Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

why do you think this is incorrect in pve? I think this in entirely the point that you're missing. Stomping ambient mobs for 5 years is not deserving of the same reward as trying and succeeding in beating the most challenging content - it's not like its even locked behind CMs!

What reason is there to lock QoL behind challenge?

I understand shiny skins, titles, achievement score, tonics, etc.

I understand showing off your skill and achievements just fine.

But why lock QoL behind challenge rather than effort? 

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That's just the reward system differences comming from "competitive vs cooperative" differentiation.

So, competitive participation trophies are fine. Cooperative ones are not?^^

Edited April 11, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok, so it wasn't about wrong marks, but about no marks at all. At that point it was nothing more than your learning experience. You didn't know something, now you do. Next time you can mark the wall before the fight starts and... That's it? Instead you've went through that learning experience and decided "nah, now that I know this thing I didn't know before, I guess I won't be doing it anymore"? Come on.

I had marked the walls. But some people didn't move, some split up.

And the response was that I didn't mark or call when and where to go. Which I though to be a fair point. But one that I can not accommodate.

Fair, unlike you suggesting yet again that I'm lazy and unwilling to learn. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

What reason is there to lock QoL behind challenge?

⏬

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

to reward long term commitment

.

Quote

But why lock QoL behind challenge rather than effort? 

Uh, this again...

Challenge requires effort. These terms are so closely related that you trying to differentiate between them claiming one is good and the other isn't is just grasping at straws. And if you want to be rewarded for effort... wvw/pvp?

18 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

So, competitive participation trophies are fine. Cooperative ones are not?^^

When two teams compete, they can't all win. When people play cooperative modes, they all win as a group ^^ Yes, there is a pretty obvious difference between these modes and that difference results in having different reward systems.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Challenge requires effort. These terms are so closely related that you trying to differentiate between them claiming one is good and the other isn't is just grasping at straws.

Challenge requires effort. But more things cost effort than just going into raids as 10 people. Aurora, Coalescence and Prismatic Champion's Regalia all take different kinds of effort without being challenging in regards to high DPS or high boon uptime. 

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

When two teams compete, they can't all win. When people cooperative, they all win ^^ Yes, there is a pretty obvious difference between these modes.

But neither WvW armor nor PvP armor require any definition of a "win". They don't even require killing a single player ever, technically speaking. You are literally rewarded for participating. All losers are progressing towards legendary armor at a very steady pace. Playing well speeds the process up. But it continues at a steady pace even when doing nothing constructive. 

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I had marked the walls. But some people didn't move, some split up.

Ah, I misunderstood(?) since in your previous post you wrote "Failing to kill the wall. I didn't mark the wall everyone should move to early enough", so it really seemed as if you were trying to mark it while in combat, but did it too late so people didn't know where to go or something. But thanks for clarification.

15 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

And the response was that I didn't mark or call when and where to go. Which I though to be a fair point. But one that I can not accommodate.

Fair, unlike you suggesting yet again that I'm lazy and unwilling to learn. 

I never suggested you're lazy or unwilling to learn, even moreso "yet again", stop making up stuff. Though I don't understand how you can not accommodate to putting one mark before the fight. Because that's all it boils down to. I fail to see how that's such a huge obstacle that you somehow can't do it.

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Challenge requires effort. But more things cost effort than just going into raids as 10 people. Aurora, Coalescence and Prismatic Champion's Regalia all take different kinds of effort without being challenging in regards to high DPS or high boon uptime. 

But you've said in your previous posts that doing the same is boring and shouldn't be a thing. You've said legendary armor should lead you through the game. Here's the thing: legendary armor itself doesn't lead you through the game, but acquiring full legendary gear does. And apparently... That's still bad, because you want it easier/faaster/in content you already play anyways.

Quote

But neither WvW armor nor PvP armor require any definition of a "win". They don't even require killing a single player ever, technically speaking. You are literally rewarded for participating. All losers are progressing towards legendary armor at a very steady pace. Playing well speeds the process up. But it continues at a steady pace even when doing nothing constructive. 

Exactly, they don't require any definition of a win, because if they did, only one team out of 3 could potentially win. Or one person out of a "duel". Or one group out of a group fight. That is why the reward system is different there, what do you not understand about what I'm saying here (and in the previous post)?

I'm trying to explain to you "why the reward systems are different between these modes" and what you responded with to me is... "but the reward systems are different!". Yes, yes they are. I was never trying to argue with that, it is obvious that they are different, but apparently it's not obvious to you why they are different. And, again, why they are different is all I'm explaining to you.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Peterson.5172]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And if you want to be rewarded for effort... wvw/pvp?

When two teams compete, they can't all win. When people play cooperative modes, they all win as a group ^^ Yes, there is a pretty obvious difference between these modes and that difference results in having different reward systems.

i dont know how pvp works, but for wvw, i've gone in there with firebrand, in soldier armor, in random support build, and just focused on staying alive/tagging enemies. wasnt helpful to the team at all, but i was getting max participation.

if i didnt find wvw so boring i wouldve gotten my legen armor there.

wvw can be challenging, but you can also be more braindead than open world and not lose out.

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, Peterson.5172 said:

i dont know how pvp works, but for wvw, i've gone in there with firebrand, in soldier armor, in random support build, and just focused on staying alive/tagging enemies. wasnt helpful to the team at all, but i was getting max participation.

Ok, which part of my post are you specififcally responding to?

And btw that's another good point. You can't kick a potential troll out of wvw (which again supports the participation trophy, rather than aiming strictly for some success rate), but you can kick a troll out of a squad.

Quote

if i didnt find wvw so boring i wouldve gotten my legen armor there.

wvw can be challenging, but you can also be more braindead than open world and not lose out.

Great! Then go get it. But you don't think it's worth the time/effort/whatever? Ok, that's also a perfectly valid option you can choose. I don't see how that's an issue.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[disco.9302]

21 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

So, competitive participation trophies are fine. Cooperative ones are not?^^

that's exactly correct. PVE content has a finite ceiling. You get to a point where you are good enough to beat the content and you complete it. PVP - it is impossible to ask any player to be better than ALL other players in this scenario. The level of challenge is not easily quantifiable nor is it fair to lock things behind "beat this player who has 20k hours more than you and continues to play more than you do". Comparatively, it is much easier to ask a player to beat a raid wing.

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Exactly, they don't require any definition of a win, because if they did, only one team out of 3 could potentially win. Or one person out of a "duel". Or one group out of a group fight. That is why the reward system is different there, what do you not understand about what I'm saying here (and in the previous post)?

So competitive players shouldn't need to succeed in order to progress? Because that's a large enough challenge to warrant legendary armor. But anything shy of consistent, full raid clears is no effort at all and shouldn't make any progress at all towards a long term goal?

No, I don't really understand that. I don't understand why competitive players don't have to be competitive and why PvE players are held to a higher standard. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Considering that just few posts back, right here, it has been pointed out that more people have Aurora than Legendary Armor, even though as you noticed legendary armor is cheaper (and an ascended armor more costly and harder to obtain for a huge majority of players than trinkets), the person "conveniently ignoring" something is not me, but you.

And I also noted that more people have done the collections for Aurora than Legendary armor, what's your point?

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And here, again, you are "conveniently ignoring" the point i have made before about legendary weapons, and how practically the only problem some players have is GoB, and not due to difficulty or effort involved (and that's even when we ignore that the people that complain about that part are a small minority)? I mean, people are suggesting to buy GoBs for gifts of  exploration, which require more effort, so obviously effort is not the issue here.

Cool, except this has nothing to do with what I said. I said nothing about stuff like GoB. I talked about the price of a Legendary item and the possible requirements to make one. You either make it kittening expensive or require items/collections for it that need effort.

14 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, most likely you'd need something to gate it. Probably something not purchasable. I see no problem with it. I'm quite sure most other players asking for it would not see a problem either, unless the gating would be significantly greater than that for WvW/SpVp versions.

That we agree on.

14 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Weapons also need gifts. Do you see people complaining about this? Because i don't. Apart from GoB, but see my previous comment on this one.

Don't slice my points up to respond in separate pieces to them. This was part of the gated currencies segment and I said nothing about people complaining about gifts.

14 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Following that argument, why are you not asking yourself is there any point in Raid legendary armor if it's even less popular than Aurora? Seems like a double standart to me.

Legendary armor was first available in PvE(Raids) and WvW with LWS3Ep5, it is not an afterthought, it was added WITH Raids, that's why you need W1-4 for it. PvP Legendary armor came about a year later.

If you find a solution that would not make any other Legendary armor worthless, but still make OW Legendary armor successful beyond these "unpopular" levels then feel free to share them.

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

that's exactly correct. PVE content has a finite ceiling. You get to a point where you are good enough to beat the content and you complete it. PVP - it is impossible to ask any player to be better than ALL other players in this scenario. The level of challenge is not easily quantifiable nor is it fair to lock things behind "beat this player who has 20k hours more than you and continues to play more than you do". Comparatively, it is much easier to ask a player to beat a raid wing.

But that means progress has absolutely 0 challenge?

Like, literally none!? That just means it's time commitment. Nothing else. 

Why is PvE held to a different standard? Why don't competitive players have to compete but cooperative players do? 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Erise.5614

[disco.9302]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

But that means progress has absolutely 0 challenge?

Like, literally none!? That just means it's time commitment. Nothing else. 

Why is PvE held to a different standard? Why don't competitive players have to compete but cooperative players do? 

because you can't regulate the challenge of pvp or wvw - it is dictated by the playerbase. How is this difficult to understand. PVE = fixed difficulty. PVP/WVW = wildly variable difficulty.

[Erise.5614]

Just now, disco.9302 said:

because you can't regulate the challenge of pvp or wvw - it is dictated by the playerbase. How is this difficult to understand. PVE = fixed difficulty. PVP/WVW = wildly variable difficulty.

I mean. Variable difficulty is due to matchmaking systems. Not an inherent feature of PvP. You can build systems that end up with close to 50% win rate if everyone seriously tries to win. 

And I understand that point fine. But the solution was to change the challenge from "wildly variable" to absolute zero. So long as you aren't literally AFK you will get a reward. 

No one in this thread is asking for legendary PvE armor with this little challenge behind it. With this little effort.

So I find it curious how people hold the simultaneous positions of "PvE armor should be the ultimate challenge that only the highest level of end game content should reward" and "PvP/WvW armor should have literally 0 challenge because it'd be annoying to lose"

[disco.9302]

7 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. Variable difficulty is due to matchmaking systems.

no it's not. Variable difficulty is other players being better/worse/equal in their ability to fight you.

 

8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

No one in this thread is asking for legendary PvE armor with this little challenge behind it. With this little effort.

you are. there is little challenge is travelling around all the maps farming plants or w/e collection you wanted to invent. If you think the "return to" achievements were the epitome of challenge, then that's where were disagree.

[mindcircus.1506]

4 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Though if you're scrapping together gold for your ascended or first legendary weapon or what not it's not appealing to be set back by half a dozen to a few dozen gold per build. It's not a large barrier. But you are setting yourself back for trying something out. 

If it is perfectly acceptable to raid in Exotic Armor (it is, most raid groups will absolutely take players in Exotic Armour, then why is Open World in need of Ascended to play with new builds?
Do you think that running raids is more profitable than Drizzlewood?
Open World PvE and it's high value metas is by far the most lucrative ingame activity it terms of time vs Money Spent.

 

4 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

I'm constantly strapped for money balancing equipping the different roles, grinding towards legendries and having "debt" by not updating builds. Spending ~100g on vipers or ~130g on celestial.

You are conflating the issue.
Why would you grind for 100g on a set of vipers when you could spend an hour in Verdant Brink and just craft the chest piece?

 

3 hours ago, Rinagal.9235 said:

I do have legendary armor (for every weight type), as well as all legendary trinkets, 6 legendary runes and 4 legendary sigils, and i did a lot of experimenting with spectre in OW at first weeks of EoD, i would never do (and never did before) such experimenting if i would have to interact with Mystic Forge and spend resources each time. So just my personal experience is already proves you wrong with your disingenuous and laughable statements. So please stop assuming for other players what they will or will not do, once they get legendary gear, and just go create another very original celestial build for open world.

Personal attack aside:
Since the launch of EoD I put together what I felt were servicable builds for 8 of the new Elite specs. I have no legendary armour for 6 of those. I have one Legendary Trinket.
I did not let that stop me.
2 out of the 6 were Celestial.

[Erise.5614]

36 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

no it's not. Variable difficulty is other players being better/worse/equal in their ability to fight you.

Matchmaking systems are perfectly capable of dealing with that. A good matchmaking system nowadays requires less than 5 games to determine your skill level with an accuracy of over 98%. Accuracy increasing with every game played and only decreasing a little during extended pauses. 

36 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

you are. there is little challenge is travelling around all the maps farming plants or w/e collection you wanted to invent. If you think the "return to" achievements were the epitome of challenge, then that's where were disagree.

I mean. Fair point. I did call it effort, not challenge but this point is fair.

However, both PvP and WvW provide you with progress towards legendary armor with even less challenge than the Regalia achievements. 

Either I misunderstand your point or there is some kind of disconnect in that line of argument. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Erise.5614
Spelling

[mindcircus.1506]

2 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Accessories, Amulets and Back Items are the easiest to get ascended and you don't benefit from the free reslotting either. 

An ascended Back item and amulet can be earned in Bloodstone Fen and stat swapped at any time for 100 Unbound Magic (thats 100 Unbound for all three at once).
An Ascended Accessory can be earned in Twenty minutes of Eternal Ice farming  in Bjora Marches, making them essentially disposable.

[Rinagal.9235]

13 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Personal attack aside:
Since the launch of EoD I put together what I felt were servicable builds for 8 of the new Elite specs. I have no legendary armour for 6 of those. I have one Legendary Trinket.
I did not let that stop me.
2 out of the 6 were Celestial.

My point is simple, you have stated that getting legendary gear doesn't result in player starting to experiment with buildcrafting, i've stated that just my personal example proves you wrong. Obviously not every player once got full legendary gear all of a sudden starts experimenting with build crafting, but you cannot claim there is no audience for it or how big/small that audience is, just as well as you cannot claim that anyone who likes to experiment with build crafting would do it with or without legendary gear, because you'll be immediately proven wrong by my personal example.

 

The irony is, i have crafted 2 of my legendary armor sets from raids and one from WvW, but the only mode were i used legendary armor by it's full capacity so far is open world.

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

An ascended Back item and amulet can be earned in Bloodstone Fen and stat swapped at any time for 100 Unbound Magic (thats 100 Unbound for all three at once).
An Ascended Accessory can be earned in Twenty minutes of Eternal Ice farming  in Bjora Marches, making them essentially disposable.

Exactly my point. The PvE legendaries have less utility because of how easy it is to farm ascended versions of them.

And since you don't slot sigils or runes either you don't benefit much from free slot removal. You are saving a bit of infusions is all if you wanna juggle them between characters. Which is possible for 20 silver already.

Whereas Armor rune removal is ~20 gold and it impacts stats more and ascended versions are harder to acquire. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, disco.9302 said:

why do you think this is incorrect in pve?

Because it's not arbitrary classification that decides what is endgame and what is not. People's decisions and activity do. "Endgame" is nothing more than a buzzword describing the types of content (and goals) that keep players in MMORPG games for the longterm. For those that seek challenges it will be HC instanced content (with Raids being the iconic "pinnacle" of that path), but for someone not interested on those types of challenges it will not be an endgame, because it is not a direction they would be moving towards. The obvious case would be PvP players, for whom only PvP activities could ever be considered endgame - for them raids will never be that. But you have to understand that not everyone's goals and desires will revolve around more hardcore types of challenges (be it cooperative or competitive ones). To keep those other players in game longterm you would need a completely different kind of endgame, tailored to them - and not to you.

Long ago it might not have mattered - games were more focused towards hardcore players, and cared only about those groups, which made non-hc types of endgame less visible, lacking or completely non-existent. Nowadays, however, those non-hc players massively outnumber hc ones. As such, games need endgame content that does not match your preconceptions and outdated (by more than 20 years) expectations.

2 hours ago, disco.9302 said:

I think this in entirely the point that you're missing. Stomping ambient mobs for 5 years is not deserving of the same reward as trying and succeeding in beating the most challenging content - it's not like its even locked behind CMs!

No, this is your misunderstanding. You think that the point of the game content is to reward some types of behaviour that you think are more "worthy" than others. It is not. The point of this game is to keep players happy and playing longterm. Raids and similar content can do so only for a tiny minority of players however. Trying to make them the endgame for everyone else just turns them into nothing more than a dead end.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

And I also noted that more people have done the collections for Aurora than Legendary armor, what's your point?

If you've read what i wrote (and the post i have linked to), you'd have known.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Cool, except this has nothing to do with what I said. I said nothing about stuff like GoB. I talked about the price of a Legendary item and the possible requirements to make one. You either make it kittening expensive or require items/collections for it that need effort.

How many threads do you remember seeing lately about price of gifts for legendary weapons? Not many, i guess? And even if one would appear, it would be something minor, nothing comparable to the legendary armor threads we keep having over and over again. So, obviously, price and effort are not an issue, and never were. What is an issue is only the specific content where that effort might be applied.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Don't slice my points up to respond in separate pieces to them. This was part of the gated currencies segment and I said nothing about people complaining about gifts.

That was in response to what you said, and it was, i quote "On top of that you need Gifts, this material, that material, so on.".

So, yeah, they would need "gifts, this material, that material, so on". I don't see any point in bringing that up as if it was to be problematic - it never was before, so no reason why it should start to be in the future.

 

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Legendary armor was first available in PvE(Raids) and WvW with LWS3Ep5, it is not an afterthought, it was added WITH Raids, that's why you need W1-4 for it. PvP Legendary armor came about a year later.

And? Sure, legendary armor was first introduced with raids. And then added to WvW and SPvP. And it might be introduced with any other type of content tomorrow if Anet were to choose so. None of this has anything to do with whether introducing legendary armor in any type of content is pointless or not however.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If you find a solution that would not make any other Legendary armor worthless, but still make OW Legendary armor successful beyond these "unpopular" levels then feel free to share them.

And we're getting back to the point you didn't understand i mentioned at the top of this very post. The answer is very simple: do it the same way Aurora was done.

Was that simple enough?

[disco.9302]

17 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No, this is your misunderstanding. You think that the point of the game content is to reward some types of behaviour that you think are more "worthy" than others. It is not. The point of this game is to keep players happy and playing longterm. Raids and similar content can do so only for a tiny minority of players however. Trying to make them the endgame for everyone else just turns them into nothing more than a dead end.

so you've completely misunderstood the premise here, but don't worry I can help. All players are rewarded for the content they succeed at completing. If that content is simple, the rewards are simple. If the content is more challenging, the rewards reflect this. 

The game devs have shown by putting higher value gear in raids, that this is their vision of harder content = better rewards system. I am someone who agrees with that idea. You are inventing some bizarre narrative where non-raiders are punished for being openworld only players. They're not and if somebody thinks this they are clearly deluded beyond help or reasonable discussion.

In addition, there is a completely false idea that raids are somehow impossibly hard. They're not. Granted they take more effort than chopping down some trees in Queensdale, but they are far  from hardcore.

[Peterson.5172]

3 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

You are inventing some bizarre narrative where non-raiders are punished for being openworld only players. They're not and if somebody thinks this they are clearly deluded beyond help or reasonable discussion.

"punished" is probably too strong a word, but depends how you look at it

i think only 5% of the playerbase plays raids? assuming they account for 5% of the game's playtime/income, you get 95% of the playerbase bankrolling content they never get to enjoy, rewards they never get. is that "punishment"?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

How many threads do you remember seeing lately about price of gifts for legendary weapons? Not many, i guess? And even if one would appear, it would be something minor, nothing comparable to the legendary armor threads we keep having over and over again. So, obviously, price and effort are not an issue, and never were. What is an issue is only the specific content where that effort might be applied.

Quoted the wrong person? I never said a word about Gifts for Legendary weapons.

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That was in response to what you said, and it was, i quote "On top of that you need Gifts, this material, that material, so on.".

So, yeah, they would need "gifts, this material, that material, so on". I don't see any point in bringing that up as if it was to be problematic - it never was before, so no reason why it should start to be in the future.

Yes, I know what I wrote, no need to quote me, I listed the stuff you need and added you also need gifts and a bunch of materials, that's why I said don't slice that up, because it's a single topic, not two separate topics. However, let me rephrase it for you;

There are people asking for new ways to get PvE Legendary armor not accounting for the fact that just because Legendary armor is cheaper per piece than weapons it's more expensive than a weapon in the end. From this we can go to the following:
We've seen people complaining about certain materials for Legendaries, like A.S.S or certain content for a certain 2-player mount.
And thus making something requiring a lot of gold to make could warrant people complaining about the price. Alternatively making something require certain events and such could warrant people complaining it's too difficult.

12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And? Sure, legendary armor was first introduced with raids. And then added to WvW and SPvP. And it might be introduced with any other type of content tomorrow if Anet were to choose so. None of this has anything to do with whether introducing legendary armor in any type of content is pointless or not however.

I have said it a few times already, with the current amount of people invested into Legendary armor and Trinkets there isn't much reason in developing 3 new sets. If we go with 10% of players finishing the collections for PvE Legendary armor(thus less than 10% actually finishing it) does OW Legendary armor sound like a good investment from Anet's viewpoint?
From your viewpoint it may sound like a good investment, but then again more Raids sound good from the viewpoint of Raiders, not so good from any other viewpoint really.

15 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And we're getting back to the point you didn't understand i mentioned at the top of this very post. The answer is very simple: do it the same way Aurora was done.

Was that simple enough?

Considering the Aurora II is done by 18% more people than Envoy II and Vision II is done by ~10% less people than Envoy II making it the same way as Aurora was done wouldn't really lead to as much success as you wish.