I want to like virtuoso but it has 0 utility

[rune.9572]

I don't see why I'd bring it anywhere over chrono, or just other classes altogether that bring both damage and utility. The gameplay loop basically boils down to "kill it before it kills you". At least chrono had utility, here it's just spam damage and pray some random mob doesn't have reflect XD

Even self boon and self cleanse is bad (heal skill is a joke requiring you to face the enemy and actually hit them. lol!), I mean - unless you specc to it, but at that point you may as well play... core mesmer.

Edited March 27, 2022 by rune.9572

[Ombras.2853]

I mean... Since you are talking about Chrono, I guess the post is pve related?

In that case, it’s basically the only field where Virtuoso (as a dps) is actually better than PChrono.

 

It’s useless to talk about “utilities”, you still bring to the table the classic Mesmer skips (Portal + Blink, Feedback) and you either get a better explosive damage (which DOES matter in Fractals, useless to say the opposite) or a WAY better sustain using the condi variant for Raids.

 

Virtuoso’s issues certainly don’t belong in pve.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, rune.9572 said:

I don't see why I'd bring it anywhere over chrono, or just other classes altogether that bring both damage and utility. The gameplay loop basically boils down to "kill it before it kills you". At least chrono had utility, here it's just spam damage and pray some random mob doesn't have reflect XD

Even self boon and self cleanse is bad (heal skill is a joke requiring you to face the enemy and actually hit them. lol!), I mean - unless you specc to it, but at that point you may as well play... core mesmer.

Chrono far more fits with what you are describing since has almost no survivability skill/traits besides phantasmal defender and Continuum Split. I guess you play healer but the cooldowns on everything but Mantras is brutal.

Virtuoso on the other hand is in-between Mirage and Chrono in terms of survivability. It has a damage avoiding skills/traits with aegis and has plenty of healing with Condi Jagged Mind. This is why one of the best builds currently is Condi Inspiration Virtuoso. You heal yourself a whopping 500 HPS while outputting 1k HPS.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Clones + good positioning > aegis in regards to sustain. 

[Mell.4873]

9 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Clones + good positioning > aegis in regards to sustain. 

It doesn't work on everything much like Mirage dodge. I play every Mesmer class and switch between them.

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Virtuoso’s issues certainly don’t belong in pve.

You are right, hopefully they fix them so its worth taking in PvE.

[Puck.3697]

On the bright side we do the role better then weaver atleast. 

From a PvE point of view virtuoso prolly can find a place as a pure DPS, but yeah pretty much it's a role specc only. 

If we want to provide 25 might + alacrity we go alacrity. 

If you wanna provide boons / quickness play boon chrono. 

If you wanna tank chronomancer is there. 

If you wanna Condi / power DPS you go chrono. 

We don't really need another boon provider, we ironically needed a healing support (hence why alot put forward support base bard during concepts) 

I'd imagine our next elite will be healing based though tbh given the fact. 

- virtuoso DPS

- Chrono boons / quickness

- mirage Aegis / Might / alacrity 

The only thing we are missing is a healer now really 

I will say tho: as a selfish DPS, virtuoso needs some self quickness and might generation. 

I think the fix here is, bladesongs apply quickness to self only and psyonics give might when used. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Roda.7468]

I'd say this is my only gripe with virtuoso rn.

I can't play it 'cause every group needs boons!😭

[Ombras.2853]

If you’re playing DPS, you aren’t the one who is appointed to share boons.

Virtuoso as a pure DPS right now is on the verge of being broken (we are talking about pve, yes?).

It does high damage AND has high sustain, plus it has great cc and inflicts 25 stacks of vulnerability with ease. Other than that, as I already said, it provides all the Mesmer skips (Blink/Portal + Feedback) which are always precious in every group, and it plays Focus which is the usual great utility in almost all encounters.

So, let’s talk about how bad Virtuoso is designed for pvp environment, but stop claiming false problems with it in pve.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Ombras.2853

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Ombras.2853 said:

plus it has great cc

Once again notice  how people who defend Virtuoso have to resort to lies?

[Veprovina.4876]

2 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Virtuoso as a pure DPS right now is on the verge of being broken (we are talking about pve, yes?).

Let me guess...

You're talking about golem DPS numbers...

🤦‍♂️

35 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Once again notice  how people who defend Virtuoso have to resort to lies?

Yes, that has ineed been the theme from EoD release...

Everyone who is claiming Virtuoso is great/broken always lie about what it can do. 

And not just "hmm, maybe" lies, just outright disproveable lies, like, the ones that have already been disproved by facts.

 

[Ombras.2853]

Hello? We are talking about pve.

Lies about the cc? Sure. Check the abilities. It has great cc.

Lies about the “golem numbers”? Sure, cuz they are worthless when talking about Raids and Fractals… not.

Lies about the sustain? You never played it, then.

 

You wanna talk about pvp? I’m the first person who comes on your side. But stop bullshitting about everything without any context.

 

[Lethion.8745]

Okay, I don't do raids but does anyone really use Portal-Blink stuff? I've never seen skipping being used outside of Dungeons which is joke of content. Also, isn't Ventari Rev much much more effective for projectile blocking?

[Ombras.2853]

Uh, yes?

There’s plenty of use for Blink-Portal, like the in-between bosses, Chronotower on w3, Spirit Woods on w1, Twin Largos… also, in Fractals is a powerhouse to skip mechanics.

Feedback is absolutely fantastic in the right context, like Matthias.

[godfat.2604]

4 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Check the abilities. It has great cc.

I am curious about this. Here’s the thing that Virtuoso does more than a core Mesmer with regard to CC:

* Psychic Force, 150 defiance damage

* Sword of Decimation, 4 seconds of Immobilization, 200 defiance damage over 4 seconds

* Bladesong Dissonance, 100 ~ 250 defiance damage, depending on the number of blades

* Losing Diversion, losing 100 ~ 400 defiance damage, depending on the number of clones and positioning

It doesn’t seem to be great at CC to me, definitely weaker than Chronomancer, and might be better than core or Mirage, however, taking the utilities for those is a big lose to damage, and while F3 is easier to land bigger defiance damage, the maximum potential is actually lower.

I am not that familiar with PvE, could you please elaborate? Or is it just comparing to other spec than Mesmer?

Edited March 28, 2022 by godfat.2604

[Urphen.2857]

10 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Uh, yes?

There’s plenty of use for Blink-Portal, like the in-between bosses, Chronotower on w3, Spirit Woods on w1, Twin Largos… also, in Fractals is a powerhouse to skip mechanics.

Feedback is absolutely fantastic in the right context, like Matthias.

Blink portal isn't exclusive to Virtuoso so it's not a plus for virtu, w3 Tower is better with chrono or mirage so no plus for virtu.

Thief can do w3 tower so nothing special about that, feedback is a niche skill mostly used on Matthias but than again guards can do the job so nothing special about this.

Your amazing cc is the same that the other Specs can do, chrono even better than the other options.

Only thing virtu is good is to be a selfish easy dps, for Raids and fracs nice thanks to the dps but saying it has amazing utility and cc while reality the other Specs bring the same is no positive point for virtu.

[Xaylin.1860]

2 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

It does high damage AND has high sustain, plus it has great cc and inflicts 25 stacks of vulnerability with ease.

Virtuoso might indeed be the easiest DPS for PvE atm. But the other two points are hardly a selling point. Any Mesmer with Domination can easily cap Vulnerability and CC for CC Virtuoso isn't outstanding. Chrono probably wins that one unless you play pMirage with Sword.

[Ombras.2853]

And who ever compared Virtuoso with other Mesmer specs? Certainly not me.

I’m saying that, as a Mesmer, it does provide in fact the usual Mesmer skips.

This is something nobody can argue about.

So the argument “it doesn’t bring anything other than dps on the table” is already flawed.

Same for the cc. I never said it’s better than Chrono, I said it has a very good cc. Which is, again, the truth, getting pretty much the same abilities (and don’t forget the stun on signet). It can still pick Moa on a Samarogh or similar, and so on.

The sustain argument still stands.

 

So, the point is: how is it a “selfless dps spec”? As a pure dps, it does exactly what you want a dps to do. 

[phokus.8934]

What a strange conversation going on here.

Why are core abilities being brought up that each elite has access to?

Virtuoso does a good job at doing one thing and that's DPS with very little thought.  From golems to open world, to fractals/raids/strikes, it does damage well.

[Ombras.2853]

3 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

What a strange conversation going on here.

Why are core abilities being brought up that each elite has access to?

Virtuoso does a good job at doing one thing and that's DPS with very little thought.  From golems to open world, to fractals/raids/strikes, it does damage well.

Cuz core Mesmer has those.

Hence Virtuoso is never “a profession that only does dps”, when you have access to all the Mesmer tools.

It’s a simple thing, really.

[phokus.8934]

10 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Cuz core Mesmer has those.

Hence Virtuoso is never “a profession that only does dps”, when you have access to all the Mesmer tools.

It’s a simple thing, really.

Right but the concept of Virtuoso is DPS and not utility.  However, anything core has the other elites have which does contain utility.  So it's a strange conversation, the previous replies.

Seems like people are beyond talking about functional changes with virtuoso and branching off th deep end (not you specifically).

[Nezekan.2671]

14 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

I mean... Since you are talking about Chrono, I guess the post is pve related?

In that case, it’s basically the only field where Virtuoso (as a dps) is actually better than PChrono.

 

It’s useless to talk about “utilities”, you still bring to the table the classic Mesmer skips (Portal + Blink, Feedback) and you either get a better explosive damage (which DOES matter in Fractals, useless to say the opposite) or a WAY better sustain using the condi variant for Raids.

 

Virtuoso’s issues certainly don’t belong in pve.

Chrono solo providing itself quickness and alacrity will outdamage solo Virtuoso every single time, while also getting healing.

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

And who ever compared Virtuoso with other Mesmer specs? Certainly not me.

I’m saying that, as a Mesmer, it does provide in fact the usual Mesmer skips.

This is something nobody can argue about.

So the argument “it doesn’t bring anything other than dps on the table” is already flawed.

Same for the cc. I never said it’s better than Chrono, I said it has a very good cc. Which is, again, the truth, getting pretty much the same abilities (and don’t forget the stun on signet). It can still pick Moa on a Samarogh or similar, and so on.

The sustain argument still stands.

 

So, the point is: how is it a “selfless dps spec”? As a pure dps, it does exactly what you want a dps to do. 

We have now gone back to dungeon era 'bring the Mesmer so it doesn't play content' design. Great.

[Urphen.2857]

3 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

And who ever compared Virtuoso with other Mesmer specs? Certainly not me.

I’m saying that, as a Mesmer, it does provide in fact the usual Mesmer skips.

This is something nobody can argue about.

So the argument “it doesn’t bring anything other than dps on the table” is already flawed.

Same for the cc. I never said it’s better than Chrono, I said it has a very good cc. Which is, again, the truth, getting pretty much the same abilities (and don’t forget the stun on signet). It can still pick Moa on a Samarogh or similar, and so on.

The sustain argument still stands.

 

So, the point is: how is it a “selfless dps spec”? As a pure dps, it does exactly what you want a dps to do. 

Right you said virtu is great because it brings this and that, defending it with things that the whole class has access to it.

You haven't said mesmer is in a good spot because it has cc and so on you talked about virtu.

And no saying it brings nothing but dps isn't flawed because virtu brings nothing but dps with the options to use core things to bring more.

Chrono can bring boon support or dps + the core kit so it already can do more, there was a time it could do good dps + being quick Support but anet nerfed it because mesmer isn't allowed to do this while cqfb can do what it want.

 

So it stays virtu brings nothing but dps to the already existing mesmer kit.

[Ombras.2853]

31 minutes ago, Urphen.2857 said:

Right you said virtu is great because it brings this and that, defending it with things that the whole class has access to it.

You haven't said mesmer is in a good spot because it has cc and so on you talked about virtu.

And no saying it brings nothing but dps isn't flawed because virtu brings nothing but dps with the options to use core things to bring more.

Chrono can bring boon support or dps + the core kit so it already can do more, there was a time it could do good dps + being quick Support but anet nerfed it because mesmer isn't allowed to do this while cqfb can do what it want.

 

So it stays virtu brings nothing but dps to the already existing mesmer kit.

This is literally kitten, sorry.

If Chrono brings boons, it’s not bringing dps (quickness dps is another thing entirely).

If it’s not, then it’s currently a worse version of Virtuoso.

At the moment, pve dps top dogs are Scourge and Virtuoso.

If it’s something we didn’t need or something we didn’t ask for (i myself wanted first a support spec, then a good WvW variant) it’s another story.

 

3 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Chrono solo providing itself quickness and alacrity will outdamage solo Virtuoso every single time, while also getting healing.

Can you please realize that in ALL kind of End game pve content quickness and alac are provided by your subgroup? This argument is literally null.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Ombras.2853