Group Quickness for Warrior confirmed. [Merged]

[DanAlcedo.3281]

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Mmm moar quickness....

Mmm more might share for MM+PS...

[Hotride.2187]

Would've preferred if war got stab honestly... but I guess quickness works too.

Kinda makes me wonder what the point is of quickness and alac, considering that you are expected to have them at all times in pve and half the professions can now give one or the other... But what do I care about pve.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Bye bye stats! Enter redundant AoE quickness! Enjoy your days as Quickslaves! WvW? Ah hell nah, even nerfed scrapper with mobile wells of quickness still doesn't compare. 

 

Love to see it! 

[Infusion.7149]

"Banners will allow Warriors to opt into a quickness support role, while Spirits will allow Rangers to opt into Alacrity coverage."

There's low probability it will retain the +100 power/condition and +100 precision/ferocity. If my hunch is correct then consistent fury application on warriors should be a priority for Arenanet. They ought to up the PVE fury duration on "For Great Justice" in that case.

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

"Banners will allow Warriors to opt into a quickness support role, while Spirits will allow Rangers to opt into Alacrity coverage."

There's low probability it will retain the +100 power/condition and +100 precision/ferocity.

Exactly, so why take a warrior now in pve, let alone what will change in wvw..

Oh I know, PPT squads can now use Bannerslaves to have quickness and be swift with killing that Keep Champion!11!

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Exactly, so why take a warrior now in pve, let alone what will change in wvw..

Oh I know, PPT squads can now use Bannerslaves to have quickness and be swift with killing that Keep Champion!11!

You don't need to do that, heal scrapper and heal firebrand have quickness. Luckily (PVE) warrior does decent DPS and CC, so not completely gutted as herald.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

You don't need to do that, heal scrapper and heal firebrand have quickness. Luckily (PVE) warrior does decent DPS and CC, so not completely gutted as herald.

I stand corrected in the gamemode I main1!! Tbf many Firebrands don't run quickness since scrapper buff, but now they may start again. 

 

But anyway, will be funny to see them just make banners a "place banner for 1 min, pulses 1 sec of quickness every 10 sec" when traited and probably some inconsequential boons with it.

[Obtena.7952]

53 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

"Banners will allow Warriors to opt into a quickness support role, while Spirits will allow Rangers to opt into Alacrity coverage."

There's low probability it will retain the +100 power/condition and +100 precision/ferocity. If my hunch is correct then consistent fury application on warriors should be a priority for Arenanet. They ought to up the PVE fury duration on "For Great Justice" in that case.

 

I wouldn't be so certain the stats are removed entirely ... there needs to be SOMETHING that makes the banners unique. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

19 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I wouldn't be so sure those stats are removed entirely ... there needs to be SOMETHING that makes the banners unique. 

If you paid attention to balance discussions in the past, it is highly likely spotter/banner apply the same buff for uniformity so that players don't have so many stacking buffs which increase disparity between experienced players and people playing "whatever". That would reverse the overall powercreep since HoT and simplify group comping. Banners in their current state plus quickness would push out spotter since banner is stronger in its current state ; spotter isn't provided by spirits and isn't a role. Would people take a 33K quickness banner warrior or 37K Banner bladesworn? Probably more likely than taking a harbinger especially on KC/CA/VG provided your fury output is high (it currently isn't on warriors). Since you support openworld legendary armor (lol) that is probably lost on you.

Not sure why you quote me since half of the forum probably has you ignored for derailing threads like this one. Also you stated in the past many times you don't care about the meta, so why is that bit even relevant to you? Spotter is mostly relevant to chrono / virtuoso, power BS, weaver (worse than catalyst), power tempest (niche and hitbox reliant), Virtues DH (niche). From your posts pro-necro and pro-warrior it seems those are what you play almost exclusively.

----

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I stand corrected in the gamemode I main1!! Tbf many Firebrands don't run quickness since scrapper buff, but now they may start again. 

 

But anyway, will be funny to see them just make banners a "place banner for 1 min, pulses 1 sec of quickness every 10 sec" when traited and probably some inconsequential boons with it.

If I had to make a guess Arenanet is restoring the boons normally applied by the banners before they took out the actual banner bundles.
My guess:

• Banner of Strength = might
• Banner of Discipline = fury (see Furious Rally)
• Banner of Tactics = heal or regen? (see Compassionate Banner)
• Banner of Defense = protection or knockback CC (see Staggering Banner)
• Battle Standard = stability (see Whirlwind Banner)

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

26 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you paid attention to balance discussions in the past, it is highly likely spotter/banner apply the same buff for uniformity so that players don't have so many stacking buffs which increase disparity between experienced players and people playing "whatever". That would reverse the overall powercreep since HoT and simplify group comping. Banners in their current state plus quickness would push out spotter since banner is stronger in its current state ; spotter isn't provided by spirits and isn't a role. Would people take a 33K quickness banner warrior or 37K Banner bladesworn? Probably more likely than taking a harbinger especially on KC/CA/VG provided your fury output is high (it currently isn't on warriors). Since you support openworld legendary armor (lol) that is probably lost on you.

Not sure why you quote me since half of the forum probably has you ignored for derailing threads like this one. Also you stated in the past many times you don't care about the meta, so why is that bit even relevant to you? Spotter is mostly relevant to chrono / virtuoso, power BS, weaver (worse than catalyst), power tempest (niche and hitbox reliant), Virtues DH (niche). From your posts pro-necro and pro-warrior it seems those are what you play almost exclusively.

----

If I had to make a guess Arenanet is restoring the boons normally applied by the banners before they took out the actual banner bundles.
My guess:

• Banner of Strength = might
• Banner of Discipline = fury (see Furious Rally)
• Banner of Tactics = heal or regen? (see Compassionate Banner)
• Banner of Defense = protection or knockback CC (see Staggering Banner)
• Battle Standard = stability (see Whirlwind Banner)

 

If the banners stay with the warrior and those can be frequently pulsed in addition to some other effect, then I can see one or two being picked up in DPS builds. Depends on how they do it and what the trait will be reworked to do. Might be like FB where quickness gives bonus stats.

 

[Mell.4873]

Wouldn't it make more sense to give Warrior alacrity so it can speed up its rotation? I mean berserker and spellbreaker already had access to quickness to some extent? 

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Mell.4873 said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to give Warrior alacrity so it can speed up its rotation? I mean berserker and spellbreaker already had access to quickness to some extent? 

No. For power DPS warrior quickness helps both with Dragon Trigger cast as well as spamming Decapitate which effectively has no cooldown in PVE.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

No. For power DPS warrior quickness helps both with Dragon Trigger cast as well as spamming Decapitate which effectively has no cooldown in PVE.

But wouldn't warrior in general would benifit more from lower cooldowns to get off more burst skills?

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Mell.4873 said:

But wouldn't warrior in general would benifit more from lower cooldowns to get off more burst skills?

That is possible but you have to weigh quickness versus alacrity, for the average player quickness is a huge improvement compared to alacrity. This is based off my experience playing quickness firebrand/quickness scrapper and alacrity renegade back to back in multiple groups (so the players are the same) as well as StM chrono in its heyday (alacrity uptime was rather shoddy before). If you lack alacrity it is far less of a hit than lacking quickness. Quickness is just that strong. All warriors should be thankful that they are getting quickness, hopefully fury output is also considered because might on warriors isn't a problem really.

[Mell.4873]

5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That is possible but you have to weigh quickness versus alacrity, for the average player quickness is a huge improvement compared to alacrity. This is based off my experience playing quickness firebrand/quickness scrapper and alacrity renegade back to back in multiple groups (so the players are the same) as well as StM chrono in its heyday (alacrity uptime was rather shoddy before). If you lack alacrity it is far less of a hit than lacking quickness. Quickness is just that strong. All warriors should be thankful that they are getting quickness, hopefully fury output is also considered because might on warriors isn't a problem really.

Yeah I agree, we shall see how it plays out and if you can maintain it without much boon duration. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

 

If I had to make a guess Arenanet is restoring the boons normally applied by the banners before they took out the actual banner bundles.
My guess:

• Banner of Strength = might
• Banner of Discipline = fury (see Furious Rally)
• Banner of Tactics = heal or regen? (see Compassionate Banner)
• Banner of Defense = protection or knockback CC (see Staggering Banner)
• Battle Standard = stability (see Whirlwind Banner)

 

Probably...if it's not as Lan commented on some form of mobility while using them, then the banners will always be bad....

What even is a warrior gonna play as with a Regen tick on a Tactics Banner? Support? Is that enough to make it a support? Even the bloated shout support is actually not a support. 

With no major revamping of the banners themselves to be treated as a viable but not mandatory option, a lot of reworking and trait flipping for support options in Discipline and Tactics, Warrior will never, ever, ever, be called a support, no matter how much Anet wants to push this false title around.. Sure a quickness pumping warrior will be interesting to see, but to me it will be the doom of warrior, as the boon has become overabundant and if warrior has no other way of justifying the banners outside of measly boons like might which a Druid will always apply better in pve and a herald more reliably in wvw, then warrior is already dead.

 

Thank you Anet, you are successfully killing this class. Glad I jumped ship to rev.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Probably...if it's not as Lan commented on some form of mobility while using them, then the banners will always be bad....

What even is a warrior gonna play as with a Regen tick on a Tactics Banner? Support? Is that enough to make it a support? Even the bloated shout support is actually not a support. 

With no major revamping of the banners themselves to be treated as a viable but not mandatory option, a lot of reworking and trait flipping for support options in Discipline and Tactics, Warrior will never, ever, ever, be called a support, no matter how much Anet wants to push this false title around.. Sure a quickness pumping warrior will be interesting to see, but to me it will be the doom of warrior, as the boon has become overabundant and if warrior has no other way of justifying the banners outside of measly boons like might which a Druid will always apply better in pve and a herald more reliably in wvw, then warrior is already dead.

 

Thank you Anet, you are successfully killing this class. Glad I jumped ship to rev.

If you pair a quickness warrior with a heal mechanist (which applies 25 might) you don't need heals which frees you from the tactics traitline. It's only if you pair with a power alac ren , meme alac willbender, or alac mirage. That's why my major concern is fury. Alac specter might be able to do it (specter gives fury+might+swiftness via Siphon) and the spirits on ranger supposedly will have alacrity; if alac is given to tempest as well that gives you three heal alacrity options.

You aren't going to run quickness power warrior on SH/TL for example (condition fights) due to extra effort over CQB/harbinger with no gain but for anything power or burst oriented such as VG /CA/KC and Gorseval/ Sloth too it probably will see play due to strong CC. The alternatives such as quickness scrapper (no fury without turret / low might output), StM chrono (which tanks in damage if you don't run SC level boon duration), or quickness catalyst (4 attunement gameplay) are harder to play than power warrior.

You can't view support simply as healing , boons are a form of support. That's why power boon chrono is a support, why power alac ren is a support, alac mirage is a support, etc. LFG is down to quick+alac+heal right now with more rigid groups asking for BS+druid; role compression in the form of heal +quick or heal+alac isn't always a necessity.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you paid attention to balance discussions in the past, it is highly likely spotter/banner apply the same buff for uniformity so that players don't have so many stacking buffs which increase disparity between experienced players and people playing "whatever". That would reverse the overall powercreep since HoT and simplify group comping. Banners in their current state plus quickness would push out spotter since banner is stronger in its current state ; spotter isn't provided by spirits and isn't a role. Would people take a 33K quickness banner warrior or 37K Banner bladesworn? Probably more likely than taking a harbinger especially on KC/CA/VG provided your fury output is high (it currently isn't on warriors). Since you support openworld legendary armor (lol) that is probably lost on you.

That might all be true ... but I'm not wrong when I say SOMETHING needs to differentiate the various banners. That doesn't exclude Anet maintaining banners as stat-based. 

It seems to me your whole philosophy of this whole 'roles' thing is based around the idea of each class filling a gap in a team with no overlap or conflicts with other class buffs. That doesn't seem very relevant to me. Teams that think that way are just going to take what they want, regardless of what's what and regardless of how well Anet applies roles to various classes. The roles thing is simply as Anet stated: More Flexible comps, better contribution on the class you want to play and easier to join a group. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That might all be true ... but I'm not wrong when I say SOMETHING needs to differentiate the various banners. Maybe they do remove the stat buffs ... but they will need to add SOMETHING back to make them different if that's the case. I wouldn't go so far as assuming their stats get removed. It seems like more work than is necessary to remove them just to add something back to make them different again. 

This whole 'roles' thing isn't being done around what a team would take ... Teams that think that way are just going to take what they want, regardless of what's what. The roles thing is simply as Anet stated: More Flexible comps, better contribution on the class you want to play and easier to join a group. I don't see how stats on banners conflicts with that, EVEN with Spotter. 

Which is why I stated above most likely the original boons output on banner bundles will be reinstated. Keep up.

It's a simple fact that power comps ask for quick+alac+BS+druid.

P.S. Unlike you I have been a part of maintaining the PVP/WVW splits on wiki for just about every patch since POF so I would say my predictions are likely to be far more accurate than yours.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

24 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Which is why I stated above most likely the original boons output on banner bundles will be reinstated.

It's a simple fact that power comps ask for quick+alac+BS+druid.

Sure, each of us can speculate whatever we think will happen to banners all we like. Personally, I don't see a conflict with how they work now and the role assignment being made. I'm of the belief that the rework to apply quickness will be in the banner trait, not the banners themselves, so the need to change banners from stats to something else seems unnecessary. 

Again, by Anet's own words here, the role implementation is for Flexible comps, easy to get teams and contributing to a team with a desired class. Whether that adheres to what a 'power comp' team asks for seems pretty irrelevant because I can assure you, it's NOT the 'power comp' teams goal to have flexible comps, easy to get into or caring about people playing their desired class.

In otherwords, I don't think a single specific team comp scenario have any impact on how the role will be implemented on a class. They simply can't accomodate all the possible conflicts, overlaps and interactions that might happen between two classes and their toolsets. That's to me, a possible reason they wouldn't make banners revert back to boons. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

36 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, each of us can speculate whatever we think will happen to banners all we like. Personally, I don't see a conflict with how they work now and the role assignment being made. I'm of the belief that the rework to apply quickness will be in the banner trait, not the banners themselves, so the need to change banners from stats to something else seems unnecessary. 

Again, by Anet's own words here, the role implementation is for Flexible comps, easy to get teams and contributing to a team with a desired class. Whether that adheres to what a 'power comp' team asks for seems pretty irrelevant because I can assure you, it's NOT the 'power comp' teams goal to have flexible comps, easy to get into or caring about people playing their desired class.

In otherwords, I don't think a single specific team comp scenario have any impact on how the role will be implemented on a class. They simply can't accomodate all the possible conflicts, overlaps and interactions that might happen between two classes and their toolsets. That's to me, a possible reason they wouldn't make banners revert back to boons. 

It's because you're too concerned with crushing metathink to not foresee that in any scenario where power is run most people that care about overall performance would rather take a 33K DPS BS with quickness and +400 group stats from banners rather than say a catalyst , scrapper/StM chrono or even harbinger quickness which have no such bonuses especially when heal mechanist covers fury and so does alac mirage and specter. Any prospective alacrity druid would also have fury coverage. Obviously in a condi scenario running condi BS is debatable since condi BS isn't as easy to play and the net effect of +100  ferocity is lower for a condi comp.

Arenanet is trying to make everything more or less interchangeable for the main roles (quick/alac/heal) similar to puzzle pieces. The moment you throw in +400 stats and rarer boons it becomes lopsided. That said, even if Banner of Strength retains a +100 condition damage mod shared with Pinpoint Distribution and Banner of Discipline retains either +100 precision ala Spotter or +150 ferocity (instead of +100 it now has) similar to Assassin's Presence it would remain a strong contender for the quickness role.

The meta has always come down to the easiest for the end result because there is a severe distrust of random players on builds that are hard to play. That is why catalyst doesn't have the adoption Arenanet are looking for even after the changes. It's still a HB + alac ren dominant meta especially in fractals with some people opting for QB+heal mech instead because barrier is a more seamless solution to agony.

Anyway if you're just going to argue about semantics I am just going to block you just like half the forum, I don't have the patience to deal with people that want to argue against the meta when not understanding why the meta exists in the first place (performance first and foremost).

Edited April 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

32 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's because you're too concerned with crushing metathink to not foresee that in any scenario where power is run most people that care about overall performance would rather take a 33K DPS BS with quickness and +400 group stats from banners rather than say a catalyst , scrapper/StM chrono or even harbinger quickness which have no such bonuses especially when heal mechanist covers fury and so does alac mirage and specter. Any prospective alacrity druid would also have fury coverage. Obviously in a condi scenario running condi BS is debatable since condi BS isn't as easy to play and the net effect of +100  ferocity is lower for a condi comp.

You're reading far too much into what I'm saying. Nothing I said has anything to do with meta and I'm more than aware that teams concerned about performance are STILL going to take whatever is meta at that time no matter what Anet does to create some level playing field of roles for classes. It's exactly that reason that I believe we can't assume Anet's balancing efforts with role implementation will be affected by how those teams behave in the first place (just like that kind of team behaviour hasn't affected Anet's balancing efforts for the last 9 years either).

I'm simply saying that stat buffs on banners don't conflict with Anet's roles implementation, so it's not the as definite a change as people think it might be.

Also, if there is a concern at Anet of overlap between boons over all the classes (like you pointed out with Spotter) ... then that's actually a good reason to NOT change banners to be boon based from stat based. 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You're reading far too much into what I'm saying. Nothing I said has anything to do with meta. I'm simply saying that stat buffs on banners don't conflict with their roles implementation. Also, if there is a concern at Anet of overlap between boons over all the classes (like you pointed out with Spotter) ... then that's actually a good reason to NOT change them to be boon based from stat based. 

 

Spotter doesn't overlap with banners. It's in addition to 10 man banners which is why every raid guide has gear for with and without spotter. When Arenanet moved alacrity to a boon they started this direction where everything is interchangeable, they even stated themselves they want your class choice to not matter whatsoever.
What do we have for quickness?

• Quick firebrand (condi/heal)
• Quick catalyst (power in most cases)
• Quick harbinger (condi in most cases)
• Quick scrapper (power/heal) --- no appreciable fury , some might
• Quick StM chrono  -- no might but possibility of some alac if you give up almost all DPS
• <--- Quick warrior of all variants

What do we have for alacrity?

• Alac ren (power/condi, lesser ran heal variant)
• Alac mech (heal, condi with 4 kits, power)
• Alac mirage (condi)
• Alac specter (condi)
• <--- Alac druid (heal)
• <--- alac tempest possibly (heal, condi mainly)

Go read
https://www.pcgamer.com/the-future-of-guild-wars-2-arenanet-announces-return-of-season-1-and-teases-next-expansion/

"Speaking to PvE as an example, our core roles for endgame (instanced) party content are DPS, Quickness, Alacrity, and Healing. In this context, GW2's flexible and robust buildcraft allow for a lot of possibilities to, in many combinations, tick two of these boxes at the same time (or pick DPS twice and do more damage!). Generally speaking, a build that is a DPS/support hybrid does about 3/4s the damage of a pure DPS build. Each profession has hybrid and pure DPS builds available among their specializations that are all within close theoretical maximums of comparable builds across other professions for damage output.
 

Arenanet doesn't see Banners as a role even if the playerbase does in every power comp. In fractals with the condi meta it hasn't been quite relevant since May 2021. Meta condi mechanist doesn't run pinpoint distribution so spotter is the main overlap ; what you're suggesting is that Arenanet simply disregard these overlap scenarios (when actually it is additional stats and not "conflicting") which allow players to stack bonuses to the sky greatly inflating highly comped groups from "anything goes" / "play how you want". More likely the bonuses are merged to reduce the amount of them similar to how alacrity was changed. If the bonuses are merged it becomes a net gain for warrior anyway as you fill in more of the boons/player defined roles rather than the rudimentary "quick/alac/heal" thinking at Arenanet balance.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

53 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Spotter doesn't overlap with banners. It's in addition to 10 man banners which is why every raid guide has gear for with and without spotter. When Arenanet moved alacrity to a boon they started this direction where everything is interchangeable, they even stated themselves they want your class choice to not matter whatsoever.
What do we have for quickness?

• Quick firebrand (condi/heal)
• Quick catalyst (power in most cases)
• Quick harbinger (condi in most cases)
• Quick scrapper (power/heal) --- no appreciable fury , some might
• Quick StM chrono  -- no might but possibility of some alac if you give up almost all DPS
• <--- Quick warrior of all variants

What do we have for alacrity?

• Alac ren (power/condi, lesser ran heal variant)
• Alac mech (heal, condi with 4 kits, power)
• Alac mirage (condi)
• Alac specter (condi)
• <--- Alac druid (heal)
• <--- alac tempest possibly (heal, condi mainly)

Go read
https://www.pcgamer.com/the-future-of-guild-wars-2-arenanet-announces-return-of-season-1-and-teases-next-expansion/

"Speaking to PvE as an example, our core roles for endgame (instanced) party content are DPS, Quickness, Alacrity, and Healing. In this context, GW2's flexible and robust buildcraft allow for a lot of possibilities to, in many combinations, tick two of these boxes at the same time (or pick DPS twice and do more damage!). Generally speaking, a build that is a DPS/support hybrid does about 3/4s the damage of a pure DPS build. Each profession has hybrid and pure DPS builds available among their specializations that are all within close theoretical maximums of comparable builds across other professions for damage output.
 

Arenanet doesn't see Banners as a role even if the playerbase does in every power comp. In fractals with the condi meta it hasn't been quite relevant since May 2021. Meta condi mechanist doesn't run pinpoint distribution so spotter is the main overlap ; what you're suggesting is that Arenanet simply disregard these overlap scenarios (when actually it is additional stats and not "conflicting") which allow players to stack bonuses to the sky greatly inflating highly comped groups from "anything goes" / "play how you want". More likely the bonuses are merged to reduce the amount of them similar to how alacrity was changed. If the bonuses are merged it becomes a net gain for warrior anyway as you fill in more of the boons/player defined roles rather than the rudimentary "quick/alac/heal" thinking at Arenanet balance.

Honestly, I don't get what these responses to me are about or what problem you are trying to illustrate here. My original response to you has NOTHING to do with any of this.

I'm simply saying we do have reasons to think banners aren't by default going to change to boons just because they are the method that delivers warrior quickness role to teams. I don't see why the possibility banners might not change to boons is so objectionable to you. Nothing I have said so far even talks about how I think Anet should handle overlaps and interactions of cross-class buffs; I actually DON'T CARE because I don't think it's that critical; we have had overlaps since FOREVER. They aren't going away because of Anet implementing roles.

I am saying whatever those overlaps or conflicts are, they shouldn't be part of how Anet implement the roles on a class because of how numerous and widespread they are.  Anet simply can't accommodate every team comp scenario in their role implementation, including whatever ones that end up being meta, especially if the goal is to have more class inclusion but the meta is limited to 5 positions. 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952