Brandon Uzumaki.1524 Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 I don't like quickness lol, when you get used to have it permanently in group content, the game feels suglish and slow when you don't have it, wish they increased overall atack speed of autos (or only a few, maybe melee only) by like 10-15%, and then nerf Quickness to be 20-25% increase, maybe increase animation speed or cast time of certain skills as well, but that's not as necessary, baam, Quickness good now. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeTect.5918 Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 3 minutes ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said: I don't like quickness lol, when you get used to have it permanently in group content, the game feels suglish and slow when you don't have it, wish they increased overall atack speed of autos (or only a few, maybe melee only) by like 10-15%, and then nerf Quickness to be 20-25% increase, maybe increase animation speed or cast time of certain skills as well, but that's not as necessary, baam, Quickness good now. Why of Autos???? Can we please stop buffing auto attacks and doing nothing to other skills? I dont want gw2 to have 30k full auto attack benchmarks. If you nerf quickness, just buff all other core professions to get out the similar damage. No need to go to every weapon and buffing it. Especially not auto attacks. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomnium.1532 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 4 hours ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said: I don't like quickness lol, when you get used to have it permanently in group content, the game feels suglish and slow when you don't have it, wish they increased overall atack speed of autos (or only a few, maybe melee only) by like 10-15%, and then nerf Quickness to be 20-25% increase, maybe increase animation speed or cast time of certain skills as well, but that's not as necessary, baam, Quickness good now. I've mentionned it in the past but this is also my feeling, I'd very much like an overall activation speed buff for all skills and quickness being nerfed to a degree lesser than a get +25-30% damage on top of drastic ease of play. People also misunderstand the fact that you spend more time auto attacking makes dodges, movement and mechanics easier as you are less often exposed to cancelling important skills while a mechanic arrives. To be perfectly honest I think the quickness nerf is quite inevitable right now, The problem is that it is now a core part of the pacing of the game and would radically transform the game if changed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 30, 2022 Author Share Posted March 30, 2022 11 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said: While i acknowledge your feeling of how strong quickness is i have to ask you... Do you really want to make players feel less powerful which might in turn ruin their enjoyment of certain classes or builds or even the game in general? Yes. It is the nature of nerfs to "ruin the enjoyment of these builds that are overperforming". An overperforming boon is no different. The collateral damage is irrelevant. 11 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said: What makes you not enjoy quickness the way it is right now? The huge impact it has, the ease of which it is maintained group-wide by some, but inability to do the same for self, the binary nature of it in PvP formats. 11 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said: The game has lots of powerful boons that shine in different game modes. True, but really don't think any have this combination of "can get group-wide, is hugely impactful, can't secure for self really". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungozen.2379 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 Quickness as a concept is a fine boon. Where I feel it fails is when it is required 24/7 for every player in a group or squad. This creates uninteresting choices for player builds (if you can provide quickness, you have to be able to provide 100% uptime, and your build and gear will reflect this). If 100% quickness uptime via boon share was removed from the game, I could see two situations where it could be used to good effect and create some more interesting choices. 1 - Burn Phases - Have 1 click skills that buff the 5 man group with Quickness for say 10-20 seconds every 90-120 seconds. Remove the connection to Concentration and Boon Duration, it's just a set duration. I feel this is self explanatory, it's a concept I have seen in SWTOR and WoW with different buffs provided for a limited time on a long cooldown. 2 - Build options for professions - By limiting Quickness to self buff only, you could have builds that might lean into 100% Quick uptime to motivate alternate playstyles similarly to current builds that lean into Fury, Might, Regen etc. An example is how Improved Alacrity creates different ways to build Chronomancer. Another is Fervent Force on Untamed (not Alacrity per say, but it changes the way the prof is played by speeding up skill cooldowns). I don't know if there are any builds that lean into Quickness the same way, I am sure they exist, but why would players build that way if there is someone already buffing the 5 man group with 100% uptime. I would put Alacrity in the same boat as Quickness. Just reread what I wrote but put Alacrity instead of Quickness. However, I feel that Alacrity has far greater impact on build design. The way it affects your rotation can change the entire feel for the player, rendering some builds useless when they are not playing with 100% Alacrity uptime. Perhaps I am wrong on this next point, but are there not builds that require other players to provide 100% Alacrity in order to function properly? I mean outside of just the DPS. Builds that could benefit from 100% Alacrity should be able to self buff to meet this requirement. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said: Yes. It is the nature of nerfs to "ruin the enjoyment of these builds that are overperforming". An overperforming boon is no different. The collateral damage is irrelevant. HMMM i would argue that its not over performing honestly. Also unforunately he collateral damage you speak of is so great that it would require a game wide re-evaluation which might cause more damage than intended. I would rather see more enemies that steal boons or corrupt boons or deal more damage based on the boons applied to a player vs a nerf to quickness. This would combat uptime. You could also consider re adjusting stat combos that provide concentration so that the ease to maintain it remains the same but classes or builds that provide it are less powerful in the dps department for doing so. Quote True, but really don't think any have this combination of "can get group-wide, is hugely impactful, can't secure for self really". I generally disagree and i don't think you should ever make a change that is going to fundamentally increase dissatisfaction to such a large percentage of your player base in any game. It's how you kill games that are doing fine as they are with the click of a button. If quickness got cut in half again down to 25% action speed from 50% do you think people would still not want it? If you cut durations down do you think people would still not want it? If you nerf it in either way it will promote it as even more of a priority boon than what it already is. This will result in people playing classes than can self sustain it even more or people having to stack more of those classes that can produce it to keep the uptime alive. There is no real solution aside from removing it completely and at that point you have single handedly ruined the enjoyment of the end game for effectively no reason. Rather than designing the end game with quickness in mind you stripped quickness from the players leaving them feeling weaker so that the content can be harder rather than just making the content with quickness in mind. There are right and wrong ways to go about doing things. Just nerfing quickness is not the option here. The only way I could agree to them nerfing quickness is by making built in weapon specific traits that naturally boost activation speed of those weapons when equipped to compensate warrior has a weak trait like this and reaper also use to have a trait like this before that trait got changed into self quickness generation. But even doing this would mean alot of trait reworks and testing to ensure every class with the majority of its weapons hits a nice balancing point which could take anet months or years to do and even then some weapons may end up getting the short end of the stick. Edited March 30, 2022 by ZDragon.3046 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 30, 2022 Author Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said: If quickness got cut in half again down to 25% action speed from 50% do you think people would still not want it? I was advocating for 33% (so 25% more boom), instead of 25 (so 20% more oomph), but okay. Yes. One person providing three others a 20% DPS increase that bumps their 29k to 34k while still pumping out their own 20k is more damage than they themselves pupming out 29k, along with the others. It's just that it isn't as punishing to not have it in PvE, and isn't as hard to counter in PvP (which is where it all started; a finish/rez-them-quick-button). Edited March 30, 2022 by The Boz.2038 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said: I was advocating for 33% (so 25% more boom), instead of 25 (so 20% more oomph), but okay. Yes. One person providing three others a 20% DPS increase that bumps their 29k to 34k while still pumping out their own 20k is more damage than they themselves pupming out 29k, along with the others. It's just that it isn't as punishing to not have it in PvE, and isn't as hard to counter in PvP (which is where it all started; a finish/rez-them-quick-button). The numbers you are listing here are bloated and not acurate to the majority of the player base in most encounters. Most players average 28k at their peeks in a good encounter with the current quickness and this is like the top end for most casual players who actually try and dont have to do any mechanics that make them stop attacking etc. So nerfing quickness will not be pushing people up to 29k or 34k. You would actually be nerfing most players damage down by a few thousand and the more casual the player is the more damage they have to lose. I dont consider myself in the top percentile and i can only manage the 80 to 85% mark on bench golems which is around 33k. This is with the current quickness. I don't see how nerfing it would lead to most people still hitting 29-34k its just gonna be a dps downgrade and people feeling less powerful no matter how we spin it. Even then we have to circle back around to a good reasoning for doing his which is currently "because i think it's too strong." which is not a good enough reason imo. Rather than coming up with creative solutions to combat the power of quickness in group situations you are proposing a game wide nerf which only brings dissatisfaction rather than increased interactions for players. The rez them quick thing has been patched out long ago and no longer applies making it very irrelevant to the conversation here i think. On a general note a boon is not suppose to be punishing to generally have thats why its called a boon. If they wanted it to be punishing it would be an effect like warrior use to have where you attacked faster but took more damage while it was active which should not be something you share with your party. Effects like that would not be used in a good number of fights eliminating that class's build for that role. Edited March 30, 2022 by ZDragon.3046 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 We are talking about relative increases. Numbers were irrelevant examples as absolute values, their relative ratios were key. And still, even in that capacity, they were pretty close to expected performance. And again, the point is to *rein in* some of the free damage that differentiates full-on try-hard raid squad with all boons up always, and a less organized PUG. So, as I said before, *overall loss of damage on the high end* is yes. 16 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said: Rather than coming up with creative solutions to combat the power of quickness in group situations you are proposing a game wide nerf How... How would you globally combat the power of quickness in group situations without a game-wide nerf of quickness? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hash.8462 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 This effect was born to be of short duration and very rare, is ANet fault if they they added specializations that can spread this boon to the party so easily, anyway, I don't think that a global nerf would be a wise choise as professions are also balanced on the boons they can give to themselves. Honestly I would be more happy to see nerf like the one done to "Feel My Wrath!", by just halving the outgoing duration of quickness you are spreading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said: We are talking about relative increases. Numbers were irrelevant examples as absolute values, their relative ratios were key. And still, even in that capacity, they were pretty close to expected performance. And again, the point is to *rein in* some of the free damage that differentiates full-on try-hard raid squad with all boons up always, and a less organized PUG. So, as I said before, *overall loss of damage on the high end* is yes. How... How would you globally combat the power of quickness in group situations without a game-wide nerf of quickness? Oh no, now I've gone done confused someone with my reply. Oh woe. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said: We are talking about relative increases. Numbers were irrelevant examples as absolute values, their relative ratios were key. And still, even in that capacity, they were pretty close to expected performance. And again, the point is to *rein in* some of the free damage that differentiates full-on try-hard raid squad with all boons up always, and a less organized PUG. So, as I said before, *overall loss of damage on the high end* is yes. How... How would you globally combat the power of quickness in group situations without a game-wide nerf of quickness? Well.... Having end game foes apply slow if not dealt with properly is one way as slow on top of quickness results in a slower attacking speed than base. Foes who steal boons or deal increased damage to you if you have boons. I would like to imagine hp and the scaling of ai hp is done with some amount of quickness in mind as well so that is something that combats it indirectly and can be adjusted to combat it more or less with the inclusion of enrage timers. Your boons getting converted into conditions upon not doing mechanics properly. Including more mechanics you just cant heal / barrier through forever which forces players to stop attacking remember that anytime not spent doing an attack or healing action means quickness is doing nothing which waste quickness up time. There are many ways to combat quickness in endgame content and situations without just nerfing it down to make players feel weaker. The game already has most of the features i just listed the issue is that you just don't see enough of them consistently. The EoD endgame content thus far is promising though perhaps you should wait and see what anet moves their standard too before advocating a game wide quickness nerf. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 54 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said: I would like to imagine hp and the scaling of ai hp is done with some amount of quickness in mind "We scale this with quickness in mind, so if you don't have quickness, you're kinda screwed"? All the other suggestions are *massive design-level overhauls* of *content*. Which is significantly more expensive than "just tweak this number from 50 to 33". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 31 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: "We scale this with quickness in mind, so if you don't have quickness, you're kinda screwed"? All the other suggestions are *massive design-level overhauls* of *content*. Which is significantly more expensive than "just tweak this number from 50 to 33". I think you are misunderstanding me Raid boss or strike boss encounters are designed and scaled currently with the idea that a group will have quickness when taking them on. Meaning you cannot blaze through them no matter how powerful you feel current end game stuff should more or less feel like you need to do it appropriately. You design with the idea that a group will likely have quickness applied. This means if you go to do one of the PoF raids with no quickness you are going to struggle considerably because the fight is built with the idea that the group will likely have it applied. Its probably not impossible to win without quickness but its going to be much rougher on you as a result. In some fights you might find that you hit in enrage because simply not having it in a fight that was designed with the idea that you would have it is a problem.... TO BE CLEAR... Im not saying make it scale up down actively from second to second depending on if you have quickness or not. I AM saying that the devs understand a boss should have x amount of hp because the group is expected to have some amount of quickness and likely do x amount of damage in x amount of time. All of the other suggestions already exists in the game meaning you don't need an overhaul to apply them to future content which would be the current end game content consistently. If your argument is now "this is not realistic because it would require a massive overhaul" then the initial argument has even less standing as nerfing quickness from what it currently is will most definitely require a massive overhaul especially to recently developed content PoF raids for sure possibly some HoT raids, some fractals, EoD strikes and possibly even some open world metas plus content already in development thats near the finished stages. Tweaking a number from 50 to 33 means there is a dps loss some fights are already pushing tight limits with organized groups that work on the 50% number. Additionally there is no good reason to tweak the number from 50 to 33 im sad to say that "i think the boon is too strong" is not good enough of a reason at this point in time. Had you brought this up when it first got reduced from 100% to 50% i would give you a bit more wiggle room but at this point so much content has been developed on top of that 50% number that simply tweaking it down to 33 wont be as simple as you think. Edited March 31, 2022 by ZDragon.3046 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the krytan assassin.9235 Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 It's kinda hard so specify the amount that alac and quickness contribute to overall dps/surviveability since the increase of attack speed/decrease of cd's also effect the amount of Boons etc you can output. Also the power of quickness depends alot on the power of your autoattack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted May 15, 2022 Author Share Posted May 15, 2022 On 4/4/2022 at 1:41 PM, the krytan assassin.9235 said: It's kinda hard so specify the amount that alac and quickness contribute to overall dps/surviveability since the increase of attack speed/decrease of cd's also effect the amount of Boons etc you can output. Also the power of quickness depends alot on the power of your autoattack It is not hard to go to the golem, do a to-spec rotation, then do a no-quick rotation, then do a no-alac rotation, and compare the numbers. For most classes/builds, quickness will come out on top. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arewn.2368 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 I don't think the potency of quickness is really the problem here. As other have pointed out, it's more or less in line with other boons. The bigger problem is the effect it has on gameplay. The pace of combat dramatically shifts based on whether or not you have the boon. The fact that your build plays so differently in or out of a situations where you are being provided 100% quickness isn't healthy for the game. You feel sluggish without it. And it increases the learning curve for new players. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arewn.2368 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 (edited) On 3/31/2022 at 11:58 AM, ZDragon.3046 said: I think you are misunderstanding me Raid boss or strike boss encounters are designed and scaled currently with the idea that a group will have quickness when taking them on. Meaning you cannot blaze through them no matter how powerful you feel current end game stuff should more or less feel like you need to do it appropriately. You design with the idea that a group will likely have quickness applied. This means if you go to do one of the PoF raids with no quickness you are going to struggle considerably because the fight is built with the idea that the group will likely have it applied. Its probably not impossible to win without quickness but its going to be much rougher on you as a result. In some fights you might find that you hit in enrage because simply not having it in a fight that was designed with the idea that you would have it is a problem.... TO BE CLEAR... Im not saying make it scale up down actively from second to second depending on if you have quickness or not. I AM saying that the devs understand a boss should have x amount of hp because the group is expected to have some amount of quickness and likely do x amount of damage in x amount of time. All of the other suggestions already exists in the game meaning you don't need an overhaul to apply them to future content which would be the current end game content consistently. If your argument is now "this is not realistic because it would require a massive overhaul" then the initial argument has even less standing as nerfing quickness from what it currently is will most definitely require a massive overhaul especially to recently developed content PoF raids for sure possibly some HoT raids, some fractals, EoD strikes and possibly even some open world metas plus content already in development thats near the finished stages. Tweaking a number from 50 to 33 means there is a dps loss some fights are already pushing tight limits with organized groups that work on the 50% number. Additionally there is no good reason to tweak the number from 50 to 33 im sad to say that "i think the boon is too strong" is not good enough of a reason at this point in time. Had you brought this up when it first got reduced from 100% to 50% i would give you a bit more wiggle room but at this point so much content has been developed on top of that 50% number that simply tweaking it down to 33 wont be as simple as you think. I can only imagine that nerfing quickness to 33% would almost cetainly be accompanied by a blanket change to all abilities increasing their speed by 17%. As such the change would be neutral in terms of overall balance, but would shift some of the power away from the boon and into your baseline strength. Edited May 19, 2022 by Arewn.2368 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 43 minutes ago, Arewn.2368 said: I can only imagine that nerfing quickness to 33% would almost cetainly be accompanied by a blanket change to all abilities increasing their speed by 17%. As such the change would be neutral in terms of overall balance, but would shift some of the power away from the boon and into your baseline strength. Yeah thats not worth doing tbh. just leave it on the boon. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted May 24, 2022 Author Share Posted May 24, 2022 But why would that need to be done? There is 0 reason to keep current under-quickness performance as some sort of baseline... 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frareanselm.1925 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 I'll never understand this toxic players coming to a forum, asking for more nerfs! Yo may be a masochist. Nerf me more daddy please! 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted May 29, 2022 Author Share Posted May 29, 2022 Any nerf is toxic to you? Umm. Okay. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frareanselm.1925 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 12 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: Any nerf is toxic to you? Umm. Okay. If white mantle mobs and forged mobs weren't overpowered enough... we should nerf the player so the PVE experience become more tedious? If we nerf the player everybody loses. And anet has nerfed every class since 2012 into ovlivion and never buffed a single feature. All they do to balance is nerfing what is Op, instead of buffing the weaker aspects of every class. 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 Any nerfs to Quickness or Alacrity would throw a serious wrench into Anet's 'roles' implementation for groups to ensure a place for any class people want to play. I see no reason they would do all the implementation work to make roles happen, then demolish it with nerfs to either of these boons. Personally, I think the choice of these two boons as 'roles' is strategic; they both heavily benefit the average player more than any others. Any nerfs to these would also be a significant back pedal of the idea that there is a place for casual players to experience group content and use LI builds to be successful. These boons are NOT there for the highly capable players ... they don't need them. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted May 29, 2022 Author Share Posted May 29, 2022 1 hour ago, frareanselm.1925 said: And anet has nerfed every class since 2012 into ovlivion and never buffed a single feature. This is just not true. What game have you been playing? 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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