At what point is it elitism vs efficiency?

[mythical.6315]

54 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

I have actually now that i think of it, its mostly.in pug raids, they ask for a role i fulfilled, someone else couldnt swap so i took 1 for the team and rerolled to a class i dislike, though had geared, and ended up falling short. In the end i got the game to play roles, builds and classes i like, not to bend to someone elses expectations for happiness. 

In the example you gave, you chose to change to a class you didn’t like. You cannot blame them for that. 

56 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

If i can do a role on 1 class just as efficiently as another id prefer that or just let em know im out. That last group years ago in pug Dhuum got frustrating because i was outta the normal class. I dont like alting because i got the game for enjoyment.  Instead of bending to other i want to break expectations and meme things up best way possible within reason. If it gets the job done or is cheesy composition and people.can have a laugh, ill do it. Right now, since most core nonboon buffs are being reworked its a prime opportunity to push the limits.

Many players have alts as they find them enjoyable. You also will need to have alts as one class usually will not get you through every raid.  This could be due to needing to do direct damage or conditions or to fulfill specific roles unique to a particular raid. 
 

I will point out that most groups likely do not want to “meme things” and would prefer to get their clears.  If you want to to do those type of runs, it needs to be communicated beforehand but you’ll unlikely be doing this in pug groups. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

13 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

In the example you gave, you chose to change to a class you didn’t like. You cannot blame them for that. 

Many players have alts as they find them enjoyable. You also will need to have alts as one class usually will not get you through every raid.  This could be due to needing to do direct damage or conditions or to fulfill specific roles unique to a particular raid. 
 

I will point out that most groups likely do not want to “meme things” and would prefer to get their clears.  If you want to to do those type of runs, it needs to be communicated beforehand but you’ll unlikely be doing this in pug groups. 

Yeah it was on me but they asked me to change despute being uncomfortable with it and inexperienced. The meme runs have been successful thus far in strikes all thief...even got world firsts this way and method, just wanna push boundaries more to see the limits. Obviously if they want their clears, do a balanced comp...otherwise its to push the envelope and have a laugh to see whats possible

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

On the other hand, people on this forum often complain about "bad elititsts" while never participating in raids in the first place, so they either blindly repeat what other people say or just... make their stories up. Latest one I've seen: someone got kicked for the way they reskinned their headgear 🙄 (to make it even better, it's a person that says he's new to raids and only plays in training squads).

No worries, majority of people do not think that nor they require it. In fact, for the most part it's one of those things repeated by people that are scared of joining any squad in the first place, since while some people can aim at the top tier dps, most/all of them are either in their own static groups or make it completely obvious in the squad description.

Basically the easiest -but not foolproof, sure- way to avoid toxicity is being upfront with your expectations. Specify what you're looking for in the squad's lfg description or join the squads that match your goals and most of the time everyone's happy.

Right on! Thanks!

[mythical.6315]

5 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Yeah it was on me but they asked me to change despute being uncomfortable with it and inexperienced. The meme runs have been successful thus far in strikes all thief...even got world firsts this way and method, just wanna push boundaries more to see the limits. Obviously if they want their clears, do a balanced comp...otherwise its to push the envelope and have a laugh to see whats possible

How’d they know to request you to change to a different class if you didn’t tell them about it in the first place?  If you want to play a specific class/role for that fight, and you joined to play that, don’t mention anything else that you’re able to play unless you don’t mind playing them.

People are not mind readers so they’re not going to know that you don’t want to play a specific class/role when you mention it freely that you’re able to play it. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Artemis.8034]

4 hours ago, Gajex.2386 said:

You never were to the GW2 subreddit. Best way to get likes there is to kitten on casuals, even if you have to make a story up 🤭

And in some places the best way to get likes is to rail on toxic raiding elitists, it goes both ways and trolls that start these kinds of threads are highly aware of the audience makeup they are pandering to.

[Gajex.2386]

4 hours ago, Artemis.8034 said:

And in some places the best way to get likes is to rail on toxic raiding elitists, it goes both ways and trolls that start these kinds of threads are highly aware of the audience makeup they are pandering to.

In the end they are both problematic. But you can always find enough people to create a circle jerk. Just gotta know where to look, ha. late evening LA map chat

Edited July 5, 2022 by Gajex.2386
Grammar is an art I've yet to master.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

6 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

How’d they know to request you to change to a different class if you didn’t tell them about it in the first place?  If you want to play a specific class/role for that fight, and you joined to play that, don’t mention anything else that you’re able to play unless you don’t mind playing them.

People are not mind readers so they’re not going to know that you don’t want to play a specific class/role when you mention it freely that you’re able to play it. 

Api key requirement in a friends discord 😕

[Dante.1508]

On 7/5/2022 at 1:08 AM, mythical.6315 said:

And what do you call it when you try to dictate how others play and criticize those who don’t play like you?

I don't dictate how others play i only want a fun game in all aspects.

On 7/4/2022 at 3:54 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Okay.

So at what point does expecting others to accept a diverging class/build/player from what the group is looking for entitlement?

Is it elitism from the group and entitlement from the individual who expects to get taken along both at the same time?

What was first, the group being elitist for setting up what they are looking for, or the player who expects to get taken along being entitled?

No point its a game, you play your way, they play their way.. have some respect and maybe help people not berate how they play.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Dante.1508

[mythical.6315]

43 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Api key requirement in a friends discord 😕

Wow. I didn’t think people would go that far.  Feels a bit invasive. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by mythical.6315

[mythical.6315]

30 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

I don't dictate how others play i only want a fun game in all aspects.

If you don’t then you really should take a second look at your posts. 

[Dante.1508]

4 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

If you don’t then you really should take a second look at your posts. 

Its a game fun should be the primary concern for Anet and NCsoft.. Not grind and efficiency.. Thats what gaming is about, somewhere along the line when they became mainstream companies and "gamerz" forgot that important detail..

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

Its a game fun should be the primary concern for Anet and NCsoft.. Not grind and efficiency.. Thats what gaming is about, somewhere along the line when they became mainstream companies and "gamerz" forgot that important detail..

I agree. Although I have a tendency to play efficiently where possible in games like this, I didn't always play games that way and I can still remember vaguely when it crossed over. How I went from being someone who took games in a chill-pacing kind of way to being someone who was on hyper mode. And it had everything to do with how games were paced. A game like the very original SWG, you didn't have mounts and distances were looong, so you could spend 20 minutes with a party just getting to a special POI to kill some special mobs. I don't remember being annoyed at how long it took, I was just enthralled by the whole environment. It was paced more like an adventure. Games like this are paced more like a theme park: find the ride you like at the right time, get in, get out, go to the next ride. Repeat before your time runs out and you gotta go home.

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

Its a game fun should be the primary concern for Anet and NCsoft.. Not grind and efficiency.. Thats what gaming is about, somewhere along the line when they became mainstream companies and "gamerz" forgot that important detail..

There are people that enjoy grinding and efficiency.  Why do you assume that only how you want to play the game is the correct way?  

[Labjax.2465]

2 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

There are people that enjoy grinding and efficiency.  Why do you assume that only how you want to play the game is the correct way?  

Efficiency yes, I'm gonna have to press X to doubt on some people enjoying grinding. It's a term with a very negative connotation for a reason. Now if you are trying to say some people enjoy things taking a long time to do, that's one thing, but grinding? Really?

[mythical.6315]

3 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Efficiency yes, I'm gonna have to press X to doubt on some people enjoying grinding. It's a term with a very negative connotation for a reason. Now if you are trying to say some people enjoy things taking a long time to do, that's one thing, but grinding? Really?

As I had said to the other poster, just because you do not enjoy it, does not mean that others do not. 

[Zohane.7208]

3 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Efficiency yes, I'm gonna have to press X to doubt on some people enjoying grinding. It's a term with a very negative connotation for a reason. Now if you are trying to say some people enjoy things taking a long time to do, that's one thing, but grinding? Really?

For me, "grinding" is the term used for something, usually repetitive, that you don't like doing. When you enjoy it, it's "farming".

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Its a game fun should be the primary concern for Anet and NCsoft.. Not grind and efficiency.. Thats what gaming is about, somewhere along the line when they became mainstream companies and "gamerz" forgot that important detail..

How is this not you dictating how the game should be played? 🤷‍♂️ 

Players other than yourself enjoy performing well in groups of other players that perform well.  Different people enjoy the game in different ways.

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Zohane.7208 said:

For me, "grinding" is the term used for something, usually repetitive, that you don't like doing. When you enjoy it, it's "farming".

That makes more sense. I still tend to see farming used more to describe something that is boring, but ideal for efficiency, but it makes more sense to me than saying grinding is enjoyable for some.

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Its a game fun should be the primary concern for Anet and NCsoft.. Not grind and efficiency..

If you don't want to do something then just don't. What's the issue here for you, again? That other players do it? Read the squads desciption to play in groups that match your expectations, it really is rather simple.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Bizgurk.5639]

On 7/3/2022 at 8:32 PM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team? To me arc dps can be both a benefit and a curse. You can hone your skills and find better rotations to increase your dps, but then again you can be called out for not contributing enough which makes the game a chore

The first premade I joined had a quite elitist behavior on certain bosses like CA. Every time a sword and a shield merged our lead ordered us to /gg, even if the Warrior was already destroyed and no one died.

 

My second premade did something similar at Deimos. Whenever we failed to destroy all pillars at the same time we should /gg

 

Stuff like "either it's a clean kill or it won't be a kill at all" is elitism in my opinion and far away from efficient in terms of bosskills per time spent.

[Dante.1508]

On 7/6/2022 at 3:41 PM, mythical.6315 said:

There are people that enjoy grinding and efficiency.  Why do you assume that only how you want to play the game is the correct way?  

My point exactly "GaMeRz"

21 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

How is this not you dictating how the game should be played? 🤷‍♂️ 

Players other than yourself enjoy performing well in groups of other players that perform well.  Different people enjoy the game in different ways.

Games are designed for fun.. hence the terms game and entertainment. Grinding is the exact opposite of both.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Nash.2681]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

My point exactly "GaMeRz"

Games are designed for fun.. hence the terms game and entertainment. Grinding is the exact opposite of both.

To you. Others don't mind grinding, others may even like it. 🤷‍♂️ I strongly suggest not to generalize.

[Labjax.2465]

21 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

To you. Others don't mind grinding, others may even like it. 🤷‍♂️ I strongly suggest not to generalize.

I strongly suggest if people are going to say not to generalize they pick a better hill to die on than saying that some people like to do one of the most negative-connotation things in video game discourse across every game (grinding). There is so much more interesting to talk about, like how different games are paced and what their styles of engagement are. For example, a looter shooter vs. an RPG vs. an RTS vs. a turn-based strategy game. All things some find fun, some don't, and all different styles of game and gameplay that reward you more for different skills. For example, RPGs often involve more math, FPS often involve more kinesthetic reflex skill. Which incidentally is why a pro player at one type of game may go to another type of game and get absolutely wrecked.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

My point exactly "GaMeRz"

Games are designed for fun.. hence the terms game and entertainment. Grinding is the exact opposite of both.

An artful dodge, sir, but you failed to answer the question:  How is this not you dictating how the game should be played?

Following your logic, what you're saying here is that you get to define what is a "grind" vs. what is "fun".  As it pertains to the discussion at hand, your specific claim is that efficiency = grind = not fun.  Therefore other players shouldn't care so much about performance, comps, the meta, etc.

So, since you get to tell us how we should all be having fun, can you tell me if it's okay, for example, if I wanted to run fractals with a group of experienced players who perform well and even ask for specific classes to join my group?  Would that be in violation of Dante's Rulebook of Fun?

[Nash.2681]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I strongly suggest if people are going to say not to generalize they pick a better hill to die on than saying that some people like to do one of the most negative-connotation things in video game discourse across every game (grinding). There is so much more interesting to talk about, like how different games are paced and what their styles of engagement are. For example, a looter shooter vs. an RPG vs. an RTS vs. a turn-based strategy game. All things some find fun, some don't, and all different styles of game and gameplay that reward you more for different skills. For example, RPGs often involve more math, FPS often involve more kinesthetic reflex skill. Which incidentally is why a pro player at one type of game may go to another type of game and get absolutely wrecked.

I don't see grinding as "one of the most negative-connotation things in video game discourse across every game" per se. To me there's also 0 difference between grinding and farming, they're 100% synonyms.

I remember the good old times of Diablo2, the game's very essence was to grind/farm out xp and items. Do the same stuff over and over again. Yet millions of people had fun with it.