Ascended Salvage Tools & Kits Are Impractical Overpayment - Need Pricing Reduction

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

^ Thread title.

It isn't worth purchasing ascended salvage tools/kits because they are worth far more than the mats you get from salvaging ascended gear.

Lower the flat gold costs of these items or increase the amount of mats you get when salvaging ascended gear, maybe do both.

Drop rates are also too low for finding this stuff from fractal chests nowadays. It needs to be increased.

I have this massive amount of saved backed up ascended trinkets from fractals that I have no way of salvaging without losing gold while doing it. Would be pretty great to be able salvage these and make resource while doing so, especially due to how pricing has changed and how fractals are now only half as lucrative as they used to be in terms of nightly liquid gold gain.

 

[Ashen.2907]

Agreed.

[Lottie.5370]

If you attune any infused rings that drop, it is profitable to salvage them. I'd just merch any non-infused ring tbh. Weirdly the wiki states that stabilising matrixes are only from rings, but they also salvage from accessories too.

 

I also usually end up with more salvage kits than I use if I do CMs & T4s, especially if you get lucky and get a 20 use kit drop.

 

Don't really have a problem with the cost of it either - usually if I salvage gear it's because I want the rune from it, and 1g is usually less than buying a new rune.

 

You also get drops that aren't worth gold, but still have value - i.e. vision crystals, dark energy.

 

 

[Xerxez.7361]

I usually turn ascended gear that isn't Accessories into Research Notes for a better value.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

You'd think this thread would get more attention.

This is no opinion here. Those kits are impractically overpriced.

[Vayne.8563]

35 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You'd think this thread would get more attention.

This is no opinion here. Those kits are impractically overpriced.

It's getting no attention because you get some of them free when running T4 fractals. People who run them seldom pay for kits.

[Labjax.2465]

It is pretty weird and limited, the access to them. I would think ascended items being rare is enough, but apparently the kits need to be too...

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

6 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's getting no attention because you get some of them free when running T4 fractals. People who run them seldom pay for kits.

I run CMs/T4s/Recs just about every night.

I haven't found any asc salv kit drops in almost a year.

If anything I rarely find the single 1 use ascended salvage tool, and I only see those drop like once per week or two. I typically find 1 use of asc salv per about 5 or 6 asc rings/trinkets I find. It's not enough.

I used to find those 20 asc salv kit drops somewhat frequently in fractals, but again, for about the past year I just don't find this stuff ever anymore.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Mungrul.9358]

OP, once you realise that the economy is tuned to steer users to the gem store over time, you'll understand why things like this are overpriced.

[Hotride.2187]

54 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

OP, once you realise that the economy is tuned to steer users to the gem store over time, you'll understand why things like this are overpriced.

But the gemstore has no infinite ascended salvage kit? Or did I miss it? I'd buy it instantly if there was one.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Nash.2681]

8 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's getting no attention because you get some of them free when running T4 fractals. People who run them seldom pay for kits.

Some do, some don't. If you're in the lucky boat and get more kits than stuff to salvage- great. If not, it becomes an issue when you end up with way more useless rings/accessoiries than kits. Getting "rewarded" with the choice between

a) using up even more storage capacities or

b) pay 1g/salvage

c) sell BIS gear for measly 4s95c

doesn't feel great.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Nash.2681
typo

[Mungrul.9358]

Layers Hotride; The price of the kit puts pressure on players' gold reserves, which in combination with pressures from lots of other areas, increases the likelihood that players will buy gold for gems.

 

It's why legendaries have gift requirements that require stupid amounts of materials.

It's why decent gear drops are miniscule.

It's why there's still a coin cost associated with fast travel.

It's why even the infinite salvage kits still cost money to use.

It's why free stat swapping is limited to legendaries.

It's why all mount skins are gem store only.

 

Sure, there will be a few players out there who will never spend a penny in the gem store.

But they're the exception rather than the rule.

[Labjax.2465]

So I was thinking about details, what would you think about something like a flat 50s cost for an Ascended Salvage Kit with 20 uses and then they just get rid of the smaller ones (the 5 and 1 uses) other than as drops if they can drop at that size. It's still quite a jump from Master Salvage Kit (15s, 36c) and then it could act as a gold sink for those who don't have the currency; like at 20 uses, I think it'd be profitable enough, but it would be removing gold from the game to buy it (the profit would be from trading mats to other players).

Just wishful thinking brainstorming, but ya know, might as well.

[Hotride.2187]

7 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Layers Hotride; The price of the kit puts pressure on players' gold reserves, which in combination with pressures from lots of other areas, increases the likelihood that players will buy gold for gems.

But the point of this topic is you probably wont even use the ascended salvage kits, after a point. Unless you attune the rings which is too much work for me.

My main goal for making full legendary was so I could salvage all ascended drops... turns out a lot of the time its better to just vendor them (and they don't sell for much). Its a weird system at the current ascended salvage pricing...

[Vayne.8563]

24 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

Some do, some don't. If you're in the lucky boat and get more kits than stuff to salvage- great. If not, it becomes an issue when you end up with way more useless rings/accessoiries than kits. Getting "rewarded" with the choice between

a) using up even more storage capacities or

b) pay 1g/salvage doesn't feel great or

c) sell BIS gear for measyl 4s95c

doesn't feel great.

I don't do a lot of T4 fractals but I do do some lower level ones more often and get rings all the time.

I attune my rings and salvage them. Over time I make a profit.

[Cyninja.2954]

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You'd think this thread would get more attention.

This is no opinion here. Those kits are impractically overpriced.

You are assuming that the kits are designed to return gold from salvaging ascended gear. You are incorrect.

There is a chance for some return, but overall the kits are merely designed to remove ascended at as little return as possible.

Meanwhile IF the kits were to return resources more reliably, say for example the insignia or inscription, their values would drop on the trading post below what they are now balancing out the increased availability from salvaging. You then would once again come here and complain that salvaging is not profitable. What, did you think you are the only one holding on to hundreds or even thousands of ascended items because salvaging them is not "worth it"?

Ascended salvaging makes sense in limited scenarios and is required in others. That's it.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Nash.2681 said:

Some do, some don't. If you're in the lucky boat and get more kits than stuff to salvage- great. If not, it becomes an issue when you end up with way more useless rings/accessoiries than kits. Getting "rewarded" with the choice between

a) using up even more storage capacities or

b) pay 1g/salvage doesn't feel great or

c) sell BIS gear for measyl 4s95c

doesn't feel great.

Exactly.

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

So I was thinking about details, what would you think about something like a flat 50s cost for an Ascended Salvage Kit with 20 uses and then they just get rid of the smaller ones (the 5 and 1 uses) other than as drops if they can drop at that size. It's still quite a jump from Master Salvage Kit (15s, 36c) and then it could act as a gold sink for those who don't have the currency; like at 20 uses, I think it'd be profitable enough, but it would be removing gold from the game to buy it (the profit would be from trading mats to other players).

Just wishful thinking brainstorming, but ya know, might as well.

Purchasing a 20x use Asc Salv that cost 5g to obtain would still be worth it compared to the 20g + fractal relics that it costs now. Even in the pvp league vendor, which also has 20x use Asc Salv, those things in there are ludicrously overpriced. They are like 20g + 5000 shards of glory, which shards of glory cost 8g per stack of 250, something like that. Why would anyone pay 60g to 100g for a 20x use kit that may render back 20-30g with those 20x uses? The design in these costs is just not correct.

Realistically with a 20x use Asc Salv kit, we are looking casually salvaging asc ring & trinket drops as the norm. We can view average drop rates of Stabilizing Matrices here Salvage - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). Even with the best case scenario of salvaging an attuned double infused ring, the average Matrices found with a single kit use would be 7 to 8. With TP tax cut you're getting back about 19s from each, which would be about 1.40 gold. So with a 20x use kit and only ever salvaging attuned double infused rings, you're paying 20g flat + fractal relics or like 60g - 100g from pvp for 20x use kit, to max gross in only around 28g? Is that even worth the hassle to attune & infuse rings to maximize that profit considering the lose in resources & time you'll accrue while doing it? No, it is not.

Realistically players are looking at getting a mixture of rings/accessories to salvage, and more like 3 to 4 matrices per salvage kit use if you average the numbers, which is more like 14g to 15g per 20x Asc Kit uses vs. the absurd pricing of 20g + fractal relics or 60g - 100g for pvp asc kits. This is just designed wrong.

When you look at the profits made vs. cost to use, for Copper-Fed, Silver-Fed, or just Mystic Salvage Kits/Black Lion Kits, it all makes sense and they yield far more return in resources/gold than they require to use. These designs make sense. But the design behind Asc Salv Kit pricing doesn't make any sense at all. It is actually far more expensive to obtain the kit than what it will ever yield in resources salvaged.

Of course you could wait to find free Asc Kit drops in fractals, but I really don't prefer to rely on RNG for such things. Also, not all of us are so lucky and other just plainly not lucky at all. For example, I haven't found Asc Tools beyond 1x use hammers for just about a year now. I have this stock of random ascended rings/trinkets that is building up that I've been waiting to salvage when I find my next free 20x use kit, but it just doesn't ever happen anymore. Regardless, I'm kind of tired of relying on RNG for it. It's a bad design.

They just need to lower the pricing on this stuff. These prices aren't even "a little steep" they are outrageously overpriced for what they are worth.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Labjax.2465]

8 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Purchasing a 20x use Asc Salv that cost 5g to obtain would still be worth it compared to the 20g + fractal relics that it costs now. Even in the pvp league vendor, which also has 20x use Asc Salv, those things in there are ludicrously overpriced. They are like 20g + 5000 shards of glory, which shards of glory cost 8g per stack of 250, something like that. Why would anyone pay 60g to 100g for a 20x use kit that may render back 20-30g with those 20x uses? The design in these costs is just not correct.

Realistically with a 20x use Asc Salv kit, we are looking casually salvaging asc ring & trinket drops as the norm. We can view average drop rates of Stabilizing Matrices here Salvage - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). Even with the best case scenario of salvaging an attuned double infused ring, the average Matrices found with a single kit use would be 7 to 8. With TP tax cut you're getting back about 19s from each, which would be about 1.40 gold. So with a 20x use kit and only ever salvaging attuned double infused rings, you're paying 20g flat + fractal relics or like 60g - 100g from pvp for 20x use kit, to max gross in only around 28g? Is that even worth the hassle to attune & infuse rings to maximize that profit considering the lose in resources & time you'll accrue while doing it? No, it is not.

Realistically players are looking at getting a mixture of rings/accessories to salvage, and more like 3 to 4 matrices per salvage kit use if you average the numbers, which is more like 14g to 15g per 20x Asc Kit uses vs. the absurd pricing of 20g + fractal relics or 60g - 100g for pvp asc kits. This is just designed wrong.

When you look at the profits made vs. cost to use, for Copper-Fed, Silver-Fed, or just Mystic Salvage Kits/Black Lion Kits, it all makes sense and they yield far more return in resources/gold than they require to use. These designs make sense. But the design behind Asc Salv Kit pricing doesn't make any sense at all. It is actually far more expensive to obtain the kit than what it will ever yield in resources salvaged.

Of course you could wait to find free Asc Kit drops in fractals, but I really don't prefer to rely on RNG for such things. Also, not all of us are so lucky and other just plainly not lucky at all. For example, I haven't found Asc Tools beyond 1x use hammers for just about a year now. I have this stock of random ascended rings/trinkets that is building up that I've been waiting to salvage when I find my next free 20x use kit, but it just doesn't ever happen anymore. Not sure if they lowered the drop rates on this stuff or what, but I'm kind of tired of relying on RNG for it. It's a bad design.

They just need to lower the pricing on this stuff. These prices aren't even "a little steep" they are outrageously overpriced for what they are worth.

The only way the super-gated pricing makes any sense to me vs. other kits is to deter people from accidentally salvaging ascended gear they wanted to keep, but that hardly justifies how overly steep it is to the point of being a waste of time and gold, as you've outlined in detail here. So yeah, I don't really get why it's like this to begin with...

Edited July 15, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are assuming that the kits are designed to return gold from salvaging ascended gear. You are incorrect.

There is a chance for some return, but overall the kits are merely designed to remove ascended at as little return as possible.

Meanwhile IF the kits were to return resources more reliably, say for example the insignia or inscription, their values would drop on the trading post below what they are now balancing out the increased availability from salvaging. You then would once again come here and complain that salvaging is not profitable. What, did you think you are the only one holding on to hundreds or even thousands of ascended items because salvaging them is not "worth it"?

Ascended salvaging makes sense in limited scenarios and is required in others. That's it.

If what you say is true and their design was to make salvaging asc gear a punishment, then I say it's still a bad design that goes against their own game philosophy.

Clearly their idea for this game is to give people something to do, something to work towards, so there is a reason to keep playing the game. Creating a bunch of dead end currency that can't be used, and a bunch of end-game gear that can't be exchanged for anything useful is bad design.

Let's say you're right and their idea for asc salv was not to generate liquid gold. Well I still say those kits are useless then. If you're right, then turn the Matrices account bound and make asc salv yield A LOT more of them or maybe even things like pristine fractal relics vs. gear that drops from fractals, so titles like "Fractal God" are more obtainable. I mean seriously, I should have had Fractal God a very very long time ago, years and years ago, but I use my resources from fractals to purchase & upgrade setups across 9 different characters with 8 templates each for both pve and wvw. I'll never have the resources to obtain Fractal God because I actually adjust my characters for optimization at every patch that occurs. These kits could be AT LEAST yielding account-bound non gold propagating resources to help out with this kind of problem.

Even if and when a player obtains Fractal God, what more is there to do? Well, at that point now you're getting a lot of asc ring/acc drops that are useless. Now you have no reason to obtain these kits to get Matrices because you don't need them for anything and the kits are too expensive to make selling matrices worth it. Now you're sitting at the end-game finding end-game gear with no way to use any of it for anything useful at all. They could at least make a Mystic Forge recipe where you throw in 4x asc rings and have a chance at getting something out of it. But no, they make sure you get to the end-game and then there's nothing left to do, nothing lucrative to do with this stuff. This is bad design and this is the exact point where pve players get bored.

Upon all of this, the prices of Matrices are actually too high right now. I imagine this is due to there being a LACK of asc salv kits in circulation. I remember reading the patch notes when they mentioned lowering the drop rates of asc salvage tools. This in conjunction with overpriced kits is inflating the prices of Matrices, and leaving players with bank tabs full of useless end-game rings & trinkets that can't be exchanged for anything useful. This is bad design. The way things worked before the asc kit drop rate nerf was perfect. The Matrices were worth roughly the same as ectos and there was always enough free asc salv drops to make sure you didn't have excess amounts of end-game gear stacking up.

They just need to either raise the drop rates for asc salv tools back to where it used to be, or very significantly lower the pricing for those kits. In my opinion they should do both.

But if you want to go by your statement and keep asc salvaging a punishment on your character's wallet, then at least make it worth using those asc salv kits. Again, in this case they should be dropping useful account bound resources that are worth maintaning player interest, that are worth the gold spent on those kits.

 

[disco.9302]

Ascended salvaging kits should be cheaper and not limited to fractals.

Consider that ascended gear drops from random bags/chests from WBs and containers from the pvp/wvw tracks yet the kits are limited to fractals.

Personally I have probably around 95 kits drop in all the time I used to do fractals (this includes the 20x ones so realistically this was 4 large stacks, 2 med and a bunch of singles). Comparatively, I still have a large amount of rings left over after using the majority of the kits and I've only salvaged ascended armour for the bare minimum of dark matter required for leggy armour/trinkets.

As well as shaving the cost I would say that kits should be added to other loot tables such as for WBs or metas where ascended gear is available. 

[Nico.9361]

1 minute ago, disco.9302 said:

Ascended salvaging kits should be cheaper and not limited to fractals.

Uhm, they are not limited to fractals. You can get them from raid, wvw AND pvp merchants.

[disco.9302]

2 minutes ago, NotTooFoolish.7412 said:

Uhm, they are not limited to fractals. You can get them from raid, wvw AND pvp merchants.

I'm aware of the merchants. However, as a drop, they are only found in fractals.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

If what you say is true and their design was to make salvaging asc gear a punishment, then I say it's still a bad design that goes against their own game philosophy.

Again with the punishment angle. No it's not punishment IF you are not rewarded or allowed to make a gain in some areas.

Quote

Clearly their idea for this game is to give people something to do, something to work towards, so there is a reason to keep playing the game. Creating a bunch of dead end currency that can't be used, and a bunch of end-game gear that can't be exchanged for anything useful is bad design.

Sometimes it is beneficial to implement such balance decisions if the goal is to allow higher rewards in other areas. Ascended gear is very high when looked at from an account value perspective, especially for new players.

Not allowing players to convert that account bound value into direct gold IS one of the reasons why these drops can exist in the first place.

 

Quote

Let's say you're right and their idea for asc salv was not to generate liquid gold. Well I still say those kits are useless then. If you're right, then turn the Matrices account bound and make asc salv yield A LOT more of them or maybe even things like pristine fractal relics vs. gear that drops from fractals, so titles like "Fractal God" are more obtainable. I mean seriously, I should have had Fractal God a very very long time ago, years and years ago, but I use my resources from fractals to purchase & upgrade setups across 9 different characters with 8 templates each for both pve and wvw. I'll never have the resources to obtain Fractal God because I actually adjust my characters for optimization at every patch that occurs. These kits could be AT LEAST yielding account-bound non gold propagating resources to help out with this kind of problem.

Even if and when a player obtains Fractal God, what more is there to do? Well, at that point now you're getting a lot of asc ring/acc drops that are useless. Now you have no reason to obtain these kits to get Matrices because you don't need them for anything and the kits are too expensive to make selling matrices worth it. Now you're sitting at the end-game finding end-game gear with no way to use any of it for anything useful at all. They could at least make a Mystic Forge recipe where you throw in 4x asc rings and have a chance at getting something out of it. But no, they make sure you get to the end-game and then there's nothing left to do, nothing lucrative to do with this stuff. This is bad design and this is the exact point where pve players get bored.

I have fractal god. Have had it for over 3 years by now. I too used my resources to gear over 10 characters before and during going for fractal god. In fact when I went for it, agony resistance was worth 5-6 times what it is now. Not sure what point you are trying to make.

There are mystic forge recipes where you can convert many of the ascended items and recuperate value. Even more now with EoD than before. The fact that that value is still low should tell you something: mainly that the developers take balancing the rewards and account bound rewards very seriously.

Implement the change you are suggesting and then: of what use are matrices to me at some point? Why should a perfectly trade-able and convertible resource be made account bound only because you want some extra pay-off for your ascended gear? You are intentionally messing with a working system because you don't like the current outcome when salvaging items which are not supposed to yield more reward.

Okay, let's go with your idea. You know what the next step is to balance the economy from Anets side? Reduce or even remove ascended direct drops. The fact that ascended items can directly drop is balanced by the fact the items are account bound AND salvaging them has a low return. All those things are interconnected.

Quote

Upon all of this, the prices of Matrices are actually too high right now. I imagine this is due to there being a LACK of asc salv kits in circulation. I remember reading the patch notes when they mentioned lowering the drop rates of asc salvage tools. This in conjunction with overpriced kits is inflating the prices of Matrices, and leaving players with bank tabs full of useless end-game rings & trinkets that can't be exchanged for anything useful. This is bad design. The way things worked before the asc kit drop rate nerf was perfect. The Matrices were worth roughly the same as ectos and there was always enough free asc salv drops to make sure you didn't have excess amounts of end-game gear stacking up.

Who says matrices are to high? On what basis are you making this claim? Stabilizing matrixes have been among some of the most stable items for over 6 years by now.

I'd like to hear you explain WHY matrixes are not correctly priced and ideally not based around just your opinion.

Those bank tabs full of rings: feel free to vendor them because that is exactly the value they have if you don't feel like salvaging them. Given those rings drop like leaves, that is also pretty much the exact value they have if you consider them gray loot.

Quote

They just need to either raise the drop rates for asc salv tools back to where it used to be, or very significantly lower the pricing for those kits. In my opinion they should do both.

But if you want to go by your statement and keep asc salvaging a punishment on your character's wallet, then at least make it worth using those asc salv kits. Again, in this case they should be dropping useful account bound resources that are worth maintaning player interest, that are worth the gold spent on those kits.

 

Or they go with their current approach:

they split rewards between account bound and freely trade-able rewards allowing them to keep account bound rewards higher if desired without causing massive inflation.

 

TL;DR:

account bound non convert-able rewards can be implemented without having a large effect on the games economy especially because there are mechanics in place which prevent turning those rewards into massive amounts of liquid gold or resources equivalent to that. Remove those mechanics and you either have a huge influx of liquidity into the game, or you have to remove those account bound rewards to prevent that.

Having account bound ascended loot is in place to help new players, not promote veteran players advantage even more by giving them even larger gains.

EDIT:

Just to drive point the home:

I literally finished all 16 gen3 legendaries today. That is on top of already being full leg with double weapons to nearly all types, most often gen1 and gen2. Do you have any idea of how much value ascended items of ANY type are to me or have been for the last 2 years? Pretty much 0. Now I can deal with this in 1 of 2 ways:

1. I can get upset that I have geared myself out of these items and now the only benefit I have at most is to stat change what I can and make research notes out of them.

or

2. be happy that these drops exist for newer players. Enjoy that I have literally 0 cost to any type of gear changing, switching, etc. and any and all loot I get I can freely convert to gold.

I'm going with option 2 because I really don't need another source of wealth generation to get me ahead of newer players. If you are at the point where ascended is coming out of your ears, you don't need those few extra silver but will benefit far more from having a stable economy.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Wolfb.7025]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Even if and when a player obtains Fractal God, what more is there to do?

Reading most your arguments it sounds like what you want is an cheaper Fractal God.

When someone gets fractal God you obtain 4 extra Encryptions which works for extra profit out of Fractals, the gap between cost and investment return is really big but it eventually pays off  (after a year or two doing daily T4s). If you only want profit you're better off just remaining in Frac Prodigy, or Champion at most.

Now if you want the prestige of having Fractal God, then work for it, thousands of players already got it with the actual cost.

 

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are assuming that the kits are designed to return gold from salvaging ascended gear. You are incorrect.

There is a chance for some return, but overall the kits are merely designed to remove ascended at as little return as possible.

Meanwhile IF the kits were to return resources more reliably, say for example the insignia or inscription, their values would drop on the trading post below what they are now balancing out the increased availability from salvaging. You then would once again come here and complain that salvaging is not profitable. What, did you think you are the only one holding on to hundreds or even thousands of ascended items because salvaging them is not "worth it"?

Ascended salvaging makes sense in limited scenarios and is required in others. That's it.

This is exactly what will happen, and as someone who runs CMs, I don't want the rewards to be nerfed further.

(btw, it's still worth it to buy asc kits from npc to salvage attuned rings).

[Cyninja.2954]

8 minutes ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

(btw, it's still worth it to buy asc kits from npc to salvage attuned rings).

 

True. I was just generalizing. Rings, while subject to rng, will come out ahead if attuned. Even more if they are pre infused (or infused if one has the resources and does not have to downgrade to globs or even vials).