Virtuoso. What heal are you using

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, celestia.3829 said:

Condi virt needs to critcap to deal good damage. In an ow situation you will not have acsess to important bufffs required to crit cap - such as banners and spotter. Every % of critcap your missing is almost directly % less damage. Additionally OP is probally not using the ideal gear for condi virt ( a very unusual mix on rampagers and vipers.) They would be much better of on something like cele sig mirage

Whoever said you need to cap crit, 60% of your damage comes from bleeds and another 10% comes from torment so only 30% of your damage even benefits from 100% critical chance. 

My rule is get 75% then you can F1 Bladsong at 100% critical chance with the Illusion grandmaster. I can get 35k dps in fractals with this my build without full raid buffs. 

[mungozen.2379]

32 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Whoever said you need to cap crit, 60% of your damage comes from bleeds and another 10% comes from torment so only 30% of your damage even benefits from 100% critical chance. 

My rule is get 75% then you can F1 Bladsong at 100% critical chance with the Illusion grandmaster. I can get 35k dps in fractals with this my build without full raid buffs. 

Oh Mell.....

Jagged Mind states: Blade attacks inflict bleeding on critical hits.

Ergo, the more Crit you have, the more Bleeds you stack from Blade attacks.

Your build with 75% Crit with Fury means that 25% of your Blade attacks do not Crit and therefore, do not stack Bleed.

When you consider that Bloodsong stocks a Blade whenever you hit 5 stacks of Bleeding, you are also hurting your Blade generation.

 

[mungozen.2379]

3 hours ago, celestia.3829 said:

No, look at the budget variant. 

You'll have to link me to some budget Virtuoso builds since I couldn't find anything.

[Mell.4873]

removed

Edited April 6, 2022 by Mell.4873

[mungozen.2379]

12 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

True I should have stated it better since the build assumes you don't have fury generation due to taking Inspiration and not dueling so this makes up for it (well not completely). I have 2 dagger types one with accuracy and one without for fractals which I take dueling for.

Its a confusing build but the gist is you only need 75% critical chance for the opening sequence of attacks and then from then on you should have 100% critical chance.

I think this is the third time I'll ask but, can use g2wskills to link your actual build?  You talk a lot about your build but it is always just a little different each time and seems to change to suit the conversation at hand.  That you are running 75% Crit without Fury seems like wasted stats.

[Mell.4873]

25 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I think this is the third time I'll ask but, can use g2wskills to link your actual build?  You talk a lot about your build but it is always just a little different each time and seems to change to suit the conversation at hand.  That you are running 75% Crit without Fury seems like wasted stats.

Okay my original statement is true run 75% critical chance since its impossible to have 100% bleed duration and 100% critical chance at the same time without infusions.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Mell.4873

[mungozen.2379]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Okay my original statement is true run 75% critical chance since its impossible to have 100% bleed duration and 100% critical chance at the same time without infusions.

Full Rampager Gear gives you just over 70% Crit and Fury 30% = 100% Crit

Rune of the Krait 50%, Chaotic Persistence (Chaos Trait line) 18%, Sharpening Sorrow (Virtuoso Trait line) 10%, Signet of Midnight 12%, Plate of Kimchi Pancakes 15% = 105% Bleed Duration (although Condi Duration caps out at 100%)

So, yes, you can get 100% Crit and Bleed duration without Infusions or Sigils, assuming you spend the Silver on the Plate of Kimchi Pancakes.

Now, consider two scenarios, with 1 you have 75% Crit and 100% Bleed (Jagged Mind - 275 Damage over 10 seconds), and with 2 you have 100% Crit and 75% Bleed (Jagged Mind - 242 Damage over 8.75 seconds). You attack a single target Golem only with Dagger 1 AA for 90 seconds.  Accounting for the Flurry on the third strike, you are causing 6 Blade hits every 1.5 seconds, or 360 Blade hits in 90 seconds.

Scenario 1 - 360 Hits * 75% Crit = 270 Bleed stacks (275 Damage over 10 seconds) generating a total of 74250 Damage.  You also stock 54 Blades with Bloodsong and 2227.5 Healing from Jagged Mind.

Scenario 2 - 360 Hits * 100% Crit = 360 Bleed stacks (242 Damage over 8.75 seconds) generating a total of 87120 Damage.  You also stock 72 Blades with Bloodsong and 2613.6 Healing from Jagged Mind.

Which would you rather take?  The one that deals more damage and stocks more Blades or the one that doesn't?

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Full Rampager Gear gives you just over 70% Crit and Fury 30% = 100% Crit

Rune of the Krait 50%, Chaotic Persistence (Chaos Trait line) 18%, Sharpening Sorrow (Virtuoso Trait line) 10%, Signet of Midnight 12%, Plate of Kimchi Pancakes 15% = 105% Bleed Duration (although Condi Duration caps out at 100%)

So, yes, you can get 100% Crit and Bleed duration without Infusions or Sigils, assuming you spend the Silver on the Plate of Kimchi Pancakes.

Now, consider two scenarios, with 1 you have 75% Crit and 100% Bleed (Jagged Mind - 275 Damage over 10 seconds), and with 2 you have 100% Crit and 75% Bleed (Jagged Mind - 242 Damage over 8.75 seconds). You attack a single target Golem only with Dagger 1 AA for 90 seconds.  Accounting for the Flurry on the third strike, you are causing 6 Blade hits every 1.5 seconds, or 360 Blade hits in 90 seconds.

Scenario 1 - 360 Hits * 75% Crit = 270 Bleed stacks (275 Damage over 10 seconds) generating a total of 74250 Damage.  You also stock 54 Blades with Bloodsong and 2227.5 Healing from Jagged Mind.

Scenario 2 - 360 Hits * 100% Crit = 360 Bleed stacks (242 Damage over 8.75 seconds) generating a total of 87120 Damage.  You also stock 72 Blades with Bloodsong and 2613.6 Healing from Jagged Mind.

Which would you rather take?  The one that deals more damage and stocks more Blades or the one that doesn't?

 

 

 

I mean this is very similar to my build minus the full Rampagers, instead I have half vipers so I don't have to use the Chaos Trait line.

I can eat lots of precision/Condi Duration food but its so expensive so I would rather just run 100% bleed duration and then 90% critical chance (in fractals I can boost it to 100%).

This is my build though http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABg2hrhVMklglrVb8H-zRRYmBXEvwIqC6SB/JZxNA-e

Edited April 6, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Ombras.2853]

Except the general accepted builds already don’t run Chaos.

Chaos is even worse for open world, since in instanced content you get regeneration from your allies, making it a more-than-decent choice, but for OW is simply bad.

ps: the dueling traits you choose are a mess, they are PvP choices for OW content.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Ombras.2853

[Za Shaloc.3908]

6 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Except the general accepted builds already don’t run Chaos.

Chaos is even worse for open world, since in instanced content you get regeneration from your allies, making it a more-than-decent choice, but for OW is simply bad.

ps: the dueling traits you choose are a mess, they are PvP choices for OW content.

 

In my experience, Chaos works really well for OW EoD content because of the offensive/defensive protocol buffs (I think it's the defensive that gives regen),  in terms of trash mobs at least. That combined with the damage reduction made it feel superior to Dueling for me, but again this is for EoD OW content only.

[Mell.4873]

5 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

In my experience, Chaos works really well for OW EoD content because of the offensive/defensive protocol buffs (I think it's the defensive that gives regen),  in terms of trash mobs at least. That combined with the damage reduction made it feel superior to Dueling for me, but again this is for EoD OW content only.

I might try it, the good thing about rely on food buffs is it gives you a little room to move traits around.

[celestia.3829]

9 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

You'll have to link me to some budget Virtuoso builds since I couldn't find anything.

snowcrows...

[mungozen.2379]

8 hours ago, celestia.3829 said:

snowcrows...

Thanks for clarifying.  Regardless of which build you run, if you do not have Spotter, Banner or Writ, you will have to make that up somewhere along the line as we all agree that Crit Capping is important for Condi Virtuoso to operate.  The budget guide suggests changing gear and food to meet the 70% Crit target.

When building for Solo OW, there are plenty of options available for reaching 70% Crit, even by tweaking the builds Snowcrows suggests.

Quote

Achiving critcap on virt without spotter etc requires sacrificing massive amounts of dps to take different gear.

You are going to take a DPS loss regardless of where you are playing if you do not have Spotter or Banner.  Fractals and Raids can build the group comp to optimize each players performance.  Solo OW doesn't have that benefit, and as such players need to adjust the build suitably.  I mean, I wouldn't expect Raid or Fractal performance on any Profession if I was playing solo, would you?

9 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Except the general accepted builds already don’t run Chaos.

Chaos is even worse for open world, since in instanced content you get regeneration from your allies, making it a more-than-decent choice, but for OW is simply bad.

Chaos is a totally fine alternative to Dueling in Open World content.  It provides better defenses and sustain, which may be of greater value than extra DPS.  If you are say, soloing a PoF Champ Bounty, having that defense and sustain baked into the build smooths out the hits you are inevitably going to take and can keep you going.

Running Chaos against a Golem I can hit 14k DPS self buffed (as in, no additional Boons or Condis).  This DPS bears out against single target mobs in OW, and I would think is a fairly good DPS rate for OW.  Swapping to Dueling would potentially increase that DPS but I personally do not feel I would need more DPS at the loss of everything Chaos can bring.

I really do not like dying in any content, and in OW, where you go from Solo to PuG groups to Zergs and back, having some self sufficiency goes a long way.

9 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I can eat lots of precision/Condi Duration food but its so expensive so I would rather just run 100% bleed duration and then 90% critical chance (in fractals I can boost it to 100%).

This is my build though http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABg2hrhVMklglrVb8H-zRRYmBXEvwIqC6SB/JZxNA-e

Thanks for finally sharing the build.  You are right, this is a bit confusing.  The reason I showed the Crit v Bleed math was to highlight that being able to hit 100% Critical is far more valuable than 100% Bleed duration.  However the build you linked appears to get there with Spotter and Banner.  Yet, if you don't have those buffs in your group, you are just losing DPS, Blades and Heals.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364
Mistakes were made, and amended

[Ombras.2853]

…why would SC provide an Exotic armor variant?

The budget part comes from not using the Writ, which makes you pay like 1,5 g for each 30 minutes of playing.

The vast majority of people on CVirtuoso (myself included) play the “budget” variant in end game pve, where budget doesn’t stand for “if you don’t have enough money to gear yourself optimally”.

[mungozen.2379]

49 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

…why would SC provide an Exotic armor variant?

The budget part comes from not using the Writ, which makes you pay like 1,5 g for each 30 minutes of playing.

The vast majority of people on CVirtuoso (myself included) play the “budget” variant in end game pve, where budget doesn’t stand for “if you don’t have enough money to gear yourself optimally”.

I am editing my prior post.  When I thought Budget I assumed Exotic, I didn't even register that I was looking at Ascended gear when on the page.

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

 Thanks for finally sharing the build.  You are right, this is a bit confusing.  The reason I showed the Crit v Bleed math was to highlight that being able to hit 100% Critical is far more valuable than 100% Bleed duration.  However the build you linked appears to get there with Spotter and Banner.  Yet, if you don't have those buffs in your group, you are just losing DPS, Blades and Heals.

The build does not rely on Spotter or Banners although I see extra critical damage which is not reflected in game which is weird. 

[Ombras.2853]

5 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

 

Chaos is a totally fine alternative to Dueling in Open World content.  It provides better defenses and sustain, which may be of greater value than extra DPS.  If you are say, soloing a PoF Champ Bounty, having that defense and sustain baked into the build smooths out the hits you are inevitably going to take and can keep you going.

Mmm, I’m not sure if I’m the one misunderstanding or viceversa. Anyway, I was referring to the general damage output you can can deal in OW, not talking about how good the build for OW is. Chaos is and has always been a very decent choice for OW due to the survivability it adds, so nothing wrong with going for it if damage doesn’t matter.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Healing is quite simple really, there are only like 3 heals relevant to Virtuoso, Signet of Healing, Ether Feast, and Twin Blade Restoration.

Each of them functions however you seem fit:

Signet of Healing : (PvE) Allows passive healing pair with condi Virtuoso this is pretty much a I don't need to press heal. (Competitive) Probably your best option, with the aegis trait, whenever you dodge/block an attack you automatically summon 3 blades which counts as 3 "clones" this is a mini burst of heal per 3 sec, but there is a bug in which I am not sure if they fix but only caps at 3 blades rather then 5.

Ether Feast : (PvE + Competitive) its just a burst of heal, nothing much to be said its a very simple effective skill scaling based on blades, again could be capped at 3 blades atm.

Twin Blade : (PvE) Extra damage, (Competitive) really no point in bringing this compared to Signet of Healing, unsure if you still need to target in order to use, but Signet of healing offers way too much paired with Insp traitline.

 

There is no DEEP thought or endless discussion, its very simple. Just use what you need at the moment of the time.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Levetty.1279]

On 4/6/2022 at 10:18 AM, celestia.3829 said:

snowcrows...

Out of interest what is the benchmark of the budget version?

[Ombras.2853]

21 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Out of interest what is the benchmark of the budget version?

Around 39k.

I do 37k on the golem without infusions and with a pair of non-optimal gear pieces, so the maths is pretty much that.

[Ashen.2907]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:43 PM, Lethion.8745 said:

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read in this forum.

You havent read enough.

[Mell.4873]

23 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Around 39k.

I do 37k on the golem without infusions and with a pair of non-optimal gear pieces, so the maths is pretty much that.

Im at 35k but I have a super budget build. 

[JunkJunk.8971]

Ok.  Even using signet for a week as Condi virtuoso.    It sucks.   No sustained healing 

[Mell.4873]

On 4/14/2022 at 9:58 AM, JunkJunk.8971 said:

Ok.  Even using signet for a week as Condi virtuoso.    It sucks.   No sustained healing 

And here I am playing Virtuoso healer in PvE content. I mean when I run guild mates through dungeons especially I play Virtuoso + Inspiration. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Ombras.2853]

Melo, as much as I appreciate the way you present your reasonings (calmly and without going berserker like a lot of us), I’m sorry but that’s the truth. You keep calling end game content stuff like t1 Fractals, which are basically open world difficulty. That’s not end game content in the slightest, and for that kind of content you can literally play whatever (the fact you slam Inspiration on Virtuoso and it is “okay” says a lot about it, since Inspiration is something you NEVER want to play in instanced content).
It’s not about agreeing or disagreeing. PvE End game content are Raids, Strikes and t4 Fractals. Other than that, you can play whatever.