ArenaNet have broken my Thief/Deadeye

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

10 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

 

That's an awfully long list of logical fallacies.

You're going to need to be specific about what you think is actually factually inaccurate.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

19 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

 

Farming should be bottom of the barrel when it comes to balancing. Simply because it does not matter at all and doesn't interact with other players in any way. In PvP balance matters to make fights with other players balanced and in PvE it matters to make your class / spec a competitive choice.

If you gather herbs or ores 1 seconds faster or not is completely irrelevant. In any case. 

Yeah., ArenaNet's decision to break the build was indeed very short-sighted.  The time it takes is only irrelevant to those who aren't reliant on doing it.  It comes across as people who are utilising something having more ownership of the thing than those who are affected.

There was zero need to break the build in PvE, and the only fix, if indeed it was actually needed, to support the haters of permastealth, was to eliminate the extended duration of stealthing from Meld With Shadows when in PvP and WvW.  That would have been sufficient to kowtow to the haters, whilst minimising the impacts of the key ability of a class whose fundamental strength lies in being able to stealth.  The change implemented is like saying to a blacksmith, "Oh, yeah, you can still be a blacksmith, you aren't allowed to use a furnace, but you will be able to hit things with your hammer faster."  Sounds ridiculous?  Yes, that's what the change is.

[Nyel.1843]

7 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Yeah., ArenaNet's decision to break the build was indeed very short-sighted.  The time it takes is only irrelevant to those who aren't reliant on doing it.  It comes across as people who are utilising something having more ownership of the thing than those who are affected.

There was zero need to break the build in PvE, and the only fix, if indeed it was actually needed, to support the haters of permastealth, was to eliminate the extended duration of stealthing from Meld With Shadows when in PvP and WvW.  That would have been sufficient to kowtow to the haters, whilst minimising the impacts of the key ability of a class whose fundamental strength lies in being able to stealth.  The change implemented is like saying to a blacksmith, "Oh, yeah, you can still be a blacksmith, you aren't allowed to use a furnace, but you will be able to hit things with your hammer faster."  Sounds ridiculous?  Yes, that's what the change is.

 

Your comparison doesn't work as you still can use Stealth. You just can't use it as long as you've been used to it. The only thing relevant to your playstyle was the duration. 

I dislike that the removed Stealth from Steal and Heal because that's an integral part of combat. But your playstyle aka farming has no impact on the game at all, there's no balance required for farming as you want to avoid combat as much as possible. Unless they want to introduce a third way of balancing things (PvE - PvP/WvW - Farming), farming will always come last because overall it has the least impact and relevance in any competitive game mode. 

[Crab Fear.8623]

23 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

The build may have enabled certain play styles previously, but was not materially broken, and the fix did not need to be so drastic.  The identified issue was in PvP and WvW where a player could, if they wished, avoid combat by continually stealthing.  As has been pointed out, and not addressed, whilst a player is in stealth they're not contributing towards claiming objectives and as soon as they do they come out of stealth (and get squished, quickly).  The only thing which was needed was the removal of the additional stealth during in PvP and WvW, to achieve the aim of appeasing the players who apparently hated that other players could enjoy playing to the strength of the Thief class.  Anyone who thinks they had a right to see that ability and choice removed from players is part of the problem; claiming a right to have other player's enjoyment degraded.

If you want to permanently avoid combat, just stay in cities.

I didn't see any patch note that said the patch was competitive specific regarding these changes.

They changed how things work, it affects everyone, and just chopping off stealth in pvp would leave nothing...

The majority usually wins when it comes to change.

Anet had many times, taken away "my fun".

I adapted.

You will too.

 

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

3 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

 

Your comparison doesn't work as you still can use Stealth. You just can't use it as long as you've been used to it. The only thing relevant to your playstyle was the duration. 

I dislike that the removed Stealth from Steal and Heal because that's an integral part of combat. But your playstyle aka farming has no impact on the game at all, there's no balance required for farming as you want to avoid combat as much as possible. Unless they want to introduce a third way of balancing things (PvE - PvP/WvW - Farming), farming will always come last because overall it has the least impact and relevance in any competitive game mode. 

With the stealth from dodge reduced to just one second in PvP and WvW, that's only technically usable.  Practically it doesn't work.  Having just checked, Kneel take 0.5s, and Death's Judgement takes another 0.5s. To be able to dodge, Kneel and use Death's Judgement within the 1s duration of stealth you gain is impossible (and that's assuming you already have the desired target selected).  If you're already kneeling you are a sitting duck for all the tanks.

Death's Judgement has the single highest damage effect of the Thief's\Deadeye's attacks.  By reducing the stealth duration in WvW and PvP to just one second ArenaNet haven't just broken the build for PvE, they've eliminated the core attack (which doesn't need Initiative to use).

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

5 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

If you want to permanently avoid combat, just stay in cities.

You already knew that to be impractical and sarcastic when you wrote it, so that comes across as if you're trying to troll.

Perhaps ArenaNet didn't receive sufficient 'feedback' on previous changes to realise the changes they implemented were disliked?  Or maybe ArenaNet simply don't care.  Either way, that's no justification for not speaking up.  If folks don't speak up, ArenaNet will go about their business with their heads in the sand, or held high thinking they're the ultimate game designers as they haven't broken the enjoyment for any of their players .  At least if folks speak up, they can't say "No-one complained when we ...".

[Crab Fear.8623]

8 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

You already knew that to be impractical and sarcastic when you wrote it, so that comes across as if you're trying to troll.

Perhaps ArenaNet didn't receive sufficient 'feedback' on previous changes to realise the changes they implemented were disliked?  Or maybe ArenaNet simply don't care.  Either way, that's no justification for not speaking up.  If folks don't speak up, ArenaNet will go about their business with their heads in the sand, or held high thinking they're the ultimate game designers as they haven't broken the enjoyment for any of their players .  At least if folks speak up, they can't say "No-one complained when we ...".

I'm on the opposite of you.

I like the changes.

There are plenty of opportunities to stealth.

I prefer the blind on Steal, and weakening foes with stealth attacks.

Stealth on Heal like skills such as withdraw, which also traited stealth to blind....not fun for 1000s of players to face.

Perma stealth has been campaigned against for years and years.

Anet has lots of feedback that made the changes at least the right direction.

Even if competitive specific, these changes favor more players than specifically perma stealth material farmers.

Now, with the new trait features, other builds can be ran as one traitline isn't the super dominant choice.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

6 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

I'm on the opposite of you.

I like the changes.

Fine, everyone is allowed their opinion.
None of that excuses ArenaNet's blanket 'solution'. 

There may well have been a lot of vocal haters, but that doesn't necessarily meant that a) the haters were right, or b) that ArenaNet's blanket change is right, either.

There's nothing wrong with giving people choices.  Instead of the blanket change they could have made it possible for players who like the changes to use a build, in PvP/WvW which empowers them that way, whilst leaving PvE alone.  They failed.

ArenaNet could have done this better.

[Nyel.1843]

1 hour ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

With the stealth from dodge reduced to just one second in PvP and WvW, that's only technically usable.  Practically it doesn't work.  Having just checked, Kneel take 0.5s, and Death's Judgement takes another 0.5s. To be able to dodge, Kneel and use Death's Judgement within the 1s duration of stealth you gain is impossible (and that's assuming you already have the desired target selected).  If you're already kneeling you are a sitting duck for all the tanks.

Death's Judgement has the single highest damage effect of the Thief's\Deadeye's attacks.  By reducing the stealth duration in WvW and PvP to just one second ArenaNet haven't just broken the build for PvE, they've eliminated the core attack (which doesn't need Initiative to use).

 

I've read several posts and opinions now that Deadeye in fact is stronger and more potent after the Stealth changes than it was before. I can see issues for core melee Thieves, but for Deadeyes? Don't see it.

And why are you branding all the people as "haters" who agree with the change or can see where it came from? I think playing around with stealth is way cooler than camping in stealth. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Nyel.1843

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

39 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

 

I've read several posts and opinions now that Deadeye in fact is stronger and more potent after the Stealth changes than it was before. I can see issues for core melee Thieves, but for Deadeyes? Don't see it.

And why are you branding all the people as "haters" who agree with the change or can see where it came from? I think playing around with stealth is way cooler than camping in stealth. 

You're trying to say I said something which I didn't say.  Some people were vocal about hating permastealth, the adjective therefore fits that case.  The use-case is very much limited to PvP/WvW-heavy players hating that a Thief utilising the very fundamental principles of being a thief (i.e. being stealthy) could achieve stealth for extended durations (whilst ignoring the downsides of being stealthy for extended durations).  Sorry, but if someone dislikes a character being played to its strengths that's on them.  Either join them or shut up.  Don't change the rules to degrade the character's ability.

 

Permastealth does not negatively affect any other player in PvE, but it does bring significant usability to the player, the hate therefore comes from players heavily invested in PvP and WvW, and who also disliked the ability to inflict damage on said Thieves\Deadeyes.   Simply negating the effectiveness of the character's presence by being stronger and a harder hitter wasn't enough for those people.  It wasn't cries from the Thief players of 'this profession isn't strong enough, take away one of our key strengths and give us something different', it was cries from the others of 'get rid of permastealth', which cause ArenaNet to break the build.

 

Okay, so some people like the changes, that will be in the PvP and WvW environments.  There are no tremendous benefits for the changes in PvE, but there are significant downsides, all because ArenaNet were incompetent in designing and deploying the change in response to the permastealth haters continued efforts to see its demise.

 

Regardless of any benefits, reducing dodge stealth to 1s in WvW and PvP makes Death's Judgement (the single most powerful non-initiative spending attack) either unusable or too risky to attempt.  For a character that doesn't hit as hard as others.  How does effectively removing that ability make any sense whatsoever?  (And that's to not even consider that ArenaNet got the mechanics of that the wrong way around anyway: if you're sniping you don't reveal your position first, then fire; you fire which reveals your position.)  The changes may well bring some other aspects to the Profession, but they also put unnecessary and poorly thought through limitations in place, across all three environments.  I could just about stomach it if they'd simply eliminated/nerfed the stealth duration bonus from Meld With Shadows in WvW and PvP, but this?  Nope, it's so broken as to be demonstrable design incompetence.  That I, without anywhere near the experience the GW2 designers should have, can come up with a reasonable solution says more about ArenaNet's attitude than it does about my dislike of demonstrable incompetence.

 

There would not have been anything wrong with giving players a choice of how to build their character.  Players could experiment with the different builds and choose the one they like most.  Importantly, this places the choice in the hands of the player, rather than forcing something which is okay for some, and broken for others, onto everyone. Some folks, happy with the new abilities would love it, good for them.  Others might not like it, and they'd be able to choose to remain with what they are familiar with.  Others might switch between the two options, depending on the environment, whether they were taking part in a PvE story, or simply roaming the PvE world (all of which should be equally respected play choices).  Flexibility and choice is what should have happened. 

[Svarty.8019]

3 hours ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

You're going to need to be specific about what you think is actually factually inaccurate.

Nah I can just peace out. Cya.

[Mincsk.6028]

I dropped all this drama and started wvwing on engi lol. Forget it, thief doesn't even compete they aren't even in the same game.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

17 hours ago, Mincsk.6028 said:

I dropped all this drama and started wvwing on engi lol. Forget it, thief doesn't even compete they aren't even in the same game.

It's a sad state of affairs when the game developers force such things on players.  All the Professions are supposed to ultimately be equally playable, in all environments.  Sure, I've got five level 80 characters, but the Thief was my first, and consequently I am somewhat attached to it.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I still do my gathering and dailies on my thief.  Nothing changed for me, because I never ran SA to begin with.  Deadeye with Silent Scope has been enough for me to skip most enemies.  

[Ian.8340]

4 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I still do my gathering and dailies on my thief.  Nothing changed for me, because I never ran SA to begin with.  Deadeye with Silent Scope has been enough for me to skip most enemies.  

The stealth is too short in WvW, which is where the problem is. 

[Nyel.1843]

5 hours ago, Ian.8340 said:

The stealth is too short in WvW, which is where the problem is. 

WvW is PvP and therefore the change in regards to farming / gathering should be seen under that circumstance. 

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

7 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I still do my gathering and dailies on my thief.  Nothing changed for me, because I never ran SA to begin with.  Deadeye with Silent Scope has been enough for me to skip most enemies.  

I, too, am still using my Deadeye for this, but it's taking long as I get interrupted more frequently.  It's a shame we can't send an invoice to ArenaNet for the additional time.  Charge them say, £50/hour or part thereof?  They'd probably ignore the invoices and someone might say that's daylight robbery, but what do expect from Thief!? 🤣

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

7 hours ago, Ian.8340 said:

The stealth is too short in WvW, which is where the problem is. 

Indeed.  The argument being given as to why the changes came about was to prevent permastealth in WvW/PvP.  Although those arguments are weak and ignore the fundamental principles of a Thief character, which is to be stealthy!

 

ArenaNet demonstrating a lack of wisdom or fit of incompetence, elected to massively break the ability, rather than simply curtail it slightly.  All that was needed to prevent permastealthing was to eliminate the additional boost to stealth from Meld With Shadows in WvW/PvP.  That would have been sufficient to make it sufficiently more dangerous for Thief players to use the tactics which were apparently hated so much that it created so much noise ArenaNet felt it necessary to kowtow and cancel the capability.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

2 hours ago, Nyel.1843 said:

WvW is PvP and therefore the change in regards to farming / gathering should be seen under that circumstance. 

Why is harvesting nodes in WvW considered to be so inappropriate?  ArenaNet didn't put nodes into WvW simply for the fun of it, they're there to be harvested.  I have not seen any arguments about needing to curtail a Thief's ability to harvest in WvW, but lots of hate towards permastealth in both WvW and PvP.

Why is permastealthing actually such a bad thing anyway?  The argument has been given that it means a Thief can camp in an objective to then take it easily (abeit with the help of at least one more Thief or by portalling in allies from outside).  The argument ignores that firstly the Thief has to get inside said objective (I know of no way this can be achieved without first having subjected the objective to sufficient siege as to breach the boundary), and then has to stay for ten minutes^, doing nothing productive other than staying out of the way of the occupiers when it's in the hand of an enemy faction.

^This presumes the initial breach resulted in a change of ownership (let's face it, if you've been able to breach you're probably going to take the objective), and the two five-minute periods needed for it to be taken by another faction, and then be able to be retaken.  That also relies on a challenger faction actually coming over immediately to take the objective as soon as it's possible.  The Thief could be waiting ages for the objective to be taken from their faction.  The probability of them having to wait longer than ten minutes is a non-zero value, i.e. more often than not, someone would be waiting longer than ten minutes.  During this phase, they've first got to avoid being killed by the invaders, stay stealthed long enough for the objective to be turned, and then avoid the default occupiers and any others who come to harvest the nodes.  Are the rewards really that high for this course of action?

Whilst stealthed a character doesn't contribute to claiming objectives, and can't attack and stay stealthed; they will reveal themselves at various points.  A character intent on being 'permanently' stealthed removes themselves from being a threat; they literally pose zero threat to anyone else whilst they're stealthing.  No serious, logical and rational argument has been put forward as to why there is so much hate towards the ability.

[Nyel.1843]

3 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Why is harvesting nodes in WvW considered to be so inappropriate?  ArenaNet didn't put nodes into WvW simply for the fun of it, they're there to be harvested.  I have not seen any arguments about needing to curtail a Thief's ability to harvest in WvW, but lots of hate towards permastealth in both WvW and PvP.

 

You seem to miss the problem. Harvesting nodes in WvW is completely fine. But WvW has a different ruleset than PvE and therefore suffers from changes made to player versus player encounters. 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@OrangeHedgehog.6310

Not sure if you're aware of this from reading this post, but you don't need to kneel to use death's judgement. It's the sneak attack, so it'll go off whether you are kneeling or stood.

 

As for landing a death's judgement with the 1s stealth, a sigil of agility along with shadowstep can make it easier: you dodge at long range, swap to rifle then use shadowstep to reposition closer to the enemy mid dodge so their timing is off, dodge ends which gives you stealth but the swap also gave you 1s quickness which is enough to cut the cast time of death's judgement. You can also just use death's judgement at melee range then port to long range with shadowstep, the projectile speed is unchanged by quickness so that can mess up the timing enough to get a hit too. You don't have to throw off someone's timing all that much to make them fluff a dodge, especially if they have gotten used to the timing from previous shots. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[Juan.6124]

You might enjoy Animal Crossing.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/7/2022 at 1:23 PM, Nyel.1843 said:

 

You seem to miss the problem. Harvesting nodes in WvW is completely fine. But WvW has a different ruleset than PvE and therefore suffers from changes made to player versus player encounters. 

Oh, I certainly understand WvW has a different ruleset, and I knew that before.  What is apparent from ArenaNet's sledgehammer approach to fixing permastealth is that they either didn't fully understand the impacts, or simply did not care to do the minimum, instead opting for something so radical it broke the build.  If the first, they've demonstrated professional incompetence, if the second, well, not caring about your customers isn't really a good outlook in the long run.

The whole, "Oh, but you now get superspeed" argument demonstrates a failure to consider that superspeed is pointless when it comes to standing still, as is the case when the character is harvesting.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:21 AM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@OrangeHedgehog.6310

Not sure if you're aware of this from reading this post, but you don't need to kneel to use death's judgement. It's the sneak attack, so it'll go off whether you are kneeling or stood.

 

As for landing a death's judgement with the 1s stealth, a sigil of agility along with shadowstep can make it easier: you dodge at long range, swap to rifle then use shadowstep to reposition closer to the enemy mid dodge so their timing is off, dodge ends which gives you stealth but the swap also gave you 1s quickness which is enough to cut the cast time of death's judgement. You can also just use death's judgement at melee range then port to long range with shadowstep, the projectile speed is unchanged by quickness so that can mess up the timing enough to get a hit too. You don't have to throw off someone's timing all that much to make them fluff a dodge, especially if they have gotten used to the timing from previous shots. 

Indeed, not.  I saw the word Kneel in Deadly Aim, and when I've done Death's Judgement, the character, if not already, Kneels whilst taking the shot, so that's where the confusion came in.

To get good enough to achieve what you've suggested is likely to unrealistic for some players, myself included, however.  Even taking the 0.5s away from not needing to dodge, that only gives you 0.5s more time, changing the chances of using the ability from impossible to very, very, difficult.  Easier, yes, does it make Thief\Deadeye equally as dangerous as the hard hitters?  Not even close.  Thief is, quite rightly, squishy.  A thief's defence lies in not being hit in the first place.  There are enough AoE attacks and the such like which can nullify a Thief's movement abilities to make them vulnerable enough to see them dropped within a second or two.  Making it more likely that Thief will be hit doesn't balance things out one jot.

Sure, hard hitters may not necessarily kill a Thief in a one to one every time.  If they don't it's likely significantly more probable that it's because the Thief has left the combat (aka retreated), rather than because the Thief actually won the combat.  Whether the hard hitter killed the Thief, or forced the Thief to flee, that's a win for the hard hitter.  Forcing a Thief to flee is, apparently, not enough for players who hate permastealth though.   The chances of a Thief forcing a hard hitter to flee?  Yeah, an absurd idea.  So, ArenaNet made it more likely a hard hitter will be able to take out a Thief and making it more likely Thieves are less able to escape.  The rationale being, to kowtow to players of hard hitters wanting to get their adrenaline fix from beating up a squishy character, because they don't get the same joy from simply forcing the Thief to flee?

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

1 hour ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Indeed, not.  I saw the word Kneel in Deadly Aim, and when I've done Death's Judgement, the character, if not already, Kneels whilst taking the shot, so that's where the confusion came in.

To get good enough to achieve what you've suggested is likely to unrealistic for some players, myself included, however.  Even taking the 0.5s away from not needing to dodge, that only gives you 0.5s more time, changing the chances of using the ability from impossible to very, very, difficult.  Easier, yes, does it make Thief\Deadeye equally as dangerous as the hard hitters?  Not even close.  Thief is, quite rightly, squishy.  A thief's defence lies in not being hit in the first place.  There are enough AoE attacks and the such like which can nullify a Thief's movement abilities to make them vulnerable enough to see them dropped within a second or two.  Making it more likely that Thief will be hit doesn't balance things out one jot.

Sure, hard hitters may not necessarily kill a Thief in a one to one every time.  If they don't it's likely significantly more probable that it's because the Thief has left the combat (aka retreated), rather than because the Thief actually won the combat.  Whether the hard hitter killed the Thief, or forced the Thief to flee, that's a win for the hard hitter.  Forcing a Thief to flee is, apparently, not enough for players who hate permastealth though.   The chances of a Thief forcing a hard hitter to flee?  Yeah, an absurd idea.  So, ArenaNet made it more likely a hard hitter will be able to take out a Thief and making it more likely Thieves are less able to escape.  The rationale being, to kowtow to players of hard hitters wanting to get their adrenaline fix from beating up a squishy character, because they don't get the same joy from simply forcing the Thief to flee?

The thing that you're not getting is that when playing thief you need to outplay the other player at the same time as countering their build, doing just one thing on it's own usually isn't enough to win the fight. For example, a burst oriented thief won't deal as much damage in as short a time from as much range as a glass sic 'em longbow ranger no matter how you build, and you won't be anywhere near as tanky while doing it either. You can't win a DPS race if you just try to face tank and kill him before he kills you. To deal with this guy, I'd dodge the initial rapid fire sic 'em combo using withdraw, roll for initiative or regular dodges, then I'd set up sniper's cover (kneeling rifle 4) to protect me from his arrows while using rifle 2 with shadowsteps to set up death's judgements as I described in my earlier post. I want the ranger to go for the melee spike with greatsword, when he does I'd kite the greatsword skills with death's retreat (standing rifle 4) and dodges while staying just out of melee range. Once that has all happened most rangers will swap to bow then immediately go for the knockback to create distance for a rapid fire to finish you off, if I dodge the knockback I'll have forced a situation where he's got no mobility, can't swap to melee, and is in melee range. That's my cue to finish him off with my melee set. 

 

TLDR: remember that you're not trying to match the other guy in a straight up fight, because usually you can't. That's fighting on his terms, which is dumb. You're countering his damage while forcing the guy behind the keyboard to fight on your terms.