banner thoughts

[Lighter.5631]

Utilities the banners are getting are meh.

finally getting what other classes are getting.

but getting one aegis and some barrier every 30 second with cast time, feels meh.

stability and super speed every 30 second with cast time also feels very meh for pvp and wvw.

 

defense need to also apply stability on top of aegis and barrier.

and tactic needs to apply quickness to matter.

 

 

and the boons they apply basically not matter, immovable 360 radius is none, not like facet.

 

no stunbreak is meme.

 

the only thing that will determine anything

is

how much damage discpline and strength does. 

 

if it does like 200 300 damage, then the entire set will be meme.

 

i give 5/10, seems like getting something, but just getting minimum of what others are getting, but at least it's something.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

really comes down to the numbers they didn't preview. If the barrier on Defense is high enough, then it will have value even on a 30s CD.

Neither it Tactics being a stunbreak is a missed opportunity though. They really should make one of them an AoE stunbreak.

Strength and Discipline should push 2k on a crit, Discipline should have 6-8 stacks of bleed, I'd accept lower strike damage on it if it has a higher amount of bleed stacks.

One thing that would really make this rework of banners perfect is if the on summon effects happen around the warrior at the summon location. Even better would be if the pulses happened around the warrior and the banner as well.

[Lighter.5631]

41 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

really comes down to the numbers they didn't preview. If the barrier on Defense is high enough, then it will have value even on a 30s CD.

Neither it Tactics being a stunbreak is a missed opportunity though. They really should make one of them an AoE stunbreak.

Strength and Discipline should push 2k on a crit, Discipline should have 6-8 stacks of bleed, I'd accept lower strike damage on it if it has a higher amount of bleed stacks.

One thing that would really make this rework of banners perfect is if the on summon effects happen around the warrior at the summon location. Even better would be if the pulses happened around the warrior and the banner as well.

 

i doubt they will give a huge amount of barrier.

the un published numbers are often disappointing.

even if the barrier is 3k, it's still not worth taking over bullcharge or endure pain or shout.

i doubt it will even be 3k tho, maybe like 1k-2k something.

again bullcharge and endure pain scales infinitely, barrier does not.

warrior depends so much on these to even live, outside of shout spams.

 

same goes for banner damage.

if strength banner damage is less then 3.5k crit on power build then it would be pretty useless.

same goes for discipline, if damage is less then 2k and or bleed is less then 8.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Lonecap.4105]

Yeah I initially read the changes too quickly and then reality hit when I saw those boons won't pulse. So now we're getting 50% of the original boon uptime... for what? A few seconds of initial boons? Seems weak.

[Lighter.5631]

featherfoot grace is 35 second stunbreak with super speed and resistance.

yet it's garbage and not used for average power spellbreaker builds.

i doubt the numbers of banner will be higher then featherfoot as one is AoE and one is single target.

 

which means it's gonna be worse. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

 

i doubt they will give a huge amount of barrier.

the un published numbers are often disappointing.

even if the barrier is 3k, it's still not worth taking over bullcharge or endure pain or shout.

i doubt it will even be 3k tho, maybe like 1k-2k something.

Depends. It'll be AoE for your team though so the value is more than what personal sustain it gives you.

4 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

same goes for banner damage.

if strength banner damage is less then 3.5k crit on power build then it would be pretty useless.

same goes for discipline, if damage is less then 2k and or bleed is less then 8.

Yeah, again I share this concern. At the same time, Strength being a ranged AoE Daze will be very useful for Spellbreaker. Discipline with Leg Specialist will also be good. Let's just hope that these trait interactions don't hold back the new versions of the skills.

 

 

5 minutes ago, ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

Yeah I initially read the changes too quickly and then reality hit when I saw those boons won't pulse. So now we're getting 50% of the original boon uptime... for what? A few seconds of initial boons? Seems weak.

The summoned boons do not pulse, but the current pulsed boons will still pulse.

[Lighter.5631]

10 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Depends. It'll be AoE for your team though so the value is more than what personal sustain it gives you.

 

doesnt matter tho, for pvp, the skills has to function on yourself alone first then be calculated for your team.

if you taking a skills making yourself weaker then it's not worth taking.

all the other specs taking skill that benefit self, but with aoe built in as base line.

 

for example, poison cloud was taken because it is good on harb alone, and the group utility really is bonus.

same goes for guard absolute resolve, they needed the condition cleanse, the group condition cleanse is a built in bonus.

 

warrior is basically the only class which if you wanted to be better in team fight, you will be garbage alone. but then if you are garbage alone, you are just gonna get ganged so hard and deleted in a 5v5 teamfight. that's why warrior never able to teamfight except that 3 times in 10 years where they nerfed enough damage to make heal war unkillable.

 

if you taking a group utility you have to live first, without endure pain or shout spam or evade, warrior is basically dead in a teamfight, not matter what banner you drop.

 

and 360 radius immoveable? on top of a heavy cast time? i doubt it will ever hit anyone with current move speed.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

They're reducing the cast times from the current 1s by "0.2s" whatever that means. Cast times are in increments of 0.25s so that just means they're going to be 3/4s cast times.  Regardless, we'll see the final numbers next Tuesday. I'm more optimistic than you, but if the numbers are too low it'll be DOA.

[JTGuevara.9018]

2 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

Utilities the banners are getting are meh.

finally getting what other classes are getting.

but getting one aegis and some barrier every 30 second with cast time, feels meh.

stability and super speed every 30 second with cast time also feels very meh for pvp and wvw.

 

defense need to also apply stability on top of aegis and barrier.

and tactic needs to apply quickness to matter.

 

 

and the boons they apply basically not matter, immovable 360 radius is none, not like facet.

 

no stunbreak is meme.

 

the only thing that will determine anything

is

how much damage discpline and strength does. 

 

if it does like 200 300 damage, then the entire set will be meme.

 

i give 5/10, seems like getting something, but just getting minimum of what others are getting, but at least it's something.

 

It's a good base for something better, nothing more. The reason I say this is very simple: banners have actual utility by design. The mechanical changes don't make it a personal liability to take. It's good to not have to carry them anymore. You've also pointed out the personal liability yourself, that warrior has to break an arm and leg just to help others. I don't think this is the case this time. For the first time in the seven years I've played this class, I can now put them on the skill bar.

Regardless, we will all see when this comes out on the 2nd.

[devastoscz.9851]

Honestly, the real problem with banners is that you need to stack on them to have the effect. Even worse now with the 360 radius. For example, in WvW banners are basically useless with all the movement that goes on. Even if you use them for precast on stack, the first necro wells just turned your "omg 45 seconds of X boon" to dust, or even worse converted it to some nasty condi. 

Boon reapplication is KEY, which is why Firebrand is so kitten powerful. Aegis, stability, protection, cleansing, resistance, resolution, healing....all mobile and on-demand.

[firedragon.8953]

I think design-wise, it's actually pretty good.
Carrying banners on your back or something would have been better, but I can see why Anet went this route since it is easier to implement (don't need additional art assets, etc.). Simple is good.

44 minutes ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

the real problem with banners is that you need to stack on them to have the effect. Even worse now with the 360 radius

You sure about that? Having banners basically stack the buffs on people and ramp up duration over a shorter period of time so that everyone "carries" their own boons rather than the warrior having to carry them is fine. Only downside I can imagine is for those who wanted the "battle banner-wielding warriors" fantasy, or as you mention they are stripped. I'd prefer to see 500 radial range to offer more of a "boon space", but it's obvious that these banners are better designed that the current garbage ones we have.

11 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

Utilities the banners are getting are meh.

finally getting what other classes are getting.

This is a pretty negative outlook. Warrior getting what other classes are getting is important! Remember, Anet is doing away with unique boons/buffs so that professions can be much more interchangeable. Not saying I really agree with this "philosophy" but it is what it is now, and so YES we finally get what other classes get. That's good! I'm pretty sure we now have extra condi cleanse too if we combo the "support banner" with a "offensive banner".

How good the banners really are will depend on numbers with initial boons. A couple stacks of stab, 3000 - 4000 base barrier, etc. would be competitive. If we can get 100% quick uptime with just 2 banners and still pump out about 28k dps in PvE, then it's good! Banners were never great in WvW, being able to provide effects like group aegis, AoE CC, group superspeed, resistance, etc. is pretty good in my opinion. It isn't perfect, but it is definitely an improvement over what we have now (not hard to do, obviously), and even an improvement over old banners (if we disregard their unique buffs because that's now no-no, even though Guardian has signet sharing.. o.o). Tweaking these numbers "should" be much easier for Anet then redesigning banners themselves.

Also let's remember, if banners are "too good" then we will be expected to always take them, locking us into Bannerslave again. Balance really is key here, too bad and they are just trash. Being on par with other professions is what I hope Anet is going for.

Edit: Let's pray these really hit the mark, so then Anet can get around to addressing things like 100 Blades, Rush, etc.

Edited July 29, 2022 by firedragon.8953

[Lucentfir.7430]

13 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

featherfoot grace is 35 second stunbreak with super speed and resistance.

yet it's garbage and not used for average power spellbreaker builds.

i doubt the numbers of banner will be higher then featherfoot as one is AoE and one is single target.

 

which means it's gonna be worse. 

Featherfoot's Grace is actually really close to being solid option, it just needs 5s of Resolution imho to help with condi damage management.

[Lighter.5631]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:40 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They're reducing the cast times from the current 1s by "0.2s" whatever that means. Cast times are in increments of 0.25s so that just means they're going to be 3/4s cast times.  Regardless, we'll see the final numbers next Tuesday. I'm more optimistic than you, but if the numbers are too low it'll be DOA.

yea, 0.2 second is like what. 4/5 seconds? 

3/4 is still pretty bad. needs to be at least 1/2 for start matter. specially for barrier skills and skills with only 360 radius.

also concerned with after cast and pre cast timer.

often warrior skills get heavy pre cast and after cast making the skill cast time way longer then described

[Lighter.5631]

On 7/29/2022 at 12:30 AM, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Featherfoot's Grace is actually really close to being solid option, it just needs 5s of Resolution imho to help with condi damage management.

how is it close, giving 5s of resolution is like buffing this skill by at least 30% lol.

it's no where close to endure pain or shake it off, even with 5 seconds of resolution

[Lucentfir.7430]

7 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

how is it close, giving 5s of resolution is like buffing this skill by at least 30% lol.

it's no where close to endure pain or shake it off, even with 5 seconds of resolution

 Just for the sole fact that it can give you more condition damage mitigation via resolution. You know the thing lost with the resistance change. It'll also have some synergy with Defense minor traits too which gives more damage reduction (should you go that route )

35s stunbreak with condi damage reduction via resolution, resistance which let's you strike through blind and weakness, and superspeed all at 5s, not to mention can be further Increased with some boon duration(except superspeed).  That makes it a solid option over balanced stance and EP should you need a more condi centric management utility.  Since you already pidgeon hole'd into taking SiO anyways.

[Dadnir.5038]

Well, you should look at the bright side of things, having the extra boon/condi/damage when you place the banner is still better than having these things on the last tic of the Well (Just imagine needing to wait 15s to get these effect... 🤣 ).

Edited August 1, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[devastoscz.9851]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:09 PM, firedragon.8953 said:

You sure about that? Having banners basically stack the buffs on people and ramp up duration over a shorter period of time so that everyone "carries" their own boons rather than the warrior having to carry them is fine. Only downside I can imagine is for those who wanted the "battle banner-wielding warriors" fantasy, or as you mention they are stripped. I'd prefer to see 500 radial range to offer more of a "boon space", but it's obvious that these banners are better designed that the current garbage ones we have.

"Better than" does not equate actually good. Is it better that everyone carries their own boons from the banner to the fight? Sure, I guess. Would it be more balanced if they didn't have to? Imo, yes. Battle banner wielding warrior fantasy would be somewhat on par to Firebrand if you really think about it.

And I only compare it to FB because that's what's being and is going to continue being taken because of its busted versatility and MOBILE boon machine as a support.

[firedragon.8953]

9 hours ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

And I only compare it to FB because that's what's being and is going to continue being taken because of its busted versatility and MOBILE boon machine as a support.

I'd argue that we are not meant to compete with firebrand when it comes to support. The problem is that firebrand can boon everyone to Narnia while still dealing lots of damage. We just need to be viable with quickness and some utility while dealing damage so we CAN supply it in a group if it's absolutely needed.

In lore Guardian is suppose to be a defensive support class, warrior is suppose to be a threat. Real problem is Guardian is both, warrior is neither. Warrior was designed to gain most of it's utility through weapons (weapon master) but since these skills have mostly remained static (or have gotten worse) and are outdated, we offer little in terms of utility comparatively and aren't even really competitive with damage, even if stationary BSw can bench high on a static golem...means very little.

The current implementation is "better" than the previous and current from a design standpoint. I don't disagree that it shouldn't be it's "final" implementation, but I feel at least it's going in somewhat of a correct direction. In reality I'd rather carry banners with me (without replacing skills), I've even made posts about it, but I'd rather have this improvement now than being stuck any longer with the current banners.

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

The gobblers will jump the gun and say "but guys you are coping, just like how perma Resistance banner warr was super good!" as if that wasnt the clunkiest thing ever for some weird resistance application that basically could be ripped immediately. 

In Comp, pvP has no room for a defensive warrior, Shoutsworn needs shouts and so does any iteration of Healbreaker. Maybe it could drop OOM for a banner, but odds are it won't see play much due to how warr behaves in current pvp. 

As for WvW. Tank SpB focuses on strips so it usually stacks stances and stunbreaks. Support SpB needs the shouts for cleanses and Break Enchantments. Balanced Stance is a must have, some play FGJ for might and more cleanse with Trooper Rune. Stomp for the very strip-focused players. No room for any banner here. 

DPS SpB is the only warrior that may want to utilize Banner of Strength for a ranged CC with some dmg and might. But you need to drop your personal stunbreak, as Stomp is by all means focused on disrupting, not stunbreaking. So good luck with that, unless you have a god firebrand that chases you and you alone through the battlefield. 

Berserker is very reliant on Berserker stance to negate weakness ans blinds and balanced stance to pull off Arc Dividers. No room there and signet of fury is non-negotiable. 

Core plaued with Phalanx and the new Empower needs Signet of Fury like zerker for T3 Arcing Slices and the buff. You also use stomp even if you dont strip for disruption. Again, same issue. You need to sacrifice your personal stunbreak to consider running a banner and with no banner in the heal skill you can't even do that. And even then, in zerg fights Defiant Stance is just better as it allows for no loss of dps uptime. 

 

So with such a radius, such a function and these measly boons, I predict that outside of a niche build abusing a banner, they will not be any good outside of PvE where boon competition is even greater. 

I predict that Strength will be the most meta for the ranged CC, then tactics and defense will be interchangable on some niche build. Discipline seems to suck hard, maybe it will be ok? in some weird condi roamer. 

Elite will remain where it is.