LGBTQ...

[Tom.8029]

On 7/31/2022 at 12:30 PM, Albi.7250 said:

No you just repeatedly state that the inclusion of your issue in media(in this case same sex couples, gender etc) is the most important thing and failure to comply is equal to active hostility. With some vague explanation about feeling pride, while not giving a flying kitten about anything or anyone else. I just wanted to mention there are other people who feel unheard of or could need a sense "awareness, acceptance, and pride" like you put it. And including everyone all time is not feasible. A point you fail to see, as you honest to god think gender and sex are the most important thing in the world. 

You don't give a kitten. You care about yourself only, while playing the noble Victim. 

Yeah as they are all groups of people who often feel unheard of and ignored by society. But you can't just help yourself painting the situation as the noble oppressed defender who valiantly fights for his self interest.

No just the type of person you are needs to be included. All the time. Without exception, otherwise we are actively against you. Because your are apparently a self-centered brick.

You literally make zero sense. Have you ever heard of intersectionality?  Lgbtqia people face all of these issues plus discrimination over their gender identity and sexual preference.  We’re at a pivotal point in the United States where rights are in danger of being taken away and people feel like it’s not their problem if it doesn’t affect them personally. I don’t know why you’re acting so high and mighty right now acting like I’m playing a victim. I am the victim. Not too long ago people like me were imprisoned and sent to rehabilitation camps literally just for existing and it’s very easy to go back to times like that.  Hate crimes still happen all the time in the United States.  I can be legally killed in 22 states over something called the gay/trans panic defense. Look it up. In other countries, you can be killed by the government itself.   And like I said earlier, intersectionality is a thing. So many of lgbtqia people also experience poverty, racism, misogyny, anti-semitism, ablism, islamophobia. Lgbtqia issues permeate all races and ethnic backgrounds. They also transcend gender and economic class. So a push like this really benefits all because it can benefit people from many different walks of life. So no, it’s not just about me. 
 

The fact is we live in a world where people are discriminated against and marginalized. I think it’s ridiculous to ridicule someone for playing the victim when they ARE victimized. 
 

Literally all I said is that the recognition would be good. I never said it was the most important issue in the world. It’s tantamount to many other issues such as racism, poverty, et cetera. But this wasn’t the topic of this thread   You and some of the others are the ones who keep bringing it up…

Edited August 1, 2022 by Tom.8029
Facts and typos

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Welp. 

[greedywholesome.9081]

9 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Welp. 

 

All good, read through the entire thread and there were bits of factoids I didn't know about. I know 2 kids with same gender parents and they turned out to be kind, polite, and friendly. Maybe something like that can be incorporated in-game. 

This is all just fantasy, we play to have fun and get somewhat attached to NPCs for retention. 

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

On 7/31/2022 at 1:00 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Polls taken over the last decade have placed the younger generation (<20s) at ~40% LGBTQIA+, mostly bisexual.

 

polls by whom? gender studies people? The pseudo-scientists who just citate each other in a big circle and ignore established scientific facts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation

Doesn't really support your claim, now does it?

But I am a nice person, so I am going to tell you a secret:

a lot of boys go through a 'I wish I knew what it feels like to be a girl'. In former times, they would realize that this will never happen, shrug and go on with their lifes. Happy, 'cis gendered heteronormative' lifes. I am sure, plenty of girls of a certain age think the same. Are those trans? No, just curious about anatomical 'perks' they will never experience.

Also a lot of teenagers go through a 'I wonder what it feels like to have sex with a person of the same genitals'. Are those gays, lesbians or bi? No, it is again just curiosity. They get over it. Some experience it, most don't, the curiosity vanishes and the opposite sex is so much hotter anyway. But not today, oh no. Now if you even look at a same sex person and wonder what it feels like, you are labeled as lgbtqia+ or some other of the douzends labels out there. Newsflash: curiosity does not make someone gay. Or lesbian. Or bi.

At least that is how it was before the gender-idiots descended on societies. Now everyone who is not ultra-masculine or ultra-femine will be labeled as trans. Back in the 70s, 80s, 90, when you had same sex experience, it was just that. An experience. Not enough to label you as anything. If you kept to experience it - well at some point you would identify as gay, lesbian, bi, whatever. But today - everybody must label themselves, best make up some label, and then feel underrepresented, suppressed and depressed. I am sure big pharma is loving it.

Also a lot of real trans people do have problems with a lot of the 'its hipp to be non-binary/trans/whatever' crowd. For good reason. Being trans is not a joke. But a lot of jokers who grew up without guidance and are bombared by articles written by click-baiting journalists about the pseudo-science gender studies, think it is a 'choice', a life style.

It isn't.

Btw, the suicide rate of trans-sex-assignment operations is much much higher, than of the group who doesn't had the operation (yet). Should also give you some food for thought.

Anyway, I do not care if person is trans or not, gay or not, lesbian or not. If they are a good person, they are a good person. I think, we should be able to judge people by their behaviour. Not what they look like or what their sexual preferences are.

Edited August 2, 2022 by VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

On 8/1/2022 at 6:56 PM, Tom.8029 said:

You literally make zero sense. Have you ever heard of intersectionality?  Lgbtqia people face all of these issues plus discrimination over their gender identity and sexual preference.  We’re at a pivotal point in the United States where rights are in danger of being taken away and people feel like it’s not their problem if it doesn’t affect them personally. I don’t know why you’re acting so high and mighty right now acting like I’m playing a victim. I am the victim. Not too long ago people like me were imprisoned and sent to rehabilitation camps literally just for existing and it’s very easy to go back to times like that.  Hate crimes still happen all the time in the United States.  I can be legally killed in 22 states over something called the gay/trans panic defense. Look it up. In other countries, you can be killed by the government itself.   And like I said earlier, intersectionality is a thing. So many of lgbtqia people also experience poverty, racism, misogyny, anti-semitism, ablism, islamophobia. Lgbtqia issues permeate all races and ethnic backgrounds. They also transcend gender and economic class. So a push like this really benefits all because it can benefit people from many different walks of life. So no, it’s not just about me. 
 

The fact is we live in a world where people are discriminated against and marginalized. I think it’s ridiculous to ridicule someone for playing the victim when they ARE victimized. 
 

Literally all I said is that the recognition would be good. I never said it was the most important issue in the world. It’s tantamount to many other issues such as racism, poverty, et cetera. But this wasn’t the topic of this thread   You and some of the others are the ones who keep bringing it up…

well, and isn't it great living in countries that tolerate you?

But instead of saying 'ok, we are not hunted down, hanged, stoned or beaten to death, now work to change the rest of the world', you do what? Complain about OTHER problems, that are not really related to your sexual preference?

A lot of gays do really well. A lot of gays don't do well. The same is true for pretty much everyone else. Being homosexual does not exclude you from getting a good education. Or stops you from getting jobs. Wasting your time on complaining or getting depressed about things you can't influence, that is holding you down. Being sexually 'deviant' is, at least in 'the evil west' not really a factor. Unless you MAKE it one. Of course an ultra-religious group won't hire you, if you come in and declare that you are a grave sinner in their eyes. So what? They won't hire an atheist as well. My company is pretty much led by women through and through. No way for a man to have any kind of career. Do the men complain? Nope, we do our job, pocket our pay and keep our eyes open for better jobs. 

Maybe, just maybe, stop feeling like a victim, and going on working on change instead of complaining in forums would be a much more productive way to spend your time?

You know what happens to atheists in islamic countries? Do they complain everywhere? Do you think jews have it easy around the world? And it does not matter if that jew who is beaten up by some arseholes is gay or not. Not a factor. If some muslims hunt you down for being gay - they don't care about your skin colour or income. And the robber who shoots you down to steal your watch never cared about your sexual orientation, just the wealth you displayed.

Do have non-heterosexuals a lot of problems around the world? Yes. Is that ok? Of course not. It is deplorable. Is there racism? Yes. Is it ok? Very much no. Are people stuck in poverty? Yes. Should that change? would be great.

Complaining does not help. Virtue signaling in a game does not help. Doing something about it on social and political levels, does help. And I don't mean twitter or facebook shitstorms. Those come and go. You want change? Join a party. MAKE a party. Go out there, educate the uneducated. Be respectful and LISTEN to their arguments, then have your own ready. That helps. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

What I learnt from this thread: everyone is gay/bi and if you're not is because you're still in the closet.
 

[Tom.8029]

4 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

well, and isn't it great living in countries that tolerate you?

But instead of saying 'ok, we are not hunted down, hanged, stoned or beaten to death, now work to change the rest of the world', you do what? Complain about OTHER problems, that are not really related to your sexual preference?

A lot of gays do really well. A lot of gays don't do well. The same is true for pretty much everyone else. Being homosexual does not exclude you from getting a good education. Or stops you from getting jobs. Wasting your time on complaining or getting depressed about things you can't influence, that is holding you down. Being sexually 'deviant' is, at least in 'the evil west' not really a factor. Unless you MAKE it one. Of course an ultra-religious group won't hire you, if you come in and declare that you are a grave sinner in their eyes. So what? They won't hire an atheist as well. My company is pretty much led by women through and through. No way for a man to have any kind of career. Do the men complain? Nope, we do our job, pocket our pay and keep our eyes open for better jobs. 

Maybe, just maybe, stop feeling like a victim, and going on working on change instead of complaining in forums would be a much more productive way to spend your time?

You know what happens to atheists in islamic countries? Do they complain everywhere? Do you think jews have it easy around the world? And it does not matter if that jew who is beaten up by some arseholes is gay or not. Not a factor. If some muslims hunt you down for being gay - they don't care about your skin colour or income. And the robber who shoots you down to steal your watch never cared about your sexual orientation, just the wealth you displayed.

Do have non-heterosexuals a lot of problems around the world? Yes. Is that ok? Of course not. It is deplorable. Is there racism? Yes. Is it ok? Very much no. Are people stuck in poverty? Yes. Should that change? would be great.

Complaining does not help. Virtue signaling in a game does not help. Doing something about it on social and political levels, does help. And I don't mean twitter or facebook shitstorms. Those come and go. You want change? Join a party. MAKE a party. Go out there, educate the uneducated. Be respectful and LISTEN to their arguments, then have your own ready. That helps. 

Are you actually telling me I should be grateful that I’m not hunted down and killed like I would be in other countries?  I am still treated like a second class citizen and as less than Human in terms of my rights.  But I should be grateful. Literally don’t even respond to this thread any more you’re a joke and I’m not going to entertain your nonsense further. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Tom.8029

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Welp. 🤣

Edited August 3, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Taclism.2406]

On 8/1/2022 at 6:56 PM, Tom.8029 said:

Have you ever heard of intersectionality

I wish I didnt when I see its results 

[Kaukomieli.6740]

On OP's topic: would love to see men loving men on the center stage as well! I have my wlw representation already, in multiple forms, lucky and unlucky, and men deserve that too!

 

Like someone else said, pretty often wlw relationships tend to get more screentime and representation than mlm ones because they are easier to digest for certain subsections of the cishet male player crowd who balk at anything male and gay, no idea if that's the case here, consciously or unconsciously. It's a weird sort of privilege that kinda feels like a backhand in a way, when it's genuinely that, but idk about that here. Arenanet is doing a lot to include LGBTQ+ folks of all kinds in their world so I wouldn't think that it's a conscious effort to not portray mlm relationships in the main/central cast. I should hope anyway! 

 

Keeping my fingers crossed for the gays to get their center stage also! ^u^ Love your ideas!

Edited August 3, 2022 by Kaukomieli.6740

[greedywholesome.9081]

44 minutes ago, Kaukomieli.6740 said:

On OP's topic: would love to see men loving men on the center stage as well! I have my wlw representation already, in multiple forms, lucky and unlucky, and men deserve that too!

 

Like someone else said, pretty often wlw relationships tend to get more screentime and representation than mlm ones because they are easier to digest for certain subsections of the cishet male player crowd who balk at anything male and gay, no idea if that's the case here, consciously or unconsciously. It's a weird sort of privilege that kinda feels like a backhand in a way, when it's genuinely that, but idk about that here. Arenanet is doing a lot to include LGBTQ+ folks of all kinds in their world so I wouldn't think that it's a conscious effort to not portray mlm relationships in the main/central cast. I should hope anyway! 

 

Keeping my fingers crossed for the gays to get their center stage also! ^u^ Love your ideas!

 

Hey thanks. Yeah, it doesn't even have to be "official", or ceremonial, it can be one of those really tight friendships when both males feel there could be more to it but then never materializers. Unrequited love, in a way but with mutual attachment. I originally chose Charr because they are truly dedicated to the battlefield.  

[greedywholesome.9081]

8 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

What I learnt from this thread: everyone is gay/bi and if you're not is because you're still in the closet.
 

 

Well, I hope so. 
And that includes you, right? 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

53 minutes ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

 

Well, I hope so. 
And that includes you, right? 

It seems so. 

I thought I was heterosexual but turns out I was just repressed by my education and family. 

Don't know how to tell my SO tho..."Sorry honey, if you want to be with me you have to grow a mustache and a d*ck." 

Well it is what it is... 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

17 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

It seems so. 

I thought I was heterosexual but turns out I was just repressed by my education and family. 

Don't know how to tell my SO tho..."Sorry honey, if you want to be with me you have to grow a mustache and a d*ck." 

Well it is what it is... 

Indubitably.  Now that we've gotten that out of the way, we need to figure out that whole "Reproduction of the Human Species" thing since most people are now going to be kittening others of the same sex.  In Vitro of course is an option, but its apparently very expensive and there are limitations and other issues. 

Makes you wonder sometimes.....

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Indubitably.  Now that we've gotten that out of the way, we need to figure out that whole "Reproduction of the Human Species" thing since most people are now going to be kittening others of the same sex.  In Vitro of course is an option, but its apparently very expensive and there are limitations and other issues. 

Makes you wonder sometimes.....

I have nothing against the lgbt dudes/dudettes, I don't like however people shoving down their beliefs on others. 

You're gay, that's absolutely fine, but realise that there are heterosexual people and has nothing to do with education or whatever excuses you came up with, they're simply that way, deal with it. 

The other thing is the "pride" thing. There's nothing to be proud of of something you're born with. There's no pride in being black/white/indian/gay/hetero/bi/etc. You can only be proud of things you achieve as a human being. 

How ridiculous will it be if there was a "blue eyes pride march"? I mean it's a minority and discriminated even if positively. 

As for the game itself, sure, whatever floats your boat.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[greedywholesome.9081]

One of the comments hit the mark. It's not just the female same gender relationships, it's also the over representation of females over males. I'm not misogynistic so let's not go there. Matter of fact, I found the wedding, unrequited love, the kiss after finishing Scarlet off to be exciting. Story wise, I guess we need a stronger male lead regardless of sexual preference. 

 

Also, did you guys feel the lesbian vibe from Scarlet?

 

[greedywholesome.9081]

9 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

Are you actually telling me I should be grateful that I’m not hunted down and killed like I would be in other countries?  I am still treated like a second class citizen and as less than Human in terms of my rights.  But I should be grateful. Literally don’t even respond to this thread any more you’re a joke and I’m not going to entertain your nonsense further. 

 

Just know that this thread is a safe haven to vent

[The Greyhawk.9107]

1 hour ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

Also, did you guys feel the lesbian vibe from Scarlet?

 

In all seriousness, no.  I don't think she's capable of actual, healthy attraction to another person. Maybe her former self Ceara could have, though I never got a sense one way or another for her type of attraction, but as Scarlet Briar she's far too broken and in her own head to still be actually able to feel that way about anyone.  Scarlet's the kind of megalomaniacal psychopath whose twisted grasp of reality and whose narcissism might cause them to view them self as being the only real person.

Edited August 3, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[DragonMoon.6098]

I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned it but there is a male NPC talking about his wedding (gay couple) near the heart by Soul's Vendetta Waypoint in Jahai. I hear him every time I complete the heart and every time I'm like "Oh, I wonder if he ever got to his wedding!?!"

In regards to the main NPC's...I really hope they leave them single (other than Kas and Jory of course as that ship has sailed). They don't need to express preferences as it would be nice for them to be left open for any fan shipping players may have. Ship them all as gay. Ship them all as bi. Ship them all joining in on one giant cuddle puddle of love. Ship whoever you want with your player character. Ship whatever your heart's desire. The more official pairing off of characters the writers do, the less options there are for fan shipping. So for me, it's good that they leave things open. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098

[Gryxis.6950]

I really don't care too much if they do more gay men representation in the future (tho i would enjoy it still), but I do hope if they do it'll be better than "remember this unimportant character no one cared about and died 10 years ago ? Well he was actually gay".

[Tom.8029]

5 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I have nothing against the lgbt dudes/dudettes, I don't like however people shoving down their beliefs on others. 

You're gay, that's absolutely fine, but realise that there are heterosexual people and has nothing to do with education or whatever excuses you came up with, they're simply that way, deal with it. 

The other thing is the "pride" thing. There's nothing to be proud of of something you're born with. There's no pride in being black/white/indian/gay/hetero/bi/etc. You can only be proud of things you achieve as a human being. 

How ridiculous will it be if there was a "blue eyes pride march"? I mean it's a minority and discriminated even if positively. 

As for the game itself, sure, whatever floats your boat.

Hi, so there are a few issues I would like to address. You talk about having other people’s beliefs forced upon you. Heteronormative and cisgender people heavily outnumber LGBTQIA+ people.  This is to be expected, as the bulk of people must have come from somewhere of course, sexual reproduction. Sure, that’s good, fine.  But LGBTQIA+ people are never going to influence your rights as a Human being. Heteronormative and cisgender people also control a bulk of the power to influence policy, so heterosexual ideals ARE influencing how we can live our lives.  Just think, when you feel like these people are heaping their beliefs upon you, LGBTQIA+ people experience that daily all the time through media, social interactions, just by living our lives. But the key difference is that these mere opinions actually have the power to affect your life and they are not just beliefs. 
 

You also talk about pride.  If you’re referring to the Pride movement, the movement began as an outcry against police brutality in New York City in the 1960s. LQBTQIA+ people were being arrested, beaten, killed, literally just for existing.  This still happens today, but under the guise of policy that has been burying marginalized people for years now. 
 

I think there is some degree of pride involved in the notion that you made it this far having the odds stacked against you from the very beginning. Also it helps because suicide rates among people in the LGBTQIA+ community are high and these people need to see that who they are is okay and nothing to be ashamed about. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

Hi, so there are a few issues I would like to address. You talk about having other people’s beliefs forced upon you. Heteronormative and cisgender people heavily outnumber LGBTQIA+ people.  This is to be expected, as the bulk of people must have come from somewhere of course, sexual reproduction. Sure, that’s good, fine.  But LGBTQIA+ people are never going to influence your rights as a Human being. Heteronormative and cisgender people also control a bulk of the power to influence policy, so heterosexual ideals ARE influencing how we can live our lives.  Just think, when you feel like these people are heaping their beliefs upon you, LGBTQIA+ people experience that daily all the time through media, social interactions, just by living our lives. But the key difference is that these mere opinions actually have the power to affect your life and they are not just beliefs. 
 

You also talk about pride.  If you’re referring to the Pride movement, the movement began as an outcry against police brutality in New York City in the 1960s. LQBTQIA+ people were being arrested, beaten, killed, literally just for existing.  This still happens today, but under the guise of policy that has been burying marginalized people for years now. 
 

I think there is some degree of pride involved in the notion that you made it this far having the odds stacked against you from the very beginning. Also it helps because suicide rates among people in the LGBTQIA+ community are high and these people need to see that who they are is okay and nothing to be ashamed about. 

I'm not talking about rights. I'm talking about the idea that everyone is gay or bi and only the failed education prevent people from assuming so, which is obviously false. Hence why I said, "some people are heterosexual, deal with it". 

What do you mean the about the opposite, do you mean simply seeing a movie or whatever with a straight couple for example or actually the media saying homosexuality is wrong? The first one isn't forcing anything, the second yes and clearly wrong, although I can assure you at least in my country it doesn't happen, ever. 

For the pride thing just call it, I don't know, like "lgtb lives matter". This is absolutely fine. 

Pride on the other hand is not. Because you can't be proud of something you did nothing to accomplished such as being gay. 

[Zola.6197]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 “Pride” is the correct term because people have been shunned, shamed, ostracized, bullied into suicide, and even killed for being LGBTQ+ for decades around the world. It’s called “Pride” because it’s a public, open declaration to defy the shame/abuse queer peoples have received from society at large. That is why people are “proud” to be queer - because we have been told throughout our lives that we should not be. That we should hate ourselves, or that we’re dangerous, disgusting, or perverse.

 

It’s getting better, but inclusion of LGBTQ+ characters in media being such a hot button issue shows we still have a long way to go, and that “Pride” is still very necessary.

[Tom.8029]

14 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I'm not talking about rights. I'm talking about the idea that everyone is gay or bi and only the failed education prevent people from assuming so, which is obviously false. Hence why I said, "some people are heterosexual, deal with it". 

What do you mean the about the opposite, do you mean simply seeing a movie or whatever with a straight couple for example or actually the media saying homosexuality is wrong? The first one isn't forcing anything, the second yes and clearly wrong, although I can assure you at least in my country it doesn't happen, ever. 

For the pride thing just call it, I don't know, like "lgtb lives matter". This is absolutely fine. 

Pride on the other hand is not. Because you can't be proud of something you did nothing to accomplished such as being gay. 

I don’t believe everyone is LGBTQ+. I believe those that are, are born that way. No one is trying to turn straight people gay. If someone is “turned” gay, then they were never straight to begin with. It’s not something that is taught.  Just like how being gay is not a choice. People have tried to turn gay people straight, though; and by some pretty horrific and gruesome means. 
 

And I said it before, I’ll say it again. Growing up in a world that seeks to dispose of you IS an accomplishment.  Some gay people do well, despite the odds, sure fine. But that does not mean the system is okay.

 

Things don’t need to be boisterous and in your face to be oppressive. Subtle every day things can be discriminatory. It doesn’t need to be blatantly obvious for it to be oppression. But it IS there. And one of the ways it is there is through subtlety in the media.

 

Portrayals of heterosexual norms in the media is fine. But if an LGBTQ+ person sees that enough and has no exposure to anyone like themselves, they will feel out of place and alone, unable to relate to anyone. That is why these things are not as benign as you might think.  Over time, such a thing could lead to depression and even suicide. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

45 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 “Pride” is the correct term because people have been shunned, shamed, ostracized, bullied into suicide, and even killed for being LGBTQ+ for decades around the world. It’s called “Pride” because it’s a public, open declaration to defy the shame/abuse queer peoples have received from society at large. That is why people are “proud” to be queer - because we have been told throughout our lives that we should not be. That we should hate ourselves, or that we’re dangerous, disgusting, or perverse.

 

It’s getting better, but inclusion of LGBTQ+ characters in media being such a hot button issue shows we still have a long way to go, and that “Pride” is still very necessary.

"lgbt accomplished rights pride." there you go - something that makes sense. Proud of being gay doesn't make any. 

Demanding lgbt characters to be portraited in the media is the wrong approach imo, you shouldn't demand it, it should be portraited because it is right to do so and fits the narrative(regarding movies/books/whatever). But again I'm talking from a country which is superliberal regarding society and anything anti-lgbt is rightly mocked upon. 

In the case of USA I guess its a different story because of all the trumptards garbage going on. 

 

@Tom now we're on the same page and I agree. 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735