Main Hand Dagger Condition

[Obtena.7952]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the latest PoF pre-release pretty much says it all. My favourite part is when Anet confirms that they make changes that reward

skilled use

of toolsets, something a condi buffed dagger doesn't do. THAT is worth remembering the next time someone suggests a change.

Do you seriously think running scepter on both weapon sets is "skilled use"

Having a reason to run something other than scepter would increase the complexity of the class.

newsflash those changes where only because of WvW zerg combat, and scourge as a whole just got destroyed as far as PvE and sPvP are concerned.

See, this is what Anet means when they say skilled use. You do have other reasons to run weapons that aren't Scepter ... skilled players know that and know how and when to do it to.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the latest PoF pre-release pretty much says it all. My favourite part is when Anet confirms that they make changes that reward

skilled use

of toolsets, something a condi buffed dagger doesn't do. THAT is worth remembering the next time someone suggests a change.

Do you seriously think running scepter on both weapon sets is "skilled use"

Having a reason to run something other than scepter would increase the complexity of the class.

newsflash those changes where only because of WvW zerg combat, and scourge as a whole just got destroyed as far as PvE and sPvP are concerned.

See, this is what Anet means when they say skilled use. You do have other reasons to run weapons that aren't Scepter ... and skilled players know that.

Funny how it's those that are frequenting the competitive areas of the game that say Scourge will be camping Scepter...

[Obtena.7952]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the latest PoF pre-release pretty much says it all. My favourite part is when Anet confirms that they make changes that reward

skilled use

of toolsets, something a condi buffed dagger doesn't do. THAT is worth remembering the next time someone suggests a change.

Do you seriously think running scepter on both weapon sets is "skilled use"

Having a reason to run something other than scepter would increase the complexity of the class.

newsflash those changes where only because of WvW zerg combat, and scourge as a whole just got destroyed as far as PvE and sPvP are concerned.

See, this is what Anet means when they say skilled use. You do have other reasons to run weapons that aren't Scepter ... and skilled players know that.

Funny how it's those that are frequenting the competitive areas of the game that say Scourge will be camping Scepter...

Well, not everyone wants to use their toolset skillfully; some would rather faceroll and win. /shrug

[Crinn.7864]

@Obtena.7952 said:See, this is what Anet means when they say skilled use. You do have other reasons to run weapons that aren't Scepter ... skilled players know that and know how and when to do it to.

I don't think you realize how bad other weapon options are. Dagger and Staff in their current state are completely and utterly incapable of doing any kind of competitive damage. Scepter is the only option available because it's the only weapon capable of doing competitive damage compared to what other classes do.

A scourge running dagger will be doing trash tier damage. A scourge running scepter will be mediocre.

[Kam.4092]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the latest PoF pre-release pretty much says it all. My favourite part is when Anet confirms that they make changes that reward

skilled use

of toolsets, something a condi buffed dagger doesn't do. THAT is worth remembering the next time someone suggests a change.

Do you seriously think running scepter on both weapon sets is "skilled use"

Having a reason to run something other than scepter would increase the complexity of the class.

newsflash those changes where only because of WvW zerg combat, and scourge as a whole just got destroyed as far as PvE and sPvP are concerned.

See, this is what Anet means when they say skilled use. You do have other reasons to run weapons that aren't Scepter ... and skilled players know that.

Funny how it's those that are frequenting the competitive areas of the game that say Scourge will be camping Scepter...

I only see Scepter being camped on long Raid Fights. Scourge will have multiple weapon sets it can use for different content. Like Scepter/Dagger and Dagger/Torch, or Scepter/Torch and Staff, or Scepter/Dagger and Scepter/Torch.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't think you realize that this release isn't a balancing patch for all the other bad weapons. Appeals to how bad damage are; better save them ... in the small chance that Anet actually wants to waste their time chasing meta. Did anyone think that Anet was going to actually slip in a change not related to the new elites a month before PoF release?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the latest PoF pre-release pretty much says it all. My favourite part is when Anet confirms that they make changes that reward

skilled use

of toolsets, something a condi buffed dagger doesn't do. THAT is worth remembering the next time someone suggests a change.

Do you seriously think running scepter on both weapon sets is "skilled use"

Having a reason to run something other than scepter would increase the complexity of the class.

newsflash those changes where only because of WvW zerg combat, and scourge as a whole just got destroyed as far as PvE and sPvP are concerned.

See, this is what Anet means when they say skilled use. You do have other reasons to run weapons that aren't Scepter ... and skilled players know that.

Funny how it's those that are frequenting the competitive areas of the game that say Scourge will be camping Scepter...

Well, not everyone wants to use their toolset skillfully; some would rather faceroll and win. /shrug

If the highest reward is from a lower effort, then yeah. If you get the best results from the least complex, then yes.

But those that actually try at competition are far more likely to be "skilled" than those who do not. And those who try for competition are pretty universal in agreement that you get the best results from just camping Scepter, despite asking for a more complex rotation to get better results.

@Kam.4092 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Funny how it's those that are frequenting the competitive areas of the game that say Scourge will be camping Scepter...

I only see Scepter being camped on long Raid Fights. Scourge will have multiple weapon sets it can use for different content. Like Scepter/Dagger and Dagger/Torch, or Scepter/Torch and Staff, or Scepter/Dagger and Scepter/Torch.

Well, yeah, because in WvW and PvP, you need utility more than DPS. You're not trying to churn through millions of health on another player, or even most open world mobs.

[Obtena.7952]

Seems to me that there isn't universal agreement based on the changes Anet are making.

[Kam.4092]

@Obtena.7952 said:Seems to me that there isn't universal agreement based on the changes Anet are making.

You are one hell of a white knight kid. It's impressive.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

"And those who try for competition are pretty universal in agreement"

ANet devs do not try for competition when it comes to Necro.

[Obtena.7952]

No not really. I was opposed to the ideas presented in this thread from the start, even in the old forums. Seems to me that whatever Anet was planning simply coincided with some of my own and others thinking as well. That's not white knighting ... that's just understanding the game, like I've been saying since the beginning. Don't be bitter, just take this as a bit of learning. It's great insight to how Anet devs think and how they do things.

[Kam.4092]

@Obtena.7952 said:No not really. I was opposed to the ideas presented in this thread from the start, even in the old forums. Seems to me that whatever Anet was planning simply coincided with some of my own and others thinking as well. That's not white knighting ... that's just understanding the game, like I've been saying since the beginning. Don't be bitter, just take this as a bit of learning. It's great insight to how Anet devs think and how they do things.

Reading what you type makes my brain constipated.

[Vitali.5039]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lily.1935 said:From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch.

That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger?

Completely agree. The whole problem is that the starting point was the suggestion ... the issues that it would fix are listed after. This leads to a solution to a problem that is not optimal; it simply tries to justify the suggestion by appealing to a sense of addressing a current issue, making it likeable.

Sadly the LF problem comes from the need of doing competitive dps and taking blood magic to improve dagger's dps (and ruin the overall dps) only lead to mediocre damaging builds.

More choices + 0 improvements = fail

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lily.1935 said:From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch.

That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger?

Completely agree. The whole problem is that the starting point was the suggestion ... the issues that it would fix are listed after. This leads to a solution to a problem that is not optimal; it simply tries to justify the suggestion by appealing to a sense of addressing a current issue, making it likeable.

and taking blood magic to improve dagger's dps???

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lily.1935 said:From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch.

That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger?

Completely agree. The whole problem is that the starting point was the suggestion ... the issues that it would fix are listed after. This leads to a solution to a problem that is not optimal; it simply tries to justify the suggestion by appealing to a sense of addressing a current issue, making it likeable.

and taking blood magic to improve dagger's dps???

I think that was in reference to Lily's suggestion where bleeds get tied to Quickening Thirst.

[Vitali.5039]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lily.1935 said:From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch.

That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger?

Completely agree. The whole problem is that the starting point was the suggestion ... the issues that it would fix are listed after. This leads to a solution to a problem that is not optimal; it simply tries to justify the suggestion by appealing to a sense of addressing a current issue, making it likeable.

and taking blood magic to improve dagger's dps???

I think that was in reference to Lily's suggestion where bleeds get tied to Quickening Thirst.

^This

[Kam.4092]

You need Curses for Condition though.

[Aktium.9506]

@Obtena.7952 said:No not really. I was opposed to the ideas presented in this thread from the start, even in the old forums. Seems to me that whatever Anet was planning simply coincided with some of my own and others thinking as well. That's not white knighting ... that's just understanding the game, like I've been saying since the beginning. Don't be bitter, just take this as a bit of learning. It's great insight to how Anet devs think and how they do things.

This might come as a shock to you, but, Anet devs are pretty terrible at their own game. They have on numerous occasions shown that they're very oblivious when it comes to knowing their own game. Case in point, that one dev pointing out that you can use Sand Swell to teleport people to updrafts on Gorseval. It's laughable really. Of course, credit where it's due, they've gotten a lot better at balancing, but many changes are still lackluster.

I'm also going to call you out. You really do not seem to have any manner of wish to see Necro compete with other classes in content where it matters, so I must surmise that you either do not main Necro or that you simply don't play raids or try to reach legendary each PvP season. You might not care if Scourge ends up being sub 30k dps trash with no worthwhile support in raids and a free kill in ranked. But I actually do.

I've played the vast majority of my 8000 hours on Necro. 7/16 of my characters are Necromancers. I do not want to feel bad when I do my weekly raid clears knowing full well that I could be more much more beneficial to my static on any other class in the game. I have no wish to get told to either re-roll or suffer through a teammate in PvP AFKing because I refused, knowing myself that I should have re-rolled to something better. Because I will not switch, I blatantly refuse to ever do so. I do not enjoy the other classes and they do not feel like my class. But nevertheless I will end up feeling punished for sticking with the class I've stuck with for more than 5 years now.

[kKagari.6804]

It is well known that he only does open world PvE, and probably fractals.

[That Guy.5704]

@Coffietire.2783 said:Change the 3rd minor trait on scourge so that each strike with a weapon skill that grants life force has a chance to bleed on hit and you receive a little less damage for each damaging condition on your foe.

(I know there has been alot of discussion since this specific post, but just chiming in on that) I just came here to suggest basically the same thing, except in a slightly different way. In Soul Reaping, Merge Last Grasp (spectral armor when health drops below the threshold) into Spectral mastery (seems thematically fitting) and have the second minor in soul reaping apply conditions on skills that grant lifeforce. I'd like it to be 100% chance, but probably at a similarly balanced total bleed uptime to whatever you had in mind with the chance. Bleed is a good necro type skill, however torment does seem a little more fitting for when your "lifeforce is taken"

[Obtena.7952]

@Aktium.9506 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:No not really. I was opposed to the ideas presented in this thread from the start, even in the old forums. Seems to me that whatever Anet was planning simply coincided with some of my own and others thinking as well. That's not white knighting ... that's just understanding the game, like I've been saying since the beginning. Don't be bitter, just take this as a bit of learning. It's great insight to how Anet devs think and how they do things.

This might come as a shock to you, but, Anet devs are pretty terrible at their own game. They have on numerous occasions shown that they're very oblivious when it comes to knowing their own game. Case in point, that one dev pointing out that you can use Sand Swell to teleport people to updrafts on Gorseval. It's laughable really. Of course, credit where it's due, they've gotten a lot better at balancing, but many changes are still lackluster.

I'm also going to call you out. You really do not seem to have any manner of wish to see Necro compete with other classes in content where it matters, so I must surmise that you either do not main Necro or that you simply don't play raids or try to reach legendary each PvP season. You might not care if Scourge ends up being sub 30k dps trash with no worthwhile support in raids and a free kill in ranked. But I actually do.

I've played the vast majority of my 8000 hours on Necro. 7/16 of my characters are Necromancers. I do not want to feel bad when I do my weekly raid clears knowing full well that I could be more much more beneficial to my static on any other class in the game. I have no wish to get told to either re-roll or suffer through a teammate in PvP AFKing because I refused, knowing myself that I should have re-rolled to something better. Because I will not switch, I blatantly refuse to ever do so. I do not enjoy the other classes and they do not feel like

my

class. But nevertheless I will end up feeling punished for sticking with the class I've stuck with for more than 5 years now.

It's not a shock to me at all. The only difference is that I recognize that they are the ones in control of this game and they show a very consistent behavior when they change it... a behaviour that every single person supporting this idea was ignoring.

Call me out all you want; that doesn't change anything. What differentiates me from you is that I'm not willing to settle for any poorly thought out suggestion just because I'm desperate to see something get better. The ideas to make sense ... because as Anet just demonstrated, they implemented some changes that addressed one of the problems that people were talking about. So if you don't be honest and pose your problem and present your idea properly and it doesn't pass muster ... you get what we just saw happen yesterday. The whole idea that Anet would take a condi dagger route to solve a LF regen problem on Scourge made no sense, primarily because having condi on dagger doesn't do anything different for LF regen than vanilla dagger does. That should be obvious and it seems to me that Anet did recognize the LF regen on Scourge ... but they sure did take a much more sensible way to solve it.

But that's OK, you keep on believing that I'm just here to ruin your chances of making Necro viable, or whatever else you want to accuse me of.

[Crinn.7864]

@Obtena.7952 said:It's not a shock to me at all. The only difference is that I recognize that they are the ones in control of this game and they show a very consistent behavior when they change it... a behaviour that every single person supporting this idea was ignoring.

Call me out all you want; that doesn't change anything. What differentiates me from you is that I'm not willing to settle for any poorly thought out suggestion. It has to make sense ... because as Anet just demonstrated, they actually implemented some changes that addressed one of the problems that people were talking about. So if you don't be honest and pose your problem and present your idea properly and it doesn't pass muster ... you get what we just saw happen yesterday.

But that's OK, you keep on believing that I'm just here to ruin your chances of making Necro viable, or whatever else you want to accuse me of.

Except the proposed changes to add bleeding to dagger auto are consistent with what ArenaNet has already done. ArenaNet already added bleeding related modifiers to the weapon, and Dagger's associated traitline Blood Magic already has procs dependant on bleed stacks.

In fact it strikes me has horribly inconsistent to have bleeding modifiers on a weaponset that doesn't apply bleeding. Especially once you consider that every other weaponset that has similar modifiers has the means to meet those modifiers native to the weapon.

Necro Scepter3 scales off of condis on target, and Scepter 1 and 2 both apply condis.Necro Axe2 gains a bonus damage modifier per stack of vuln on target, and Axe 1 natively applies vuln.Thief Shortbow 4 has a poison stack threshold, and that very same weapon applies poison.

Every case of a weaponskill with conditional procs is able to meet those conditional procs just from other skills on the weapon. But there is one exception:Necro dagger 2 has a damage modifier against bleeding foes, Yet dagger cannot apply bleeding.

[Obtena.7952]

I think there are really good reasons to have bleed modifires on a weaponset that doesn't apply bleeding;the primary one is going back to skilled use of tools. I'm so glad the dev made that extremely clear in his post of the pre-release changes. There is NO skilled use of a skill that has a bleed advantage when the occurrence of applying a bleed on the SAME WEAPON is very high. I've made this point before.

The only exception is that those already exist and are not valid reasons to add bleed to dagger.

[Kam.4092]

You need Curses for Condition though. > @Obtena.7952 said:

I think there are really good reasons to have bleed modifires on a weaponset that doesn't apply bleeding;the primary one is going back to skilled use of tools. I'm so glad the dev made that extremely clear in his post of the pre-release changes. There is NO skilled use of a skill that has a bleed advantage when the occurrence of applying a bleed on the SAME WEAPON is very high. I've made this point before.

The only exception is that those already exist and are not valid reasons to add bleed to dagger.

Do you want us to clap for you? You seem to feel really happy about yourself.

[Crinn.7864]

@Obtena.7952 said:I think there are really good reasons to have bleed modifires on a weaponset that doesn't apply bleeding;the primary one is going back to skilled use of tools. I'm so glad the dev made that extremely clear in his post of the pre-release changes. There is NO skilled use of a skill that has a bleed advantage when the occurrence of applying a bleed on the SAME WEAPON is very high. I've made this point before.

The only exception is that those already exist and are not valid reasons to add bleed to dagger.

Then please explain to me WHY EVERY OTHER WEAPONSET WITH CONDITIONAL MODIFIERS CAN MEET THOSE CONDITIONS NATIVELY.

Also skilled use of available tools would be to not use dagger because the weapon in its current state is subpar in all situations compared to other options.

The only thing ArenaNet is consistent on is their ability to be consistently inconsistent.