Monetization & Reward change suggestions, and how that ties into the New Player Experience

[ribchop.1736]

Preface

I think everyone has been thinking a lot about the current problems with EOD (and in general, most of the game) rewards feeling very underwhelming. I want to emphasize the word feeling here, as from a gold per hour standpoint / gold per effort standpoint, there is a good bit of content that does actually give good gold, which can translate to good rewards. There are some areas of EOD specifically that need love here, but I don't think this is the big problem that is going to cause friction in the coming year as the Steam release grows closer. I'm painting the below from the perspective of your average Joe who doesn't know anything about GW2, but plays other MMOs.

TLDR
 

I think the core problems are
- The games monetization method prevents a lot of 'cosmetic loot' (weapons skins, skiff skins, etc) from being part of gameplay.
- To people new to the game this is vexing as the connection of farm gold from in game content (or swiping their credit card) > gems > that cosmetic they see in the gemstore isn't clear. This is especially confusing from the standpoint of a player joining a game which incentivizes horizontal progression with a gear plateau that never changes, and with the bulk of the reward from progression being cosmetic.

- The above ends up with the the in-game content feeling underwhelming with rewards (pretty wide regarded, well known public sentiment). This was especially apparent in EOD but also affects other areas of the game. Rewards are there (You can convert gold to gems to get them) but it doesn't feel like they are because they're not part of the gameplay loop.
- A lack of certain features following the game's monetization method, the main thing I highlighted here is Guilds. There is little / no guild-level monetization incentives which makes features around Guilds (like the new guild hall) lackluster from lack of resource allocation. (Compare the new guild hall to the Thousand Seas pavilion) 

I think possible solutions are
1. Select Gemstore skins tied to in-game, gryphon like, content
2. More Guild Rewards / Content, Changes to guild hall acquiring and costs
3. Strike / End game content rewards buff
4. Discounted Gemstore skin NPCs behind content. Buy gemstore skins directly from an NPC with gold after completing 'x' content
5. How this ties into the 'new player' experience and how a new player perceives the game.

TLDR Ended

And now for the text dump with further detail
 

Looking at the game from an outsider perspective if you were to take EOD at face value without spending money or in game currency on gems, the amount of skins  / armor sets / fishing poles / skiff skins available was insanely small. Some of the gemstore sets have helped with this (Especially with the skiff & Fishing pole, the fishing pole being the one I'm most disappointed about only having a small amount of skins) but I'd argue that from a player perspective it doesn't really feel as great as it could to get these, even if you've grinded for the gold to convert to gems for them. At the end of the day you're just going into the cash shop menu and clicking purchase. I understand there is a hard balance here where the business model requires selling of some of (or in my opinion most of) the best cosmetics, but I think there is room where that can still be done, while improving the player experience, and encouraging people to spend more of their money on the game. I'd also like to preface the below with the fact that I don't think anything should be removed from the cash shop, it should always be there as a convenience, which will continue to fund the game for years to come.

The first thing I'd like to see is something similar to the gryphon system, but for other cosmetics, not every cosmetic but the really cool ones. A good example is the new Shrio skins, these are by far some of the coolest skins I've ever seen, but the only way I'm introduced to them is directly via the gemstore menu. I feel like the gryphon system would work well here, placing NPCs across Cantha that you have to visit and spend a certain amount of gold in total to get the collection, to unlock the skins for yourself. This could even cost more gold than if you straight up bought gems with gold to buy the collection, but I feel like having the cool skins tied to gameplay in game, rather than just in the cash shop menu would make obtaining them feel more rewarding, and thus also making EOD feel like it has more rewards available, without having to add new currencies, and without requiring a whole lotta work. There will still always be the incentive there of 'You can swipe to get this instantly' (In fact this is exactly what I did to pay for my gryphon lmao) and if anything it would only increase sales as the average casual player who sees those cool skins, grind for part of them and say 'screw it' and just swipe. It's also a good place to tie in more lore to get the player even more immersed in the world.

The second thing I'd love to see is more guild based rewards. Guilds are an area which I feel could have more reward structures in place for completing content together, while also offering a good place for a money sink (which in-turn means a potential gemstore purchase area). There is so much that could be done here from more guild unlockable armor / skins (that aren't just the guild's emblem on something), WvW specific stuff (Dolyak skins, siege equipment skins, when alliances come even things like dedicated banner spots at spawn that refill with the consumables already in the guild bank, etc), guild skiff / fishing skins, gemstore guild cosmetic unlocks, etc. This isn't something many will agree with I'd think, but personally I'd love to see the costs associated with a guild go up, if it meant there was room for more guild related content. Increasing the cost for higher guild caps, having a maintenance cost over a certain sized guild, making guild consumables cost more, etc. As an aside here, one place I thought EOD was a little disappointing was the guild hall. It's clear that the lack of it being a monetized feature impacted both the look, feel and polish of the new guild hall and I think that's something that should be addressed. A good way to see this is to look at the Thousand Seas Pavilion, this map / area is amazing and I think it even as is would have made a better guild hall than the current one. If it meant we could have more / better guild halls in the game, I'd love to see some halls being locked behind a very large sum of gold + progression that's currently there. There is an issue here where smaller guilds would have to work harder for these things (or swipe harder) but being honest having a guild of 3-4 active players with 10 people total, that's already a problem and something I don't mind personally as when our small group works for something big in our guild, it feels very rewarding already.

The third thing I'll mention is strike rewards, and in general end-game content rewards. I think yall have done a great job at improving the rewards behind things like the final meta, and I hope to see this move to strikes and other end game content as well. LFG UI problems aside, the incentive to do strikes vs / amount of work to set one up is heavily weighted against them. The new challenge mode was wicked fun, but given the amount of setup and effort you have to put into it, feels underwhelming when you beat it after the first few times. I think yall are already on the right path for this however, and it's only a matter of time before this will be fixed. If I had one gripe here I'd say I wished there were just a few more skins available, in EOD specifically it'd be great to see some void related stuff. Getting to the end of EOD it didn't feel like there was a whole lot of rewards to get, especially with this being the grandiose 'end' to the dragon franchise. I (and I think most people) have the feeling that we're gonna see some of this as LWS5 approaches, more of the dragon legendries for example, maybe a void themed one, but it would have been good for 2-3 more available before you beat the game.

The fourth thing I'll discuss, which slightly ties into the first, is a new type of NPC. These new NPCs would carry current gemstore skins, maybe (or maybe not) at a discounted rate of the current gold value of gems, but more importantly would be in the world where they make sense. These could (or could not) be gated behind certain content / masteries etc, which would influence unlocking them for a discount, or even for exclusive skins, but either way would be a more natural way to acquire the item, and also could leave room for a 'buy it with gems' button in that NPC to increase sales / encourage people to invest in the game. Part of what makes getting a new cosmetic feel good is the actual process of going to get it, and I think this will add to that feeling for the cash-shop related content even if it just was a 1-1 conversion of gold to gems. It may seem like a silly thing, but having them in the world, as silly as it may seem, I think would make it feel to players that there are more rewards available than there are currently (Even though they're there, it doesn't feel like they are because they're behind a menu).

 

Lastly I'll talk a bit about the new player experience. As an avid Guild Wars 1 fan, most cosmetics in that game always felt like a reward. From getting a good chaos axe, to farming for the torment weapons, to getting a fellblade or from getting your first voltaic spear, getting every single one of those felt like an accomplishment. I'll agree however that the model of just having a ton of detailed cosmetics in the game at no cost is not a sustainable one in a game that is buy once play forever, and I think this is where Guild Wars 2 has lost some of it's magic. As I've explained above, this is where I think tieing some of the cosmetics into gameplay would make the game feel more appealing. For the game being known as Fashion Wars 2,  and there being no stat progression past 80, I think it would be beneficial for the new players to understand that obtaining these nice new cosmetics is part of the end game, and pushing them toward that will ensure they're a long-time player. 

Thanks for sticking in with me if you read this far, curious to hear others' thoughts about the above as well!

Edit
I moved the TLDR up to the top for those who don't wanna read through the whole thing 🙂 

Edited May 4, 2022 by ribchop.1736
I moved the TLDR up to the top for those who don't wanna read through the whole thing

[Vayne.8563]

I don't really have comments on the whole post, because I didn't read the whole post. But I did read part of the premise, where it talked about rewards being disappointing from the gold per hour spec.

I'm not convinced that most of the playerbase that exists today, nevermind new players are actually thinking in terms of gold per hour. I'm not thinking in terms of gold per hour. I tend to think in terms of fun per hour.  I don't care how much gold I'm making if I'm not having a good time. That's my current problem with legendary armor. I don't really enjoy most of the ways to get it, not for those time frames anyway, so I may never get a full set, or I may simply get one over 10 years if the game is still around ten years from now.

 

In the mean time, when I do fun stuff, I'm not watching gold per hour. And while a lot of players who focus on gold per hour complain about rewards, a lot of very casual players are feeling rewarded because they simply don't know the value of anything. They see stuff flying into their inventory all the time, and they're happy they're getting rewards.  Because most people aren't competitive. And most don't come here to compare rewards with others.

I've always seen this game as a game of trickles. Stuff trickles in. I always end up with enough stuff to get what I need and a lot of what I want. The fact is, running a fairly large casual guild, very few people ever say to me the game isn't rewarding.

 

 

[Freya.9075]

Way too much text. I tried though. However you’re starting with an assumption that all ppl are thinking about the problems of eod? Based on what? I know several players that enjoy the content including me. I don’t think about the “problems” at all. I enjoy the game for what it is. Don’t speak for everyone. that will devaluate your post. 

[Sarius.9285]

31 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I don't really have comments on the whole post, because I didn't read the whole post. But I did read part of the premise, where it talked about rewards being disappointing from the gold per hour spec.

The post said the exact opposite of that.

 

26 minutes ago, Freya.9075 said:

However you’re starting with an assumption that all ppl are thinking about the problems of eod? Based on what? I know several players that enjoy the content

it's a hyperbole of course. But it's true, many people think that way 

[ribchop.1736]

Yeah this is coming from my perspective of course but also has been along the same lines as what I've seen people commenting on in the wider community as well. Yeah it was a wall of text, sorry about that. To be fair there is a reason it's a wall of text though as it's not just a surface level discussion, but yeah probably would have been better in a video format or something.

You really need to read the full post to get where I'm going with this but the 'TLDR'  of my post is below.

I think the core problems are
- The games monetization method prevents a lot of 'cosmetic loot' (weapons skins, skiff skins, etc) from being part of gameplay.
- To people new to the game this is vexing as the connection of farm gold from in game content (or swiping their credit card) > gems > that cosmetic they see in the gemstore isn't clear. This is especially confusing from the standpoint of a player joining a game which incentivizes horizontal progression with a gear plateau that never changes, and with the bulk of the reward from progression being cosmetic.

- The above ends up with the the in-game content feeling underwhelming with rewards (pretty wide regarded, well known public sentiment). This was especially apparent in EOD but also affects other areas of the game. Rewards are there (You can convert gold to gems to get them) but it doesn't feel like they are because they're not part of the gameplay loop.
- A lack of certain features following the game's monetization method, the main thing I highlighted here is Guilds. There is little / no guild-level monetization incentives which makes features around Guilds (like the new guild hall) lackluster from lack of resource allocation. (Compare the new guild hall to the Thousand Seas pavilion) 

As far as solutions you can read those in the first posts TLDR, or read through each section I posted for more detail. I've added the TLDR to the top of the first post to make it easier to digest

Edited May 4, 2022 by ribchop.1736

[kharmin.7683]

TLDR but it appears to be another complaint about items being in the gem store and not by other means and thus feeling like game play is unrewarding?

[Southerncarl.2740]

47 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

TLDR but it appears to be another complaint about items being in the gem store and not by other means and thus feeling like game play is unrewarding?

 

This is what is pretty much being said and the original poster is right but to be honest OP I wouldn't even bother wasting your time talking about cash shops to GW2 players and just modern MMO players in general. Most of them have grown up never knowing a time when micro transactions weren't a part of gaming. They don't get why it's bad They don't get how it makes the game worse and they never will. 

It's best to just leave it GW2 players will actively shill for monetization like they own shares in the company haha.

[disco.9302]

1. Your TLDR is too long.
2. The rest of the text is not going to be read by most anyway (no offence but its nearly 2000 words and that's wack long)
3. No new ideas - just the old "put gem store items in the game" rehashed/redressed.
4. Guess what? As long as gold to gems exists, the items are in the game - you just want them cheaper.

What would you rather? a mount skin costing 1k gems or 200gold? (at current conversion it's approx 210gold to buy those gems so it barely any difference)

[Rasimir.6239]

16 minutes ago, Southerncarl.2740 said:

Most of them have grown up never knowing a time when micro transactions weren't a part of gaming. They don't get why it's bad They don't get how it makes the game worse and they never will. 

Speak for yourself.

 

I've played (too many) video games since the mid-80s, and I vastly prefer GW2s reward system of keeping most rewards accessible to everyone via in-game trading to the system many other games have where you have to grind and hope to be lucky to get the cosmetic (or whatever) you'd like.

 

Account-bound in-game loot in other games, especially with cosmetic components like mouns, equipment skins, and similar, most of the time is tied to very specific content (this dungeon, that boss, or that other small area you can run circles in), often with random drop chances. Instead of playing what parts/areas/bosses of the game I enjoy, the game chooses the content for me if I want specific drops, and even makes me run said content repeatedly if I'm unlucky.

 

In GW2 I can play the content I enjoy and still get access to the vast majority of rewards thanks to our in-game trading post that allows me to trade in loot I don't need right now for other drops that I'd like to have but wasn't lucky enough to get (or simply didn't play the right content for).

 

It gets down to the question of whether you want something because you honestly like and enjoy it, or want it for "bragging rights". Personally I'll always prefer a game that gives me avenues to both items I may need to access parts of the game (e.g. ascended armor) and items I'd like to have (cosmetics) while also allowing me to choose which content to play without seriously extending (or worse totally gimping) my progress towards said items.

[Freya.9075]

6 hours ago, ribchop.1736 said:

Yeah this is coming from my perspective of course but also has been along the same lines as what I've seen people commenting on in the wider community as well. Yeah it was a wall of text, sorry about that. To be fair there is a reason it's a wall of text though as it's not just a surface level discussion, but yeah probably would have been better in a video format or something.

You really need to read the full post to get where I'm going with this but the 'TLDR'  of my post is below.

I think the core problems are
- The games monetization method prevents a lot of 'cosmetic loot' (weapons skins, skiff skins, etc) from being part of gameplay.
- To people new to the game this is vexing as the connection of farm gold from in game content (or swiping their credit card) > gems > that cosmetic they see in the gemstore isn't clear. This is especially confusing from the standpoint of a player joining a game which incentivizes horizontal progression with a gear plateau that never changes, and with the bulk of the reward from progression being cosmetic.

- The above ends up with the the in-game content feeling underwhelming with rewards (pretty wide regarded, well known public sentiment). This was especially apparent in EOD but also affects other areas of the game. Rewards are there (You can convert gold to gems to get them) but it doesn't feel like they are because they're not part of the gameplay loop.
- A lack of certain features following the game's monetization method, the main thing I highlighted here is Guilds. There is little / no guild-level monetization incentives which makes features around Guilds (like the new guild hall) lackluster from lack of resource allocation. (Compare the new guild hall to the Thousand Seas pavilion) 

As far as solutions you can read those in the first posts TLDR, or read through each section I posted for more detail. I've added the TLDR to the top of the first post to make it easier to digest

But you don’t need gemstore skins. I would even go as far as claiming most good fashion choices do not come from the gemstore but the collections you have to do to achieve that skin. That is however purely based on opinions as all fashion is. Point is they already added ingame rewards regards to fashion. 
 

we all were new players at one point, and I came to gw2 a couple years ago and stayed since it gave me a good impression as a new player. Not saying it can’t improve, all games can improve for sure, but there is a reason gw2 is as populated as it is. So they are doing something right to keep the new players. Keep in mind most players that are new are game hoppers and want to try new games no matter how good they are. Locust gamers do exist. 
 

when I started the game, gemstore was not confusing at all but a blessing. I could actually just play the game and get what I wanted with ingame currency. 

[Cyninja.2954]

The main monetization of this game happens via the gem store. As such, there needs to be a motivator for players to spend gems on the gem store (notice gems, not necessarily money).

 

The second main motivator is a need for gold. Which in turn motivates players to convert gems to gold, most likely having purchased those gems initially with money.

 

The interaction between the desire to acquire things for gems and the desire for gold to spend in game results in the exchange on the gem-gold exchange, where players with excess gold or excess money/gems will interact with each other while also incurring a tax to full-fill ones demands. The tax is what makes it more valuable to the in-game economy to have a player convert gold to gems and buy something off the black lion trading post instead of buying the gems with money themselves.

 

Any adaptation in reward structure which work against this monetization will yield a potential loss. Alteration may include account bound items which are not sell able in any form, rewards which outclass or make inconsequential a desired item on the black lion trading post or simply unbalancing the acquisition in either area.

 

If you are giving advice on improving rewards, make sure to account for the aforementioned otherwise you can rest assured that the ideas will go unheard for the most part by the developers. Unless the idea somehow benefits the monetization by accident, which most ideas of "give us more in area XYZ" do not.

[DeanBB.4268]

There are over 6000 armor and weapons skins available in the game. There are about 500 armor and weapon skins available in the gem store. I'm fairly certain any player can make their character look good with what's offered in-game.

[ribchop.1736]

5 hours ago, disco.9302 said:

1. Your TLDR is too long.
2. The rest of the text is not going to be read by most anyway (no offence but its nearly 2000 words and that's wack long)
3. No new ideas - just the old "put gem store items in the game" rehashed/redressed.
4. Guess what? As long as gold to gems exists, the items are in the game - you just want them cheaper.

What would you rather? a mount skin costing 1k gems or 200gold? (at current conversion it's approx 210gold to buy those gems so it barely any difference)

Think you missed the point. I could care less if they're less expensive. The post is a discussion about how the main form of monetization isn't well integrated into the core game loop, and specifically explains how I think it could be further integrated to increase the amount of monetized content that is bought / purchased while offering benefits to the core game loop itself. It explains more natural ways to introduce the monetized content in the game that are already there, with the added benefit of the average Joe realizing there is all this content available to them.

 

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If you are giving advice on improving rewards, make sure to account for the aforementioned otherwise you can rest assured that the ideas will go unheard for the most part by the developers. Unless the idea somehow benefits the monetization by accident, which most ideas of "give us more in area XYZ" do not.

Think something has been misunderstood here, the main point of the post isn't to improve rewards, or to make them cheaper, it's to improve accessibility to what is already there. How that's implemented (whether it's a vendor who has them for a gold amount, or a vendor who you click in and it takes you to the gems screen) obviously is up to Arenanet. My point is that the gemstore itself is not a good enough way to introduce players to some of the monetized content, and it doesn't feel like a 'natural' part of the game. This (I believe, this is a bit of speculation on my part) I think is leading to players feeling like there is a lack of rewards in game, maybe not with the broader game as a whole, but definitely with EOD. 

 

5 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

But you don’t need gemstore skins. I would even go as far as claiming most good fashion choices do not come from the gemstore but the collections you have to do to achieve that skin. That is however purely based on opinions as all fashion is. Point is they already added ingame rewards regards to fashion. 

 

1 hour ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

There are over 6000 armor and weapons skins available in the game. There are about 500 armor and weapon skins available in the gem store. I'm fairly certain any player can make their character look good with what's offered in-game.

The point of the post was less about the player's need for gemstore skins / content and more about the fact that they should want them and the game (And Arenanet) should push the player towards them. Can you make your character look good without them? Obviously yeah, there is plenty available. Should Arenanet encourage you to acquire the gemstore content more? I think that's also a definitely. This is where I think some improvements to how they introduce this content to the player will increase sales for them, and thereby increase the quality (and quantity) of content. Outside of that my only other argument is Guilds aren't monetized well and comparing the work done in Thousand Seas Pavillion pass to the new guild hall shows the difference that properly monetizing the content could have a positive effect on a part of the game that doesn't often get love.

[Freya.9075]

18 minutes ago, ribchop.1736 said:

Think you missed the point. I could care less if they're less expensive. The post is a discussion about how the main form of monetization isn't well integrated into the core game loop, and specifically explains how I think it could be further integrated to increase the amount of monetized content that is bought / purchased while offering benefits to the core game loop itself. It explains more natural ways to introduce the monetized content in the game that are already there, with the added benefit of the average Joe realizing there is all this content available to them.

 

Think something has been misunderstood here, the main point of the post isn't to improve rewards, or to make them cheaper, it's to improve accessibility to what is already there. How that's implemented (whether it's a vendor who has them for a gold amount, or a vendor who you click in and it takes you to the gems screen) obviously is up to Arenanet. My point is that the gemstore itself is not a good enough way to introduce players to some of the monetized content, and it doesn't feel like a 'natural' part of the game. This (I believe, this is a bit of speculation on my part) I think is leading to players feeling like there is a lack of rewards in game, maybe not with the broader game as a whole, but definitely with EOD. 

 

 

The point of the post was less about the player's need for gemstore skins / content and more about the fact that they should want them and the game (And Arenanet) should push the player towards them. Can you make your character look good without them? Obviously yeah, there is plenty available. Should Arenanet encourage you to acquire the gemstore content more? I think that's also a definitely. This is where I think some improvements to how they introduce this content to the player will increase sales for them, and thereby increase the quality (and quantity) of content. Outside of that my only other argument is Guilds aren't monetized well and comparing the work done in Thousand Seas Pavillion pass to the new guild hall shows the difference that properly monetizing the content could have a positive effect on a part of the game that doesn't often get love.

Ah I see. I do agree guilds could use some more love. While I like the new guild hall, I can see the struggle to decorate it properly due to space. And the lack of new decorations were a disappointment.
 

Im not sure how they could make fashion accessibility and gemstore items better though. Since it has to cater to so many different players. Some wants to buy the items for real money, some wants to buy with ingame currency, and some wants it to be locked behind hardcore content or collections. It will be interesting to see if they do some changes before steam release. And hopefully they will market the game a bit better. 

[Solvar.7953]

By definition with gems <-> gold exchange, anything that can be bought for gems can be bought with in game currency (gold), and the reverse is also true.

Things locked behind collections can only be done by those collections, which limits availability.  While in many cases, that can also be bought (pay someone to walk you through whatever that content is), that probably isn't a very good experience for the user.

 

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, Solvar.7953 said:

By definition with gems <-> gold exchange, anything that can be bought for gems can be bought with in game currency (gold), and the reverse is also true.

Things locked behind collections can only be done by those collections, which limits availability.  While in many cases, that can also be bought (pay someone to walk you through whatever that content is), that probably isn't a very good experience for the user.

 

Yes but the users have a choice learn to do it them self, pay someone else to do it or dont do it and not get the thing.

[ribchop.1736]

19 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

Ah I see. I do agree guilds could use some more love. While I like the new guild hall, I can see the struggle to decorate it properly due to space. And the lack of new decorations were a disappointment.
 

Im not sure how they could make fashion accessibility and gemstore items better though. Since it has to cater to so many different players. Some wants to buy the items for real money, some wants to buy with ingame currency, and some wants it to be locked behind hardcore content or collections. It will be interesting to see if they do some changes before steam release. And hopefully they will market the game a bit better. 

 

Yeah, that's the main reason why I think they need to monetize some of the guild content. People want more guild things / better guild  halls / etc, and I don't think anyone has a problem with there being incentive to spend money there if it means we get something even just 50% better than the current system.

 

10 hours ago, Solvar.7953 said:

By definition with gems <-> gold exchange, anything that can be bought for gems can be bought with in game currency (gold), and the reverse is also true.

Things locked behind collections can only be done by those collections, which limits availability.  While in many cases, that can also be bought (pay someone to walk you through whatever that content is), that probably isn't a very good experience for the user.

 

 

On gemstore accessibility, that's where the original post went into detail, I don't think there is 'one' solution but could be a lot of solutions implemented simultaneously, and is why I was recommending collection (like the gryphons) as a way to get a discount on these items. Not from the standpoint of me wanting it cheaper, but from the point of the people who are putting in the work to get the gold for them anyway would now have acquiring these special items not just live in the UI.

Outside of collections I think even just vendor NPCs that take you to the gem page, or even one that converts your coins to gems and vice versa, with the current stuff that is in the gemstore either in another NPC or a different tab of that NPC makes sense. It gives them another place to push you towards buying gems (they can make a button dead on the NPCs sell screen) and also will make the casual player feel like there is more rewards available to them (Because they'll come across them naturally in game)