Should Vindicator's Dodge... be the dodge?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Imagine if the "dodge" was the F2 skill, and if Vinds got their regular dodge back.  I know this idea isn't perfect, but with how awkward it is to play Vind I can't help but wonder why it is that the Tenacious Ruin effect is even tied to the dodge at all.  The traits and the endurance bar effects all seem like they're there just to compensate for the heavy costs that dodging puts on us.

I know that this wouldn't be a simple idea, because it would require reworking and rebalancing all of Vind's traits and abilities, but I can't help but think it would be a great QoL improvement for the spec to just make F2 the Tenacious Ruin/Grandmaster dodge skill.  

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

I would rather they not separate the dodge and instead fine tune it to make it more worthwhile/remove any bugs where needed. The interactions with endurance regaining sigils/runes (like energy/stamina) and the other vigor/endurance traits provide a lot of extra build variety and options that would get removed if it was turned into “just an F skill” not to mention how it would be turned into a CD restricted ability as well more so than it is now 

Edited May 1, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[BALONEYPWNY.9258]

18 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I would rather they not separate the dodge and instead fine tune it to make it more worthwhile/remove any bugs where needed. The interactions with endurance regaining sigils/runes (like energy/stamina) and the other vigor/endurance traits provide a lot of extra build variety and options that would get removed if it was turned into “just an F skill” not to mention how it would be turned into a CD restricted ability as well more so than it is now 

Having to run energy sigils on both weapon sets to maintain a semblance of dodge uptime is a distinct *lack* of build variety.

 

Also, they already nerfed the trait that made the dodge somewhat worthwhile.

[The Boz.2038]

On 5/1/2022 at 2:29 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Imagine if the "dodge" was the F2 skill, and if Vinds got their regular dodge back.

Jesus Jumping Christ, this. So much this. This to the umpteenth degree.

Sure, they can keep Vindi at 1 dodge (prefer if they did that with a half capacity, not double cost, but whatever), plus a ~15s F Jump! dodge. Less clunky, more responsive, and doesn't actually screw you over in half the game's content.

[otto.5684]

Speaking purely from PvE, it is not a bad idea, realistically, I do not forsee it happening, as it will require much rework in the trait line. Overall, I find Vindicator sustain in PvE is good. This issue is when enemies become too spammy. A compromise solution would be to lower GS block CD from 10 secs to 8 secs. This should cover most of the downtime where a dodge is needed to avoid incoming damage.

[Howluffu.7259]

I'm going to quote the comment I put in another vindi dodge thread:

 

put the jump on the elite skill for each alliance stance so Archemorus has the death drop and the st viktor has the healing one then maybe the third one that extends boons has a major trait to both of the elite jumps to make it more group support, maybe even generating quickness.

Energy Meld is a pointless button only created to "alliviate" the stupid problem they created with the new dodge and should be gone for sure.

For the utilities I would dare to say to put the Spear in the Nomad's Advance slot but with the plottwist that instead of useless torment it pulls the enemy toward us like F1 dh giving Vindicator the CC it lacks and redesign the Urn and put it in Battle Dance place. We already have Shiro and GS3 for the gap closing and disengaging but alliance lack CC and better utility. Also instead of burning Scavenger Burst should put a Fire Field and be a melee cast without the cursor aiming, and the daze should be in the Urn so we have 2 forms of CC 1 each alliance side.

Finally, Redesign the major trait lines to not have to do anything with the jumps except for the Vassals of the Empire that should make the jump elites to also provide the extension of boons, giving boons(quickness inclusive) and chill for a more supporting oriented build in group content.

[Jthug.9506]

I will miss being able to have infinite dodges from sigils of stamina 😞 

 

I also question if Anet will let us retain the meager dps we have if they give us back normal dodges...

[Aeolus.3615]

I dont mind this offensive dodge but should always do damage, while the traits should be to improve its damage and the others to make less damage and give stuff like the current ones, but still  should do always damage.

Should also be a 1k range, that would use max stamina and exnter in exaustion mechanics but would boost damage, stamina should be burned while caster is dodge leaping, issue even if the  animation looks longer the dodge duration is the same and some skills will triger its effect while leap dodging animation.

Changing the mechanic to a long range with trade off  of using all stamina to keep dodging skill coud be strong but not that OP.

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Fan Didly Tastic.7169]

I am literally down for any change that makes it so that we no longer are punished for not dodging off CD(the trait that gives +10% dps for not having full stamina). Just so much no. I'm sure there is a world where the current configuration is correct, but this ain't it.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Fan Didly Tastic.7169
*shrug* better explanation

[Oldyoung.6109]

On 4/30/2022 at 8:44 PM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I would rather they not separate the dodge and instead fine tune it to make it more worthwhile/remove any bugs where needed. The interactions with endurance regaining sigils/runes (like energy/stamina) and the other vigor/endurance traits provide a lot of extra build variety and options that would get removed if it was turned into “just an F skill” not to mention how it would be turned into a CD restricted ability as well more so than it is now 

they could always make the new F2 cost endurance so it's still a choice not just a punishment.

[DEDA.6394]

Anet could just copy paste the rangers cele avatar bar (or skyscale) on top of the normal dodges and make it an F skill that scales of endurance gain and vigor ez

[TheeBlackDeath.5692]

On 4/30/2022 at 5:29 PM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Imagine if the "dodge" was the F2 skill, and if Vinds got their regular dodge back.  I know this idea isn't perfect, but with how awkward it is to play Vind I can't help but wonder why it is that the Tenacious Ruin effect is even tied to the dodge at all.  The traits and the endurance bar effects all seem like they're there just to compensate for the heavy costs that dodging puts on us.

I know that this wouldn't be a simple idea, because it would require reworking and rebalancing all of Vind's traits and abilities, but I can't help but think it would be a great QoL improvement for the spec to just make F2 the Tenacious Ruin/Grandmaster dodge skill.  

The dodge is only really awkward or clunky to use if you don't know how to play the spec or are just too used to other specs/profs, it goes without saying Vindicator certainly has a skill and game knowledge issue, but overall that's what makes it so fun and rewarding to play I'd say.

 

Not only that but the dodge has a much higher frame time of invincibility for most stuff over the standard dodges, along with boosting your dmg, boons, or healing you which is always a plus tbh. Don't get me started on Sigils of Stamina and Energy though...

[Fwog.9387]

Its a common theme in recent years for the design of elites to trade something from the core class in return for a new mechanic of some description. Usually this is trading a skill exclusive to the class itself, but in this particular case, you trade your dodge for a new dodge mechanic. (as well as the core rev f2 skill but that was added at a later date because there was no benefit to being core) 

Vindicator does add things to make up for the lack of dodge. Greatsword does have a block which would be relevant on some encounters. There are some encounters where rolling backward is also not ideal, blocking or dodging in place being the better option. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Jaricko.6143
Further elaboration.

[Akoneon.3860]

On 5/6/2022 at 6:27 AM, DEDA.6394 said:

Anet could just copy paste the rangers cele avatar bar (or skyscale) on top of the normal dodges and make it an F skill that scales of endurance gain and vigor ez

Or they could just copy the dare devil's bounding dodger.

[Catchyfx.5768]

18 hours ago, Akoneon.3860 said:

Or they could just copy the dare devil's bounding dodger.

It cannot be done like this, because those solution works. It have to be more cluncky to fit the theme.