Need more clarity around 60% success rate in DE meta

[Astralporing.1957]

16 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

That argument... again... DE is nowhere near raid content. You'd fail every single raid with just 7k DPS.

Fun fact: 7k dps is also the required minimum value to succeed at Vale Guardian.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[yann.1946]

17 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

It's case group a case study means that everything is the exact same from each instance, composition, performance, etc.

But in that case the group will not fail 4 and succeed 6 times. If they all had the sam comp/performance etc their succes and fail rates would be way closer to either 90 or 10 percent.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

But in that case the group will not fail 4 and succeed 6 times. If they all had the sam comp/performance etc their succes and fail rates would be way closer to either 90 or 10 percent.

Well, that would depend on how close that case group would be to the breaking point, but yeah, that's the primary issue with Anet's statistics. There's probably next to no groups that are at that "60% succes rate" level.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Raizel.8175]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Fun fact: 7k dps is also the required dps to succeed at Vale Guardian.

You certainly have a reliable source for that claim? And even then, you don't have additional +30% DPS there like you do in DE, no additional damage buffs either like those from greens. You also can just go DPS on DE whereas you need specific support builds at VG. 7k at DE isn't 7k at VG. Your argument is pretty much nonsensical.

[Luci.7018]

I believe it time to limit the dps with "if statements" in the OW , that work like filters and focus on the mechanics and fun  instead .

The zerg is split up into  10 RANDOM-INVISIBLE  teams - each with 5 random players .  The INVISIBLE teams and the actual group composition is entirely different  things  ....

Each team will contribute in their  "damage pool container" that will explode in alphabetical turn ,  for 1% hp of the boss .

There's a 2 sec delay before the next container explodes

Each subgroup-damage , if exceed the limit , nothing happens . If they won't , container will still do 0.8% hp .

The first 5% hp of the boss is "free" given by the system , in order the containers to "fill".

 

If you get with your actual  friends in the same party and you try to "merge" with the Commander , you will be placed in the   8th Raid group .

  And if consistently fill the container (S+ rank in LoL...those cheakys bast..), you gain +1 reroll you Chest(see them in a preview , like the core lvlup chests) , or more chance to gain something in OTHER metas ...not this one ..

Edited April 18, 2022 by Luci.7018

[yann.1946]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, that would depend on how close that case group would be to the breaking point, but yeah, that's the primary issue with Anet's statistics. There's probably next to no groups that are at that "60% succes rate" level.

It has very little to do with how close that case group is to the breaking point. The thing is the 60 percent is an average accounting for a lot of random noise (commander, comp, execution, experience, buffs etc). If you just take a case group where you kill parts of that randomness there is no reason to except that group to behave as the average with that randomness. 

 

On top of that you have the point you made that there likely very few people actually hitting that 60 percent mark. 

[yann.1946]

30 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

You're wrong. If a player who has played the game for years still hasn't bothered to interact with the rather basic build system GW2 offers - even if that interaction is merely reading traits - then that's on the player because that player was lazy and didn't want his gaming experience to be smoother by choosing different traits. The game also doesn't have to play the kindergarten teacher all the time. The game is already teaching about combo fields, defiance bars, movement, etc. The people playing this game are all adult people. Expecting some kind of independent gameplay is perfectly fine.

The build system is absolutely not basic, pretending it is does a big disservice to the general discussion. 

[Raizel.8175]

4 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

The build system is absolutely not basic, pretending it is does a big disservice to the general discussion. 

Well... In comparison, it is. I mean, I really don't want to demean GW2s build system - I like it the way it is as it's quite suitable for a MMORPG. GW1s build system probably wouldn't work large scale in that regard. But you can't deny that it's comparatively easy.

[Malus.2184]

26 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

But in that case the group will not fail 4 and succeed 6 times. If they all had the sam comp/performance etc their succes and fail rates would be way closer to either 90 or 10 percent.

Exactly, that's the entire point. The ideal situation produces a different number than the statistics given and given that ANet says "the success rate" instead of "the overall success rate" implies that there are external factors in play here since with a constant internal factor the case group should have a close to a 100% success rate as they'd always fall into the "success" category of the success/fail binary.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Well... In comparison, it is. I mean, I really don't want to demean GW2s build system - I like it the way it is as it's quite suitable for a MMORPG. GW1s build system probably wouldn't work large scale in that regard. But you can't deny that it's comparatively easy.

You're talking about one of the most (if not the most) complex (and, what's much greater problem - unintuitively complex) systems in top MMORPG games. No, it's neither easy, nor comparatively easy. It's a mess even most of hardcore players are unable to fully comprehend.

[Raizel.8175]

29 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You're talking about one of the most (if not the most) complex (and, what's much greater problem - unintuitively complex) systems in top MMORPG games. No, it's neither easy, nor comparatively easy. It's a mess even most of hardcore players are unable to fully comprehend.

Even if GW2s build system would be the most complex - which - I am certain of - it isn't -, you'd still not need a deep understanding since basic understanding already enables you to clear most content - even up to fractals and raids - efficiently. Maybe this is some kind of cultural/generational problem though? I've been playing games for ~25 years by now starting with stuff like Sonic on SNES, Super Mario 64 and Zelda OoT/MM on N64 and stuff like Resident Evil on PS1. Games never really held your hand and explained everything. I'm kinda flabbergasted that people now expect that games should exactly do that. People were considerably annoyed with Fi in Zelda Skyward Sword since she basically always and constantly explained everything.

[Luci.7018]

Just now, Raizel.8175 said:

Even if GW2s build system would be the most complex - which - I am certain of - it isn't -, you'd still not need a deep understanding since basic understanding already enables you to clear most content - even up to fractals and raids - efficiently. Maybe this is some kind of cultural/generational problem though? I've been playing games for ~25 years by now starting with stuff like Sonic on SNES, Super Mario 64 and Zelda OoT/MM on N64 and stuff like Resident Evil on PS1. Games never really held your hand and explained everything. I'm kinda flabbergasted that people now expect that games should exactly do that. People were considerably annoyed with Fi in Zelda Skyward Sword since she basically always and constantly explained everything.

"hey listen"

 

They should  make complex fights .

Not train them to do  Mortal Combat combos , while doing the open world complex  fights : )

Edited April 18, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Raizel.8175]

1 minute ago, Luci.7018 said:

"hey listen"

 

They should  make complex fights .

Not train them to do  Mortal Combat combos , while doing the open world complex  fights : )

Hello Navi. 😄 I've played Mortal Kombat. GW2 isn't Mortal Kombat though. There are several Low Intensity Builds which do decent damage. There are also several Button Mashing Builds that are viable in raids. Skill rotations aren't an issue in GW2.

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

Anyway, it is clear we can conclude that:

 

1. People cannot follow a commander's calls. 

2. Are unable to CC despite the big blue bar being an obvious hint and despite most squads providing you with an EMP .

3. Are unable to hit 7k DPS in an era where single button builds parse 20k and the ceiling is 40k+ and the meta itself giving you a +30% damage boost for FREE.

 

4.Players consider the basics mentioned above as raid-tier complexity despite these things being in the game for 10 years. 

5. People demand content that cannot be failed because if they fail they stop playing that content.

6. People absolutely refuse to improve themselves and prefer to complain and demanding nerfs to the content instead.

7. Any attempt to educate or help people to meet the basic requirements mentioned in point 1-3, no matter how polite or soft spoken, will be considered toxic and elitist.

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry at this point.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Wielder Of Magic.3950

[Luci.7018]

Just now, Raizel.8175 said:

Hello Navi. 😄 I've played Mortal Kombat. GW2 isn't Mortal Kombat though. There are several Low Intensity Builds which do decent damage. There are also several Button Mashing Builds that are viable in raids. Skill rotations aren't an issue in GW2.

If streamers and youtubers made their video with the assumption that people wear Knights or Rapid and general runes like Balthazar  , and focused more on spells and traits  , people would be more willingly to follow them

(ofc people are willing to spent 100 gold to buy new things some1 random  proposed them on the internet.. because they will "get better" to meet other people expactations.. )

Edited April 18, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Astralporing.1957]

17 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Even if GW2s build system would be the most complex - which - I am certain of - it isn't -, you'd still not need a deep understanding since basic understanding already enables you to clear most content - even up to fractals and raids - efficiently.

No. You're confusing "basic understanding" with approach to search for builds through third-party sources. Those are very different things. In this game you don't really need any deep understanding of the system - like i mentioned already, even most hardcore players don't really understand it. What you need is access to the guides made by people that do understand it.

And the issue is, most people nowadays do not play that way. The old school of looking for guides is followed only by a minority of players. Most of others just don't even think of such a possibility.

10 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Hello Navi. 😄 I've played Mortal Kombat. GW2 isn't Mortal Kombat though. There are several Low Intensity Builds which do decent damage. There are also several Button Mashing Builds that are viable in raids. Skill rotations aren't an issue in GW2.

Precisely, It's not the skill that is the issue. The access to knowledge is.

Quote

Maybe this is some kind of cultural/generational problem though? I've been playing games for ~25 years by now starting with stuff like Sonic on SNES, Super Mario 64 and Zelda OoT/MM on N64 and stuff like Resident Evil on PS1. Games never really held your hand and explained everything. I'm kinda flabbergasted that people now expect that games should exactly do that. People were considerably annoyed with Fi in Zelda Skyward Sword since she basically always and constantly explained everything.

Not generational. Just a different target group, which is a consequence of aiming at much bigger gaming populations. I mean, people you speak of would barely be enough to cover a single mid-size MMORPG. They'd never be enough to sustain multiple AAA ones.

When the games started to reach out to a wider crowd, it resulted in changes in average player behaviours and expectations. It's just that many players (and developers) are still years behind the curve in acknowledging that shift, which keeps causing issues.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Raizel.8175]

3 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry at this point.

Laughing is more pleasant. Having some black humor is always helpful in life. x)

2 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

If streamers and youtubers made their video with the assumption that people wear Knights or Rapid and general runes like Balthazar (ofc their are willing to spent 100 gold to buy new things some1 proposed them on the internet..)  , and focused more on spells and traits  , people would be more willingly to follow them

There are several youtubers/streamer who make videos about low intensity builds or simple rotations. Just look up people like Mukluk (posted the infamous One-Button-20k-DPS-mechanist-build), Masel or MrMystic on yt. Besides: Balthazar runes are BiS on cDPS Guardian.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

If streamers and youtubers made their video with the assumption that people wear Knights or Rapid and general runes like Balthazar (ofc their are willing to spent 100 gold to buy new things some1 proposed them on the internet..)  , and focused more on spells and traits  , people would be more willingly to follow them

Nah. You can't follow advice you have never seen. When some players are ranting at people for not following their suggestions, they aim their rants to noone, because the people they are ranting at do not even know they are being talked to (much less listen to what's being said).

That's the primary problem we're dealing with. The game needs to start acknowledging that a large majority of players gets all their knowledge about builds/skill etc only from inside the game. And not even from other players in there.

As long as the game design will expect those players to adjust with help of third-party resources, it will remain flawed in its basic assumptions.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Raizel.8175 said:

The problem with getting people into raids isn't the difficulty of raids - W1-W4 are fairly accessible when it comes to difficulty -, it's socialization. That results into a whole different problem though: For people to socialize, you need to have basic rules. These rules in raids are knowing roles, boons and certain key mechanics - that won't change even if you add "easy mode" raids.

I find this to be a really interesting statement. This doesn't sound like socializing is the problem. This sounds like knowing the encounter and the unspoken rules of behavior and language are the problem. 

Which I can totally understand. But wouldn't that mean it's not so much about "snowflakes" and more about the lack of proper entry points?

By the time people grind T4 CMs they know about that. What happened there? Why do fractals have a larger adoption rate than raids while suffering less from this problem? 

 

56 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

You can learn basic gameplay knowledge during your road to level 80 if you just bother to read your skills and traits. That's basic interaction with the game you're playing and something the developer of a game should be able to expect from the people playing the game.

How can the following 4 things be true simultaneously?

1. Each player learns all basic skills and traits during the road to level 80. The game does a good job at teaching new players.
2. It's less of a problem in different games.

3. Gatekeeping is necessary for a good experience because players don't know how to play the game, don't want to learn.

4. Adding harder content is the solution to make the game more healthy

To me, that sounds like either the community mostly enjoys the game differently than you do. And the game would have to change significantly, catering to a different audience trying to pull players from competitors while probably pushing long term players away.

Or as if some of those things aren't entirely true.

For example, I fully believe one can know everything by level 80. But I don't believe the vast, vast majority of people do. And I suspect that to be the case because it's a very 2000s design philosophy to tell people to just read tooltips until they understand everything. Which just doesn't hold up in the 2020s anymore. 

 

56 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

PoF metas are dead because people were too used to HoT metas and are - in general - inert when it comes to new challenges. There aren't really any differences between HoT and PoF - even the rewards are basically the same - besides that PoF metas generally expect people to be attentive for a longer period of time. Octovine and Chak (those are the HoT metas you mean) are a matter of 2~3 minutes, PoF metas take a little more time. Does that speak against the meta or rather against the player?

HoT have account bound legendaries that are directly tied to metas. Both weapons and armor. Plus the rune of leadership. 

PoF has less rewards directly tied to the events, the events are less engaging (it's mostly walk, hit stuff, walk, hit stuff). 

And your time comparison is exaggerated in both ways. Durations are comparable.

But the entire Agury Rock, one of the neglected metas, takes about 15 minutes including the entire pre event escort. If you do the pylons in AB it's ~35 minutes. If you don't it's about 10 minutes for octo. ~1-5 minutes to loot. Depending on which chests you open.

57 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

We have a daily reward system. People will still play easier metas even if more difficult metas are more rewarding. Not that that's actually the case though: Stuff like Drizzlewood is more rewarding than DE - it's even more rewarding than raids or fractals.

It appears to me that the primary factor is that a meta needs to be similarly engaging and similarly rewarding for people to run it.

Drizzlewood may not difficult in terms of combat but it does have a lot of running around and different tasks to do. Other things can be engaging than pure challenge.

Quote

Which raid situation are you talking about by the way?
There simply wouldn't be gatekeeping in the first place if the average player had a minimum skill level to begin with. The craze about LI/KP gatekeeping is something very distinct to GW2 and quite a rarity in the general MMORPG landscape. The reason for that being the lack of a minimum skill level and the lack of overall socialization in GW2.

But why is that? Is it the community being too stupid? Too lazy? 

Why isn't it a problem in other games? And does that mean GW2 needs to change in the direction of others or does it mean that it serves a different audience?

All of your points sound like you want to blame other players. But how is it the fault of those players? How can it possibly be their fault? So long as they support the game and have a good time, it ought to be healthy for the game, no? 

Most of them aren't even complaining about raid difficulty. As far as I can tell, most are fine just never playing raids. And it's raiders complaining about lack of popularity and support by ANet?

Quote

I'm certain that difficulty variety/progression wouldn't harm the game in the grand scheme of things.

See, this I absolutely agree with. You can't completely neglect anyone on the spectrum. If there isn't content that's appealing to them, they will just leave.

So variety in difficulty is important. And a nice difficulty progression wouldn't hurt either. I do believe the game is lacking in that regard. Strikes might solve that issue in some regards but the EoD ones are still too new to tell. 

But especially since a game like GW2 is built for long term enjoyment. There is a need for variety that doesn't escalate in difficulty. By building an infinite progression curve just constantly dialing up difficulty you just assure that anyone who struggles with progression for any reason will just drop the game entirely.

Challenge at all kinds of levels. Including low intensity, are important to give people options and down times to fall back onto when they are not looking for high intensity experiences that evening. Otherwise they just won't play but rather watch netflix or something else. Gradually disengaging from the game. 

57 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

You invalidate content with constantly adding new farming maps though? Prime example would be Silverwastes which isn't all that great anymore since other farming maps are even more overrewarding.

RIBA is disturbingly popular. I am genuinely shocked how constantly it is still run to this day. 

But that's besides the point. Because yes. You are correct. You can't scale up infinitely either. It does work surprisingly well. Most maps have their meta run, at least during peak hours. Guild Wars 2 is pretty good at packing maps like that. 

However, there will be a time where more and more will struggle if ANet keeps expanding as they are right now.

Is that really a problem though? There are lots of solutions to that. Cycling certain metas into and out of rotation by modifying the reward structure, things like the season of dragons which revived all the maps for months. Tweaking rewards up and down to not give out increasingly valuable rewards while still affecting the rotation. Using core tyria style reward tracks more elaborately for an account bound mat that's important for something. Lots of options! 

[Luci.7018]

Just now, Raizel.8175 said:

Laughing is more pleasant. Having some black humor is always helpful in life. x)

There are several youtubers/streamer who make videos about low intensity builds or simple rotations. Just look up people like Mukluk (posted the infamous One-Button-20k-DPS-mechanist-build), Masel or MrMystic on yt. Besides: Balthazar runes are BiS on cDPS Guardian.

Yeah they make them , but the part where you  need to Respect your Knights to Berseker , to meet other expectation is a little .... hmm...

 

There can go with the Exotic route , but behind their head is "dead dps > no dps"

Edited April 18, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Raizel.8175]

7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And not even from other players in there.

People aren't islands. If they don't want to socialize in a genre in which the social and multiplayer aspect is constituent, it's arguably on them.

[Astralporing.1957]

7 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

People aren't islands. If they don't want to socialize in a genre in which the social and multiplayer aspect is constituent, it's arguably on them.

If it's an issue for individual players, it's on them. If it's an issue with majority of players, it's on developers.

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

Exactly, that's the entire point. The ideal situation produces a different number than the statistics given and given that ANet says "the success rate" instead of "the overall success rate" implies that there are external factors in play here since with a constant internal factor the case group should have a close to a 100% success rate as they'd always fall into the "success" category of the success/fail binary.

No, not at all. Now in this case their is an obvious external factor in the rng of bites and mobs pawns. But that does not mean that that 40% comes from external factors. From the experiences of people in this fora the 40% mostly comes from the internal factors because they either get extremely high or low winrates

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Well... In comparison, it is. I mean, I really don't want to demean GW2s build system - I like it the way it is as it's quite suitable for a MMORPG. GW1s build system probably wouldn't work large scale in that regard. But you can't deny that it's comparatively easy.

Do you think it is easy to see what is usefull and not? If I asked you what is the difference between parasitic contagion and the gain condi damage and change your scepter 3 grandmaster on necro, would you be able to judge what is better in what situation? 

[Gibson.4036]

10 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

No, not at all. Now in this case their is an obvious external factor in the rng of bites and mobs pawns. But that does not mean that that 40% comes from external factors. From the experiences of people in this fora the 40% mostly comes from the internal factors because they either get extremely high or low winrates

I'm at 60% success, with five attempts.

Attempst 1, 2 and 4 were successes, and all have in common that I showed up 60 to 70 minutes before escorts start, and found a group to join in LFG.

Attempts 3 and 5, failures, have in common that I looked for a group 30 to 15 minutes before escorts.