Give back projectile finisher to Mirror Blade and make Blurred Frenzy count as a "blade" skill on Virtuoso!

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well ambush is different since Mirage has the same mechanic

Doesn't answer the question or really say anything.

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

I completely forgot Greatsword had blades, but i guess my point is still relevant since Sword is best in slot for PvE so it would still make it to strong requiring a nerf somewhere else. I meant the mainhand sword attacks, especially the auto attack, unless that doesn't count as a blade like Greatsword.

To sum up my point is I'm all for the bladed trait to be added to Sword but I would like to see what they nerf first.

PvE is mostly about maximizing damage, sword is the only melee power weapon on Mesmer, so it makes sense that it does the most dps (otherwise what would be the point of playing melee, if ranged did more damage while being safer). But I'm pretty sure axe and staff have roles in PvE too. Although if you really wanted to nerf something else, there is always blade leap (which first of all should be reworked to not constantly miss its target).

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Doesn't answer the question or really say anything.

PvE is mostly about maximizing damage, sword is the only melee power weapon on Mesmer, so it makes sense that it does the most dps (otherwise what would be the point of playing melee, if ranged did more damage while being safer). But I'm pretty sure axe and staff have roles in PvE too. Although if you really wanted to nerf something else, there is always blade leap (which first of all should be reworked to not constantly miss its target).

We shall see, I guess you are right to point out offhand sword being a blade would not buff it by much.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think it's pretty clear that sword skills not counting as blades was intended. Whether it's a good choice is up for debate, but it seems to be deliberate, not a bug.

Personally, I do think that a big problem with condi virtuoso is that dagger has ended up being pretty much the only weapon that functions with it. Sceptre and staff lost their clone DPS with nothing to show for it, and the mostly torment/confusion-based damage they do doesn't synergise well with condi virtuoso traits. Greatsword still isn't a condi weapon even if a few non-autoattack skills inflict bleeds. And sword mainhand is pure power. Condi virtuoso is benching pretty high at the moment, but if that does get trimmed a bit or it could otherwise be done without pushing the condi virtuoso benchmark over the bar, letting sword skills count as blades would offer an alternative mainhand weapon.

I would note that most of the damage from offhand sword is coming from the phantasm, and the phantasm attacks probably shouldn't count as blades.

[Nezekan.2671]

If sword main hand counts as blade, it will still be inferior to dagger for condi Virtuoso due to how dagger works with applying bleeds.

[Xaylin.1860]

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well ambush is different since Mirage has the same mechanic

First, how is this any different? It is not. Imho ANet made the right call by adding those attacks to core weapons for Untamed.

 However, they shouldn't have left Hammer with 5 swap over skills. It doesn't make sense this way.

 

Second, Ambushs are just sneak attacks borrowed from Thief. It is no Mirage thing. 😉

 

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

...since Sword is best in slot for PvE so it would still make it to strong requiring a nerf somewhere else.

It is. Because it is the only core melee weapon and melee rains supreme in GW2. Not a big shocker. However, for condi it is unlikely to eclipse Dagger in PvP and even for PvE I wouldn't be sure. Because, guess what: MH Sword was so bad in PvE that ANet had to super sayian the crap out of BF to make it work.

[Mell.4873]

7 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

First, how is this any different? It is not. Imho ANet made the right call by adding those attacks to core weapons for Untamed.

 However, they shouldn't have left Hammer with 5 swap over skills. It doesn't make sense this way.

Yeah I 100% agree, again I'm thinking of the potential nerf

7 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Second, Ambushs are just sneak attacks borrowed from Thief. It is no Mirage thing.

Yeah I guess that is true, I never thought of that. I guess the thief version is tied to stealth, a dodge version should be created as the next elite spec with offhand sword. 

7 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

It is. Because it is the only core melee weapon and melee rains supreme in GW2. Not a big shocker. However, for condi it is unlikely to eclipse Dagger in PvP and even for PvE I wouldn't be sure. Because, guess what: MH Sword was so bad in PvE that ANet had to super sayian the crap out of BF to make it work.

All true which is why power Virtuoso does use it. Again we shall wait and see, I'm all up for more Virtuoso mechanics.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think it's pretty clear that sword skills not counting as blades was intended. Whether it's a good choice is up for debate, but it seems to be deliberate, not a bug.

No, it isn't clear at all, you literally just pulled that out of your kitten. It is, however, clear that they are supposed to count as blades since GS skills already do.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

4 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

No, it isn't clear at all, you literally just pulled that out of your kitten. It is, however, clear that they are supposed to count as blades since GS skills already do.

What do you base this being a bug upon?  Do you really believe that Anet coded Sword to count as blades and some bug is preventing that from working as intended?

A bug means that something isn’t working as intended. We have no information that suggests Sword should have Blades, other than the hopes and dreams of posters in these forums.

Given that it’s been just over a month since launch, and 6 months from the first Beta, with several updates/patches since, wouldn’t we have had something to indicate that Sword was not working as designed?

What makes you so sure this is a bug and not the intended design?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

15 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

What do you base this being a bug upon?  Do you really believe that Anet coded Sword to count as blades and some bug is preventing that from working as intended?

A bug means that something isn’t working as intended.

The intention of the traits that enhance "blades" is to enhance blade-based attacks, hence why it does exactly that for greatsword and dagger and bladesongs. All blade-based attacks on Mesmer except sword skills in fact (curious, huh). It does not for sword. Therefore it is a bug.

Quote

We have no information that suggests Sword should have Blades, other than the hopes and dreams of posters in these forums.

Yes we do, namely the fact that sword skills use blades to attack enemies, just like greatsword skills, Bladesongs, and dagger skills.

Quote

Given that it’s been just over a month since launch, and 6 months from the first Beta, with several updates/patches since, wouldn’t we have had something to indicate that Sword was not working as designed?

Absolutely not, there are bugs in this game that have been in the game for years and years, that's not an anomaly for anet at all. And this is not a particularly urugent bug. And they are obviously only going to fix it if someone reports it, which is what I'm doing with this post, and you are upset about that? Lame.

Quote

What makes you so sure this is a bug and not the intended design?

See above.

Edited April 4, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Mungo Zen.9364]

8 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

The intention of the traits that enhance "blades" is to enhance blade-based attacks, hence why it does exactly that for greatsword and dagger and bladesongs. All blade-based attacks on Mesmer except sword skills in fact (curious, huh). It does not for sword. Therefore it is a bug.

Yes we do, namely the fact that sword skills use blades to attack enemies, just like greatsword skills, Bladesongs, and dagger skills. But of course this required an IQ above 80 to realize.

Absolutely not, there are bugs in this game that have been in the game for years and years, that's not an anomaly for anet at all. And this is not a particularly urugent bug. And they are obviously only going to fix it if someone reports it, which is what I'm doing with this post, and you are upset about that? Lame.

See above.

So, you have no reason to assume this other than hopes and dreams?

Just because a Sword has a Blade on a Hilt doesn't automatically mean it is a 'Blade' skill. 

You might notice that Dagger and Greatsword skills that count as Blades are all 1200 range.  GS5 isn't 1200 range and doesn't count as a Blade (perhaps it should?).  GS1 is 1200 Range, perhaps that should count as a Blade?

Sword skills are all under 1200 range, most being 130 range.  How does the range of the skill factor into your deduction that this is a bug?  I could argue that only bladed weapon skills with 1200 range should count in this manner, and we have proof in game to support this.

Based upon the information we have been given, the skills as we see them in game, I cannot see anything that provides any proof that Sword not counting as Blades is a bug.  Provide a link or screenshot that supports your position that this is a bug, but until then, this is just you hoping for something that doesn't appear to be true.

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

22 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

So, you have no reason to assume this other than hopes and dreams?

Just because a Sword has a Blade on a Hilt doesn't automatically mean it is a 'Blade' skill. 

You might notice that Dagger and Greatsword skills that count as Blades are all 1200 range.  GS5 isn't 1200 range and doesn't count as a Blade (perhaps it should?).  GS1 is 1200 Range, perhaps that should count as a Blade?

Sword skills are all under 1200 range, most being 130 range.  How does the range of the skill factor into your deduction that this is a bug?  I could argue that only bladed weapon skills with 1200 range should count in this manner, and we have proof in game to support this.

Based upon the information we have been given, the skills as we see them in game, I cannot see anything that provides any proof that Sword not counting as Blades is a bug.  Provide a link or screenshot that supports your position that this is a bug, but until then, this is just you hoping for something that doesn't appear to be true.

 

Fact that you are limited to 2 weapons for "blade" to work is already a flaw to the virtuoso design. Chrono and Mirage did not force you to only use a specific weaponset for the class to work.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

15 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

So, you have no reason to assume this other than hopes and dreams?

Just because a Sword has a Blade on a Hilt doesn't automatically mean it is a 'Blade' skill. 

You might notice that Dagger and Greatsword skills that count as Blades are all 1200 range.  GS5 isn't 1200 range and doesn't count as a Blade (perhaps it should?).  GS1 is 1200 Range, perhaps that should count as a Blade?

Gs1 doesn't use a blade, it uses a beam. The Jagged Mind bleed is obviously meant to be thematically fitting (you start bleeding from cutting yourself on the sharp edge), that doesn't make much sense for Spatial Surge now does it.

Quote

Sword skills are all under 1200 range, most being 130 range.  How does the range of the skill factor into your deduction that this is a bug?  I could argue that only bladed weapon skills with 1200 range should count in this manner, and we have proof in game to support this.

Nope, you have no reason to suppose that the range would be relevant. Bladeturn Requiem and Psychic Force aren't 1200 range yet counts as blades. Also, Spatial Surge used to proc Deadly Blades/Jagged Mind in the beta which they then fixed/changed for release, even further showing that trait is not about range (which was a stupid idea of yours to begin with, it doesn't even make sense thematically let alone in any other way). QED

Quote

Based upon the information we have been given, the skills as we see them in game, I cannot see anything that provides any proof that Sword not counting as Blades is a bug.  Provide a link or screenshot that supports your position that this is a bug, but until then, this is just you hoping for something that doesn't appear to be true.

See above.

Edited April 4, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Mungo Zen.9364]

11 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Nope, you have no reason to suppose that the range would be relevant.

We have no reason to assume any of your thoughts are relevant either.  Hence why I asked for something factual that points to this being a bug.

28 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Fact that you are limited to 2 weapons for "blade" to work is already a flaw to the virtuoso design. Chrono and Mirage did not force you to only use a specific weaponset for the class to work.

I agree, and although I don't really enjoy using Sword, I do like Scepter and Staff and the fact all 3 weapons are not as strong in Virtuoso is a let down for everyone it appears.  I do enjoy the Dagger/X setup but, I am already getting bored of it and would enjoy being able to use more of the weapons Mesmer has access to without feeling like I was gimping my build.

If Sword or other weapons received some form of Blade generation, I wouldn't be opposed at all.  I recognize it would probably come at a DPS cost somewhere else, but that is fine, since it would open up Virtuoso builds to a bit more variety.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

No, it isn't clear at all, you literally just pulled that out of your kitten. It is, however, clear that they are supposed to count as blades since GS skills already do.

Well, for a start, in the Virtuoso showcase they specifically called out the greatsword skills as counting as blades. From memory, they either didn't mention sword at all, or explicitly said they didn't (I think it was the former, but I distinctly remember coming out of the showcase thinking "oh, sword skills don't count?"). Nowhere in the tooltips, or anywhere else, has ArenaNet ever said that sword skills were supposed to be blade skills.

I can agree that they should, but the fact that they aren't isn't a bug - by all indication, ArenaNet designed it that way.

I think their logic is that blades refer specifically to energy blades conjured through magic. Dagger skills count, bladesongs count, Mirror Blade, Mind Stab, and the blade that is thrown as part of casting Phantasmal Berserker count, but physically striking with a sword does not. If we were to extend this to, say, Guardian, the projectiles from Zealous Defence and Whirling Wrath would probably count while other guardian sword skills would not.

I think it would be better for the specialisation overall if sword skills did count. It's a strange distinction to make, and they could easily just say that the virtuoso is conjuring a magical blade using the physical (or otherwise, given some sword skins...) blade as a focus. But a bug is not the same as a design choice, even if the design choice is a terrible one.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Well, for a start, in the Virtuoso showcase they specifically called out the greatsword skills as counting as blades. From memory, they either didn't mention sword at all, or explicitly said they didn't (I think it was the former, but I distinctly remember coming out of the showcase thinking "oh, sword skills don't count?"). Nowhere in the tooltips, or anywhere else, has ArenaNet ever said that sword skills were supposed to be blade skills.

I can agree that they should, but the fact that they aren't isn't a bug - by all indication, ArenaNet designed it that way.

I think their logic is that blades refer specifically to energy blades conjured through magic. Dagger skills count, bladesongs count, Mirror Blade, Mind Stab, and the blade that is thrown as part of casting Phantasmal Berserker count, but physically striking with a sword does not. If we were to extend this to, say, Guardian, the projectiles from Zealous Defence and Whirling Wrath would probably count while other guardian sword skills would not.

I think it would be better for the specialisation overall if sword skills did count. It's a strange distinction to make, and they could easily just say that the virtuoso is conjuring a magical blade using the physical (or otherwise, given some sword skins...) blade as a focus. But a bug is not the same as a design choice, even if the design choice is a terrible one.

I just rewatched the CMC Virtuoso showcase and this was not mentioned in any way. Oh well, we will see what they do.

Edited April 4, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Mell.4873]

15 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Fact that you are limited to 2 weapons for "blade" to work is already a flaw to the virtuoso design. Chrono and Mirage did not force you to only use a specific weaponset for the class to work.

The blade trait on weapons only really effects condi so any more added could unintentionally buff the 42k golem dps. This could result in a nerf somewhere. 

[Xaylin.1860]

16 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

The blade trait on weapons only really effects condi so any more added could unintentionally buff the 42k golem dps. This could result in a nerf somewhere. 

Very unlikely as long as it affects MH skills or is on 2H weapons. Why? Very easy. Because most top condi benchs use dual Dagger sets. Meaning, blades on Sword would substitute Dagger not necessarily surpass it.

[Curunen.8729]

Really sucks that MH sword auto and BF are not blade skills.

Encouraging double dagger is almost as boring as encouraging double staff for mirage.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Very unlikely as long as it affects MH skills or is on 2H weapons. Why? Very easy. Because most top condi benchs use dual Dagger sets. Meaning, blades on Sword would substitute Dagger not necessarily surpass it.

Playing devil's advocate, having sword/X and dagger/X could outstrip dagger alone, even if dagger alone surpasses sword alone, if switching to sword, using Blurred Frenzy twice, and back to dagger again allows for better damage than remaining on dagger alone. I'm sceptical that this would happen to to the flurry on the third hit of Flying Cutter and the short recharge of Bladecall, but it's possible it might pull just a little ahead. Haven't done the numbers.

Counting as blades would also be a buff to sword's ability to inflict vulnerability, even on power builds. Probably not a big deal for PvE, but it might be an issue in competitive.

Edited April 4, 2022 by draxynnic.3719
Formatting

[phokus.8934]

On 4/2/2022 at 7:19 AM, Ombras.2853 said:

Dagger problem is that d3 is one of the most terrible skill in the game for anything which isn’t pve. If it had a block or a push back it would be different.

I keep equating dagger 3 to shield 5.  It should act as a projectile absorption while doing what it does today.

[Xaylin.1860]

39 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Haven't done the numbers

It will most likely depend on the situation (number of targets, melee or ranged etc.). But for melee, sure, Sword should actually better.

 

If BF really such a big issue, they could make Jagged Mind go "50% on blade crit but twice as much when whielding a Dagger". Or, you know, go down to 6 hits instead of 8 on BF and increase the power damage of the individual hits. There. Fixed. Not that hard. In the end, anything is and ahould better than stacking MH weapons.

 

For on Sword Vulnerability... yeah, sure. Hardly a concern, though, at least in my opinion. If you want to stack multipliers you will have to run Domination and have enough Vulnerability anyway. So the only scenario where this matters is solo Sw/x without Domination. And even then I'm not sure whether it would be imbalanced. 

[draxynnic.3719]

6 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

In the end, anything is and ahould better than stacking MH weapons.

Yeah, the number of mesmer builds around nowadays that rely on doubling up on the same autoattack-capable weapon to function is starting to get frustrating. First it was alacmirage (which could have been done much more elegantly by making the boon application, or at least the alacrity, a GM trait to replace Dune Cloak), and now condi virtuoso (staff and sceptre are weakened by the loss of clones, while greatsword 2-4 skills being blades is cute from a thematic consistency perspective but really don't turn greatsword into a hybrid weapon). 

[Xaylin.1860]

1 minute ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

(which could have been done much more elegantly by making the boon application, or at least the alacrity, a GM trait to replace Dune Cloak)

Personally, still hoping for such a rework. 

 

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

while greatsword 2-4 skills being blades is cute from a thematic consistency perspective but really don't turn greatsword into a hybrid weapon

Probably not. But if I'm being honest, getting a functional melee weapon is way more interesting anyway from a condi perspective. For power GS is quite nice already and the blade trigger doesn't do much for power at this point anyway.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Personally, still hoping for such a rework. 

 

Probably not. But if I'm being honest, getting a functional melee weapon is way more interesting anyway from a condi perspective. For power GS is quite nice already and the blade trigger doesn't do much for power at this point anyway.

Agreed. I'm pretty sure the greatsword skills being blades was done purely for thematic reasons, not because they thought it was really a significant boost to greatsword. In fact, it's possible they did it precisely because it wasn't a significant boost.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Playing devil's advocate, having sword/X and dagger/X could outstrip dagger alone, even if dagger alone surpasses sword alone, if switching to sword, using Blurred Frenzy twice, and back to dagger again allows for better damage than remaining on dagger alone. I'm sceptical that this would happen to to the flurry on the third hit of Flying Cutter and the short recharge of Bladecall, but it's possible it might pull just a little ahead. Haven't done the numbers.

Counting as blades would also be a buff to sword's ability to inflict vulnerability, even on power builds. Probably not a big deal for PvE, but it might be an issue in competitive.

An issue in competitive for a spec that is extremely far from being meta?

Edited April 4, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741