Chaos trait line

[Stavros.8249]

I use the chaos trait line primary for condition damage builds, but something is bothering me. I cant choose major adept and Major grandmaster traits.

For major adept i could see the use of method of madness, since it does some condi damage and it is the first tier...

But for major grandmaster trait i was expecting something good for condi. The only think i see is only a cd reduction and traits for boon suport

I think both adept and grandmaster trait should have at least something for condi damage or expertise 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Chaos traitline is not for condition damage builds that is more on Illusion line then it is Chaos. Chaos is a pure defensive traitline which gets associated with condi because it makes condi builds that much bulkier. Most condi builds in competitive play run Chaos as most use staff in association with the build.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Stavros.8249 said:

I use the chaos trait line primary for condition damage builds, but something is bothering me. I cant choose major adept and Major grandmaster traits.

For major adept i could see the use of method of madness, since it does some condi damage and it is the first tier...

But for major grandmaster trait i was expecting something good for condi. The only think i see is only a cd reduction and traits for boon suport

I think both adept and grandmaster trait should have at least something for condi damage or expertise 

Honestly i used to think the same but the best way to view all of the Mesmer traitlines is the elite specialization makes up 80% of your damage. The Core especially the third traitline are just the flavor of your elite specialization.

If you had a pick for pure Condition traits then go Method of Madness and Chaotic Interruption, but I normally do Bountiful Disillusionment purely for the amount of self stability to can pump out.

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Chaos is a pure defensive traitline 

Not really for PVE most condition builds for Mesmer use Chaos traitline purely for the condition damage bonus. https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition-alacrity-mirage (this is primary use case)

Edited August 7, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

26 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Honestly i used to think the same but the best way to view all of the Mesmer traitlines is the elite specialization makes up 80% of your damage. The Core especially the third traitline are just the flavor of your elite specialization.

If you had a pick for pure Condition traits then go Method of Madness and Chaotic Interruption, but I normally do Bountiful Disillusionment purely for the amount of self stability to can pump out.

Not really for PVE most condition builds for Mesmer use Chaos traitline purely for the condition damage bonus. https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition-alacrity-mirage (this is primary use case)

Please read what I had type before you make comments, I said chaos traitline is used in condi builds because of staff and which only staff can really capitalize on it. That build is a double staff build, do you see condi Virtuoso using chaos traitline...?

Edited August 8, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Please read what I had type before you make comments, I said chaos traitline is used in condi builds because of staff and which only staff can really capitalize on it. That build is a double staff build, do you see condi Virtuoso using chaos traitline...?

Only Mirage uses staff all other other condition builds that use Chaos have other weapons so my point holds true. Even with Virtuoso the difference in DPS is 2k from Dueling to Chaos. You also get access to supportive traits with Chaos so it is arguably better in end game content like raids.

I forgot about Illusionary Membrane, the other reason to run Chaos.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Bakeneko.5826]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Only Mirage uses staff all other other condition builds that use Chaos have other weapons so my point holds true. Even with Virtuoso the difference in DPS is 2k from Dueling to Chaos. You also get access to supportive traits with Chaos so it is arguably better in end game content like raids.

I forgot about Illusionary Membrane, the other reason to run Chaos.

Condi virtuso with chaos isn't really meta, it's highly situational.

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Condi virtuso with chaos isn't really meta, it's highly situational.

It is listed on Snowcrow/Metabattle so I guess it has some its uses.

If I was to have a guess, it can get higher DPS in some situations since it doesn't rely on Sword and by extension Fencer's Finesse and Phantasmal Swordsmen. It will also have higher base Condition Duration so I guess its a cheaper to run since you wont need as much food/utility buffs. Best use case is Open World content.

[Stavros.8249]

Axe mirage also use only chaos and it is a pure condi dps build. It's not only for staff. 

[Senqu.8054]

No, Chaos should never have condition damage. It should be based around utility and used regardless of power, condition or support. That Chaos adds condition damage is just because a dev didn’t like axe and wanted to play staff Mirage with alacrity.

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

No, Chaos should never have condition damage. It should be based around utility and used regardless of power, condition or support. That Chaos adds condition damage is just because a dev didn’t like axe and wanted to play staff Mirage with alacrity.

 

thanks

[Salt Mode.3780]

16 hours ago, Stavros.8249 said:

Axe mirage also use only chaos and it is a pure condi dps build. It's not only for staff. 

Again there are no better options besides that, Chaos traitline in its core was suppose to be purely defensive and utility, they didn't add the condition bonus until May 11, 2021 patch which at the same time staff was given alacrity. Both Illusionary Membrane and Chaotic Potency did not give extra condition damage. In fact those were reworked with the update. This only perpetuated the tanky condi mirage builds in competitive play.

Like I said, it was a mistake to give alacrity to mirage in the first place. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[mirage.8046]

essentially, the whole goal of the Chaos spec is for defense and random boons, not just condition damage. there are way more traits that focus on said goal compared to conditions and the like.

[Stavros.8249]

11 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Both Illusionary Membrane and Chaotic Potency did not give extra condition damage.

Also there is chaotic transference and the first trait give regen so all those traits work. It is a condi trait line, maybe not in the past, but it is now. Giving us condi damage and expertise and at least one of the grand master traits should reflect that. 

[phokus.8934]

14 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

essentially, the whole goal of the Chaos spec is for defense and random boons, not just condition damage. there are way more traits that focus on said goal compared to conditions and the like.

Yep, this is what Chaos is.

[Mell.4873]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:12 AM, Senqu.8054 said:

No, Chaos should never have condition damage. It should be based around utility and used regardless of power, condition or support. That Chaos adds condition damage is just because a dev didn’t like axe and wanted to play staff Mirage with alacrity.

 

22 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again there are no better options besides that, Chaos traitline in its core was suppose to be purely defensive and utility, they didn't add the condition bonus until May 11, 2021 patch which at the same time staff was given alacrity. Both Illusionary Membrane and Chaotic Potency did not give extra condition damage. In fact those were reworked with the update. This only perpetuated the tanky condi mirage builds in competitive play.

Like I said, it was a mistake to give alacrity to mirage in the first place. 

I don't think anyone here is arguing choas should have condition damage bonuses.

All anyone is saying it that it does. 

We should be responsing to the auther post about picking traits from the Chaos line.

[Mell.4873]

22 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

essentially, the whole goal of the Chaos spec is for defense and random boons, not just condition damage. there are way more traits that focus on said goal compared to conditions and the like.

It is normally the best (third) trait line to pick for condition damage so it is kind of irrelevant whether it is defensive or not. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't think anyone here is arguing choas should have condition damage bonuses.

All anyone is saying it that it does. 

We should be responsing to the auther post about picking traits from the Chaos line.

I dont think you understand what i said enough to quote, what i said was chaos traitline shouldn't have condition damage bonus in the first place, as it's origin is suppose to be utility/defensive. This was changed due to the balance patch by giving staff alacrity which was a mistake in the first place.

[Mell.4873]

13 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I dont think you understand what i said enough to quote, what i said was chaos traitline shouldn't have condition damage bonus in the first place, as it's origin is suppose to be utility/defensive. This was changed due to the balance patch by giving staff alacrity which was a mistake in the first place.

Okay but the author is asking about what to pick not whether it should exist. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Okay but the author is asking about what to pick not whether it should exist. 

Again read my posts before making comments thanks. I hate to get notification of someone misquoting me or not understanding what I had typed. 

"Chaos traitline is not for condition damage builds that is more on Illusion line then it is Chaos. Chaos is a pure defensive traitline which gets associated with condi because it makes condi builds that much bulkier. Most condi builds in competitive play run Chaos as most use staff in association with the build."

FYI I did answer the post.

I mentioned which is technically better, and I also stated why people would run Chaos for condi builds as it is tied to staff and as far as the axe condi mirage build goes, I have hardly seen anyone run that as Condi Virtuoso outshines that build in almost every case as well as its a much easier rotation. As far as Mesmer top DPS is concern no it does not use chaos, condi Virtuoso does not use chaos as the damage does not outweigh the bleed stacks from dueling for you to proc more resource to shatter.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Mell.4873]

40 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again read my posts before making comments thanks. I hate to get notification of someone misquoting me or not understanding what I had typed. 

"Chaos traitline is not for condition damage builds that is more on Illusion line then it is Chaos. Chaos is a pure defensive traitline which gets associated with condi because it makes condi builds that much bulkier. Most condi builds in competitive play run Chaos as most use staff in association with the build."

FYI I did answer the post.

I mentioned which is technically better, and I also stated why people would run Chaos for condi builds as it is tied to staff and as far as the axe condi mirage build goes, I have hardly seen anyone run that as Condi Virtuoso outshines that build in almost every case as well as its a much easier rotation. As far as Mesmer top DPS is concern no it does not use chaos, condi Virtuoso does not use chaos as the damage does not outweigh the bleed stacks from dueling for you to proc more resource to shatter.

?????? "Chaos traitline is not for condition damage builds that is more on Illusion line then it is Chaos." ?????

 https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition-mirage At the higher 38.5k uses Chaos and not Illusions. Hey my Mirage builds uses Illusions and not Dueling so there is difference.

I mean you corrected it later so its fine man, don't worry about it. I guess I'm adding to fire by responding.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

26 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

?????? "Chaos traitline is not for condition damage builds that is more on Illusion line then it is Chaos." ?????

 https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition-mirage At the higher 38.5k uses Chaos and not Illusions. Hey my Mirage builds uses Illusions and not Dueling so there is difference.

I mean you corrected it later so its fine man, don't worry about it. I guess I'm adding to fire by responding.

Again please read posts carefully before misquoting, your understanding of Mesmer is as messy as you understanding people's posts.

"I mentioned which is technically better, and I also stated why people would run Chaos for condi builds as it is tied to staff and as far as the axe condi mirage build goes, I have hardly seen anyone run that as Condi Virtuoso outshines that build in almost every case as well as its a much easier rotation."

I quoted myself and underlined it for you to read carefully. Unlike you I know what I type and I understand what I typed.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again please read posts carefully before misquoting, your understanding of Mesmer is as messy as you understanding people's posts.

"I mentioned which is technically better, and I also stated why people would run Chaos for condi builds as it is tied to staff and as far as the axe condi mirage build goes, I have hardly seen anyone run that as Condi Virtuoso outshines that build in almost every case as well as its a much easier rotation."

I quoted myself and underlined it for you to read carefully. Unlike you I know what I type and I understand what I typed.

Lol shall we do this all day.

"Condi Virtuoso outshines that build in almost every case as well as its a much easier rotation. As far as Mesmer top DPS is concern no it does not use chaos"

Well it does Chaos Dueling Mirage is Mesmer's highest DPS build. Playing it isn't that hard as well and in certain situations its better since it can cleave with melee/ambush attacks. Another cool thing to note is that Mirage clones don't benefit from Alac or Quickness so it is much better at any solo content compared to Virtuoso.

I guess the main downside is that the skill required to avoid damage is so much higher compared to standing far away.

 

Maybe I will stop here, I don't want posts being flagged. Nice chatting to you 🙂

Edited August 10, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

35 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Lol shall we do this all day.

"Condi Virtuoso outshines that build in almost every case as well as its a much easier rotation. As far as Mesmer top DPS is concern no it does not use chaos"

Well it does Chaos Dueling Mirage is Mesmer's highest DPS build. Playing it isn't that hard as well and in certain situations its better since it can cleave with melee/ambush attacks. Another cool thing to note is that Mirage clones don't benefit from Alac or Quickness so it is much better at any solo content compared to Virtuoso.

I guess the main downside is that skill required to avoid damage is much higher compared to standing far away.

 

Maybe I will stop here, I don't want posts being flagged. Nice chatting to you 🙂

There is far more consistent numbers with Condi Virtuoso then there is Chaos dueling Mirage as Mirage has a higher skill floor then there is for Condi Virtuoso. 

Considering you say that Mirage clones, don't benefit from Alacrity or quickness then do you understand why this is bad? Let me answer that for you, its because their attacks and animation is slower then your own because you have alacrity and quickness meaning its not uncommon for players to fail their clone ambush before shattering them which results in a dps loss where as Virtuoso does not need to worry about this.

As far as solo content goes any build works, you can have a full trailblazer or celestial build and it will work, in fact it will work better then axe mirage build as you have much more survivability. 

The person who made this post suggest that Chaos should have more condi traitlines and I simply pointed out that no Chaos should not have any condi stats to begin with nor should ANET add or buff it anymore. This was a mistake on ANET's part by giving alacrity to Staff mirage. 

The DPS that you see is on a dummy in a perfect scenario if the boss is standing still and you dont need to do anything besides dps and do your rotation which is not the case, but boss mobility does not hinder Virtuoso's dps as they are range which is why I said there are far more consistent numbers with Condi Virtuoso then there is with Dueling Chaos Mirage.

Please be mindful of your posts as there are new players who are seeking answers but are muddled by confusing posts like yours. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Mell.4873]

40 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

 Please be mindful of your posts as there are new players who are seeking answers but are muddled by confusing posts like yours. 

Its good for them to see the back and forwards since we bother bring up valid points I also agree with all your comments on Mirage and everything else.

Mirage is my second favorite specialisation in the whole game. Chrono is first. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Ellon.4316]

This thread is the most confusing ever, sarcasm incoming:

• "Chaos virtuoso is bad because dueling virtuoso does more damage or is the meta"
• "Chaos mirage is bad because it is difficult even though it does more damage then dueling virtuoso"
• Dueling virtuoso is good even though it has a more complex rotation than chaos virtuoso (still not a complex rotation)

So theoretical DPS doesn't matter but difficulty of play matters but only when comparing between chaos mirage and dueling virtuoso, not when comparing chaos virtuoso and dueling virtuoso??? 😕

When it comes to the traitlines for a condi build you shouldn't take chaos because anet decided at some point it should do condi damage (mesmer buffs are somehow bad!?). Instead you should take dueling and take the power traits when running condi virtuoso for optimal damage on your condi build (assuming snowcrows)??? 😕

 

 

Let's be real, chaos virt, dueling virt and chaos mirage are al valid options for condi DPS. Nothing wrong with running a simpler or more difficult build depending on what you're comfortable with. If you are uncomfortable with mechanics/rotations you probably do more DPS with chaos virt then dueling virt anyway just cause it's simpler.

 

 

To get back to OP's original question about grandmaster traits. I don't think it is wise to add another trait for condi damage, condi virt is already doing good damage as it is.

However i think another solution would be to have a grandmaster that helps with getting regeneration, a lot of condi traits in chaos are dependent on this but staff is one of the only viable option to self sustain regen. Would make the condi damage in chaos more reliable without having to depend on supports or take mirage elite spec. It even fits the "boon" part about chaos 😉 .