Edit: New ES Legend Summons or Renegade Rework

[SoulGuardian.6203]

(Renegade Rework) or new...

Elite Spec Name: Ying Yang

 

Description :

Use Your energy to summon active legend to fight at your side for as long as energy lasts or until slayed in battle. 

 

Edit:

F2 is now replaced with Invoke Legend when Invocation new ES or Renegade traitline is active.

 

Legend is fully autonomous but will attack your target.

 

Legends have their own set of skills.

EG. Shiro uses Double swords Skills: Deathstrike, and Unrelenting Assault.

 

The concept would be for a new ES or Renegade rework.

Since Renegade already kinda does that anyways.

 

On a personal note, and it's just my oppinion. 

Renegade should have Pyre Fierceshot and Warband as a Legend.

 

Each Utility Skill would summon the respective Fierce Warband member.

Now, instead of static holograms, an actual character is summoned.

 

F2 Summons Pyre Fierceshot and other active legends.

Elite skill summons a Siege Devour.

 

In cases such as Glint, she will use the elite skill as attack #1 to knock down foes,  and a breath of fire attack.

 

Traitlines. 

I'm using Renegade traitline. 

But could be a template for a new ES.

 

Heroic Command: 

Your legend gains a stack of might every 5 seconds while summoned. You and your allies gain those stacks of might when you voluntarily recall the legend.

If you run out of energy you and your allies gain Ambush Commander instead; which gives you all a 2% increase to all damage for 10 seconds if you critical hit within the next 5 seconds.

 

Ashen Demeanor:

You cause burning when you summon a legend.

 

Blood Fury:

When legend is not active, bleeding you inflict lasts longer. In addition if legend is recalled or slayed in battle, you gain fury, and inflict 2% more overall damage.

 

Iron Will:

When you recall a legend, you and all your allies near by gain 2 random boons + any boons your legend has.

 

Endless Enmity :

No change

 

Empowering Roar

No change

 

Heartpiercer

No change

 

All for one:

No change

 

Brutal Momentum :

No change

 

Vindication:

(Should be a vindicator skill)

If your legend gets slayed in battle, you gain 5 stacks of might.

 

Lasting Legacy:

If you swap legends while in summoned mode, any boons on that legend transfers to the next. If you recall it, you gain the boons instead.

 

Righteous Rebel:

While your legend is not active, you gain damage reduction by 4%

If legend is active, 4% damage is inflicted to it instead of you.

 

----

 

Note:

The OP was changed slightly from the initial idea to change core to another member suggestion to be a New ES, and my second thoughts to rework renegade after reading a few comments about the state of Renegade.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203
Added more details

[Shao.7236]

Because that's not the idea behind Revenant.

 

You channel the powers at your benefits, not have the literal entity that you borrow from be there and do it for you instead.

 

Herald's elite skill makes it quite obvious for what Anet is going for.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

12 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Because that's not the idea behind Revenant.

 

You channel the powers at your benefits, not have the literal entity that you borrow from be there and do it for you instead.

 

Herald's elite skill makes it quite obvious for what Anet is going for.

Renegade invokes charr spirits.

I can see what their going for.

You're so right..

*Rolls eyes

[draxynnic.3719]

11 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Renegade invokes charr spirits.

I can see what their going for.

You're so right..

*Rolls eyes

Renegade is a specific exception because Kalla's core trait was her leadership and inspirational abilities, rather than personal power. So that gets manifested by invoking echoes of her subordinates. You'll note that none of those summons are echoes of Kalla herself.

If you wanted a counterexample, you'd be better off looking at Viktor and Archemorus, but Vindicator is just a mess thematically in general. But hey, the elite there is exactly what you're asking for, it's just a matter of throwing one spear and disappearing again.

For the others, though, I prefer the existing skills. The core identity is channelling the power of the legends through the revenant's own body, not summoning them externally. In some cases, that might involve controlling some subordinate, but not in all cases. Besides, I don't think there's any realistic way they could do what you're asking for with regards to Glint (and to a lesser extent, Shiro and Mallyx) and have it be balanced without being a massive disappointment. 

[vilesoldier.9826]

I want to become a demon, not be a demon-mancer.

[Obtena.7952]

"How come the game doesn't work how I think it should work?" ... because the game works how Anet thinks it should, not you. 

As for the idea of summoning a spirit as a companion to do your dirty work ... no thanks. It might be awesome ... for RPing. In practice, we already see how terrible this is as an idea. The fact that Renegade legend skill effectiveness is dependent on the summon not being killed (and as far as I have seen, you can't heal them or mitigate damage to them) is the very definition of hot garbage juice. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

"How come the game doesn't work how I think it should work?" ... because the game works how Anet thinks it should, not you. 

Nah. Are you accusing me or just projecting?

I merely gave an idea. No need for so much drama. I'm not that bothered. To me is just a game, not a way of life.

 

I think some of you are taking this way to seriously.

 

I mostly like to contribute by giving concept ideas.

ANet decides if to take them into consideration or not. 

 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

As for the idea of summoning a spirit as a companion to do your dirty work ... no thanks. It might be awesome ... for RPing. In practice, we already see how terrible this is as an idea. The fact that Renegade legend skill effectiveness is dependent on the summon not being killed (and as far as I have seen, you can't heal them or mitigate damage to them) is the very definition of hot garbage juice. 

Why is it such a terrible idea? 

I'm not a fan of the charr holograms myself, but who says that you can't have both?

Become the legend yourself or invoke it?

 

What if ANet decides to do it?

What if they like the idea and add an F button wich toggles between what we have now and invoking the legend?

What if they decide they will do that for core as a Trade-Off?

 

Are you dictating to ANet what they can and can't do?

Do you speak on their behalf?

Why does it make you so nervous when someone posts an idea that ANet might like?

 

They have changed so many things since launch.

They've reworked entire tratelines, skill sets, weapons. 

What makes you so sure that they won't like my idea and integrate it?

They just might.

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Why is it such a terrible idea? 

I already explained why ... because you invest in executing a skill that has an effectiveness that depends on it not snuffing out early because of AOE DPS. That's total garbage because you spend the action and the result is highly variable. There isn't even a trade off there, you just get screwed if your charr summon dies early. 

Quote

I'm not a fan of the charr holograms myself, but who says that you can't have both?

Hold on .. this isn't a debate about what a person can imagine could be in the game; that could be anything. I could argue unicorns would be the best thing ever ... but I'm sure I'm not going to get those. I'm basing my argument on what is the current reality of the game.

I mean, what is the value of Anet making summons and no die from damage, other than for RP? The skills would still work the same. There isn't any practical reason for it to work the way you are imagining other than it looking cool. I mean, OK it would look cool. 🤷‍♂️

Just going to put this out there though ... it's completely conceivable that the reason Renegade has summons is so they ARE impacted by damage. So how does someone come to the conclusion that other legends that may be changed to summons would be regarded any different if we are talking about Anet changing how non-Renegade legend skills work?

Edited June 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

Renegade summons being garbage because they can be damaged and CC'd is a fairly simplistic viewpoint. They're pretty darn strong if they're not disrupted, apart from the bleeding one that requires pretty much optimal conditions to be worth the energy, and in PvE they benefit from reduced damage unless specifically targeted by an enemy. In PvP, believe me, the daze summon usually survives long enough. It's probably mostly a problem with not realising the elite has been repositioned by a CC and wasting the energy upkeep on the wrong spot.

On the wider topic:

Yes, everyone has the right to present suggestions.

People also have the right to express disagreement with those suggestions. In most cases, if you make a suggestion and people oppose it, they're not attacking you for making a suggestion, they're attacking the suggestion because they don't think it will actually improve the game. (There are some that do have a strange "it's ArenaNet's game and therefore whatever you do is automatically correct, how dare you criticise them?" attitude).

In this case... ultimately, revenant players don't want revenant to be another ranger-like or mechanist-like profession that always has an AI companion, and that's basically what you're suggesting here. The fantasy of revenant is to have a playstyle that mimics a being of legend, not to be another pet profession.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

You sure you play the right game genre? Maybe pseudo rpg rts would be better fit?

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Renegade summons being garbage because they can be damaged and CC'd is a fairly simplistic viewpoint. They're pretty darn strong if they're not disrupted, apart from the bleeding one that requires pretty much optimal conditions to be worth the energy, and in PvE they benefit from reduced damage unless specifically targeted by an enemy. In PvP, believe me, the daze summon usually survives long enough. It's probably mostly a problem with not realising the elite has been repositioned by a CC and wasting the energy upkeep on the wrong spot.

Why is it simplistic? The majority of all other skills in the game do not have this problem. The strength of the skill has should have nothing to do with it's duration ... if it does, why is duration a variable parameter and strength is not? 

You realize that most of the time, where someone would want the Renegade skill placed is affected by DPS or CC right? I see no reason to think other skills, if being a summons, would be any different. I see no reason to advocate that approach, unless someone likes RP and don't care about effective skills in gameplay. 

What compounds this problem is that we don't get to select the skills because they are baked into the legend. So in that case, it's COMPLETELY reasonable to expect the skills you have to be fully effective, ALWAYS.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ArthurDent.9538]

Pet classes are lame so no to your idea.

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Why is it simplistic? The majority of all other skills in the game do not have this problem. The strength of the skill has should have nothing to do with it's duration ... if it does, why is duration a variable parameter and strength is not? 

You realize that most of the time, where someone would want the Renegade skill placed is affected by DPS or CC right? I see no reason to think other skills, if being a summons, would be any different. I see no reason to advocate that approach, unless someone likes RP and don't care about effective skills in gameplay. 

What compounds this problem is that we don't get to select the skills because they are baked into the legend. So in that case, it's COMPLETELY reasonable to expect the skills you have to be fully effective, ALWAYS.

Because a flat "it can be killed/CC'd, therefore it's garbage" doesn't take into account how powerful most of the Kalla summons are if they're NOT killed or CC'd. A skill having counterplay, or needing to be placed carefully sometimes, doesn't make it automatically garbage, you need to consider if the payoff when it does work is worth needing to take a few more things into account rather than just throwing it down blindly.

And it absolutely is.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

I don't want literal AI summons, but I'd be happy with better unique animations for Ancient Echo that reflect the legend in the same vein as Glint's Chaotic Release or the general legend swap animations. When they implemented Ancient Echo, I was really disappointed that they didn't really put any effort into this.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

19 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Pet classes are lame so no to your idea.

Ok.

So you don't play Ele, mesmer, necro, ranger, engie...

That just leaves Heavy classes and thief.

How many character slots do you have?

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Ok.

So you don't play Ele, mesmer, necro, ranger, engie...

That just leaves Heavy classes and thief.

How many character slots do you have?

Mesmer and ranger are the only two of those that have to have pets at all, and soulbeasts can perma-merge.

[Sobx.1758]

On 6/16/2022 at 4:43 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Renegade invokes charr spirits.

I can see what their going for.

You're so right..

*Rolls eyes

Yeah, then that's "the renegade thing" and if that's what you want... just play renegade. 🤷‍♂️

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Because a flat "it can be killed/CC'd, therefore it's garbage" doesn't take into account how powerful most of the Kalla summons are if they're NOT killed or CC'd. A skill having counterplay, or needing to be placed carefully sometimes, doesn't make it automatically garbage, you need to consider if the payoff when it does work is worth needing to take a few more things into account rather than just throwing it down blindly.

And it absolutely is.

Hold on ... I am taking how strong they are if they don't die into account because that's how I expect EVERY single skill in this game to work. What is happening here is that YOU aren't taking into account how garbage they are if they DO die. I'm spending action, time and energy cost to use these skills, and that is the SAME regardless even if they die early. That's garbage. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Ok.

So you don't play Ele, mesmer, necro, ranger, engie...

That just leaves Heavy classes and thief.

How many character slots do you have?

Wow guardian spirits so kitten u dont even listed em up. That alone sums up performance of said garbage. Besides apart from ranger/mes those things are optional. In fact with soulbeast and virtuoso they can opt out of those kitten mechanics as well. Just play renegade or rts game

[SoulGuardian.6203]

2 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Wow guardian spirits so kitten u dont even listed em up.

So from your perspective, everything in GW2 that's not melee is rubbish.

2 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

That alone sums up performance of said garbage.

You're a ray of sunshine.

Wonder why do you even play GW.

2 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Besides apart from ranger/mes those things are optional.

Yes they are optional. 

But a lot of people use them.

2 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

In fact with soulbeast and virtuoso they can opt out of those kitten mechanics as well.

Just aswell. 

I must agree with you on this though.

Not gonna lie.

Virtuoso was a welcome change.

2 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Just play renegade or rts game

I do have a Renegade.

But as I mentioned, I don't like the charr only army of static holograms.

I like helpers to move and have nice textures. 

I don't like cheap work in a videogame. 

FF12 only cost me around £10. Look at the amazing work.

I never spent so much money on a videogame as I did in GW 1 and 2.

There are many aspects of the game which, honestly, I expected better.

I'm not going to start mentioning everything about every class and its ES, because that'd be a pretty long list.

But you don't see me moaning and complaining, or according to you how trash everything is.

I don't criticise the game or the devs.

I give them ideas.

That's the difference. 

 

Have a nice day.

[draxynnic.3719]

19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... I am taking how strong they are if they don't die into account because that's how I expect EVERY single skill in this game to work. What is happening here is that YOU aren't taking into account how garbage they are if they DO die. I'm spending action, time and energy cost to use these skills, and that is the SAME regardless even if they die early. That's garbage. 

It's a risk/reward balance. If they do stay for their full duration and aren't interrupted or otherwise rendered ineffective in some fashion, the impact they have is significantly greater than that of utilities on other legends with similar energy costs.

Consider Darkrazor's Daring. It basically shuts any enemy player in its area down for 6 seconds, unless they have a big stack of stability. Stunbreaks don't matter - because you'll just get dazed again before you have the chance to actually do anything. It'll also rip through stability and/or defiance. And it does this in an area, and can be planted 600 units away. The only defence is to get out of its area, have someone outside the area who has the presence of mind to knock it away or kill it (which means that in the meantime, they're not pressuring someone else, unless that someone is within an AoW of Darkrazor) or have enough stability to kill it yourself (same parenthetical remark).

All for the pretty low cost of 30 energy, and a reasonably short recharge for an area CC.

Compare that to the other CC options revenant has on utilities. Jade Winds has a massive tell and can be broken by a single stunbreak. Short recharge, but at 50 energy, you probably aren't using it multiple times in quick succession. Call to Anguish will give you an area pull at a 30-35 energy cost, depending on game mode. Forced Engagement is cheap, but is a weaker CC (the enemy will still autoattack you), more easily broken, shorter duration, and longer recharge. Energy Expulsion blows all your energy. Chaotic Release has a 20s recharge in PvE and 35 in competitive. Alliance Stance doesn't have a CC.

It's susceptible to being disrupted, but the balancing factor is that if you're smart and/or lucky enough to use it at a time and place where it won't be, it's significantly more efficient than the competition.

I'm not going to do a similar analysis for the others, but 20 energy and 12s recharge is pretty cheap for what Icerazor dishes out, and compared to most revenant heals, Breakrazor only takes a couple of seconds to break even and after that it's all profit up to a potential 10s duration. And the elite is maintained anyway, so if anything happens to it, you cancel and recast it.

Just because something has a downside doesn't mean it's garbage if what you get in return is worth it. And in the case of Kalla's summons, the effect is strong enough that it IS worth it. That's what you're failing to take into account.

Mind you, on the other side of the ledger, that doesn't mean that people should have to deal with a similar downside with any build they play.

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I give them ideas.

That's the difference. 

 

Have a nice day.

And in this case, literally everyone else who's posted in this thread has said some variant of "bad idea, do not want".

Nobody's saying that you shouldn't give ideas, but like I said earlier, people have the right to express opinions on those ideas, so that ArenaNet can look at the thread and say "okay, out of a sample size of (nine by my count?), there is one person who likes this idea and eight who don't, so maybe this won't be all that popular and we should focus our efforts elsewhere."

[SoulGuardian.6203]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And in this case, literally everyone else who's posted in this thread has said some variant of "bad idea, do not want".

Nobody's saying that you shouldn't give ideas, but like I said earlier, people have the right to express opinions on those ideas, so that ArenaNet can look at the thread and say "okay, out of a sample size of (nine by my count?), there is one person who likes this idea and eight who don't, so maybe this won't be all that popular and we should focus our efforts elsewhere."

I've seen similar situations in the past where the majority, or all replies were negative towards someone else's idea.

Which, the most recent cases were with EoD fishing, Virtuoso, etc...

ANet went ahead and still did it anyways.

So your point is null and void.

 

I am glad that ANet appreciates guts and the courage of an individual to stand by their idea/concept, even if all the others throw everything at them but the kitchen sink.

 

Since I joined these forums, I've been called clown, loser, and all sorts of names; even been told that I need therapy for saying how much I like this game.

 

That's the extent people go to to try ridicule and humiliate someone for giving ANet ideas. 

 

Do you think, for a minute, that ANet can't see through it?

These are highly intelligent people. 

I'm glad they see it that way. 

Not all of mine or other people's ideas have been integrated into the game though.

I've seen some pretty cool ones from other people too.

These forums are made so everyone can express their oppinions.

But at the end of the day, it's ANets game.

They decide what they take into consideration and what not.

I'm glad they do.

I really like Virtuoso and fishing.

Virtuoso was ruthlessly murdered before it was even released.

But ANet brought it to life... and yet, now it's one of the most played Elite Specs.

How's that for hypocrisy? 

It's the typical saying:

"You spit where you eat" Situation here.

How many of those who bashed virtuoso so much are playing as one now!? 

Do a little research and see for yourself.

 

Finally, I try to reach out to them.

If they include my idea, then awesome. 

If not, it's fine all the same.

 

I don't come in here try to extort ANet saying "If they do this, or if they don't do that; I'll stop playing... or otherwise. "

 

It's a game that I like playing very much, but isn't my way of life.

If you're clever enough, you know what I'm talking about.

 

The thing is that many come in here with so much drama, as if the game is real life.

People ought to know the difference. 

I spend money on the game too.

But I don't have a list of complaints.

I appreciate all the hard work and dedication from the devs. Even if I don't like every aspect of the game.

 

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to say this.

I've been meaning to post this for a while.

I'll continue to contribute to ANet the best way I can. Whether you agree or not.

You're free and entitled to your oppinion but it doesn't matter to me, really, does it?

It's the Devs I'm trying to reach out to.

I want to see this game still going for as long as possible, and still be online for generations to come.

Edited June 19, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's a risk/reward balance.

And it's a garbage approach because of the reason I gave.  The game is not designed around MAYBE your skills work some of the time. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

22 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Wonder why do you even play GW.

But as I mentioned, I don't like the charr only army of static holograms.

 

I dont. And anyone who actually care about game balance should stop playing until they clear up the "mess" at office with "designers" i and management responsible for it instead of switching from one class to another in endless cycle.

And what you like or not is irrevelant. Option is there. For the people who want "army" and the people who want "ritualist". Not enjoying how it looks? Well tough luck. Feel free to suggest anet selling skill skins lol. At current moment nothing stops you from rolling necromancer and equip 5 minions but in either case if u ask me pet classes is the worst thing that were made in games. I have some design on said pet subject how to get it right to have best of both but thats well.. for my own game so i wont be saying what exactly it is here.