasn't a good thing, and this expanded more and more later on. The thing is just one or two dragons dying wasn't innately horrible. It was when three were. But even then, "nothing happens when Zhaitan dies" isn't true; it's just that nothing immediately observable happened. When Zhaitan died, three things happened as we later learned:

1. The other Elder Dragons gained death magic, exacerbating their torment.
2. The Bloodstones grew due to absorbing magic.
3. The Jade Sea changed into a toxic bright green color.

All this happened because there was no replacement ready, and no Aurene (or Aurene-like being) to help channel the flow of magic.

#1 and 2 happened again with Mordremoth's death. But didn't happen with Kralkatorrik's death (well, as far as we know for #2; and #1 did happen but not nearly as much).

13 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Honestly, Aurene never even needed to be present for any of the ED killings. We could just probably plug her into some leyline nexus and have her watch netflix or something. All 3 times she pokemoned into a more adult state was just due to massive amounts of magic consumed, so there was never an explicit reason to even carry her around. Other than abusing Kralk specific weakness, of course. She'd still grow into an elder dragon one way or the other.

If that was true, Glint would have become an Elder Dragon already. Or Vlast. Glint easily could have sat on a ley-nexus for the past 3,000 years. Given Anet's pendency for making any site of story significant a ley-line hub, she probably was. Vlast too, for the past 200 years, given Kesho likely was seeing how Tarir was.

Neither of them became Elder Dragons. Why? because they didn't absorb an Elder Dragon's magic upon their death.

13 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

As for elder dragons sharing magic instead of hoarding it - I'm pretty sure all of them shared it, a lot. They had numerous champions, armies of corrupted, and whole sections of world terraformed. How is it different from Aurene branding Crystal bloom members? I mean, sure, we don't call it dragon corruption. Still the same thing though.

Corruption is exactly what hoarding magic means. Corruption is the act of consuming magic, twisting it into their dragon domain, and giving a portion of it back. Only the dragon champions have a significant amount of magic in them, and they're rare. The corrupted landscape and the mindless grunts lack magic as established in the Order of Whispers PS.

As for Aurene, she doesn't brand Crystal Bloom members; she only bonded with the Commander and Caithe alone, and filters the magic into the world without corrupting it. And bonding != corruption, as there's no stealing of magic or will happening, but merely gifting magic instead.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Slowpokeking.8720]

16 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Balthazar had wants and needs that were not completely made clear during the story - unless you want to go by the theory that it's simply his "nature" to wage war as a vessel for divine magic, like the Elder Dragon personalities also developed out of birth in spite of being "mindless as Nature" according to Soo-Won.

 

We don't know the extent to which the Elder Dragons were the reason for him to be stripped of his godhood. The gods, including Kormir, simply up and left humanity to its fate, which doesn't make sense regardless of her justification that they could not clash against the Elder Dragons (they could not communicate directly to humans either? Did they take any humans at all to colonize a new world?). Even worse, they left their domains even though that was long before Kralkatorrik learned how to consume the Mists. Grenth to mention just one left the Underworld allowing Dhuum to become free. So we really got no proper motivation behind the gods' behavior towards their subjects other than the writers convoluted a nuclear winter plot device in order to write off human gods. With that said, if they ever do give proper justification it would have to play into Balthazar's intentions as well, as he literally says Tyria is of little concern compared to how much he wanted to wage war elsewhere (I assume against the other gods, but there might be something even beyond that).

True, even if they couldn't fight the dragons, they could have given a lot of help and advice.

 

The whole thing made no sense at all.

[Tyson.5160]

On 3/22/2022 at 11:09 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except Soo-Won was hording magic, and not sharing it.

Making a bond with Kuunavang =/= sharing magic, no more then an Elder Dragon "corrupting" anything into a minion is sharing their magic in the true sense. It just means she got a minion. She didn't mind control/mentally dominate Kuunavang, but there is nothing to suggest she ever gave Kuunavang any powers via magic sharing like Aurene has with the Commander via the Crystal Champion, or Dragon Slayer, mastery lines(among other things)

 

Wasn’t Kuunavang’s ability to change into human form with water, an ability that Soo-Won gave her?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Wasn’t Kuunavang’s ability to change into human form with water, an ability that Soo-Won gave her?

Nope. Its something any Saltspray can do with training

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kuunavang#cite_note-Fallout-11

Quote

<Character name>: How are you able to take human form?

Kuunavang: I'm...not certain I can explain it. I become like water, and water can take many forms.

Kuunavang: We saltsprays taught ourselves many tricks over the years. This one is not...easy for us. But it is certainly useful.

Kuunavang: There are times when it's easier to protect if you can blend in among those you are protecting. Live their lives. [...]

Kuunavang: The empress knew my identity, as did her father before her, and his father before him. [...]

Kuunavang: I felt it when she woke. All those of the sea did—a presence powerful enough to drive back the shadows in the depths.

Kuunavang: But it was not until Zhaitan that I sought her out. An act of desperation to save what was left of a land I loved. [...]

Kuunavang: My bond with her is much like yours with Aurene. Or perhaps more like your friend Caithe's. I feel her, but she doesn't control me.

 

[Tyson.5160]

26 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Nope. Its something any Saltspray can do with training

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kuunavang#cite_note-Fallout-11

 

Weird, so the only power Kuunavang got from Soo-Won was telepathy and her scales being blue.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Weird, so the only power Kuunavang got from Soo-Won was telepathy and her scales being blue.

Pretty much.

[Valisha.8650]

Balthazar and  Joko were the most based characters in this game, wish I could join them.

[Mithrilos.8036]

So Balthazar is Belkan ?