I want to like virtuoso but it has 0 utility

[Ombras.2853]

14 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Ok so lets talk about raid compositions, in a typical raid what would be your combined team that provides ALL the boons that Virtuoso needs to perform optimal golem benchmark dps?

Fact that boon output went from 10 to 5.

See? You don’t even have a clue about the topic, yet you feel the urge to replicate.

Golem benchmarks are absolutely accurate for raids, because they take into account exactly the conditions necessary for a decent to good group (even a pug) to accomplish those numbers.

The boons you need are exactly the ones I mentioned. Alac (always one per sub), Quick (always one per sub), 25 stacks of vulnerability (that will be provided by several classes, but that you don’t need, since you auto generate those - oh right, Virtuoso cannot cuz it’s just a stupid dps spec, ah, no). Let’s say one between having a BS and a Ranger in the 10 men party, in addiction?

Again, stop talking about things you don’t have a clue about.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Ombras.2853

[Ombras.2853]

3 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Yeah yeah yeah, you don't want Mesmer nerfed you just keep talking about how 'broken' it is and get upset when people say it should have the build options other elite specs get.

Excuse me?

Once again, you’re missing the point completely.

But since you’re unable to make any real criticism and only talk by using vague and abstract concepts, I guess that’s it.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

See? You don’t even have a clue about the topic, yet you feel the urge to replicate.

Golem benchmarks are absolutely accurate for raids, because they take into account exactly the conditions necessary for a decent to good group (even a pug) to accomplish those numbers.

The boons you need are exactly the ones I mentioned. Alac (always one per sub), Quick (always one per sub), 25 stacks of vulnerability (that will be provided by several classes, but that you don’t need, since you auto generate those - oh right, Virtuoso cannot cuz it’s just a stupid dps spec, ah, no).

Again, stop talking about things you don’t have a clue about.

You do realize that many praises towards Virtuoso's high dps is based off of golem benchmarks. You should probably read the other threads before coming to this specific one to make comments about PvE. Again I asked you a simple question what is the raid composition as in what class would you bring in a general raid encounter excluding more specific ones.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Ombras.2853]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

You do realize that many praises towards Virtuoso's high dps is based off of golem benchmarks. You should probably read the other threads before coming to this specific one to make comments about PvE. Again I asked you a simple question what is the raid composition as in what class would you bring in a general raid encounter excluding more specific ones.

Virtuoso’s dps is high for any pve end-game mode. This is a fact. And (lol) I’m not asking for nerfs, i believe it’s a top dog in that specific context at the moment, but not in terms of being overpowered. The same way I’m not asking to nerf Scourge (another OP dps class).

Why are you even asking me about a raid composition when I literally answered you like ten posts above.

[Levetty.1279]

2 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Excuse me?

Once again, you’re missing the point completely.

But since you’re unable to make any real criticism and only talk by using vague and abstract concepts, I guess that’s it.

Lots of people have made valid criticisms. You are just the standard troll who doesn't want to read any of them, lies and tries to get Mesmer nerfed. We've been dealing with your sort since the game launched, you are not special or unique.

 

But please tell me how you reconcile you claiming you don't hate Mesmer and even want Virtuoso to be buffed in PvP with this tantrum you are throwing because people are saying it should have the build options other elite specs get.

[Ombras.2853]

1 minute ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Lots of people have made valid criticisms. You are just the standard troll who doesn't want to read any of them, lies and tries to get Mesmer nerfed. We've been dealing with your sort since the game launched, you are not special or unique.

 

But please tell me how you reconcile you claiming you don't hate Mesmer and even want Virtuoso to be buffed in PvP with this tantrum you are throwing because people are saying it should have the build options other elite specs get.

I understand that you have to prove your point even if you fail at making it clear, but logic doesn’t work like that. By the way, I’m playing this game since season 2 and I spent almost the entirely of my time playing Mesmer, fighting for Mesmers, complaining about the stupid nerfs we faced in multiple occasions, throwing a tantrum at how devs completely ignored a lot of our feedback between the beta and the launch of EOD regarding Virtuoso.

But I don’t have to become a troll the way you are doing right now. And start being respectful instead of claiming stuff which I never stated nor thought.

[Levetty.1279]

2 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

I understand that you have to prove your point even if you fail at making it clear, but logic doesn’t work like that. By the way, I’m playing this game since season 2 and I spent almost the entirely of my time playing Mesmer, fighting for Mesmers, complaining about the stupid nerfs we faced in multiple occasions, throwing a tantrum at how devs completely ignored a lot of our feedback between the beta and the launch of EOD regarding Virtuoso.

But I don’t have to become a troll the way you are doing right now. And start being respectful instead of claiming stuff which I never stated nor thought.

Answer the question, how do you reconcile you claiming you don't hate Mesmer and even want Virtuoso to be buffed in PvP with this tantrum you are throwing because people are saying it should have the build options other elite specs get and the your claims that Virtuoso is OP?

Edited March 29, 2022 by Levetty.1279

[Ombras.2853]

1 minute ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Answer the question, how do you reconcile you claiming you don't hate Mesmer and even want Virtuoso to be buffed in PvP with this tantrum you are throwing because people are saying it should have the build options other elite specs get and the your claims that Virtuoso is OP?

Can you realize for a single second that I am specifically talking of pve endgame, as I am saying in almost every post since it seems someone in there is highly susceptible? Same can be said about claiming that Virtuoso is OP (wtf? Just reading posts doesn’t work anymore, now?).

[Levetty.1279]

2 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Can you realize for a single second that I am specifically talking of pve endgame, as I am saying in almost every post since it seems someone in there is highly susceptible? Same can be said about claiming that Virtuoso is OP (wtf? Just reading posts doesn’t work anymore, now?).

Yes and I am saying that Virtuoso should have the build options that other elite specs get. If Virtuoso had utility, boons or just anything added to it to make it an actual elite spec it would also have access to that in PvP and might actually be able to do something there.

 

If you are going to try and claim you never called Virtuoso broken you should at least go back and edit your post, just a tip so you don't get caught in your lies.

 

Now answer the question, how do you reconcile you claiming you don't hate Mesmer and even want Virtuoso to be buffed in PvP with this tantrum you are throwing because people are saying it should have the build options other elite specs get and the your claims that Virtuoso is OP?

[Ombras.2853]

So, in short, you’re asking to give Virtuoso the possibility of giving boons to allies? Like Chrono or Mirage? Well. Given that a healing spec is the only thing we were lacking, at the very best we could have had that. But it was made to be a dps spec, so what’s even the point of complaining about it? We already knew what was the focus of Virtuoso. We can obviously talk about the flaws in the final product (which are frigging obvious), but… that’s that?

 

Calling Virtuoso OP *where* exactly? Feel free to explain me, I’m waiting. I guess I’ll wait for a long time. And I see you still refuse to use arguments, only persisting in parroting everything I say for the sake of doing it. It’s quite clear who between us has issues when talking about the topic.

[Ombras.2853]

Yes? We were talking about the dps bar, and it’s true? Do you realize it has the best dps bar out of ALL classes? But I even said that it shouldn’t be nerfed, cuz it does what it has been created for. So, in the end, you’re telling me you agree with me but didn’t understand anything I said so far? Nice.

But I do understand that pulling a few words out of a conversation and put them elsewhere make you feel righteous. If you’re content with that much, who am I to stop you.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Ombras.2853

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Yes? We were talking about the dps bar, and it’s true? Do you realize it has the best dps bar out of ALL classes? But I even said that it shouldn’t be nerfed, cuz it does what it has been created for. So, in the end, you’re telling me you agree with me but didn’t understand anything I said so far? Nice.

But I do understand that pulling a few words out of a conversation and put them elsewhere make you feel righteous. If you’re content with that much, who am I to stop you.

but u actively ignore what Personal DPS v Raid DPS Is.

Once again

if virtuoso does 41k DPS on a Boss

and Quickness harbinger did 31k DPS but provided Quickness to 4 Other players, say that Quickness added 3k DPS to each of those 4 Players

that means harbinger achieved 31k Personal DPS, While providing 12k Raid DPS Value so its RDPS + PDPS = 44k DPS.

While Virtuoso held 41k DPS With 0 RDPS, which means its RDPS + PDPS = 41k DPS.

So youre Raid has Netted a higher Raid Total DPS by Replacing your virtuoso With a Harbinger. No ones saying it Doesnt do good DPS. people are Saying, theres no place in the game for a Specc to only do DPS due tto how high the Impact on RDPS boons actually currently hold.

your actively pushing virtuoso viability, by Ignoring Information which Proves this, you cannot Read a DPS Meter and go "hurrdurr dat one best dat one at the top". im sorry, but DPS Metrics go MUCH MUCH Deeper.

to accurately state what brings the highest DPS Value

you need its Personal DPS, its CC DPS and its Boon DPS Per player you will then need to add all of this up to get a Outcome on the actual Raid DPS.

Personal DPS Means NOTHING. Raid dps means EVERYTHING. in No game Would u build Meta Raid comps off the back of Personal  DPS Scores.

Does that mean "oh lets go make it do 50k DPS" No. but it doesnt mean its amazing either. it brings a Fully ranged build, except it does need some fixs.

Mental Focus being one of them, whats the point in a 1200 Range weapon.. if ur gonna give it bonuses to sit in 600 range. Also.. it needs to be able to self - apply 100% Fury uptime.

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

but u actively ignore what Personal DPS v Raid DPS Is.

Once again

if virtuoso does 41k DPS on a Boss

and Quickness harbinger did 31k DPS but provided Quickness to 4 Other players, say that Quickness added 3k DPS to each of those 4 Players

that means harbinger achieved 31k Personal DPS, While providing 12k Raid DPS Value so its RDPS + PDPS = 44k DPS.

While Virtuoso held 41k DPS With 0 RDPS, which means its RDPS + PDPS = 41k DPS.

So youre Raid has Netted a higher Raid Total DPS by Replacing your virtuoso With a Harbinger. No ones saying it Doesnt do good DPS. people are Saying, theres no place in the game for a Specc to only do DPS due tto how high the Impact on RDPS boons actually currently hold.

your actively pushing virtuoso viability, by Ignoring Information which Proves this, you cannot Read a DPS Meter and go "hurrdurr dat one best dat one at the top". im sorry, but DPS Metrics go MUCH MUCH Deeper.

to accurately state what brings the highest DPS Value

you need its Personal DPS, its CC DPS and its Boon DPS Per player you will then need to add all of this up to get a Outcome on the actual Raid DPS.

Personal DPS Means NOTHING. Raid dps means EVERYTHING. in No game Would u build Meta Raid comps off the back of Personal  DPS Scores.

Does that mean "oh lets go make it do 50k DPS" No. but it doesnt mean its amazing either. it brings a Fully ranged build, except it does need some fixs.

Mental Focus being one of them, whats the point in a 1200 Range weapon.. if ur gonna give it bonuses to sit in 600 range. Also.. it needs to be able to self - apply 100% Fury uptime.

 

Truth be told FFXIV is so much better at letting people understand this concept. 

Selfish DPS are always top dps by a margin.

DPS that provides raid wide atk % buff is lower then selfish dps.

DPS that provides raid wide atk % and damage mitigation is the lowest dps. 

The DPS difference is by the 7-8% difference in each tier which is pretty significant margin. 

[Ombras.2853]

4 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

but u actively ignore what Personal DPS v Raid DPS Is.

Once again

if virtuoso does 41k DPS on a Boss

and Quickness harbinger did 31k DPS but provided Quickness to 4 Other players, say that Quickness added 3k DPS to each of those 4 Players

that means harbinger achieved 31k Personal DPS, While providing 12k Raid DPS Value so its RDPS + PDPS = 44k DPS.

While Virtuoso held 41k DPS With 0 RDPS, which means its RDPS + PDPS = 41k DPS.

So youre Raid has Netted a higher Raid Total DPS by Replacing your virtuoso With a Harbinger.

 

Now you guys are doing this on purpose.

This is clearly the reasoning of someone who doesn’t play this kind of content, since (as I explained multiple times, but yes, keep completely ignore it) you don’t need to overlap boons (it’s USELESS) and you need 3-4 selfish dps per squad regardless in team composition.

If you already have a quickness provider in your sub, you should absolutely NOT play another one. What is difficult to understand about this? Seriously.

 

 

[Puck.3697]

20 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Now you guys are doing this on purpose.

This is clearly the reasoning of someone who doesn’t play this kind of content, since (as I explained multiple times, but yes, keep completely ignore it) you don’t need to overlap boons (it’s USELESS) and you need 3-4 selfish dps per squad regardless in team composition.

If you already have a quickness provider in your sub, you should absolutely NOT play another one. What is difficult to understand about this? Seriously.

 

 

 

Because again you ignore HARD evidence of how untruthful this is.

Lets Break this down.

Group one

you need a Alacrity Provider

you need a banner Provider

a Might+Fury+Spirit Provider

Protection+Aegis+Stability provider.

a Healer.

In Group two

you need a alacrity provider

you need a banner provider

a Might+Fury+Spirit Provider

a Protection+Aegis+Stability provider

a Healer.

Where are you slottng a Pure DPS In. lets really break this down. What format are u coming up with where u have Space for pure DPS And are at risk of overlapping boons 3 or 4 selfish dps? U forgotten 5man boons now?

you need

2x Alacrity

2x Quickness

2x Banners

2x Spirits

2x Aegis, Protection, Stability

2x Healers

2x Fury / Might

you can Role compress sure but to make 4 spots of Pure DPS LOL No.

2x Warriors, 2x Mechanists, 2x Harbingers 2x Firebrands and u've filled 8/10 up instantly. and this group dont even provide fury or Might. which may i add Virtuoso cannot Function without Fury uptime. so POOF. goes your slot lol.

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[LucianDK.8615]

Is banners also 5man only now?

[Puck.3697]

Just now, LucianDK.8615 said:

Is banners also 5man only now?

well not yet. but as of the rework they're going to be as confirmed.

but considering those changes are coming in 3 weeks odd, its not really a Span of time to take into consideration realistically.

They may get compressed into Quickness Role. but its still not opening up 4 SLots of  Selfish DPS when u consider quite how many boons u gotta cater the group to, not to mention for Virtuoso to work you need someone to provide it Fury. which means Likelyhood is Boon Chrono will be most defintly wanted. or  something alike this.

Virtuoso being completely unable to provide itself Fury is a HUGE hinderence on its Spot in a Raid enviroment given this.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Ombras.2853]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

 

Where are you slottng a Pure DPS In. lets really break this down. What format are u coming up with where u have Space for pure DPS And are at risk of overlapping boons

 

 

Just for completeness sake: you are ignoring the fact that several of the boons you are talking about (might, fury, spirits etc) are shared by the healer in your subgroup. Other than considering how most groups have 1+ classes that covers more than one role (I used the example of HFB - quick aegis heal, HMech - heal alac and all other defensive boons). You always have 3-4 pure dps in any group composition, this is not something you can possibly argue about. And, of course, there is specific niche content that makes you rethink your group, but in 99% of pve endgame it’s like I’m writing above.

[LucianDK.8615]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

well not yet. but as of the rework they're going to be as confirmed.

but considering those changes are coming in 3 weeks odd, its not really a Span of time to take into consideration realistically.

They may get compressed into Quickness Role. but its still not opening up 4 SLots of  Selfish DPS when u consider quite how many boons u gotta cater the group to, not to mention for Virtuoso to work you need someone to provide it Fury. which means Likelyhood is Boon Chrono will be most defintly wanted. or  something alike this.

Virtuoso being completely unable to provide itself Fury is a HUGE hinderence on its Spot in a Raid enviroment given this.

I think you meant 3 months.

[Puck.3697]

7 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Just for completeness sake: you are ignoring the fact that several of the boons you are talking about (might, fury, spirits etc) are shared by the healer in your subgroup. Other than considering how most groups have 1+ classes that covers more than one role (I used the example of HFB - quick aegis heal, HMech - heal alac and all other defensive boons). You always have 3-4 pure dps in any group composition, this is not something you can possibly argue about. And, of course, there is specific niche content that makes you rethink your group, but in 99% of pve endgame it’s like I’m writing above.

in a Specific comp Yes.

however Mechinist doesnt provide Fury / Might and Is currently the Prime support to be taken currently. so no, currently the healer isnt handing over those boons. its handing over Alacrity+Barrier+Healing.

if there was this many spots for a Pure DPS you wouldnt of had Ele Screeching for 4 years over Weaver.

both chrono and Mirage are still better options in almost every situation, They will do more Damage then virtuoso does the moment you need to flex into anything such as extra CC or anything.

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Ombras.2853]

If you have Heal Alac Mech as healer, you literally free one slot (it providing boons for two slots) and you have that spot that has been freed to make up for the loss of boons you’d have with, say, Dudu.

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

If you have Heal Alac Mech as healer, you literally free one slot (it providing boons for two slots) and you have that spot that has been freed to make up for the loss of boons you’d have with, say, Dudu.

Yeah.

now you need protection / Aegis / Stability / Might / Quickness / Fury / Spirits / Banners from the others.

[Ombras.2853]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Yeah.

now you need protection / Aegis / Stability / Might / Quickness / Fury / Spirits / Banners from the others.

Aegis is something you want in maybe 2-3 encounters tbh. But even if.

Let’s consider the most basic composition.

S1 - QTank, Alac, Heal, BS, Dps.

S2 - Quick, Alac, Heal, Fb, Dps.

If we have ANY class that provides more than one boon (you made the example of HMech being meta, but I’d say HFB as well), we’d have:

S1 - Mech, Quick, BS, boon dps, Dps

S2 - Mech, Quick, boon dps, Dps, Dps.

Where boon dps can be dps fb for stab and aegis.

Heal mech grants to the party Might, Fury and Regen, I don’t see where “it doesn’t give boons”.

[Nezekan.2671]

29 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Yeah.

now you need protection / Aegis / Stability / Might / Quickness / Fury / Spirits / Banners from the others.

Optimal use of kits provides fury for 5 man as mechanist, and there is some might too, but you might need some help with that to reach 25, which should not be hard. There are quite a bit of half might providers that with you can reach 25. You can also provide stability and cleanse conditions.

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Aegis is something you want in maybe 2-3 encounters tbh. But even if.

Let’s consider the most basic composition.

S1 - QTank, Alac, Heal, BS, Dps.

S2 - Quick, Alac, Heal, Fb, Dps.

If we have ANY class that provides more than one boon (you made the example of HMech being meta, but I’d say HFB as well), we’d have:

S1 - Mech, Quick, BS, boon dps, Dps

S2 - Mech, Quick, boon dps, Dps, Dps.

Where boon dps can be dps fb for stab and aegis.

Heal mech grants to the party Might, Fury and Regen, I don’t see where “it doesn’t give boons”.

It wouldn't manage 25 might alone. Even the above poster states that, didn't know it provided fury through kits however. 

However this is skipping over 

Spotter, which any virtuoso guide will tell you is a MUST HAVE. You will lose a shed ton of DPS. 

Once banners drop to 5 man which is confirmed. Again losing these is a huge DPS hit for virtuoso again. 

The virtuoso to be fully functional at the standards minimum will need

Banners

Spotter

3x assassin pieces

And fury.

100% uptime on all of these, it's a drastic DPS loss for virtuoso to go. So if your gonna build your comp into this druid is basically a must. To ensure that 25 might is stacked where mech could only get half way there. But to also provide spotter for the virtuoso. 

And we go back to one my initial point

Virtuoso can't cater for a single one of its mandatory boons it needs to function properly so will rely on the raid on bringing each of those boons. 

Hence why I said, virtuoso needs a precision stat buff accessible by either traits, or by one of its signets and needs to be able to apply fury to itself. 

It's just far better currently to take a Condi renegade (who does the same DPS with half the boon reliance) or DH (same DPS but only needs resolution which it can once again feed itself) 

Virtuoso outclasses weaver on the bases it has easier accessible sustain through F4 then weaver does where it has to peddle tgorugh attunements to access it's sustain. 

You seem to forget, virtuoso is top by like 400 DPS. Power DH does more DPS then power virt and renegades almost on par. And nekther of these require half the building around virtuoso does. 

Because virtuoso not only has a real hard time capping crit. But it's tied entirely to its mechanics generation rate 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Daddy.8125