Community Discussion: Master Post of Profession Identities and Defined Specialization Roles for the Future

[Aurawind.8429]

The goal of this post is to be a master discussion about the general scope of the Classes/Elite Spec Roles and their identity while bringing some sort of balance to the game.
It's common knowledge that GW is not in the most popular state, and I was hoping that this could bring some creative discussion as to how certain classes can be brought up in line with the current meta and constructive ways to tone down over performing classes.
I've played this game pretty consistently since closed beta weekend 1. And by far this balance patch has hit the most controversial boundaries. And as a consistent player, I wouldn't mind shaking up what has been meta or standard for years now. Things need to get changed around for the over all better health for the game.

Disclaimer: There may be many "Hot-Takes" to come, so here's to hoping for constructive discussions.

One thing I would like to mention before getting in to how classes could be changed around. 
I am not in agreeance with giving "vital" boons like Quickness and Alacrity to Core Specs. I believe it's more reasonable to go in to an Elite Spec for the "trade off" to provide such support/utility.
Classes/Elite Specs who provide these boons/utility need to do in their own UNIQUE class specific way. With this idea in mind, there needs to be LESS passive buff application and MORE reactive buff applications. Example: All the pulsring fury and might traits are just a "copy pasta" of one another.
Guild Wars is on the road to homogenizing classes already, and they want the game to be accessible to as many people as possible. For those who play fewer classes could hope to fill more roles than what is currently available to them in game. With that in mind, a class like Warrior(for example) should have its own unique way of providing vital boons IN ITS OWN WAY(this is VERY IMPORTANT to keep in mind. And no, I am not talking about Banners. This will be explained later in the warrior section).  With this in mind, that leaves the problem of Core Specs being less desirable than Elite Specs. You can't just go buffing all Core Traits because that intern will just buff Elite Specs as well. One possible way around this could be the ability to applying a buff to Core classes for BEING a Core class that could bring its DPS up a little bit (or something of this nature). They can still provide the unique core mechanics of their class and not be underwhelming to Elite Specs (I just thought of this on the spot [probably a hot take]). 

There needs to be a CLEAR indication of intent for each Elite Specialization. 

Warrior: (It's no surprise this class got hit the hardest most recently AND in the past)
I believe ANET's view of warrior is to be a Frontliner who is sustainy and in the thick of things providing morale boosting buffs. Like any other Warrior MMO Archetype.
I genuinely don't have a constructive way of working with the banners the way they are.
My question to Warrior players are whether they even want to be a "Banner Slave" anymore or just do away with those skills and mechanics for new things?

At the very least. Banners could have support skills while ACTIVELY holding the banner. This could make it slightly more interactive.
The best that I could say is that at the very least the banners need to be buffed up in terms of better pulsing boon application.

Community Suggestion Summaries:

• Banner Mechanics changed to a facet-like system with skill flipping function or a kit like system.
• Providing Alacrity through "Tactics" traits under the theme of a War General/Warlord.
• Providing quickness through "Shouts" under the theme of morale boosting a fight via commanding. 

Homogenizing Warrior Specs:

Berserker:
In My opinion. If ANET wants to give Quickness applications to Warrior. This is the Spec to do it on. It has good access to both Power and Condi Dmg.
Quickness in AoE around the Warrior could be achieved in ways like using Rage skills while in Berserk Mode OR causing Reactions while in Berserk Mode. Reactions for example could be like the "King of Fires" trait that detonates Fire Auras with Berserker Skills.

Community Suggestion Summaries: 

• Critical Hits in Berserk Mode causes AoE Quickness via use of a reworked Fatal Frenzy trait.

Spellbreaker:

It's common knowledge that Spellbreaker is not popular in PvE, and it could probably use a bit of tweaking in PvP. This class likely could use a bit of work.
I can't imagine any way that Spellbreaker would be a DPS utility in a PvE setting. So why not consider it a Tank Support Class? It could still have access to Banners and it can bring its own self sustain utility to hold its own. What it could attempt to provide is Alacrity possibly? Maybe consider a possible Alacrity source from a Spellbreaker (in small application) at the start of Counter Blow and a bigger REWARDING Alacrity burst upon activation of Counter Blow. Or maybe just a Big pay off for effectively using Counter Blow in general (Others could elaborate their ideas on how Spellbreaker could provide alac). Meditations are another way of considering an Alacrity source. 
It IS ok if the primary focus of this class is PvP, but it could use a little buffing in my opinion.
Post writing thought: It's not unthinkable to find ways of it being a DPS alacrity source, but of course this would require a lot of adjustments to Damage numbers and modifiers. 

Bladesworn:
I don't have much to say about this spec. It's new and in a decent spot in terms of both PvE and PvP.
Others could probably elaborate better than I when it comes to this spec.

Personally from a PvP perspective, I am not a fan of the stability spam on Dragon Trigger being on such a short cooldown. Along with Aegis spam and its High Self sustain, It is really hard to counter pressure.

Elementalist: (Arguably the most controversial class in the community with both "Non-Ele Mains" and "Cringe Ele Mains")
I believe ANET's goal is to make Ele a versatile class with adaptive/reactive skills to different scenarios. The Ele is arguably the "Mage" Archetype which stereotypically follows the pattern of Low Armor, Low Health, and High Damage output. In My experience, They are consistently afraid of Ele's doing really good Damage (like if the game is balanced off of the top 1%/perfect world scenarios or so that's how it feels). Mind you, Ele CAN DO Damage numbers in the current state of the game, BUT Is it worth the risk playing Ele over other classes that could do comparable damage or better all the while being way more safe? Likely not. So In my opinion, If Ele does incredible Damage (especially in a perfect scenario) I find that being OK. They deserve the reward for the risk.

With the introduction of the new Ele specs, One could argue that, especially in pvp, they all favor "bruiser" play styles. They are close to mid range play styles which promotes "tankier" play styles. Am I alone when I think Ele's damage adjustments are taken a little too far?
 

Community Suggestion Summaries:

• Elemental summons being permanent. (In my opinion this cannot be done through one skill. They would need their own summon key)
• Redefining Ele Trait focus. 
  • Fire = PDPS / Condi DPS / Burning focus
  • Air = PDPS / Crit / Crit Dmg  
  • Earth = High Durability / CDPS / Bleeding focus
    • Earth trait lines are too selfish and don't promote team aspect the game is trying to achieve. (Ex. Stone Heart / Diamond Skin)
  • Water = Healing / Boons / Support focus
  • Arcane = Utility / Boons / (Auras)?
  • Tempest* = DPS (and/or) Defensive support / Alac
  • Weaver = High DPS / Moderate to High Sustain in PvE  (PvP sustain is fine)
  • Catalyst* = DPS (and/or) Offensive support / Quick
    • Staunch Auras affecting party

* Note * Tempest/Catalyst should have damage variants but should  have the CHOICE to go in to DAMAGE related traits there by "sacrificing" damage choosing the support traits 

• Improve Auto Attacks
• Rework Arcane Skills / Conjures 
• Make utility skills less selfish. Outside of possibly just conjure skills most utility skills are very selfish.

At the end of the day. All trait lines could be looked at for build diversity. 

Elemental Conjures 

I believe Conjured Weapons should act more like Engi Kits. Obviously they would need to be toned down significantly in effect and cool downs be worked out accordingly, but having access to a Conjure Weapon kit could help fill in small gaps in Ele's skill rotations whether it be offensive or defensive in nature.
 

Homogenizing Elementalist Specs:

Tempest:
So recently Tempest was given Alacrity. There for it's competition is Mechanist, Druid, Or Renegade. 
Since it has to choose to have Healing Auras OR give Alacrity via Overloads, It is arguably more favorable to do a DPS Alacrity source variant.
The question still persists? Why bring an Alacrity Tempest over the Other competitors when they can provide incredible boons like Stability or have really good support and healing options with NO sacrifices? The answer is, you likely wouldn't when the competitors are clearly better.
Hot-Takes:  Possibly give more Stability sources to Earth Attunement line or to something like Aftershock (this would not be a good idea for PvP to be clear).
Or make healing Auras a Water trait-line which would open up Heal Alac Temp.
PvP Perspective: The most common Tempest build runs "Stone Heart". Which, In My opinion, is an incredibly overpower trait. It is frustrating to deal with in the sense that All the Ele needs to do is camp Earth Attunement and have great sustain with little effort.  This trait also PREVENTS on hit crit traits AND makes Ferocity totally moot. I think toning it down to doing less % critical damage taken would be fine.

• After several tests in both fractals and raids, I personally have come to the conclusion that it is semi difficult/challenging to upkeep perma alacrity if you CANNOT complete an overload. This is especially a problem for HEAL Alac Tempests. I could be mid overload and the team may need emergency healing. Reactively if you swap to water mid overload you do not get your completed Alacrity proc AND you have to wait ~4 seconds to even channel the next overload which would take another 2 to 4 seconds to cast. This results in a significant gap of Alacrity uptime. It is a HUGE set back for Heal Temps. It isn't too much of a bother for Alac DPS Tempests, but it is still sort of there. The simple fix would be to do a lower alac proc on pulsing overloads. That way an Alac Temp can still get a little benefit after not completing an overload. (some would say this is a trade off or have better timing. You can have better timing for emergencies AND other classes actually don't have this problem at all).
  • Note: It is very easy to upkeep perma Alac in a PERFECT WORLD scenario.

Weaver:
Does this spec need to provide "Vital Boons"? No, I think it is fine as is. Though I believe Weaver could play with the barrier share effect a little more.
I'm pretty sure when Weaver came out, ANET's intention was for this to be the "Glass Cannon" DPS Spec. And did they succeed with that at launch.
However, Over the years, the constant adjustment has left it being lackluster over other specs. One thing to note, since Barrier is a unique effect to Weaver. They should have more ways of utilizing it so that they could stick around in a longer lasting fight in a PvE setting. 
Post publish HOT TAKE: Compare Weaver to Scourge (as a unique barrier giving class). Scourge is a very safe and RANGED class that is extremely effective at giving AoE Barrier. Ele should get a way of providing a decent amount of barrier for the risk it takes for being a low armor low HP frontline spec(main-hand sword in mind). Close-range risk for higher payout reward.
Weaver's PvP sustain is quite good. Could it use tweaking in some places? Sure. Possibly. But "Fire Weaver" build would need to have an eye kept on it for any sudden changes.

Catalyst:
So I believe the intention of Catalyst was to be the Offensive Boon Support Spec.
They recently adjusted Spectacular Sphere to do Quickness ONLY when traited at the cost of -10% over all damage. This looks and feels bad. Willbender was a prime example of how awful feeling this mechanic was because it had ALL those trade offs at the launch of EoD, and it was just bad. Other classes like Firebrand monopolize boons and do comparable damage. It boggles my mind why ANET is so afraid of giving a Higher Risk class the pay off it deserves? Am I crazy in thinking this way? 
For the record, I am ok with A DPS Catalyst just doing DPS and NOT providing Quickness. Choosing to Trait and THEN apply Quickness is a GOOD Thing.
 

Ranger: (Very versatile class, could use a bit of touching up. New weapon buffs in most recent patch helped out a ton.)
I believe the general philosophy of this class is achieved. Wide range of damage sources and weapon options. Sure some damages sources could be toned up, but it is for the most part alright.
HOT TAKE: Drop the idea of spirits applying alacrity(later explained down below), and bring back the ability to trait for them to move around like Season 1 of GW2.
With the overall power creep, I honestly don't believe that mobile spirits would be an issue at all. Not even in PvP. I mean, Minion Master existed for a long period of time, and Ranger spirits don't even attack.

Homogenizing Ranger Specs:

Druid:
Obvious intention of Druid is simple a support/healer role. It definite lives up to that expectation.
Going back to my previous statement, where I disagree with Core Specs getting "Vital Boons". I believe Druid (or even SoulBeast) have a good opportunity of applying a source of Alacrity. This can be achieved via a unique way that only druid has like ancient seeds. There could be a trait where the detonation of seeds could apply AoE Alacrity. You can sprout seeds via glyphs or CA mode, and it would not change the functionality of druid and ALSO not force someone to run FULL spirits witch is over all LESS Versatile. 

SoulBeast:
SoulBeast can go several ways. It can be a great DPS option OR a unique support class via stance sharing.
Depending on whether SoulBeast is considered for Homogenizing or not, It can simply provide a unique boon application (quickness or alacrity) upon stance sharing since stances are the most unique factor to SoulBeast. 
Update: With the Axe changes, Power SB is in a terrific spot. If it's goal is JUST a dps class we are going in the right direction

Untamed:
Untamed is a complicated spot. I personally am not sure if it is designed to be more catered towards PvP and it just falls under in PvE. This scope is fine, I am not against something being good in one mode more than another. I am just trying to go about figuring how to make it more inclusive on both modes.
Regardless, I personally wouldn't want this to be anymore than just a DPS class. It can do unique boon striping and projectile blocking as well as being able to manually control pet skills for more support. I feel like that is enough, though certain pets and pet skills should be adjusted accordingly. 

 

Guardian: (The Golden Child, not much else to say here besides it monopolizes most all boons and provides so much support with on trade off)
It's obvious that the generalized scope of the class is a Support Frontliner and it does that job incredibly well.
The issue lies with it being FAR TOO GOOD and over excessive. (Hot Takes Incoming)

Homogenizing Guardian:

Dragon Hunter:
I think the generalized scope of Dragon Hunter is Area Control and Damage. It could be tweaked a bit to bring it in line, but for the most part it does what it was designed to do. I wouldn't recommend any additional support as this should just be a DPS spec. 
(A Hot take idea post-writing Willbender. Dragon Hunters could be a source of Alacrity for the sake of homogenizing via Trap Triggers)

Firebrand: The God Tier class that has reigned supreme for years. Hot Takes incoming.
First off I want to start off with... This class just does far too much of just about everything. It really needs to be toned down. The versatility is so great in one package that almost no matter what you do to OTHER CLASSES this one will always reign supreme. Before you rebuild and raise the foundations, you must first tear and raze the ceiling and structures. My Hot take would require a pretty big/hefty rework to the traits of Firebrand along with merging certain existing traits together and further defining how the role you want to achieve is made within the first set of Major traits. 
Most people may dislike what I am about to say, but here's a shot towards constructive criticism.
Hot Take: Make Virtues  Core again HOWEVER This could change with your choice of a Major Trait option within the first set of Major traits. The result could be acquiring a Tome of your chosen Virtue.
Example:
Top-Line-Trait: Justice Tome. Get access to Tome of Justice and it's powerful damaging spells. (This defines you as a DPS role [could still provide quickness]) The trade off is you lose out on your support capabilities because you chose the damage role.
Mid-Line-Trait: Resolve Tome. Get access to Tome of Resolve and it's powerful healing spells. (This defines that you are a healer/support role[could still provide quickness]) The trade off is that you lose out on Damage Spells and other forms of support like more access to stability and projectile denile.
Bottom-Line-Trait: Courage Tome. Get access to Tome of Courage and it's powerful support spells. (This defines you as a different variant of support through reaction and mitigation of mechanics via Stability and Aegis. [could still provide quickness]). The trade off is that you lose damage and have less access to powerful healing. The result is protection through mitigation and healing from weapons skills/utilities. 
While Choosing your Tome Trait the other traits just respond like regular Core Guardian Virtues. 
Again, the overall problem with Firebrand is that has access to WAY TOO MUCH. It literally just needs to be restricted to what role it wants to fill.

 Willbender:
I think the intended scope of this was simply a very mobile DPS class. I am mostly  OK with the design scope even though it was quite oppressive a little while back in PvP. It has since been toned down for the better. 
It does have a form of Alacrity generation, but I am not totally sold on the fact that Guardian should have access to Alacrity because the Class as a whole has a monopoly on every other boon in the game. I'm OK with it just being a different flavor DPS spec, But for homogenizing sake like other classes Alacrity could go to Willbender or Dragon Hunter. I don't have any current/immediate ideas for Willbender applying Alacrity upon initially writing this (this can be adjusted if others comment with interesting unique ideas

Core Guardian: (Hot Take post publishing)
Give Core Guardian a "bullet system" on their virtues. All other Guardian Elite specs have more appealing virtues. This could be considered a "trade off" going in to those specs since he Elite Specs bring more potent virtue effects and/or mobility options. Why not give Core 'some' kind of advantage.

Necromancer: (Another "GOAT'd" Class)
I believe it's over all design intention is achieved across the board.
It achieves area control, boon corruption, and great sources of damage that mostly favor condition based builds. With that in mind power variants could be bumped up a notch.

Homogenizing Necromancer Specs:

Reaper: 
I believe the overall goal for this spec is to achieve good sustainable power damage. In it's current state it is alright. Could be toned up a tiny bit to bring it in line to an acceptable level. I would not homogenize this spec in the sense of providing "Vital Boons". It should stay as a DPS spec.

Scourge:
Scourge is in a powerful spot. It has access to incredible support capabilities already. Giving it access to "Vital Boons" would be a bit excessive. There is not much that comes to mind about changing this one. It could however use a tiny bit of tweaking in PvP(but extremely carefully) because it can potentially spiral out of control quickly.

Harbinger:
So this class on paper is unique and interesting, BUT the play-style is bleak and uncreative. The Trait choice of pulsing application of power damage, condi damage,  or quickness is incredibly underwhelming. In my opinion we need to look at what makes Harbinger unique as opposed to other classes. Right from the get go, Its elixirs. If the Harbinger chooses to play or fulfill the Quickness role, you should have to spec in to elixirs and elixir potency. It should not be capable of permanent or near permanent quickness as a full Viper's loadout. Simply put, The Grandmaster traits probably need to be look at. Possibly take a step back and define whether Harbinger should be more catered to a particular Damage type over the other. It does not have to have a power line, a condi line, OR a support line. 
The PvP problem: Easy access to quickness is too oppressive. Easy and effective Team quickness is also an issue.

 

Mesmer: ( The unique one, compact versatility with great support abilities)
I believe the overall design of Mesmer is done well enough. Certain trait compatibilities could be adjusted and numbers tuned. These changes are likely beyond my scope. Others could probably elaborate better than I.
Side note: Inspiration Mesmer could use some love.

Homogenizing Mesmer:

Chronomancer:
It's clear that ANET wants Chrono to be the support boon role. With the recent change or Choosing to do either Quickness or Alac is a fine choice. Sure its not perfect and could use some adjustments, but overall I think it is going towards the right direction. Damage numbers are severely lacking, and could use a tune up.

Mirage:
I would like to see a decent spec revolving around Power Damage, but I guess that was supposed to be Virtuoso. Its Condi potential and Support variants are unique and function well enough.  I'm also Ok with this being another source of Alacrity beside Chronomancer. Others could probably elaborate on updates or changes.

Virtuoso:
I'm certain the design scope for this was just to be a damage source and It definitely accomplishes that. I do wish for a more elaborate trait line. One that's not this is the power line, this is the condi line, this is the support line. Personal preference, I would like it being favorable towards Power Damage.

Engineer: ( The Jack of All Trades medium class )
The overall steam-punk gadget vibe is accomplished well enough. It brings a unique archetype with turrets and kits to the genre and is currently successful in fulfilling vital roles. 

Homogenizing Engineer:

Scrapper:
I believe the general scope of this class is to be a unique offensive support role, and this class for the most part is in a great spot at accomplishing that goal. Gyros are a cool and unique way of doing AoE buffs and support. However, I would like to see a less "spammy" way of playing(not dumping all wells and F skills all in one go to accomplish perma quickness). Other than that, the only issue that I had in the past was the overall damage conversion to barrier which seems to have been toned down. No current ideas from my end on a fun and constructive way of hitting that issue.
Post writing idea: Consider giving Scrapper getting the function of "machine like things" a pulsing quickness effect. What I mean by this is: if a Scrapper chooses to bring either turrets or gyros the quickness radiates from the "machine" in an AoE effect. Give this effect a 10 or 15 second interval PER ability. This effect would not change the way the gyros currently function because it would radiate FROM the Scrapper, BUT a Scrapper could strategically place down a turret in an area that would periodically pulse a small quickness proc. You could choose to keep a turret there, or pick up/destroy it and move it somewhere else. (just a weird idea that I thought I'd mention)

Holosmith:
I assume the scope for this class is to simply be a damage dealer, since the other elite specs occupy a support role variant. Low-key I think Holo is a great damage class. It brings an awesome class mechanic that requires a little bit of attention to perform well. 
Personally, I would prefer it staying/being a Power class. With that in mind, some damage numbers and modifiers could be looked at.

Mechanist:
The new god-tier class. It is in an incredible spot. Can fulfill multi-versatile roles in all damage and support types. And with all the Quality of Life changes recently, it accomplishes it's goal as an Alacrity source exceedingly well. It could probably be toned down a tad alongside Firebrand to bring up the newcomers.
 

Thief: ( The Risky Rogue )
Thief is the stereotypical deceptive Rogue class. It accomplishes just that in it's own unique way. It is a higher risk class consider its lower HP values.
Along with Ele, I wouldn't mind this class bringing higher damage values with it's low survivability.

Core Thief issue:
Every thief spec HAS trickery. It is 99% necessary to run it just for the initiative alone. The initiative gain from Trickery should just be base line so that it may give way to class diversity.

Homogenizing Thief:

Daredevil:
I'm sure the design scope for this is just a close-range damage class. Let's be honest, it is just core thief with an extra dodge. I wouldn't do too much to this class besides bringing up some values and maybe it being able to provide endurance regeneration (not necessarily through vigor) to the team.

Deadeye:
Again, the design scope for this class is damage, but at a longer range. I think this is perfectly fine. It fits a unique niche for the Thief archetype. Others could elaborate better on changes or Quality of Life functions.

Specter:
I find this class to be in a good spot for a unique concept perspective. Dedicated this class to be the Thief support class is a fine idea. I do however think, like with Mesmer, they should have the option to choose to invest in either Alacrity OR Quickness. Personally I am on the fence about how well it goes about dealing damage. It's numbers are really high for being a "support" role.

Revenant: (The embodiment of lore)
I was impressed with the class design of Revenant when it first came out. Super unique spin on a heavy archetype class. Closely related to the stereotypical "Dark Knight" archetype from the MMO Genre. 

Homogenizing Revenant:

Herald:
With the recent patch and the attempt to make Herald an offensive boon support with Quickness capabilities is the right way to go.  However, the Quickness output/sources are less than ideal. The values are too low for the quickness output circumstances. I honestly wouldn't be upset if they overtune elite specs so that they can perform up to par with Firebrand and Mech which EASILY over cap on their boons. It sort of boggles my mind that these underdogs have to fight tooth and nail to barely get by. 
Over tuning and bring down later is a better feeling than releasing underwhelming. 

Renegade:
The Original Alacrity bot. I still think it functions at that role quite well. It might need some raising of values to keep up with Mechanist and/or Mirage, But for the most part it is still a decent class.

Vindicator:
Truthfully this class I know the least about. I've seen support roles(earlier on) and as of now, I assume it is catering more towards a damage role? Since Herald and Renegade are capable of accomplishing support roles, making this the damage specialization is an alright way to go about it.

This post was quite lengthy and it took up a bit of time.
 I will continue to update EVERY Profession category to include PvE and PvP Comments throughout the post.
Also, I didn't have the time to edit and proof read upon posting.

TLDR: Firebrands and Mechanists need to be toned down and/or other classes need to be raised up to a comparable level.
If homogenizing is the future of GW2. Classes need to be given access to vital boons HOWEVER each class should have their own unique way of applying buffs. Preferably less passive and more active gameplay. Vital boons should be given to Elite specs, NOT core specs.

Cheers!

Let's spark some interesting conversations and ideas!

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Aurawind.8429
Tempest suggestion

[oscuro.9720]

As for warrior; 

 

Banners: Numerous threads of similar ideas on the warrior Su forum. A lot of very well thought out ideas, valid criticisms, and further refined ideas. The two prevailing ideas are (and this is a very brief and general overview);

- Banners as a facet-style skill: Banner is now located on the warrior, pulses boons with a flip over skill that gives a payoff. Cool down once flip skill is used or banner duration expires. 
- Banners as kits: Summoning a banner gives access to a suite of banner skills that are useful and focused on different aspects of gameplay depending on the banner used. 
 

Berserker: 

Most warriors agree that quickness makes sense on berserker. The best idea I’ve seen is something along the lines of adding the following minor trait:

- Fatal Frenzy: Critical hits while in berserk mode grant quickness to you and nearby allies.

obviously there would need to be an ICD and what not. Then you can replace Eternal champion with something like:

- Gain Fatal Frenzy’s effect while not in berserk mode (potentially with a smaller quickness duration or something)

There’s other ideas on the warrior forum for how this can be done, the prevailing sentiment is that berserker is where it fits best. 
 

Spellbreaker: 

I don’t view spell breaker as a boon support as a good idea, and I know there’s several warriors who agree with me. Firstly, it’s spell BREAKER not spell GIVER. I think it’s okay to have a competitive-first spec, and spell absolutely fits that role. It needs to be buffed in competitive modes, but it’s not far off from being in a good place imo. Small changes like changing boon strips to steal, revamping revenge counter, etc. are all viable ways to do this and can be found in large quantity on the warrior forum. 
 

Baldesworn: 

Idk tbh, I don’t play much blade. I prefer the other specs personally. Probably would be a better place for alacrity support than spellbreaker via GM traits and utils, considering it’s reliance on ammo cool downs and already having a focus on reducing recharges. This is all just speculation of an individual though. 
As for Blade in competitive, it’s carried by its high self healing, but its definitely counterable. 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Mikali.9651]

I don't want banners. Remove them and you will actually have easier time giving options to Warrior, it will also feel more natural, it's just not fun having banners, like really, let's move away from being banner slaves. 

Rework traits, rework utility skills, rework weapons...there is plenty of things that are just too old for a Warrior, and use them to make a modern Warrior...one that isn't so selfish anymore, cuz basically 95% of skills and boons are all just selfish and for a Warrior...not good for 2022.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Mikali.9651

[Karagee.6830]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

As for warrior; 

 

Banners: Numerous threads of similar ideas on the warrior Su forum. A lot of very well thought out ideas, valid criticisms, and further refined ideas. The two prevailing ideas are (and this is a very brief and general overview);

- Banners as a facet-style skill: Banner is now located on the warrior, pulses boons with a flip over skill that gives a payoff. Cool down once flip skill is used or banner duration expires. 
- Banners as kits: Summoning a banner gives access to a suite of banner skills that are useful and focused on different aspects of gameplay depending on the banner used. 
 

Berserker: 

Most warriors agree that quickness makes sense on berserker. The best idea I’ve seen is something along the lines of adding the following minor trait:

- Fatal Frenzy: Critical hits while in berserk mode grant quickness to you and nearby allies.

obviously there would need to be an ICD and what not. Then you can replace Eternal champion with something like:

- Gain Fatal Frenzy’s effect while not in berserk mode (potentially with a smaller quickness duration or something)

There’s other ideas on the warrior forum for how this can be done, the prevailing sentiment is that berserker is where it fits best. 
 

Spellbreaker: 

I don’t view spell breaker as a boon support as a good idea, and I know there’s several warriors who agree with me. Firstly, it’s spell BREAKER not spell GIVER. I think it’s okay to have a competitive-first spec, and spell absolutely fits that role. It needs to be buffed in competitive modes, but it’s not far off from being in a good place imo. Small changes like changing boon strips to steal, revamping revenge counter, etc. are all viable ways to do this and can be found in large quantity on the warrior forum. 
 

Baldesworn: 

Idk tbh, I don’t play much blade. I prefer the other specs personally. Probably would be a better place for alacrity support than spellbreaker via GM traits and utils, considering it’s reliance on ammo cool downs and already having a focus on reducing recharges. This is all just speculation of an individual though. 
As for Blade in competitive, it’s carried by its high self healing, but its definitely counterable. 

 

All very sensible and all correct.

[Curennos.9307]

Overall excellent post tbh and highlights, imo, the clear issue - anet has no design paradigm they adhere to. Rules exist for some classes but not for others. I would bet money that there is no graphic created by anyone in the company that is, say, a circle splitting out the different areas of effectiveness (say, damage/healing/durability, or damage/personal support/ally support) that then breaks down where each class falls within the graphic...HERE is the line between damage and support, and that's where a scourge build falls. I just don't think they have an idea of how things should be limited - this is how we end up with pure DPS specs doing, idk, 40k DPS, and then there's specter doing...What was it, 38k? 39k? But also having access to consume shadows, which is ridiculously overpowered for having it on a DPS spec and it still functions VERY well on a full DPS specter. It's how we got mechanist, which does everything well, and even when it's filling a support/heal/boon build it can still output decent damage, or have not-insignificant personal durability, etcetc.

 

If I was being paid to do this - which I'm not, unfortunately, but one can dream - I'd start by making that graphic mentioned above. I think damage, personal support, and allied support is better than damage/heal/durability or damage/support/tank because it 1) Leans more towards what anet seems to want to accomplish insofar as the holy trinity or lack thereof and 2) Cuts to the core, imo, as really healing can be rolled up under support. Then again, vulnerability exists, which buffs ally damage but does it by debuffing the enemy, so...Anyway, anet NEEDS something like this so they can quantify what, exactly, a spec is meant to do, how it's meant to do it, and what it ISN'T supposed to be doing as a result. My example up there probably has some serious flaws that would have to be hammered out in further iterations.

 

If my spec does damage and debuffs the opponent, the damage should not be top tier and the debuff should not be top tier (say, being able to achieve 15-20 stacks of vuln on an enemy on my own vs a full dedicated debuffer achieving 25 stacks on their own), but they can do both. If my spec does top tier damage, it shouldn't be putting out any debuffs, healing, barrier, or any other sort of allied support. If my build does top tier damage over time/sustained damage by relying heavily on DoT upkeep, it shouldn't also have absurd burst (Burning specs kinda...break this). And so on and so forth.

 

Anet needs to do that - and then share it with its players so we can give appropriate feedback. It's impossible to give them good feedback if we haven't the foggiest what they're actually going for, and what it on and off the table. For example, initially I would have LOVED to see specter become a unique-damage buffer, providing frequent, small ally barriers that ALSO applied Rot Wallow Venom, letting the specter deal damage via allies, and give a single ally a unique damage buff through tethering with their shroud (kind of like FFXIV's dancer, who chooses a single dance partner and they get buffs). Is this something they're interested in? I don't know - I assume not, though, since it seems like anet is trying to push every kind of buff or debuff into their condi/boon framework. I'd also love to know why anet hasn't implemented a spec that deals damage through healing, or heals allies through damage, or deals damage by applying barriers to allies so enemies take damage then they 'pop' the barrier (I really enjoyed disc priest in WoW, okay, shh).

 

Genuine +1 to your post though. Think I've rambled on more than enough, and I def agree with the main points - I've been complaining to friends often that giving out more options to fill the required support roles is fine, but anet is just making them **boring** by making it basically passive upkeep. 

 

'Do your DPS rotation for 40k DPS, or...do your DPS rotation for 30k DPS and you also give your party quickness, for some reason'. - your local harbringer. I can appreciate the direction they're trying to go in, but I really hope they pull it together. The primary thing keeping me playing GW2 is the uniqueness of each spec, and they've been steadily shaving away at that joy a little bit every year.

[Aurawind.8429]

1 hour ago, Curennos.9307 said:

If I was being paid to do this - which I'm not, unfortunately, but one can dream - I'd start by making that graphic mentioned above. I think damage, personal support, and allied support is better than damage/heal/durability or damage/support/tank because it 1) Leans more towards what anet seems to want to accomplish insofar as the holy trinity or lack thereof and 2) Cuts to the core, imo, as really healing can be rolled up under support. Then again, vulnerability exists, which buffs ally damage but does it by debuffing the enemy, so...Anyway, anet NEEDS something like this so they can quantify what, exactly, a spec is meant to do, how it's meant to do it, and what it ISN'T supposed to be doing as a result. My example up there probably has some serious flaws that would have to be hammered out in further iterations.

If my spec does damage and debuffs the opponent, the damage should not be top tier and the debuff should not be top tier (say, being able to achieve 15-20 stacks of vuln on an enemy on my own vs a full dedicated debuffer achieving 25 stacks on their own), but they can do both. If my spec does top tier damage, it shouldn't be putting out any debuffs, healing, barrier, or any other sort of allied support. If my build does top tier damage over time/sustained damage by relying heavily on DoT upkeep, it shouldn't also have absurd burst (Burning specs kinda...break this). And so on and so forth.

Anet needs to do that - and then share it with its players so we can give appropriate feedback. It's impossible to give them good feedback if we haven't the foggiest what they're actually going for, and what it on and off the table. For example, initially I would have LOVED to see specter become a unique-damage buffer, providing frequent, small ally barriers that ALSO applied Rot Wallow Venom, letting the specter deal damage via allies, and give a single ally a unique damage buff through tethering with their shroud (kind of like FFXIV's dancer, who chooses a single dance partner and they get buffs). Is this something they're interested in? I don't know - I assume not, though, since it seems like anet is trying to push every kind of buff or debuff into their condi/boon framework. I'd also love to know why anet hasn't implemented a spec that deals damage through healing, or heals allies through damage, or deals damage by applying barriers to allies so enemies take damage then they 'pop' the barrier (I really enjoyed disc priest in WoW, okay, shh).

Genuinely appreciated your response, I think I am going to add a clear segment about a lot of your points.

[Hellz.3058]

"Post publish HOT TAKE: Compare Weaver to Scourge (as a unique barrier giving class). Scourge is a very safe and RANGED class that is extremely effective at giving AoE Barrier. Ele should get a way of providing a decent amount of barrier for the risk it takes for being a low armor low HP frontline spec (main-hand sword in mind). Close-range risk for higher payout reward." So, should weaver be a pseudo- support like scourge too? Or where do you draw the line between decent barrier and decent dmg? As most people know scourge has always had high dmg / high sustain particularly in PvE
 

[Aurawind.8429]

1 minute ago, Hellz.3058 said:

"Post publish HOT TAKE: Compare Weaver to Scourge (as a unique barrier giving class). Scourge is a very safe and RANGED class that is extremely effective at giving AoE Barrier. Ele should get a way of providing a decent amount of barrier for the risk it takes for being a low armor low HP frontline spec (main-hand sword in mind). Close-range risk for higher payout reward." So, should weaver be a pseudo- support like scourge too? Or where do you draw the line between decent barrier and decent dmg? As most people know scourge has always had high dmg / high sustain particularly in PvE
 

In a way, Yes. It should be a 'kind of' support class. 
Scourge = High Dmg, High Sustain at RANGE
Weaver = High Dmg, High Sustain(in the same way) at MELEE range. Different flavor play style, similar effect.

[Hellz.3058]

Just now, Aurawind.8429 said:

In a way, Yes. It should be a 'kind of' support class. 
Scourge = High Dmg, High Sustain at RANGE
Weaver = High Dmg, High Sustain(in the same way) at MELEE range. Different flavor play style, similar effect.

There's one huge difference between scourge and weaver though....

Weaver is by far the harder class to play of the two. Should harder builds be more rewarding in your opinion? Or what would be the allure of playing weaver over scourge, if you can just pick the easier of the two?

[Aurawind.8429]

2 minutes ago, Hellz.3058 said:

There's one huge difference between scourge and weaver though....

Weaver is by far the harder class to play of the two. Should harder builds be more rewarding in your opinion? Or what would be the allure of playing weaver over scourge, if you can just pick the easier of the two?

Weaver does not necessarily need to be "more rewarding" than scourge. Giving a little more for a 'harder class' wouldn't be a bad thing.
Answering your question the best way I can.
Question: If they fundamentally do the same thing, why not just pick the easier of the two?
Answer: Yes, likely, the general populous will  go to the easier option, BUT this would OPEN the door to Build Diversity and play style variety for THOSE who SEEK it. If this brings even slightly more of an audience that in itself provides a healthier state of the game. Worse case scenario: People just stick with scourge `\_o_/`

[AliamRationem.5172]

30 minutes ago, Hellz.3058 said:

There's one huge difference between scourge and weaver though....

Weaver is by far the harder class to play of the two. Should harder builds be more rewarding in your opinion? Or what would be the allure of playing weaver over scourge, if you can just pick the easier of the two?

They could at least stop making weaver straight up worse than other classes in group play, though.  The whole selfish-DPS with every limitation you can possibly apply to it is a dated design when you've got classes that are competitive with it on DPS but also have range, defense, more health, more utility, more, more, more.  Melee DPS with no utility, reliant on boon support, sensitive rotation, low health/armor, etc. should be easily the top damage spec because it obviously can't always perform at its best as easily as these other specs.

[Aurawind.8429]

8 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

They could at least stop making weaver straight up worse than other classes in group play, though.  The whole selfish-DPS with every limitation you can possibly apply to it is a dated design when you've got classes that are competitive with it on DPS but also have range, defense, more health, more utility, more, more, more.  Melee DPS with no utility, reliant on boon support, sensitive rotation, low health/armor, etc. should be easily the top damage spec because it obviously can't always perform at its best as easily as these other specs.

Yea, it really does need to be an all out glass cannon that is selfish and ANET should NOT be afraid of it's numbers or damage output OR be a melee barrier support provider along with some damage.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Aurawind.8429

[The Boz.2038]

Am I the only one who thinks that order, discipline, martial cadence, etc. translate into alacrity, and not quickness?

(Warrior should have had alacrity, not quickness, is what I'm saying; if anything, if it needs be core)

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Am I the only one who thinks that order, discipline, martial cadence, etc. translate into alacrity, and not quickness?

(Warrior should have had alacrity, not quickness, is what I'm saying; if anything, if it needs be core)

Thematically, I absolutely agree.

Discipline, banners, etc. give me the feeling of a warlord giving organized orders to their soldiers to get the most out of their resources. Which translates into alacrity for me instead of quickness.

Quickness would have made more sense for me when it would have been about shouts. Something that is rallying and hyping up your soldiers, making them go to their limits.

[Infinity.2876]

I think firebrand is really bad in sPvP as it can't juggle sustain damage and support like core.

I'd would like it if you got reduced recharge on a tome you exit early (see: engineer turrets, thief stealth attacks, etc.) This would go a long way in making it viable in spvp.

 

For elementalist I think a lot of elementalist s out there would agree that elementals need to be permanent (until they die) also fire axe and lightning hammer needs a buff

 

dragonhunter traits are bad. They need to buff bulwark, hunters fortification and soaring devastation traps would be tuned down to accommodate

 

also virtuoso's shatters are ridiculously hard to hit. Enough said.

 

 

 

 

[Aurawind.8429]

6 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

I think firebrand is really bad in sPvP as it can't juggle sustain damage and support like core.

I'd would like it if you got reduced recharge on a tome you exit early (see: engineer turrets, thief stealth attacks, etc.) This would go a long way in making it viable in spvp.

 

For elementalist I think a lot of elementalist s out there would agree that elementals need to be permanent (until they die) also fire axe and lightning hammer needs a buff

 

dragonhunter traits are bad. They need to buff bulwark, hunters fortification and soaring devastation traps would be tuned down to accommodate

 

also virtuoso's shatters are ridiculously hard to hit. Enough said.

 

 

 

 

Firebrand does need a lot of work in PvP. The problem is, It would literally needs its own split PvP balance no matter what.

Elementals are an interesting thing to look at, however in my opinion, Elementals are arguably stronger than Necro minions AND Eles have an easier way of keeping them up with AoE healing (unironically I do have a minion ele build that works quite well). I'm not against permanent elementals, but they would need to have their own summon skill and not all come from ONE glyph.

As for Dragonhunter, along with a lot of other classes, simply going over the traits would be the foundation of bringing it up in  line with other specs.

[Cait Sith.4650]

A good read, and plenty of great suggestions made too. 🤞🏽

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

First things first, agree with pretty much everything you posted - I say "pretty much" because I didn't read all of it, as I'm only interested in 1 of the 9 professions 😄 

My main profession is Ranger so I mostly focused on that part while reading. And I really liked the idea of taking alacrity from Spirits and instead giving it to Druid's seeds. Although at the same time I don't mind how things are now and I do like the ability of providing a tiny bit of alacrity as an Untamed or Soulbeast. 

I've been playing Untamed since EoD released and I gotta say, I never thought I would love it so much. I knew I would like it, but I find myself playing Untamed all the time, even though I still love Soulbeast and Druid. I like how it's still versatile even though it's obviously meant for DPS - I prefer condi builds, so of course I run condi Untamed, and to me it's so much fun to play and does pretty good damage too. I know a lot of people want the Untamed to suffer some changes, but honestly I don't see what exactly could be changed to make it better. I think it's pretty strong if played right. Would love to read more about this from others' perspectives.

Edited July 18, 2022 by TheLadyOfTheRings.9148

[the krytan assassin.9235]

For Ele i'd suggest that some traitlines need a more defined role. The current role per trait atm is in my opinion:

 

Fire: burning & Pdps

Air: Pdps and Burst

Earth: surviveability and bleeding

Water: healing and condi cleanse

Arcane: ???

Tempest: aurashare, alac, ???

Weaver: Cdps, Pdps and surviveability

Catalyst: Pdps, boonsupport and surviveability

 

Arcane and Tempest lack flavour in any sort of way. Both their adept and master traits are completely useless atm.

Earth Grandmaster trait doesn't have any sort of condi related trait atm -> should get one. Diamond skin & stone heart only provide self surviveability which doesn't work in a game that is designed towards group play. 

Fire adept lacks any sort of Pdps trait. Smothering aura's has no reason to be in Fire at all ->should be in water. 

Air traits severely lack build diversity. In 95% of the builds it's 3-2-1. Lightning Rod and stormsoul are way to situational to compete with raging storm and bolt to the heart. Fresh air used to be decent for pvp/wvw because of decent dps on lightning whip and lightning strike but Both got nerfed hard making the trait practically useless. Also air deserves some group support superspeed traitlines

Weaver is mostly fine, however the barrier on Dodge roll should be shared with allies. 

Cata's traits -10% dps on spectacular sphere should be instantly removed since it's not able to compete with other quickness classes. Staunch aura's should give stab to full party instead of solo. Empowered empowerment should double the effects of elemental empowerment at any given stack, not just with 10 stacks. Also, why is there no trait that is specifically designed towards augments?

 

For utility skills arcane & conjures need a rework. Arcane skills don't feel impactfull enough and conjure weapons need to operate in the same way as engie kits. 

 

For weapon skills:

Air should be given back his role as dmge dealer and vuln applier. It needs some good sustainable DPS (good AA).

All different attunements should be able to provide a somewhat decent dps when running a powerbuild so that the player can use the attunement swaps to their full potential. This is especially needed for staff. All AA's should be buffed to deal close to the amount of dps of fireball. Projectile speed should be boosted by 50-100%, casting time shortened and water& earth should be AoE attacks aswell. 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by the krytan assassin.9235

[ATMAvatar.5749]

On 7/11/2022 at 2:19 AM, Hellz.3058 said:

There's one huge difference between scourge and weaver though....

Weaver is by far the harder class to play of the two. Should harder builds be more rewarding in your opinion? Or what would be the allure of playing weaver over scourge, if you can just pick the easier of the two?

It is unlikely there will ever be compensation for one spec being more difficult to play than another.  It doesn't matter if that difficulty comes from health pool differences, armor class differences, rotation complexity differences, ranged vs. melee, etc.

 

In my experience, MMOs in general (GW2 is no exception) suffer what I call the "little brother" effect, whereby players will complain about minuscule DPS differences without any regard for other factors like difficulty or utility.  The player doing 39K DPS will complain it's unfair someone else is doing 40K DPS, even if the first player is ranged, has a 20K health pool, wears heavy armor, has a 2-button rotation, and provides every boon under the sun, while the second player is melee, has a 12K health pool, wears light armor, has a 20-button rotation that falls apart immediately with the slightest mistakes, and provides absolutely nothing else to the group.

 

As a result, I argue a primary goal should be to minimize difficulty and utility differences between specs, and by extension, professions.  That isn't to say everyone should be identical - the difficulty can (and should) manifest itself in different ways between different specs (e.g., one spec is heavily position and range dependent, another has to juggle resources, another has longer rotations, another has to manage procs, etc.).

 

 

[Aurawind.8429]

5 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

For Ele i'd suggest that some traitlines need a more defined role. The current role per trait atm is in my opinion:

Fire: burning & Pdps
Air: Pdps and Burst
Earth: surviveability and bleeding
Water: healing and condi cleanse
Arcane: ???
Tempest: aurashare, alac, ???
Weaver: Cdps, Pdps and surviveability
Catalyst: Pdps, boonsupport and surviveability

Arcane and Tempest lack flavour in any sort of way. Both their adept and master traits are completely useless atm.

With this in mind, you actually gave me a pretty cool set of ideas.
My thoughts on defined Roles via traits.

Fire = PDPS / Burning / Condi DPS
Air = PDPS / Crit / Crit Dmg
Earth  =  High Sustain / Condi DPS / Bleed
Water = Healing / Boons / Support
Arcane =  Utility (could help Glyph skills with Arcane skills) / Boons / Auras 
Tempest*  = Moderate to High (if going full dps) DPS whilst being a defensive support / Alac 
Weaver = High DPS / Moderate to High Sustain (in PvE)  [PvP Sustain is fine]
Catalyst* = Moderate to High(if going full dps) DPS whilst being an offensive support. Could also use Augment Support.

*Note* These classes should have a DPS variant  with comparable numbers to other classes BUT you should sacrifice damage via traits that aren't just "do -10% outgoing damage". For example, like having the choice of a damage trait that DOES damage VS simply picking a more support oriented trait instead. This would result in you ''losing'' damage for not picking the dps trait.

I don't think Tempest should be exclusive to Aura Share. Aura's were originally a very unique thing to Core Ele. Tempest just happened to provide a trait that ended up making Aura's heal.
In my opinion, Arcane would be a nice place to put Aura Sharing for class diversity. This would open up other Elite spec's to Aura share too. However, Tempest would still be unique for having Healing Aura's and/or more traits that react with Auras. I would not want that to change since I believe Anet intended Tempest to be Defensive Support in nature.

Traits in general need to be look at across the board in hopes of class diversity.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Aurawind.8429
arcane thought

[Myror.7521]

To me warrior do not need to be a support/dps mix. It should simply be somewhat tanky and dealing good melee damage with weapons. So all the specs of warr just simply are mutiple ways to deal dps. Berserker is just that one that goes for great and hard aoe damage but lost some defence while in rage Mode. Spellbraker is the opposide it goes for defence damage (thx to fullcounter) but lost some ways to deal hard dps. (Thats why its somewhat decent in pvp) Bladesworn on the other Hand is just the hard onetarged dps that also get somewhat good self sustain to compensate the Lack of aoe dmg. But it would be nice to see finaly a bit of support warr spec in the future something that works with banners/shouts and New Utility skills that bring even more offensive buffs. But to bring a traitoff you lost your burst skill for idk maybe 1-5 supportive style screams to bring your Team mates barrier/condi cleanes/and maybe applie some unique boons that buffs your teammates around yourself. 

 

To be fair this idea would maybe be too good but still i would love to see all those (gw1 Paragon style) things for warr since we finaly need some supp on warr since dps only is just mehh xd.

[Serephen.3420]

Best long post read I've had on these forums in a long time. Especially like the guardian suggestions, warrior ones seem alright too, heck even ele. Anyways, like to see this kinda stuff. Would be nice if they assigned people with this kind of indepth thought and understanding on the balance team. 

 

Doesn't mean it's perfect but much better than what many players/devs have brought forward so far. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Serephen.3420

[Curennos.9307]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:53 AM, Pati.2438 said:

To me warrior do not need to be a support/dps mix. It should simply be somewhat tanky and dealing good melee damage with weapons. So all the specs of warr just simply are mutiple ways to deal dps. Berserker is just that one that goes for great and hard aoe damage but lost some defence while in rage Mode. Spellbraker is the opposide it goes for defence damage (thx to fullcounter) but lost some ways to deal hard dps. (Thats why its somewhat decent in pvp) Bladesworn on the other Hand is just the hard onetarged dps that also get somewhat good self sustain to compensate the Lack of aoe dmg. But it would be nice to see finaly a bit of support warr spec in the future something that works with banners/shouts and New Utility skills that bring even more offensive buffs. But to bring a traitoff you lost your burst skill for idk maybe 1-5 supportive style screams to bring your Team mates barrier/condi cleanes/and maybe applie some unique boons that buffs your teammates around yourself. 

 

To be fair this idea would maybe be too good but still i would love to see all those (gw1 Paragon style) things for warr since we finaly need some supp on warr since dps only is just mehh xd.

I would love to see anet be more imaginative with how they implement support options. I think their recent changes with banners was the worst move they could possibly make - just making X skill vomit out boons is boring, though to an extent I can understand where they're trying to go with boons (not every boon should require super large amounts of effort or complex rotation to put out). I really, really enjoy for example Specter's Rot Wallow Venom - sort of a damage thing while supporting. 

 

One thing I could see warrior doing is getting some unique damage buffs it can give to allies, or an ally - like RWV but power based, where they do...idk, *something*, and give an ally 5% bonus damage for some duration, and it can't be kept up 100%. So the warr would do, idk, 30k DPS or something but increase group power DPS but enough to more than make up for the difference. Sort of like specter's tether. 

 

I also think strong, but temporary (as in, you can't maintain it 100% uptime no matter what you do) would help out power builds, as they seem to be struggling raid-DPS wise compared to condi, as temporary but stronger damage buffs would favor burst over sustained damage, so power builds could squeeze out more damage that way over condi setups.