Nerfing wrong things

[De Bourgogne.9642]

Nerfs to hungering darkness and siphon slow are very correct but the twilight combo nerf is pretty bad decision. The problem with specter was not its damage but tankiness. Twilight combo should have its chill completely removed or moved to scepter 2 to replace weakness and keep the current power scaling damage. (You currently don't really use scepter 2 so moving chill on it could give you incentive to use it to stick to the target) Condi duration reductions are fine. That way it can also retain 4 initiative cost. What needs to happen is reduction to shroud HP % which is currently at 150% of thiefs HP. Lets compare this to necro shroud. Necro shroud with soul reaping after applying 50% damage reduction it has it gives effective HP of 165,6% of necros HP. It is crazy to think necro and thief have comparable shroud tankiness. I guess thief does have 8k less base HP but still has many other strengths over necro. So I think you should look at reducing shroud value somewhere between 100-120%?

Specter (PvP Only):

• Hungering Darkness: Increased pulse interval from 1 second to 3 seconds. Increased base barrier and healing from 517 to 773. Increased barrier and healing attribute scaling from 0.2 to 0.3.
• Twilight Combo: Increased initiative cost from 4 to 5. Reduced first projectile power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.3. Reduced chill duration from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. Reduced poison and torment duration from 8 seconds to 6 seconds.
• Siphon: Reduced shadow force gained from 25% to 15%. Reduced slow duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.

Edited March 31, 2022 by McPero.3287

[Jumpel.3972]

Thief already have 2 spec about damage. I would rather see them nerf damage and leave untouch the tankiness but they choose both...

[Szymon.5369]

I'm just an enthusiastic noob, but won't that make Sc/P just a better choice now? Damage loss on dagger seems harsh considering you can only burst with 2 TCs in a row with full ini. Not to mention shorter chill meaning less utility, because dagger 4/5 are very niche/unused anyway, while pistol 4/5 are both generally handy

[Markri.9475]

6 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

Nerfs to hungering darkness and siphon slow are very correct but the twilight combo nerf is pretty bad decision. The problem with specter was not its damage but tankiness. Twilight combo should have its chill completely removed or moved to scepter 2 to replace weakness and keep the current power scaling damage. (You currently don't really use scepter 2 so moving chill on it could give you incentive to use it to stick to the target) Condi duration reductions are fine. That way it can also retain 4 initiative cost. What needs to happen is reduction to shroud HP % which is currently at 150% of thiefs HP. Lets compare this to necro shroud. Necro shroud with soul reaping after applying 50% damage reduction it has it gives effective HP of 165,6% of necros HP. It is crazy to think necro and thief have comparable shroud tankiness. I guess thief does have 8k less base HP but still has many other strengths over necro. So I think you should look at reducing shroud value somewhere between 100-120%?

Specter (PvP Only):

• Hungering Darkness: Increased pulse interval from 1 second to 3 seconds. Increased base barrier and healing from 517 to 773. Increased barrier and healing attribute scaling from 0.2 to 0.3.
• Twilight Combo: Increased initiative cost from 4 to 5. Reduced first projectile power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.3. Reduced chill duration from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. Reduced poison and torment duration from 8 seconds to 6 seconds.
• Siphon: Reduced shadow force gained from 25% to 15%. Reduced slow duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.

50%dmg reduction is an increase of effective hp by 200%.

if you have 1000 hp and 50% dmg reduction, you need to take 2000 dmg to die.

if you have 1000 hp and 150% effective hp, you need to take 1500 dmg to die.

150% effective hp is roughly 33% dmg reduction.

assuming a 1200hp shroud (1k +soul reaping lifeforce) you need to take 2400dmg.

 

Id also note the difference this makes for things that restore shroud/hp. if both have an ability that restores shroud, both restoring 1000 shroud. Then the 50% dmg reduction gets more value than the 33%.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

4 hours ago, Markri.9475 said:

50%dmg reduction is an increase of effective hp by 200%.

if you have 1000 hp and 50% dmg reduction, you need to take 2000 dmg to die.

if you have 1000 hp and 150% effective hp, you need to take 1500 dmg to die.

150% effective hp is roughly 33% dmg reduction.

assuming a 1200hp shroud (1k +soul reaping lifeforce) you need to take 2400dmg.

 

Id also note the difference this makes for things that restore shroud/hp. if both have an ability that restores shroud, both restoring 1000 shroud. Then the 50% dmg reduction gets more value than the 33%.

Necro shroud 69% of your HP, soul reaping 20% increase means 82.8% of necros HP in shroud. Add 50% damage reduction - >Necro shroud absorbs 165.6% of its HP with full shroud. 

Specter full shroud is 150% of its HP and has no damage reductions mot sure what you are on about. This simple comparison shows that necro shroud with soul reaping pulls ahead by barely 15.6% of effective hit points. Shroud is always gained via % of total shroud not by fixed value so that is a pointless addition especially since specter has no damage reduction in shroud. 

 

Let me now attempt to do what you tried to do by calculating how much damage reduction theif would have if it was necromancer and its shroud was 69% of HP + it had soulreaping. 

So 69%*120%=82.8% of thiefs HP is converted to a shroud that has unknown damage reduction value but its effective HP of shroud is equal to 150% of thiefs HP. For necro equation was 82.8% * 200% = 165.6%.

82.8% * X = 150% -> 150%/82.8% = 181%. Now we need inverse value of 181% which is (1.81)^(-1)=55.2%. Now this isn't damage reduction this is actually damage taken so you need one last equation:

100%-55.2%=44.8%. 

So 44.8% is imaginary damage reduction specter gets in shroud if shroud value was equal to that off necromancer. Kind of a weird normalisation. 

[Markri.9475]

@McPero.3287

Was not aware deathshroud was at 69%, I assumed it was 100%. So 165% makes more sense.

 

The dmg reduction was to try and show howmuch extra damage the shroud could absorb, instead of effective HP.

 Your compairision of effective hp 165% is enough tho.

But compairing a %shroud effective hp depends alot on HP. not to mention other traits or shroud generation and degeneration. Or if such build is viable or not.

marauder specter 16.6k hp.

core condi necro has 30k hp?

the shroud on thief is less effective hp, and on a lower health pool. Other things make specter have more sustain though. But I still wouldn't tank on specter as I would on Necro.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

5 hours ago, Markri.9475 said:

@McPero.3287

Was not aware deathshroud was at 69%, I assumed it was 100%. So 165% makes more sense.

 

The dmg reduction was to try and show howmuch extra damage the shroud could absorb, instead of effective HP.

 Your compairision of effective hp 165% is enough tho.

But compairing a %shroud effective hp depends alot on HP. not to mention other traits or shroud generation and degeneration. Or if such build is viable or not.

marauder specter 16.6k hp.

core condi necro has 30k hp?

the shroud on thief is less effective hp, and on a lower health pool. Other things make specter have more sustain though. But I still wouldn't tank on specter as I would on Necro.

Condi specter has 20k hp but yeah I mentioned that Necro has higher base HP. 

[Caedmon.6798]

22 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

Nerfs to hungering darkness and siphon slow are very correct but the twilight combo nerf is pretty bad decision. The problem with specter was not its damage but tankiness. Twilight combo should have its chill completely removed or moved to scepter 2 to replace weakness and keep the current power scaling damage. (You currently don't really use scepter 2 so moving chill on it could give you incentive to use it to stick to the target) Condi duration reductions are fine. That way it can also retain 4 initiative cost. What needs to happen is reduction to shroud HP % which is currently at 150% of thiefs HP. Lets compare this to necro shroud. Necro shroud with soul reaping after applying 50% damage reduction it has it gives effective HP of 165,6% of necros HP. It is crazy to think necro and thief have comparable shroud tankiness. I guess thief does have 8k less base HP but still has many other strengths over necro. So I think you should look at reducing shroud value somewhere between 100-120%?

Specter (PvP Only):

• Hungering Darkness: Increased pulse interval from 1 second to 3 seconds. Increased base barrier and healing from 517 to 773. Increased barrier and healing attribute scaling from 0.2 to 0.3.
• Twilight Combo: Increased initiative cost from 4 to 5. Reduced first projectile power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.3. Reduced chill duration from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. Reduced poison and torment duration from 8 seconds to 6 seconds.
• Siphon: Reduced shadow force gained from 25% to 15%. Reduced slow duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.

A support spec Needs to be tanky.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

9 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

A support spec Needs to be tanky.

It is not played as support spec, best builds are marauder and carrion amulets, 0 healing power. Now if you think specter should be full support with damage of other support specs that is just gonna be terrible. Spec with insane mobility should not be overly tanky no matter the role. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by McPero.3287

[Caedmon.6798]

1 hour ago, McPero.3287 said:

It is not played as support spec, best builds are marauder and carrion amulets, 0 healing power. Now if you think specter should be full support with damage of other support specs that is just gonna be terrible. Spec with insane mobility should not be overly tanky no matter the role. 

It Is played as a support spec,best build isnt marauder. What insane mobility ? I have better mobility on DE as my specter. Wells are Not mobility.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[Curennos.9307]

6 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

It Is played as a support spec,best build isnt marauder. What insane mobility ? I have better mobility on DE as my specter. Wells are Not mobility.

How is a teleport not mobility.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Curennos.9307 said:

How is a teleport not mobility.

That's a tough call. Even with the same range as Death's Retreat, Wells are kind of slow to kick off and that hint of stalling can be enough for a group to take advantage of the short range of Wells. Death's Retreat is a little more snappy and if you double up, it can bounce you out far enough, or up or down levels enough, whereas doubling up on Wells is too slow and you will be locked down. They have trouble with terrain and topography, but they can still climb levels with pathing, like you can port up to the bank npc from the bottom floor at Reds Citadel and places like that. 

I think I just don't have enough experience with them yet to master a good getaway with them or I'm just not as good as some other players because I'm pretty easy to lock down if I have to run if Wells are all I have off cooldown. 

They're awesome for mobility forward though for suddenly rolling over a group if you have two or three slotted and if you think your group is ready to drive.

Edited April 1, 2022 by kash.9213

[Curennos.9307]

5 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

That's a tough call. Even with the same range as Death's Retreat, Wells are kind of slow to kick off and that hint of stalling can be enough for a group to take advantage of the short range of Wells. Death's Retreat is a little more snappy and if you double up, it can bounce you out far enough, or up or down levels enough, whereas doubling up on Wells is too slow and you will be locked down. They have trouble with terrain and topography, but they can still climb levels with pathing, like you can port up to the bank npc from the bottom floor at Reds Citadel and places like that. 

I think I just don't have enough experience with them yet to master a good getaway with them or I'm just not as good as some other players because I'm pretty easy to lock down if I have to run if Wells are all I have off cooldown. 

They're awesome for mobility forward though for suddenly rolling over a group if you have two or three slotted and if you think your group is ready to drive.

You misunderstand - they are definitely mobility skills, at least in part. I posted that while taking a break at work cause they're just objectively wrong, lol.

 

The well skills just happen to be slightly more vulnerable than most teleports, though they still retain the excellent capability of z-axis mobility that teleports have. Just because they may not be as good as some other options doesn't make them not...that.

 

The only drawback I would say they have is that if you have to kite onto a no-port spot for whatever reason - such as running from a class that also has a port (which is most of them now lmao) to try and recover, you won't be able to use any utilities.

 

Specter may not have the best open field speed, but has *excellent* in-combat mobility, especially when wells are paired with sword/x.

[Caedmon.6798]

8 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

How is a teleport not mobility.

Because theyre not used As mobility,theyre used as Wells,to lay down damage and CC. You dont use 3 wells in a row to gain a short amount of distance where Shadowstep ( Actual mobility ) will clear a larger distance,and has no cast time. The wells are slow to cast,walking forward with swiftness up will grant the same distance gained.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[draxynnic.3719]

My experience with wells is that when you consider their short range and cast time, they don't actually move you that much further than you could have simply run in the time it takes for them to trigger. You're also blowing what could be a powerful combat ability just to get a couple of hundred additional units further.

I'm not saying they don't add to mobility at all, but the mobility they provide is probably offset by the loss of initiative that could be used for other mobility, and the loss of steal. It's around the mobility of other roamer/teamfighter hybrids like ranger and mesmer, not what people are used to from daredevil and core thief. 

[kash.9213]

10 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

You misunderstand - they are definitely mobility skills, at least in part. I posted that while taking a break at work cause they're just objectively wrong, lol.

 

The well skills just happen to be slightly more vulnerable than most teleports, though they still retain the excellent capability of z-axis mobility that teleports have. Just because they may not be as good as some other options doesn't make them not...that.

 

The only drawback I would say they have is that if you have to kite onto a no-port spot for whatever reason - such as running from a class that also has a port (which is most of them now lmao) to try and recover, you won't be able to use any utilities.

 

Specter may not have the best open field speed, but has *excellent* in-combat mobility, especially when wells are paired with sword/x.

That's fair and I did kind of agreed with you. If we're talking mobility in the sense of positioning and pace I agree, and while the forced port on Wells bugged me out of the gate, they actually kind of vibe with either off hand to keep a pressuring or peeling out pace. I don't think they're getting us away from a fight though, or I don't have the reflexive skill yet to pull it off without shortbow swap. Shadowstep is always there and I'd still rather have Wells in the other slots than something else right now.

[Curennos.9307]

14 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

Because theyre not used As mobility,theyre used as Wells,to lay down damage and CC. You dont use 3 wells in a row to gain a short amount of distance where Shadowstep ( Actual mobility ) will clear a larger distance,and has no cast time. The wells are slow to cast,walking forward with swiftness up will grant the same distance gained.

This is a limited, skewed view of mobility and I heavily disagree with your definition here. For example, spectral walk. Technically doesn't really send you anywhere as a teleport, but gives swiftness and allows for jukes. Just because the skill isn't better or equal to the huge range that shadowstep has doesn't make it *not* useful in a similar vein. I can only think of one skill that is ONLY ever used as 'mobility' and that's shortbow5 because it effectively is never used to actually target someone. 

 

There's more to life than 'isn't as good as shadowstep'. They're useful for jukes, z-axis mobility (which is *extremely* strong in certain circumstances), and the teleports are just all around decent additions to the skills because it gives those skills excellent flexibility in how you use them, though imo they could use some finangling. I mean, of course you could just...cast the wells on yourself and totally ignore the teleport, but I imagine doing that or asking for the tp to be removed would be considered an all around nerf.

 

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

That's fair and I did kind of agreed with you. If we're talking mobility in the sense of positioning and pace I agree, and while the forced port on Wells bugged me out of the gate, they actually kind of vibe with either off hand to keep a pressuring or peeling out pace. I don't think they're getting us away from a fight though, or I don't have the reflexive skill yet to pull it off without shortbow swap. Shadowstep is always there and I'd still rather have Wells in the other slots than something else right now.

You won't be outrunning every other thief with wells alone, true. But if you could they'd probably be OP. The only skill that could get you away from a fight all on its own would probably be shadowstep, if we're talking movement, or various stealth skills. They are, however, excellent when paired with other things - dp/forms of stealth into teleport, sword2, SB, etc. It looks like it's more and more common to ditch shortbow for scepter/x + x/x while forgoing shortbow - which, admittedly, may be a sign of the weakness of SB5 rather than the strength of the wells, but that's more of a nitpick. They are definitely less forgiving than what most are probably used to, though.

 

My only beef with them is that they're probably just not...good enough without alacrity attached to them.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Curennos.9307

[De Bourgogne.9642]

Why are you comparing specter mobility to other thief specs the most mobile profession lmao. Claim is specter needs to be tanky because its a support and not mobile. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by McPero.3287

[Downstate.4697]

Spectre is carried by shroud

[Puck.3697]

On 4/7/2022 at 2:49 AM, McPero.3287 said:

Why are you complaining specter mobility to other thief specs the most mobile profession lmao. Claim is specter needs to be tanky because its a support and not mobile. 

I'd disagree. 

Anet themselves said tempest and guardian are the support choices of Spvp. They don't intend spectre to play that role in spvp. 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

27 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I'd disagree. 

Anet themselves said tempest and guardian are the support choices of Spvp. They don't intend spectre to play that role in spvp. 

You actually agree with me. I am trying to disprove the claim you quoted. Specter isn't support it is hybrid. 

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, McPero.3287 said:

You actually agree with me. I am trying to disprove the claim you quoted. Specter isn't support it is hybrid. 

Oh haha 😂 I musta quoted the wrong guy lol. 

[Sugar Min.5834]

~pls delete this post~

Edited April 10, 2022 by Mil.3562

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/9/2022 at 3:09 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

I'd disagree. 

Anet themselves said tempest and guardian are the support choices of Spvp. They don't intend spectre to play that role in spvp. 

I don't think that statement was supposed to be exclusionary. They're also looking to bring shout support warrior back, and they've explicitly designed spectre to be good at supporting a single ally, which is something that's going to be most impactful in battles with one or two allies, which you're most likely to see in sPvP. Pretty sure they've even said they expected it to shine in that role, and if it doesn't, what's the point?

[Puck.3697]

49 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think that statement was supposed to be exclusionary. They're also looking to bring shout support warrior back, and they've explicitly designed spectre to be good at supporting a single ally, which is something that's going to be most impactful in battles with one or two allies, which you're most likely to see in sPvP. Pretty sure they've even said they expected it to shine in that role, and if it doesn't, what's the point?

It doesn't fill that role tho it rly doesn't, all it's spvp builds are pure DPS built realistically.

It just doesn't do support very well ironically.