Untamed - Fervent Force nerf suggestion

[xXxOrcaxXx.9328]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

First Overbearing Smash which has a two stuns 1 second apart so increasing the internal cooldown would really ruin this skill with Fervent Force.

Then add an internal cooldown to the trait of however short, so that Overbearing smash won't trigger both charges of Fervent Force. Or alternatively, retool Fervent Force to only trigger once per skill used, even if that skill includes multiple CCs.

Quote

The real problem is Path of Scars and the Weapon trait that lowers the cooldown by 20%. Essentially 12 seconds for a stun can easily be reset via another stun.
If they remove the cooldown redction from the trait or just increase the Path of Scars cooldown this would fix most of Untames FF problem.

Why would you nerf a core weapon just because a trait of an elite spec makes it problematic? That is literally the same situation as with One Wolf Pack. OWP got nerfed, so that the core weapons could be buffed. Similarly, FF will be nerfed long before ANet even considers nerfing everything else but that trait.

Edited November 13, 2022 by xXxOrcaxXx.9328

[Vordrax.5243]

Fervent Force needs some kind of rework, and Untamed does as well. Don't get me wrong, Fervent Force might be the single most fun trait in the game. Most of my game time in the past couple of weeks has been on Untamed. FF initially feels pretty clunky, but it's something you can get over with some practice. The issue with it is kinda two-fold:

 

1.) It is spec-defining but a choice. These kind of trap decisions should be pruned from the game - it is significantly more powerful than either of its sibling traits, and there is no way to balance the spec around being good with and without Fervent Force without either significantly nerfing FF or making the other two grandmaster traits far more powerful. Fervent Force should become a minor trait that all Untamed will have, so that the spec can be balanced including this ability.

 

2.) Despite being the single most powerful part of the Untamed, it has very little to do with the spec. It affects all cooldowns, and it procs on all disables. It should trigger on something actually related to the Untamed - either have it trigger whenever one of the Unleashed pet abilities are used, or have it trigger whenever an Unleashed Ambush happens.

 

Anyways, that's basically what I'd like to see. Add the Fervent Force proc to Unleashed Power so that it triggers off of Unleashed Ambushes, reduce the internal cooldown of Unleashed Ambush a bit (it's 15 seconds now which feels pretty long, but I'm not a balance-ologist so who knows), and add a new Grandmaster Talent (maybe one that is either support focused or condi focused.) That way, Fervent Force becomes an assumed part of Untamed, and the entire spec won't have to be balanced around a grandmaster trait.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, xXxOrcaxXx.9328 said:

Then add an internal cooldown to the trait of however short, so that Overbearing smash won't trigger both charges of Fervent Force. Or alternatively, retool Fervent Force to only trigger once per skill used, even if that skill includes multiple CCs.

I don't think you understand what I meant. Right now it does trigger Fervent Force twice because FF has a 1 seconds internal cooldown. If it didn't then you would also have to change Overbearing Smash.

1 hour ago, xXxOrcaxXx.9328 said:

Why would you nerf a core weapon just because a trait of an elite spec makes it problematic? That is literally the same situation as with One Wolf Pack. OWP got nerfed, so that the core weapons could be buffed. Similarly, FF will be nerfed long before ANet even considers nerfing everything else but that trait.

Then give it a damage buff, I don't think people are switching to Axe offhand to use Path of Scars except for Untamed. 3 extra seconds on the cooldown would fix the broken Untamed build.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mazinger.1084]

I feel like this trait's impact is being severely exaggerated... something people seem all to eager to do whenever ranger has something good.  Where exactly is Fervent Force defining any meta right now?  Is it dominating in PvP or WvW?  Am I missing all the calls for FF Untamed in instanced content?  Where are all the complaints coming from pointing to a 2 sec cooldown reduction being overbearing on the forums?

Meanwhile, we have other specs that are and have been decimating rangers in every way since launch, but oh boy that Fervent Force!  Traits that rangers can only dream of having are seen as commonplace with other classes, but here we are telling anet how much lube we'll need before they change this trait.  How about they just let us have this rare nice thing that can maybe remind people rangers are a threat?

Edited November 14, 2022 by Mazinger.1084

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Mazinger.1084 said:

I feel like this trait's impact is being severely exaggerated... something people seem all to eager to do whenever ranger has something good.  Where exactly is Fervent Force defining any meta right now?  Is it dominating in PvP or WvW?  Am I missing all the calls for FF Untamed in instanced content?  Where are all the complaints coming from pointing to a 2 sec cooldown reduction being overbearing on the forums?

Meanwhile, we have other specs that are and have been decimating rangers in every way since launch, but oh boy that Fervent Force!  Traits that rangers can only dream of having are seen as commonplace with other classes, but here we are telling anet how much lube we'll need before they change this trait.  How about they just let us have this rare nice thing that can maybe remind people rangers are a threat?

 

It is indeed grossly overstated. 

The only place where FF is used at the moment is Raids, and if you look at Snowcrows, the untamed vs. soulbeast build there is 38k (for slb) vs. 42k (for untamed).  Literally negligible difference.

FF is not and cannot be used anywhere else because you need a stationary target for most of the CCs to land.  That is, Path of Scars, Storm Spirit, Exploding Spores etc. are not going to hit moving targets, so you essentially have maul and the bow skills.  Even if these land it is little difference to just using Quick Draw.  

Not to mention seemingly the majority crying for a 'rework' of Untamed want more LI functionality like mechanist.  That cannot be healthy for the game.  

You are right though, most times the devs balance upon memes or outcries against something rather than logic.  See the upcoming patch with Drake, there was nothing else to balance so they nerfed Chomp.  There was no thought to this, no discussion on how you can get bigger bursts (in sPvP no less) with other pets than Drake--just 'nerf' because it was path of least resistance to say they did something.

The funny thing is they can't put a concrete reason on why they want to nerf FF because it would violate their 'don't balance around golem' philosophy.  So for now we get 'we're looking at it' which essentially means 'the community hates it, and we'll figure out why later'.  

[xXxOrcaxXx.9328]

9 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

It is indeed grossly overstated. 

The only place where FF is used at the moment is Raids, and if you look at Snowcrows, the untamed vs. soulbeast build there is 38k (for slb) vs. 42k (for untamed).  Literally negligible difference.

 

lol.

[xXxOrcaxXx.9328]

7 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't think people are switching to Axe offhand to use Path of Scars except for Untamed. 3 extra seconds on the cooldown would fix the broken Untamed build.

Have you looked at any power slb rotations the past couple of years?

Path of Scars has one of the highest DPS of all skills available to SLB. (See Skill Priority)

Edited November 14, 2022 by xXxOrcaxXx.9328

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, xXxOrcaxXx.9328 said:

lol.

 

Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with that but you can see the huge ~3k difference in DPS there between Untamed and Soulbeast 😂

[xXxOrcaxXx.9328]

17 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with that but you can see the huge ~3k difference in DPS there between Untamed and Soulbeast 😂

Untamed is the highest DPS spec currently benched. However, as you said, if you can't hit realiably with CC skills, the trait becomes worthless. So what exactly makes you think that a trait that is either useless or massively outperforms everything else in the game is not problematic?

Edited November 14, 2022 by xXxOrcaxXx.9328

[Levetty.1279]

11 minutes ago, xXxOrcaxXx.9328 said:

Untamed is the highest DPS spec currently benched. However, as you said, if you can't hit realiably with CC skills, the trait becomes worthless. So what exactly makes you think that a trait that is either useless or massively outperforms everything else in the game is not problematic?

What is really problematic is that Untamed isn't an elite spec, it is just one trait and Anet thinks they can get away with removing that trait by doing number tweaks.

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

What is really problematic is that Untamed isn't an elite spec, it is just one trait and Anet thinks they can get away with removing that trait by doing number tweaks.

Anet directly said that they are aware that Untamed has basically nothing going for it except FF and that they are working on giving it better tools to work with before doing anything to that trait. No one ever said that these changes will just be number tweaks.

[xXxOrcaxXx.9328]

21 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

What is really problematic is that Untamed isn't an elite spec, it is just one trait and Anet thinks they can get away with removing that trait by doing number tweaks.

Exactly my point. Fervent Force is what makes or breaks Untamed in PvE. It is solely responsible for Untamed leading the benchmark chart. ANet already stated that they are going to change Fervent Force. And I both hope and believe that FF will be toned down, so that the rest of Untamed can be made better. Similar to how the OWP nerf lead to buffs for almost all Ranger weapons.

[Mell.4873]

9 hours ago, xXxOrcaxXx.9328 said:

Have you looked at any power slb rotations the past couple of years?

Path of Scars has one of the highest DPS of all skills available to SLB. (See Skill Priority)

Most people use Warhorn rather off-hand Axe in their rotation (hence your link literally having a Warhorn skill higher priority). Again all you would need is a small damage buff to compensate for the longer cooldown.

[xXxOrcaxXx.9328]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Most people use Warhorn rather off-hand Axe in their rotation (hence your link literally having a Warhorn skill higher priority). Again all you would need is a small damage buff to compensate for the longer cooldown.

Again, have you looked at any PvE power slb builds in the past years? They ALL run offhand axe.

[Vordrax.5243]

9 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with that but you can see the huge ~3k difference in DPS there between Untamed and Soulbeast 😂

Given how absolutely bonkers the community goes for a 3k disparity between benchmarks, I would say that it probably matters (to someone.)

[Gotejjeken.1267]

17 minutes ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

Given how absolutely bonkers the community goes for a 3k disparity between benchmarks, I would say that it probably matters (to someone.)

 

Apparently so--I'm never in endgame PvE scene so have (thankfully) not seen this.  

Since it seems the cries against FF are coming only from PvE, what happens if they go ahead with a nerf to it and the soulbeast stays top DPS bench at 38k? Do you then nerf soulbeast? What number is a 'good' DPS number, and which is a 'bad' one?

Also, why do people care how fast a boss dies in PvE? It seems counterintuitive to want to nerf your highest DPS dealers, as won't you finish slower? 

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

13 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Apparently so--I'm never in endgame PvE scene so have (thankfully) not seen this.  

Since it seems the cries against FF are coming only from PvE, what happens if they go ahead with a nerf to it and the soulbeast stays top DPS bench at 38k? Do you then nerf soulbeast? What number is a 'good' DPS number, and which is a 'bad' one?

Also, why do people care how fast a boss dies in PvE? It seems counterintuitive to want to nerf your highest DPS dealers, as won't you finish slower? 

Fervent Force doesn't make power untamed better than power soulbeast, it makes condi untamed better than condi soulbeast. The important difference between the two applies to what bosses need power VS condi damage (due to the mechanics that govern them- a boss that frequently phases will need to be hit with high burst power professions as opposed to condi professions which need time to build up, and the high burst power professions tend to have lulls in dps while your burst comes back and long phases are better for condis).

 

Pure DPSes should be nerfed based on "taxes" like mentioned in the philosophy post, such as high CC, range, or some other additional effects. For example, with Power Soulbeast, you take Oppressive Superiority. If you want to take Leader of the Pack for Dolyak Stance specifically, that's a DPS loss (usually, there's a bit of nuance with specifically OWP sharing but it's based on the fight and not the group, but for the sake of argument let's say it's less optimal).

 

However, Fervent Force as a trait alone is broken. Looking at it on its own, it's insanely OP. A 4s cooldown every time you hard CC means you can use your skills that pay those "taxes" (i.e. non-damaging powerful utilities with long cooldowns that affect the group) much, MUCH more frequently. Thankfully, Ranger doesn't have many of these- the only realistic one is Forest's Fortification, which only applies to the untamed, or maybe the elite spirit active. Fervent Force could be realistically reworked or removed without harming the PvE meta, simply because the PvE meta isn't dominated by untamed.

 

A "good" DPS number does vary. If you're a pure DPS, with no supportive aspects, maybe with a bit of range, then a number like 35k tends to be considered bad (from the speed clearing side of things), assuming you have to put a decent amount of effort into the rotation- comparing the 38k from power soulbeast to the 37.5k of catalyst, catalyst does technically have a "bad" DPS number, because you get a little less output for significantly more work. However, if you can bring stability, aegis, or some other powerful utility, without sacrificing range, CC, or overall DPS by a significant margin, then it's probably a pretty good number, especially if it's easier to pull off than other DPS options.

 

There's a point where if something does too much more than everything else, then your group won't ever want something else. You say you don't play pve-mechanist on release was so ubiquitous that you couldn't play any other support. DPS was a little different, but people wanted mechanist. Why? Because mechanist could output more for its role than quite a few other options, for less effort. It's the same concept with DPS- if you can pull 55k with a 50 APM rotation VS 36-38k with a 75 APM rotation, then you'd struggle to want the 36-38k people, especially because the people using a 75 APM rotation making mistakes lowers their DPS, and them lowering their DPS is a lot harsher than the 50 APM rotation due to the number difference. You have to keep your DPS options close to each other in the effort to output ratio (i.e. a 25k autoattacking mech isn't an issue if they can't output as much compared to say a 40k DPS 100 APM rotation) in order to prevent individual specs from running rampant.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, xXxOrcaxXx.9328 said:

Again, have you looked at any PvE power slb builds in the past years? They ALL run offhand axe.

I dont think you play Soulbeast in most gamemodes Warhorn is better for power builds. The main exception is a golem or some Raid bosses. The DPS gained or lost by using off-hand Axe is so small most people opt for the much more reliable Warhorn since you don't need to channel its Skill 5.

Again though I'm only saying stick a extra 3 seconds on the Path of Scars cooldown and pump its damage by 10-20% that would not effect any benchmarks. The funny thing is they have already stated they want to remove traits the lower the cooldown of weapons skill by 20% so maybe when they do this for Axe they will just not touch the cooldowns.

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I dont think you play Soulbeast in most gamemodes Warhorn is better for power builds. The main exception is a golem or some Raid bosses. The DPS gained or lost by using off-hand Axe is so small most people opt for the much more reliable Warhorn since you don't need to channel its Skill 5.

Again though I'm only saying stick a extra 3 seconds on the Path of Scars cooldown and pump its damage by 10-20% that would not effect any benchmarks. The funny thing is they have already stated they want to remove traits the lower the cooldown of weapons skill by 20% so maybe when they do this for Axe they will just not touch the cooldowns.

They already announced that they are going to address Fervent Force at some point.

It's not just path of scars, the trait is simply busted by it's very core design. And once they have given Untamed a proper foundation, they will rework the trait.

[Mell.4873]

42 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

They already announced that they are going to address Fervent Force at some point.

It's not just path of scars, the trait is simply busted by it's very core design. And once they have given Untamed a proper foundation, they will rework the trait.

My point is its the Path of Scars that has created the monster that is the 43k DPS Untamed benchmark; Without that skill in no way would you be able to get that much DPS.

I mean it took a while before people realized how powerful Fervent Force was. It took Path of Scars being reset by one other stun creating a loop of CC for that to happen.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Since it seems the cries against FF are coming only from PvE, what happens if they go ahead with a nerf to it and the soulbeast stays top DPS bench at 38k? Do you then nerf soulbeast? What number is a 'good' DPS number, and which is a 'bad' one?

Pretty much. Anet listens to reddit and reddit cries about any build that tops the dps benchmarks unless that build happens to be ele where instead that just proves that Anet hates Ele somehow.