Mech haters - Do you really want harder builds to be stronger?

[The Boz.2038]

6 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

It pretty much looks like you haven't even read the post you responded to. Like I said power rifle mechanist does not "tick all the boxes" and I already mentioned that the criticism would have been more valid if we focus in on various support builds. Whis however doesn't change the fact that there would have been no real issue as long as different builds are required to do different things. The rest is just balancing builds which fall into the same category against each other. No matter how much people complain, unless "one build does it all", there is no "oppression" solely because one profession / e-spec can do multiple things. The power rifle mechanist is not taking the spot of [insert support here] and vice versa.

It is you who missed the point.

[Tails.9372]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

It is you who missed the point.

Not really, you just didn't make one that actually relates to what I said.

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Not really, you just didn't make one that actually relates to what I said.

Because YOU MISSED THE POINT of the guy you were replying to.

[Tails.9372]

12 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Because YOU MISSED THE POINT of the guy you were replying to.

Nope, he explicitly stated what his issue is and even gave an example. Your objection to my response has nothing to do with anything he said, "HAM lessening the oppressive impact of the HFB" does not take away from his critisism of "we could have an entire meta of everyone just playing one spec". It's really just you who didn't get the point of the comment I've responded to.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Tails.9372

[The Boz.2038]

4 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Nope, he explicitly stated what his issue is and even gave an example. Your objection to my response has nothing to do with anything he said, "HAM lessening the oppressive impact of the HFB" does not take away from his critisism of "we could have an entire meta of everyone just playing one spec". It's really just you who didn't get the point of the comment I've responded to.

Sure thing, bub.

You still missed the point.

[Sunchaser.9854]

16 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

No matter how much people complain, unless "one build does it all", there is no "oppression" solely because one profession / e-spec can do multiple things. The power rifle mechanist is not taking the spot of [insert support here] and vice versa.

 

✅ Instant dps?

✅ Condi level power dps?

(35k-37k instant dps vs 32k-37k Condi with 10-20 second ramp/clipping/ inability to have 90% of it's dot based dmg fall off if 1 add that needs to be killed in 1 second, needs to live over 7.5 seconds for a 15 second dot to do 50% of it's first applied dps?)

 ✅ Can be stacked to 40-90% of the 10 man raid group, and still provide nearly/pretty much every core raid boon like 100% alac, self quickness(jade dynamo), also teleport with +25% move speed just for fun i can assure you other classes weren't even asking about, Have self regeneration signets other classes aren't even talking about. While A 9 man vindicator group is just gonna be a group with 0 quickness or alacity?  ✅ 

 

Will you be asked. "What class do you play? We need Alac dps." "I play willbender!" "WTH is that? Kicked" if you play a mechanist?

Far as i've seen, we've had 4-7 mechanist groups where someone picked healer and they made the healer.. DPS.. because the mechanist could provide 100% alacity. 

 

As far as take every spot.. You guys realize that if you literally stack 9 vindicators or 9 boonless dps supports right. Not even guardians are too thrilled with a 4-9 mechanist for Self quickness / self might / Self barrier / Self alacity / Self teleports / Self health regeneration / 2 dodges comp next to 1 firebrand who's happy to be 1/10 but still has 2 meme or unviable specs.. And this is a Balance dev under the guise of a "diversity patch" that turned at least a warrior in there into a mechanist? 

 

I mean my class is better than most but i still hear horror stories even of. "I did it, i finally benched 37k on the golem with insert "obscure piano spec that 95% of players can't play right, i can't play to play it!"

Raid leader: "So what spec do you play?"

Them: "XYZ"
Raid leader: "Eww, i don't even know what spec that is, 95% of people don't even play it right above 10k dps. I don't care if it gets 37k dps for 2% of the population. You're kicked, The mechanists im stacking 4-9 of can afk to 28-32k dps while providing might and barrier and self quickness and 1 firebrand is there just to provide the fury and quickness boons that are the only boons the mechanist's can't poop out in a stack of 9." 

 

So when you design a pyramid around 1 selfish dps needing 3-4 support/dps to provide their boons, and 1 dps can be stacked 4-9 times, it's pretty unsastifying to see class balance be neglected to go 10% mechanist to 40-90% mechanist as everyone and their dog abandons their other characters to afk a mechanist in raids.. And knowing that dps meters are regularly 9/10 topped by people who when asked about their rotation vs another player's 30 button cycle.. Will go. "i was top dps?? really? All i do is press 4 buttons. I was 2k dps a month ago but people told me to delete my ele because it was so bad. i want to play them again, could you plz carry me on your main plz? just because i press 4 buttons to do 30k dps doesn't mean my ele does 4k dps for 4 buttons. plz. i can't defeat basic elites for hero points, plz help me." 🙄

 

What else does the mech need to do that's free on top. Does it need to synthesize legendary equipment from thin air next. Have automatic teleports to all raid bosses, start with autoloot installed and a autogrind while offline mode added to it next to be considered. Maybe slightly a problem for class diversity to be 10% of the classes taking over 40-90% of raid spots(?) I mean.. If anet didn't want to design classes to be piano specs who had to solve calculus to pass 20k-37k rotations with memorized energy clips..

Maybe they should have like.. Designed 90% of their game.. to not be the piano specs they designed(??).. Because they are the devs that literally make the game and can control the numbers and could just as easily slide the numbers on each underperforming pug random to do 10k-20k mins instead of whatever these 2-8k trashers in the 50-80% median are.. And holy crap i don't even know what the 4 0.5k-2k dps "dps players" under the 15k-20k dps healer are doing either. 

 

Do you guys look at public group stats with arc dps by the way? it's a whole lot worse than a 37k-40k gap.. There's like literally seas of people who do 0.5k-4k for the bottom 50% dps of open world metas on soo won. There'll be like only 12 people in a average pug sea of 50 people who even read above the 10k mark sometimes. and 9 will be 9 afk mechanists in the 20k-35k range. the other 3 will be like..

One normal player who's good at their class in the 20k-30k range usually. maybe a 15k-20k warrior still holding out. and then like 38/50 players doing 4k-0.5k dps damage.. or 0.2k dps.. at lvl 80 in EOD. 

[Tails.9372]

52 minutes ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

 Instant dps?

✅ Condi level power dps?

(35k-37k instant dps vs 32k-37k Condi with 10-20 second ramp/clipping/ inability to have 90% of it's dot based dmg fall off if 1 add that needs to be killed in 1 second, needs to live over 7.5 seconds for a 15 second dot to do 50% of it's first applied dps?)

 ✅ Can be stacked to 40-90% of the 10 man raid group, and still provide nearly/pretty much every core raid boon like 100% alac, self quickness(jade dynamo), also teleport with +25% move speed just for fun i can assure you other classes weren't even asking about, Have self regeneration signets other classes aren't even talking about. While A 9 man vindicator group is just gonna be a group with 0 quickness or alacity?  ✅ 

"Instant dps" is not a point for anything nor is it something people are specifically asking for. The box it actually hits is just "DPS" which is the whole point of the build I mentioned so ofc. it does.

"Condi level power dps?" not much of a point either considering how busty some condis have become. Also, based on the encounter it's still subject to enemy toughness which is something condi builds don't have to deal with.

"Can be stacked to 40-90% of the 10 man raid group" which applies to "DPS" in general.

"and still provide nearly/pretty much every core raid boon like 100% alac, self quickness(jade dynamo)!" Ok, that's a lot of nonsense right here. The standard power rifle mechanist build only applies might and some furry (the later of which only with 50% uptime) and that's it. The self quickness from jade dynamo is also largely inconsequential as that's what the group support is there for.

The re-sustain on power rifle mech is the last thing I would try to highlight. Harbinger has more of it in one of their minor traits than that build has as a whole.

"While A 9 man vindicator group is just gonna be a group with 0 quickness or alacity?" A 9 man team running the standard power rifle build is not going to have any alac either and berly has 40% uptime on the former.

In the end you still have to run other builds to do different things and yet you're still acting as if all mechanists have access to all of their traits at once.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

Balance should make every class viable. Not make one class stack replace 9 and do every job better for fractions of effort. 

Sure, but let's be clear here ... the ability to stack mechanists is related to things like aggro trading with bots and barrier stacking. The effort to get DPS with rifle power build has nothing to do with that. 

I have no doubt that Anet is watching how stacking mechanists affects the game; they are VERY sensitive to that and we have seen multiple specs affected by stacking abilities. But if Anet is smart about it, any changes related to stacking will be LIMITED to the things that enable it. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Sunchaser.9854]

You do realize the other specs... Have 10 second weapon swaps on rotations as well as stance swaps and that any half decent player can extremely, trivially easily keep a weapon swap right?

 

The "incredible difficulty of finding a second weapon swap"... Is literally the snowcrows rotation that I have to do to drain 75 energy in under 10 seconds or else my ability proc will not provide me with energy on swap unless I am below 10 energy. Otherwise using the ability to provide 50% alacrity will literally cancel out half of the energy you require for a renegade rotation as well as the condi runes which literally only reach the benchmark performances that beat afk mechanists if you use them on cool down every 10 seconds while memorizing a snowcrows energy optimization routine to provide alacrity while reaching 97-100% of the benchmark to tie. You can delay it 2-3 seconds without it, but then at 70-80% ability use, it's no longer beating the afk benchmark without a literal set. Hence your inconvenience to switch stats is literally other people's 10 second dps rotation and you also get your specs weapon for free so you shouldn't complain...

 

Guess how easy it is to get a spec weapon for 30 hp vs find a viper mace for 30g and 500 weaponsmithing to add onto the 500 armorsmithing and 450 huntsman I needed to craft my viper affix and perform stat swaps with a ingredient list of 200 items vs... Using a weapon that literally drops for free when you train the spec and probably has a cheap eod spec collection achieve too.... 

 

Your guys are complaining about applying the effort that other classes do as 10 second rotations like its the greatest effort in your life.. I've already seen 5 mechanists join and offer three spec choices they had the gear for at once. Dps, alac dps, heal alac dps.. And then they kicked the old healer because they had alac heal dps.. You guys literally can consume 90% of raid roles while providing all boons with 1 firebrand and you're complaining you have to occasionally change... Weapons.. and you don't keep +25% movement speed when...

 

You also teleport and self regenerate hp worth half a healer while your mech ignores cc mechanics like all other specs... And... The gear is 2-20g vs 300-400g + several hours of dead content dungeons for nightmare runes and Condi clipping and training 3 professions and needing to solo a group bounty no one was interestrf in to get my shortbow and.... Weapon swapping to a mace you get for FREE is.. ... Your biggest deal? (????)

 

That's like telling someone happy to walk in the rain because they at least get to work that you also have a smoothie machine and have to occasionally file taxes. 😂, you guys really have so much for free its kinda getting ridiculous at this point how very easy mode the class is for you guys lmao. XD

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

You do realize the other specs... Have 10 second weapon swaps on rotations as well as stance swaps and that any half decent player can extremely, trivially easily keep a weapon swap right?

 

The "incredible difficulty of finding a second weapon swap"... Is literally the snowcrows rotation that I have to do to drain 75 energy in under 10 seconds or else my ability proc will not provide me with energy on swap unless I am below 10 energy. Otherwise using the ability to provide 50% alacrity will literally cancel out half of the energy you require for a renegade rotation as well as the condi runes which literally only reach the benchmark performances that beat afk mechanists if you use them on cool down every 10 seconds while memorizing a snowcrows energy optimization routine to provide alacrity while reaching 97-100% of the benchmark to tie. You can delay it 2-3 seconds without it, but then at 70-80% ability use, it's no longer beating the afk benchmark without a literal set. Hence your inconvenience to switch stats is literally other people's 10 second dps rotation and you also get your specs weapon for free so you shouldn't complain...

 

Guess how easy it is to get a spec weapon for 30 hp vs find a viper mace for 30g and 500 weaponsmithing to add onto the 500 armorsmithing and 450 huntsman I needed to craft my viper affix and perform stat swaps with a ingredient list of 200 items vs... Using a weapon that literally drops for free when you train the spec and probably has a cheap eod spec collection achieve too.... 

 

Your guys are complaining about applying the effort that other classes do as 10 second rotations like its the greatest effort in your life.. I've already seen 5 mechanists join and offer three spec choices they had the gear for at once. Dps, alac dps, heal alac dps.. And then they kicked the old healer because they had alac heal dps.. You guys literally can consume 90% of raid roles while providing all boons with 1 firebrand and you're complaining you have to occasionally change... Weapons.. and you don't keep +25% movement speed when...

 

You also teleport and self regenerate hp worth half a healer while your mech ignores cc mechanics like all other specs... And... The gear is 2-20g vs 300-400g + several hours of dead content dungeons for nightmare runes and Condi clipping and training 3 professions and needing to solo a group bounty no one was interestrf in to get my shortbow and.... Weapon swapping to a mace you get for FREE is.. ... Your biggest deal? (????)

 

That's like telling someone happy to walk in the rain because they at least get to work that you also have a smoothie machine and have to occasionally file taxes. 😂, you guys really have so much for free its kinda getting ridiculous at this point how very easy mode the class is for you guys lmao. XD

 

I realize LOTS of things but that doesn't change what I said. The issue with mechanist stacking is not related to power rifle mechanist build. 

[GWstinkt.6094]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I realize LOTS of things but that doesn't change what I said. The issue with mechanist stacking is not related to power rifle mechanist build. 

There's a big issue with perception here. Both FB and Mech offer multiple different builds that overall cover a large range of roles in they game. So when you have 3-4 Mechs or FBs in your  group, they are probably not all playing the same build. But together they form a proper group without any additional professions. So from the outside it looks like those specs are just too good and OP when they could easily be replaced with other specs and the group would still function.

Part of the issue is definitely that we just see so many FBs and Mechs, even if they are not on paper super overpowered.

But I do still feel like both of the specs have access to too many tools strengths. I feel like they could both easily access to 1-2 things and still be strong meta specs.

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, GWstinkt.6094 said:

There's a big issue with perception here. Both FB and Mech offer multiple different builds that overall cover a large range of roles in they game. So when you have 3-4 Mechs or FBs in your  group, they are probably not all playing the same build. But together they form a proper group without any additional professions. So from the outside it looks like those specs are just too good and OP when they could easily be replaced with other specs and the group would still function.

Part of the issue is definitely that we just see so many FBs and Mechs, even if they are not on paper super overpowered.

But I do still feel like both of the specs have access to too many tools strengths. I feel like they could both easily access to 1-2 things and still be strong meta specs.

Yes, it's typical that the truth is obscured by perceptions. Yes, people stack mechanists. Those people that stack it intentionally are not playing the power rifle build because that build doesn't offer the features that make mech stacking effective. Seems like a LOT of bad acting going on; people complaining about too much mechanists in a team as a reason to specifically nerf the build that is not the reason for that stacking. 

The are solutions to nerfing mech stacking to get Alacrity and barrier. If Anet acts consistently, we will see a nerf for mechanist. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

maybe a 15k-20k warrior still holding out. 

Tell Soo-Won to stop moving and I'll Decapitate her more.

FWIW, yes harder to pull off rotations, or ones that are riskier or require resource management should indeed be stronger than builds that can AFK and pull +28k dps while pulsing automatic self sustain and boons.

[Tails.9372]

8 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

FWIW, yes harder to pull off rotations, or ones that are riskier or require resource management should indeed be stronger than builds that can AFK and pull +28k dps while pulsing automatic self sustain and boons.

Which for the most part is already the case but sure. If there is a DPS focused build that can't reach 30k even if properly played then it should get buffed appropriately. Also this thread is about Mechanist, not Harbinger.

[Sunchaser.9854]

Yes, power alacity mechanist, is totally not quite comparable. I mean. Other classes have to change talents routinely for encounters for solo vs open world vs boon play.

Mechanist sometimes can need to equip the same weapon or a mace it gets for free or provides alacrity with a rifle anyways by maybe swapping put free laurel /ez fractal bitter frost trinkets. This solves the balance issue of other classes having to fight for roles when mechanist takes 7-9 in a 10 man group.

Because sometimes the mechanist will get lost walking to the raid. Or forget their own 100% alacity +25 might + fury + 38% Protection + stability + barrier + 25k support dps power rifle build For one signer for a grenade. 

https://snowcrows.com/builds/engineer/mechanist/power-alacrity-mechanist

 

This is less to cherry pick but more over some of these 'mythical builds that don't exist but do' are right there...

Does revenant turn into a new class every 10 seconds it has to do a weapon swap on condi to get it's dots and 75 energy used or change a weapon from a shortbow into a axe, mace, or staff, or needs to worry about which stance it needs to use for a fractal? 

Mechanist competes for 90% of roles while 90% of classes compete for 11-33%, that's like the definition of class imbalance is when...

There's less reason to bring all 8 vs stack 8 once for pugs. Whether or not the alacity mechanic likes to use a mace that comes free with their spec or a rifle is pretty much the same for me.

The reason we don't need a separate mace mechanist thread is most people can see the same class as the same thing.

Just like revenant doesn't become a different class every 10 second when it needs to change its weapon every 10 seconds and simultaneously always plan on having 20 energy for 50% alacity when it needs but less than 10 energy to be able to swap optimally...

As well as catalyst pretty much needing to use 4-5 different move sets while exploding into fire when touched for god knows why? 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Sunchaser.9854

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Which for the most part is already the case but sure. If there is a DPS focused build that can't reach 30k even if properly played then it should get buffed appropriately. Also this thread is about Mechanist, not Harbinger.

Pretty sure I didn't reference Harbinger in any way shape or form, but you're right, Harbinger needs nerfs as well.

[Tails.9372]

31 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Pretty sure I didn't reference Harbinger in any way shape or form

You did as what you described "AFK and pull +28k dps while pulsing automatic self sustain and boons" might not be referencing it by name but only Harbinger even remotely fits the bill. Power Alacrity Mechanist is at 25k with full rotation meaning that an "AFK" version of that would be somewhere around 19k.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Tails.9372

[ThunderX.6591]

Sunchaser and Tails and Obtena write nice (long) posts, but.......... you all understand that all this thing started because i simple point out that all LI build are similar, so if one LI build can be AFK, the rest would be able to do that too and the original Lottie sayd was not that, that only Mecha could be AFK and no the other LI build?

The discussion then go on all other tracks now.......... well, some interesting info come out of it at least.

Ah, right, remember Rifle Mecha lost around 2k dps from AARocket change for Robot now, and the dps test on Snowcrow are older (20/07) then the nerfing patch (01/08), so all dps on the site that use AARocket with the robot (or flamethrower) are now around -2k dps.

Edited August 8, 2022 by ThunderX.6591

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

You did as what you described "AFK and pull +28k dps while pulsing automatic self sustain and boons" might not be referencing it by name but only Harbinger even remotely fits the bill. Power Alacrity Mechanist is at 25k with full rotation meaning that an "AFK" version of that would be somewhere around 19k.

K.

[itspomf.9523]

Basically people get upset when something does better than them and various logical fallacies get invoked to protect their feelings.

If something is doing better while playing easier, that doesn't make it bad -- it means everything else has been performing significantly worse by comparison, and we're only now realizing the gulf in potential.

Mind you, this is more like an entire ocean of difference if you haven't purchased End of Dragons (or don't plan to).

Edited August 8, 2022 by itspomf.9523

[Tails.9372]

5 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

you all understand that all this thing started because...

All this started because many people seem to be fundamentally incapable of looking at the bigger picture. People said that the initial changes are responsible for putting the performance of power rifle mechanist "over the edge" which is ofc. complete nonsense as the performance (and "difficulty level" for that matter) was already mostly where it is rn with the main difference now being that the rifle doesn't feel as sluggish to use anymore which appears to be the real reason as for why many people started to use it (like I said: "gun go brrr").

But the best part is still that people completely fail to grasp that the whole thing ultimately ended up being a nerf for the mech and a buff to the player character because for them: "getting the AA damage cut in half + losing access to traits like Big Boomer + only having AAR proc half the time" vs. "mech can now put skills on autocast" somehow translates to: "the mech is now stronger than ever".

Edited August 9, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Polar.8634]

Yes. I cannot hit benchmark levels on any spec, but still like to feel how i improve as long as I use a spec and learn how to use. Also, i want to see more healers viable. But, it's not only complicated or not question here, mech is just op healer together with fb. 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

44 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

Yes. I cannot hit benchmark levels on any spec, but still like to feel how i improve as long as I use a spec and learn how to use. Also, i want to see more healers viable. But, it's not only complicated or not question here, mech is just op healer together with fb. 

 

Saying mech is an OP healer doesnt even make sense when as far as healing goes, you are relying on Medikit and elixir guns, which Scrapper heal also rely on.

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Sunchaser and Tails and Obtena write nice (long) posts, but.......... you all understand that all this thing started because i simple point out that all LI build are similar, so if one LI build can be AFK, the rest would be able to do that too and the original Lottie sayd was not that, that only Mecha could be AFK and no the other LI build?

The discussion then go on all other tracks now.......... well, some interesting info come out of it at least.

Ah, right, remember Rifle Mecha lost around 2k dps from AARocket change for Robot now, and the dps test on Snowcrow are older (20/07) then the nerfing patch (01/08), so all dps on the site that use AARocket with the robot (or flamethrower) are now around -2k dps.

I realize it for sure. You are right ... most LI builds are similar. I've been looking at LI builds since HoT was released so I consider myself well versed and experienced in how they work, what they are capable of doing. Unless you are AFK farming some trash mobs in OW, none of them AFK the team content people are so concerned about them defiling.

The recent objection to power rifle mechanist because they 'afk' content is simply dishonest or at best, an ignorant claim. If they ACTUALLY want to prove that power rifle mechanist is unique in this way to other LI builds, they should tell us what content power rifle mechanist is AFKing in so we can test it and put this question to rest. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[JTGuevara.9018]

Warrior here. You engies need to STOP defending mechanist. It's nonsense and it's destroying the game. Come to the warrior forums. A big number of us just take the p-rhymes-with-hiss out of bladesworn. Y'all can do the same on your side.