New Profession Suggestion

[Lily.1935]

On 9/5/2022 at 8:17 AM, Diktator.8927 said:

But elite specs will never provide a truly unique class, rather just a variation of the base profession. To me, they just feel like different builds for the same class, not like separate classes.
 

Guild Wars 2 classes are more varied than they would be in most other games. A lot more varied. Each one has a lot it can do at any given time. They are prestige classes which is a concept we've seen before in other games like Dungeons and Dragons(older editions), Ragnarok Online and Final Fantasy 14 even(Although they've since moved away from this and no longer do things like conjurer into white mage and such).

On 9/5/2022 at 8:17 AM, Diktator.8927 said:

Weaver is just like any other Elementalist, with the same 4 attunements, swapping between them. Yes it does have some different skills, and it doesn't play exactly the same like other Elementalists, but still, it's a variation of the Elementalist, not a completely separate class.

I feel elementalist is the worst example of this since all of the elementalist elite specs have similar play lines while Other elite specs do not. A Mechanist is extremely different from a Scrapper or a Bladesworn is extremely different from a berserker. Necromancer does this the best in my opinion since Each one feels very unique from each other. Sure they use some of the same weapons, but its not like weapons between classes are completely unique from each other. And a lot of unique classes in other games have skills they each share. ESO last I played it had weapon skills which were the same across all classes and FF14 has a few skills which multiple classes have access too.

On 9/5/2022 at 8:17 AM, Diktator.8927 said:

Revenants are the same as well, you have 2 different legends to pick, which give you 5 more preset abilities each, and abilities use up a resource. 
You get the point.

Revenant feels different enough between the 3 elite specs that I run each of them depending on my mood. What really separates the classes is their profession mechanic. So All of their elite specs will need to utilize that mechanic in some way. That might be why you feel they're similar. But again most games don't have these sort of unique mechanics only ONE class has, sometimes they do, but most rely on some sort of universal energy system.

On 9/5/2022 at 8:17 AM, Diktator.8927 said:

So I'm not so sure why this community seems to be so against them adding some brand new professions. If you are not interested in them, they you could just not play them. I get it that Anet have probably decided that they're only gonna release more elite specs, but imo they really should consider making brand new professions as well.

I'm not against them Adding a new profession. In fact, I'd be quite excited for it. However, I also understand that Arena net is a relatively small studio when compared to the other top MMO companies in the market and we have to consider time and resource management when they decide what they'll be adding. And Elite specializations just offer far more than a new profession could at the moment. There is already the foundation for the class there ready to go where as a new class requires a new mechanic and for that mechanic to be changed enough to warrant changes equal to the number of elite specializations the other classes have.

I do want arena net to eventually add a new profession. But not yet. I'd like to see 5 total Elite specializations before they decide to retire adding new elite specs to add an entirely new Profession with its own 5 elite specs. Which they could start it out with 2 and slowly add new ones over living world creating hype. But we're talking about a whole development process to make sure it fits into the meta in some way.

I'm also quite skeptical of a new Profession because of how sloppy the implementation of Revenant was. Revenant is an incomplete Profession. Its about 66% done at the moment and it feels like it. Revenant is the main reason why I'm not a big fan of the idea at this time. And honestly, if it was up to me I'd go back and redesign much of the Revenant to be more in line with their original idea of them being a master of their utility skills and give them more choices, but this isn't about my 8 year long gripe with the revenant...

[Diktator.8927]

1 hour ago, Lily.1935 said:

Guild Wars 2 classes are more varied than they would be in most other games. A lot more varied. Each one has a lot it can do at any given time. They are prestige classes which is a concept we've seen before in other games like Dungeons and Dragons(older editions), Ragnarok Online and Final Fantasy 14 even(Although they've since moved away from this and no longer do things like conjurer into white mage and such).

I'd both agree and disagree. I'd argue DDO and RO had far superior class systems, though I haven't really played them much to give a definite opinion on them. Get ready for an essay, because I really like explaining things that I say.

Let's take an example from an MMORPG I used to play a ton, Allods Online. Many would say it's a WoW clone, so I'm guessing class system worked similar to how it worked in WoW at some point. 
Paladin for example would have different builds, each giving a different playstyle and a lot more variety than I could ever find in GW2. I could be a tank, a physical DPS or a holy DPS / each of those having variations whether it's PvE or PvP. Depending on where I spend my skill points and rubies (passives), I could get 3 totally different playstyles. Similar to some especs in GW2, the mechanics would stay kinda similar, but you would play the class differently. 
Some abilities were just too good not to have in all 3 builds, but you might put more or less points into them, and you wouldn't always spend passives to boost said abilities in each build. Having more than 5(+5) abilities, meant that I could have my basic rotation of 5 or so skills, but I would also have heals/shields, multiple forms of cc, gap closers, etc. to use situationally. I could choose which optional skills to take, but in GW2, it feels like I'm rather limited in my choice (though some classes have access to more abilities, and it's not as limiting as it appears to me). Weapon swapping offers 5 more skills, but I'm locked into presets, rather than being able to use skills from both weapons at the same time.
Allods Online has some of the best classes I've ever played, I genuinely enjoyed playing most of them. Whether it's due to the design of the abilities, the combat, the class theme, or whatever else, it just felt enjoyable. It has a fairly standard class system, it's nothing special, but I still think it's better than GW2. A lot of newer games have, imo, really bad class systems (Lost Ark, BDO, New World), and there seems to be a general trend of making class systems that offer less and less customization. GW2 is superior to those games thankfully, in many ways.

So that's just an example of an average MMORPG class system, from 10+ years ago. I wont even go into the games that have much much better class systems (another that I played a lot at launch was Archeage).

1 hour ago, Lily.1935 said:

I feel elementalist is the worst example of this since all of the elementalist elite specs have similar play lines while Other elite specs do not. A Mechanist is extremely different from a Scrapper or a Bladesworn is extremely different from a berserker. Necromancer does this the best in my opinion since Each one feels very unique from each other. Sure they use some of the same weapons, but its not like weapons between classes are completely unique from each other. And a lot of unique classes in other games have skills they each share. ESO last I played it had weapon skills which were the same across all classes and FF14 has a few skills which multiple classes have access too.

That's a fair point. I enjoyed playing my Scrapper, and it was a totally different feeling compared to playing the base class. Imo it's mainly because I hated the base Engi weapons. I did get kinda tired of it, and right now I'm probably gonna switch to a Holosmith. Again, feels a bit different, and the heat mechanic definitely sets it apart from other especs.
My main issue is with skills being tied to weapons, I have no control over them basically. There's only so many weapons they could add, and I doubt they will revisit those classes that don't have many weapons.
With Engi, I enjoyed Scrapper's Hammer. I dislike every other weapon, Sword is OK, but Holo's Photon Forge is amazing so it makes up for it.
It's even worse considering you can't weapon swap with them. I know kits are there to replace that, but I have no interest in using them at all. They feel unimpactful, and dull (even though builds use them to maximize the dmg output).

1 hour ago, Lily.1935 said:

Revenant feels different enough between the 3 elite specs that I run each of them depending on my mood. What really separates the classes is their profession mechanic. So All of their elite specs will need to utilize that mechanic in some way. That might be why you feel they're similar. But again most games don't have these sort of unique mechanics only ONE class has, sometimes they do, but most rely on some sort of universal energy system.

That might be the case for a lot of games, they just use energy/mana system, without much else. But I feel a lot of games have some differences in the way their class works.
In previously mentioned Allods Online, I think most classes had some sort of a unique mechanic that was either active or passive. Paladins had barriers, when they take damage, they first store that damage in a barrier. You can use different skills to decrease damage in barriers, then just break them or wait for the timer to run out and inflict dmg to yourself. 
Mages had 3 elements, they could stack each element to 5 stacks. Using certain powerful abilities would spend those stacks.
Warriors had some sort of a rage bar or something similar, most MMOs have that anyway.

You get my point. Other MMOs have certain unique mechanics for different classes, even though they rely on energy/mana systems.

I've actually just started playing again after taking a 2 month break. I swapped my Herald to Vindicator, and I'm kind of enjoying it. I also enjoyed my Condi Herald when I first started playing, but got bored of it quickly. Whenever I get tired of something, I try to find a new enjoyable way to play it (if possible). 
I first started off as a Guardian. Enjoyed the base Guardian, but got tired of a Greatsword, so I ended up rolling a Firebrand. Eventually, even though it was enjoyable for a while, I found it to be quite dull. I didn't like the other 2 especs at all, so I leveled a Revenant to 80. So in this case, I couldn't find a new enjoyable way to play the class, meaning I had to switch to a different one. 

I'm still not sure what the underlying issue is, but my guess is again, it has something to do with skills being tied to weapons and the number of weapon skills. In no other game did I get tired of playing a class so quickly. Especially considering I did enjoy the class at first.

1 hour ago, Lily.1935 said:

I'm not against them Adding a new profession. In fact, I'd be quite excited for it. However, I also understand that Arena net is a relatively small studio when compared to the other top MMO companies in the market and we have to consider time and resource management when they decide what they'll be adding. And Elite specializations just offer far more than a new profession could at the moment. There is already the foundation for the class there ready to go where as a new class requires a new mechanic and for that mechanic to be changed enough to warrant changes equal to the number of elite specializations the other classes have.

I do want arena net to eventually add a new profession. But not yet. I'd like to see 5 total Elite specializations before they decide to retire adding new elite specs to add an entirely new Profession with its own 5 elite specs. Which they could start it out with 2 and slowly add new ones over living world creating hype. But we're talking about a whole development process to make sure it fits into the meta in some way.

Quite a lot of people here seem opposed to the idea of adding new professions, for whatever reason. 
I totally understand that issue, it requires manpower, time, and money. Which is also weird, considering GW2 is one of the biggest MMOs around. But hopefully it changes for the better. You'd think with these ridiculous cash shop prices, they would actually earn some money from the game.

New professions would offer totally new and different mechanics that aren't tied to the mechanics of current professions, different themes/class fantasies (key part also).

I'd say Druid is the real standout here in GW2, as it changed the class into a full on nature celestial avatar type of thing, and it's mainly a support/healer. It's different compared to other 2 especs that are pure damage classes who rely on pets in some way. I just wish more especs would transform the classes in that way.

Most classes just add a new way to deal damage, and it's boring. Combine that with the fact that they're aiming for every class to do everything, and it just ruins any sort of class role identity for me. 
In most games, I know that Warriors are melee dps and sometimes tanks. Paladins usually tank, and dps, but in some games they can heal as well (usually one of the more general classes that do everything, just like most classes in GW2). Mages do ranged "magic" dps. Archers/Rangers do ranged/melee physical dps. Rogues/Assassins are usually sneaky melee physical dps classes. 

GW2 actually worked that way with base classes, to an extent. But nowadays, every class can be a dps and a support (an even bigger issue is when the same espec can do that as well). Tanks aren't really a thing sadly, and the way healing works is boring and meh. There isn't enough differentiation between the roles, and that's because there isn't a classic holy trinity system.
I have no problem with them going a bit out of that box, but in GW2 most classes don't have that feeling of a role identity tied to them. Most of them are just "DPS GO BRRRRR", a few of them are a bit more support-ish dps classes (Specters - maybe. Scourge -  possibly. Scrappers are honestly a mix between dps, tank and support, though their weapon skills would suggest they're primarily dps as well - with wells being more support oriented. Same with Chronos. Firebrand and Mechanics are just OP and are able to dish out buffs while doing top tier dps. Though I feel Firebrand should be a primarily support/healer with the way their tomes and other class skills work.  I guess Heralds are more support oriented now?), and Druids feel like the only real full support/heal class that isn't designed to do damage.

I feel like this is a different issue I have with how the game works, but it's still somewhat relevant to this topic.

Sorry for the long post lol
 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Diktator.8927

[Lily.1935]

16 hours ago, Diktator.8927 said:

I'd both agree and disagree. I'd argue DDO and RO had far superior class systems, though I haven't really played them much to give a definite opinion on them. Get ready for an essay, because I really like explaining things that I say.

Let's take an example from an MMORPG I used to play a ton, Allods Online. Many would say it's a WoW clone, so I'm guessing class system worked similar to how it worked in WoW at some point. 
Paladin for example would have different builds, each giving a different playstyle and a lot more variety than I could ever find in GW2. I could be a tank, a physical DPS or a holy DPS / each of those having variations whether it's PvE or PvP. Depending on where I spend my skill points and rubies (passives), I could get 3 totally different playstyles. Similar to some especs in GW2, the mechanics would stay kinda similar, but you would play the class differently. 

Well, even just your direct comparison here with paladin and Guardian. First, I'll say this. Guardian is a hybrid between cleric and paladin. You'll have a lot more fun with it when you think of it more like that. You present 3 builds but guardian currently, if we're just saying each elite spec is a new build, they would have 4. But if we're looking at different builds Guardian has Healbrand, Quickbrand, Condibrand, power Dragon hunter, Condi Willbender, Power Willbender, power Alacrity Willbender, Condi Alacrity willbender, Core Power DPS and we can go further with Celestial open world Roamer, WvW's Boon Support Quickbrand. And that's just guardian. And that's not even all of their builds. You can also run a Ranged Dragon Hunter that traps people and uses stealth to crack through defenses.

Then you have the weapons which are very different from each other. Hammer Willbender is a thing you could run and willbender can also run Sword and board. You could also run full on cleric style of build with Mace+Shield and a staff in the off to support allies. You don't like greatsword? Sword and hammer are both solid options.

I think there is an argument about the utility skills not being all that diverse on Guardian and I think there's a real argument to that. Some are quite situational. And that could be valid criticism.

I wont address everything in the most but just wanted to point this out.

As for the topic at hand, of a new Profession. Again, I'd like them to fill a few more class fantasies that the core classes don't currently fill before looking into a new profession. There are a lot of advantages and disadvantages to adding a new class.

Advantages:

1. MARKETING!: Major advantage, new Professions are shiny and definitely have a broader external appeal to people than an elite specialization which is more of an niche thing within a niche genera.
2. Styles: New visuals, new weapon and armor combinations could be added to the game which give players a nice way to build into a new fantasy.
3. Class Fantasy: More options to find something that fits your idea of X character from whatever media or building your own OC.

Disadvantages:

1. Time: The development process for a new profession could take far longer than an Elite specialization. With an Elite spec the devs can look at what the community is hungry for and build for that while a new profession requires figuring out what fantasies the other professions can't fill, figuring out a mechanic that diversifies them from the others.
2. Investment: There's a change the new profession will not land well with the audience and most players have a main already so you could see a class that is rarely or never played.
3. Workload: If they just added a new profession with an expansion they're also expected to add 9 elite specializations. Lets put this in perspective. if they did it with the next expansion that's a total of One new profession and 14 new elite specializations. That's nearly or more than double their work load.

At the moment I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I'd love the Dervish, Paragon, Monk and Ritualist to make an epic return to Guild wars 2. I'd be hyped for it. Especially for Ritualist and Paragon! But looking at it practically, I'm perfectly content with waiting a few more expansions before a new Profession is added.

[Diktator.8927]

43 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

Well, even just your direct comparison here with paladin and Guardian. First, I'll say this. Guardian is a hybrid between cleric and paladin. You'll have a lot more fun with it when you think of it more like that. You present 3 builds but guardian currently, if we're just saying each elite spec is a new build, they would have 4. But if we're looking at different builds Guardian has Healbrand, Quickbrand, Condibrand, power Dragon hunter, Condi Willbender, Power Willbender, power Alacrity Willbender, Condi Alacrity willbender, Core Power DPS and we can go further with Celestial open world Roamer, WvW's Boon Support Quickbrand. And that's just guardian. And that's not even all of their builds. You can also run a Ranged Dragon Hunter that traps people and uses stealth to crack through defenses.

Then you have the weapons which are very different from each other. Hammer Willbender is a thing you could run and willbender can also run Sword and board. You could also run full on cleric style of build with Mace+Shield and a staff in the off to support allies. You don't like greatsword? Sword and hammer are both solid options.

I think there is an argument about the utility skills not being all that diverse on Guardian and I think there's a real argument to that. Some are quite situational. And that could be valid criticism.

Oh, absolutely. It would appear as if GW2 has more builds per class, and that's true. But I don't think there's much of a difference between say, a Power Willbender and a Power Alacrity Willbender. Or between Condi Willbender and Condi Alacrity Willbender. Those are just slight variations. They mostly use the same weapons/skills, so there's virtually no difference in that regard. They would probably pick a few different traits, and use a different gearset, but other than that, it's very-very-very similar.
In my example, you had 3 distinct playstyles. A tank, a holy dps (focuses on DoTs, AoE, medium range, and overall holy looking spells), a physical dps (more focused on single target, close range, and mostly physical dps looking abilities). I'm sure even there you could make some variations.

The builds themselves, and their names on sites like metabattle, don't really paint a real picture. Just for the Firebrand you have 3 builds that are virtually the same in terms of gameplay, "Firebrand - Condi DPS", "Firebrand - Quickness Support Condi DPS", "Firebrand - Quickness Support Celestial DPS". They use mostly the same skills.

Another problem I have with weapons, is that most of them aren't viable, or they just feel clunky and unimpactful to use. I thought Mace Guardian was okay, but it's not focused on damage, and it often feels impactless. Most shields can also feel like a complete waste of a weapon slot.

Overall, if we could actually choose our weapon abilities like we do with utility skills, I wouldn't have an issue with that. But right now, weapons just act as presets, and certain weapons just aren't meant to fulfill a certain role. You just end up going with the same 2 weapons for power dmg build, and same one or 2 weapons for a condi build. There's little variety there.
If we had a more robust passive tree, where a lot of passives could directly impact our weapon abilities, and give them different effects, it would be an amazing system. Something like what Virtue spec's "Glacial Heart" does for Guardian's Hammer 2. It changes the ability slightly, and gives it some additional effects. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Diktator.8927

[Lily.1935]

4 minutes ago, Diktator.8927 said:

Oh, absolutely. It would appear as if GW2 has more builds per class, and that's true. But I don't think there's much of a difference between say, a Power Willbender and a Power Alacrity Willbender. Or between Condi Willbender and Condi Alacrity Willbender. Those are just slight variations. They mostly use the same weapons/skills, so there's virtually no difference in that regard. They would probably pick a few different traits, and use a different gearset, but other than that, it's very-very-very similar.
In my example, you had 3 distinct playstyles. A tank, a holy dps (focuses on DoTs, AoE, medium range, and overall holy looking spells), a physical dps (more focused on single target, close range, and mostly physical dps looking abilities). I'm sure even there you could make some variations.

The builds themselves, and their names on sites like metabattle, don't really paint a real picture. Just for the Firebrand you have 3 builds that are virtually the same in terms of gameplay, "Firebrand - Condi DPS", "Firebrand - Quickness Support Condi DPS", "Firebrand - Quickness Support Celestial DPS". They use mostly the same skills.

Another problem I have with weapons, is that most of them aren't viable, or they just feel clunky and unimpactful to use. I thought Mace Guardian was okay, but it's not focused on damage, and it often feels impactless. Most shields can also feel like a complete waste of a weapon slot.

Overall, if we could actually choose our weapon abilities like we do with utility skills, I wouldn't have an issue with that. But right now, weapons just act as presets, and certain weapons just aren't meant to fulfill a certain role. You just end up going with the same 2 weapons for power dmg build, and same one or 2 weapons for a condi build. There's little variety there.
If we had a more robust passive tree, where a lot of passives could directly impact our weapon abilities, and give them different effects, it would be an amazing system. Something like what Virtue "Glacial Heart" does for Guardian's Hammer 2. It changes the ability slightly, and gives it some additional effects. 

Condibrand and Healbrand are very different. Both use Axe, typically(Although you could swap axe with mace and be just fine) but their weapons other than that couldn't be more different. Condibrand uses scepter+torch and Axe+torch. Healbrand uses Axe(but you can use mace)+Shield and Staff. And the only Utility skill they share between them is the heal. And condibrand and healbrand couldn't be more different when it comes to armor either. Condibrand being full Viper's and Healbrand being full Harriers. You miss out on a bit of fury with mace, but you could use sword and get most of that back.

Do note that when something calls itself Condi, it refers to DoT damage. And quite a few DoT builds feel quite different to each other. Guardian can tank, and often does. They are often the healer. They're often power DPS or condi DPS. They also fill that Boon support role. Tank, Healer and DPS are not the only roles in GW2. We also have Boon support which is often hybridized with one of the other 3 roles.

Guild Wars 2 is weird in a lot of ways. I fully understand your criticism for weapons and honestly, I can't deny that. Its a valid complaint. I would love more options for weapon skills as well. But This is sort of outside of GW2's current design. I do think More traits could change weapon skills more and more radically like Glacial heart or Lingering curse does. I'm not against that idea at all. I'm all in favor of it.

[Zunki.3916]

If they introduce new professions instead of new elites with expansions that might be the point where I leave the game behind (unless this happens like 2-3 more expansions down the line 🙂 )

[soul.9651]

A new shapeshifter spec in the next expansion would be something interesting (like druid from wow)

Edited September 9, 2022 by soul.9651

[prototypedragon.1406]

A class that can control the battle field without having to rely on boons to be decent and can charge through enemy lines grappling enemies and using them as their weapons dealing no damage to those grappled but do confusion strikes against the foes allies for a set duration of 25 seconds while taking 70 percent reduced damage while pulsing resoultion and gaining a breakbar. If the breakbar is broken the class is stunned and drops the carried foes.

[VocalThought.9835]

On 9/5/2022 at 8:17 AM, Diktator.8927 said:

But elite specs will never provide a truly unique class, rather just a variation of the base profession. To me, they just feel like different builds for the same class, not like separate classes.
Weaver is just like any other Elementalist, with the same 4 attunements, swapping between them. Yes it does have some different skills, and it doesn't play exactly the same like other Elementalists, but still, it's a variation of the Elementalist, not a completely separate class.
Revenants are the same as well, you have 2 different legends to pick, which give you 5 more preset abilities each, and abilities use up a resource. 
You get the point.

So I'm not so sure why this community seems to be so against them adding some brand new professions. If you are not interested in them, they you could just not play them. I get it that Anet have probably decided that they're only gonna release more elite specs, but imo they really should consider making brand new professions as well.

I disagree. I think the 9 professions are perfect for this game. Adding more professions to this game would not work simply due to the lack of creative space they have with the system that they are working in. This includes the professional mechanics, class theme, armor classes, health level, and the trait lines. If they added a new profession it would have to fill a void and I don't see one. All the suggestions given looks like it would fit with an existing profession. 

 

I really don't get your point of the "new elite specs feeling the same as core". I beg to differ.  They're similar, but different.  What makes professions feel even more different are the professional mechanics. I think they came up with as many variations of mechanics with just enough space to add room for elite specs. Heck they're even slightly sharing prof. mech. among professions.  

 

To me, it seems they came up with a solid system. 3 armor class that varies amongst 3 ranges of health pools, where each class has a different playstyle mechanic that compliments a traditional class trope or archetype. Within these professions you can build a subclass that fits thematically using 3 of 5 specializations with 3 traits to choose, or you can add an elite specializations, adding a new spoke to this umbrella for a subclass which slightly alters the playstyle. What's amazing is, without the expansions, I can build 4 solid classic class tropes with just the core traits for each profession, where each one is drastically different than the other.

 

I think we would have to break this system in order to create a new profession. So instead of thinking we need a new profession, think of how you can make your ideal character in the game that's created or, if they added a new profession, how could they with thi system?

Edited September 15, 2022 by VocalThought.9835
Grammar

[Diktator.8927]

7 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

I disagree. I think the 9 professions are perfect for this game. Adding more professions to this game would not work simply due to the lack of creative space they have with the system that they are working in. This includes the professional mechanics, class theme, armor classes, health level, and the trait lines. If they added a new profession it would have to fill a void and I don't see one. All the suggestions given looks like it would fit with an existing profession. 

 

I really don't get your point of the "new elite specs feeling the same as core". I beg to differ.  They're similar, but different.  What makes professions feel even more different are the professional mechanics. I think they came up with as many variations of mechanics with just enough space to add room for elite specs. Heck they're even slightly sharing prof. mech. among professions.  

 

To me, it seems they came up with a solid system. 3 armor class that varies amongst 3 ranges of health pools, where each class has a different playstyle mechanic that compliments a traditional class trope or archetype. Within these professions you can build a subclass that fits thematically using 3 of 5 specializations with 3 traits to choose, or you can add an elite specializations, adding a new spoke to this umbrella for a subclass which slightly alters the playstyle. What's amazing is, without the expansions, I can build 4 solid classic class tropes with just the core traits for each profession, where each one is drastically different than the other.

 

I think we would have to break this system in order to create a new profession. So instead of thinking we need a new profession, think of how you can make your ideal character in the game that's created or, if they added a new profession, how could they with thi system?

Okay, please tell me which profession would then make a Holy warrior (a Paladin sort of class). Guardian tries to be that, but it's just a fire bot. Bunch of blue abilities that focus on burning. So it doesn't fit.
What about a Holy Priest/Cleric type of class. Being the ranged version of the holy warrior pretty much.
What about a warlock/witch/occultism type of class? Necro isn't that, Spectre tries to be it.

I've explained why elite specs are pretty much variations of core specs. The core mechanics stay the same, even if you introduce some new mechanics.
Examples: Guardians apply burning on F1, heal on F2, def. boon on F3 between all 3 especs. Blue class.
Engineers utilize toolbelt skills that vary depending on utility skills you pick. 
Necro actually changes a bit with Scourge, dismissing the shroud mechanic. Green class.
Mesmers rely on summoning clones, with Virtuoso instead changing clones for Blades, but it works similarly. F1 power dmg, F2 condi, F3 cc, F4 defensive tool, across all 3 especs. Purple/Pink class.
I've explained Revenants and Elementalists already.
Warriors, build up a bar to unleash a powerful skill, they vary between especs, but the core is the same, with Bladesworn being the most different.

For me they would have to have different core mechanics, and different theme and identity (both visual and in terms of gameplay, and role) to be considered "brand new, separate classes". If you wanted to introduce a Paladin like class, you would need to create a brand new profession, or completely change Guardian's abilities and weapon abilities when that espec is selected, different mechanics would also be nice - compared to having F1-F3 abilities doing the same thing on all other specs. One requires making a new profession, the other requires changing a lot more stuff.
What about a Bard-like class? That focuses on instruments to deal damage and buff/heal allies? You would need a completely new profession.

Instead what they do is introduce one new weapon that may fit the espec, and that's it. If you choose a core weapon, you're playing the same class, with different flavors. So no. They wouldn't need to break the system to create a new profession. They would need to break the system in order to create a truly unique class (espec) within the existing professions.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Diktator.8927

[VocalThought.9835]

3 hours ago, Diktator.8927 said:

Okay, please tell me which profession would then make a Holy warrior (a Paladin sort of class). Guardian tries to be that, but it's just a fire bot. Bunch of blue abilities that focus on burning. So it doesn't fit.
What about a Holy Priest/Cleric type of class. Being the ranged version of the holy warrior pretty much.
What about a warlock/witch/occultism type of class? Necro isn't that, Spectre tries to be it.

I've explained why elite specs are pretty much variations of core specs. The core mechanics stay the same, even if you introduce some new mechanics.
Examples: Guardians apply burning on F1, heal on F2, def. boon on F3 between all 3 especs. Blue class.
Engineers utilize toolbelt skills that vary depending on utility skills you pick. 
Necro actually changes a bit with Scourge, dismissing the shroud mechanic. Green class.
Mesmers rely on summoning clones, with Virtuoso instead changing clones for Blades, but it works similarly. F1 power dmg, F2 condi, F3 cc, F4 defensive tool, across all 3 especs. Purple/Pink class.
I've explained Revenants and Elementalists already.
Warriors, build up a bar to unleash a powerful skill, they vary between especs, but the core is the same, with Bladesworn being the most different.

For me they would have to have different core mechanics, and different theme and identity (both visual and in terms of gameplay, and role) to be considered "brand new, separate classes". If you wanted to introduce a Paladin like class, you would need to create a brand new profession, or completely change Guardian's abilities and weapon abilities when that espec is selected, different mechanics would also be nice - compared to having F1-F3 abilities doing the same thing on all other specs. One requires making a new profession, the other requires changing a lot more stuff.
What about a Bard-like class? That focuses on instruments to deal damage and buff/heal allies? You would need a completely new profession.

Instead what they do is introduce one new weapon that may fit the espec, and that's it. If you choose a core weapon, you're playing the same class, with different flavors. So no. They wouldn't need to break the system to create a new profession. They would need to break the system in order to create a truly unique class (espec) within the existing professions.

I feel core Guardian fits Holy Warrior and Cleric well and Core Necromancer fits the Occultist/Warlock as well. So the question is what are you looking for, since clearly me and the Devs agree? What abilities or mechanics are missing? Everything, including color schemes are traditional to the themes. What does a Paladin, in your mind does that Guardian isn't doing in doing in this game?

I feel they already covered Bards with the Mesmer. Are their musical notes flying over the screen? No, but the essence is there with Mantra Skills. Saying a phrase or singing a song are both incantation, causing an effect. It's all the samething to me. I don't need to see an instrument. Plus they have instrument weapon skins if you want to use them.

 

I've been RPGs for years. From table tops to video games. I can tell ya, the essence is there. It's also fits in well with their lore. Everything that's not there can easily be implied with an elite specialization. 

 

I'd ask that you clearly explain what you think is missing, because I don't see what you're talking about.  We'll go back and forth forever with our opinions without further clarification.

 

[VocalThought.9835]

3 hours ago, Diktator.8927 said:

Okay, please tell me which profession would then make a Holy warrior (a Paladin sort of class). Guardian tries to be that, but it's just a fire bot. Bunch of blue abilities that focus on burning. So it doesn't fit.
What about a Holy Priest/Cleric type of class. Being the ranged version of the holy warrior pretty much.
What about a warlock/witch/occultism type of class? Necro isn't that, Spectre tries to be it.

I've explained why elite specs are pretty much variations of core specs. The core mechanics stay the same, even if you introduce some new mechanics.
Examples: Guardians apply burning on F1, heal on F2, def. boon on F3 between all 3 especs. Blue class.
Engineers utilize toolbelt skills that vary depending on utility skills you pick. 
Necro actually changes a bit with Scourge, dismissing the shroud mechanic. Green class.
Mesmers rely on summoning clones, with Virtuoso instead changing clones for Blades, but it works similarly. F1 power dmg, F2 condi, F3 cc, F4 defensive tool, across all 3 especs. Purple/Pink class.
I've explained Revenants and Elementalists already.
Warriors, build up a bar to unleash a powerful skill, they vary between especs, but the core is the same, with Bladesworn being the most different.

For me they would have to have different core mechanics, and different theme and identity (both visual and in terms of gameplay, and role) to be considered "brand new, separate classes". If you wanted to introduce a Paladin like class, you would need to create a brand new profession, or completely change Guardian's abilities and weapon abilities when that espec is selected, different mechanics would also be nice - compared to having F1-F3 abilities doing the same thing on all other specs. One requires making a new profession, the other requires changing a lot more stuff.
What about a Bard-like class? That focuses on instruments to deal damage and buff/heal allies? You would need a completely new profession.

Instead what they do is introduce one new weapon that may fit the espec, and that's it. If you choose a core weapon, you're playing the same class, with different flavors. So no. They wouldn't need to break the system to create a new profession. They would need to break the system in order to create a truly unique class (espec) within the existing professions.

I feel core Guardian fits Holy Warrior and Cleric well and Core Necromancer fits the Occultist/Warlock as well. So the question is what are you looking for, since clearly me and the Devs agree? What abilities or mechanics are missing? Everything, including color schemes are traditional to the themes. What does a Paladin, in your mind does that Guardian isn't doing in doing in this game?

I feel they already covered Bards with the Mesmer. Are their musical notes flying over the screen? No, but the essence is there with Mantra Skills. Saying a phrase or singing a song are both incantation, causing an effect. It's all the samething to me. I don't need to see an instrument. Plus they have instrument weapon skins if you want to use them.

 

I've been RPGs for years. From table tops to video games. I can tell ya, the essence is there. It's also fits in well with their lore. Everything that's not there can easily be implied with an elite specialization. 

 

I'd ask that you clearly explain what you think is missing, because I don't see what you're talking about.  We'll go back and forth forever with our opinions without further clarification.

 

[Diktator.8927]

1 hour ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

I feel core Guardian fits Holy Warrior and Cleric well and Core Necromancer fits the Occultist/Warlock as well. So the question is what are you looking for, since clearly me and the Devs agree? What abilities or mechanics are missing? Everything, including color schemes are traditional to the themes. What does a Paladin, in your mind does that Guardian isn't doing in doing in this game?

I feel they already covered Bards with the Mesmer. Are their musical notes flying over the screen? No, but the essence is there with Mantra Skills. Saying a phrase or singing a song are both incantation, causing an effect. It's all the samething to me. I don't need to see an instrument. Plus they have instrument weapon skins if you want to use them.

 

I've been RPGs for years. From table tops to video games. I can tell ya, the essence is there. It's also fits in well with their lore. Everything that's not there can easily be implied with an elite specialization. 

 

I'd ask that you clearly explain what you think is missing, because I don't see what you're talking about.  We'll go back and forth forever with our opinions without further clarification.

 

Well if you think those classes fit the current professions/elite specs, then idk if there's a point in arguing about this at all. We must have a very different pair of eyes.
How do the devs agree with you btw? 

So a traditional Paladin/Holy Warrior color scheme and overall look and feel of the class is light blue? You know, I always thought it was yellow-ish, focusing on light/holy magic, shields/barriers, etc. Sure it can have some fire added to it as well.  The closest the Guardian gets to it is if he gets a light aura on him. Everything else is just a bunch of blue flames. Hell, my Holosmith feels more like a Holy Warrior than Guardian does.
The whole class focuses on proccing burning to do damage in some way, shape, or form. So having enitrely different mechanics contributes greatly to the feeling of using a different class. Firebrand actually gets a bit closer with tome skills, having a lot of AoE buffs, etc.

I never knew Necro focused on dark and shadow magic, occultism and witchcraft. As I see it, it's main focuses are minions aka summoning, plagues and corruption. It focuses on death, and resurrecting dead. It's a Necromancer, as it says, not a Warlock. When you think of Necromancers, plagues, corruption, poison, etc. you think of a green color. When it comes to warlocks, in other games it's usually darker colors, often including purple. Just the color of abilities can change the way you perceive your class, as well as what the abilities themselves do. Specter (with a scepter, and especially the Shroud) is a lot closer to a Warlock than a Necromancer is in this game, so I could give it a pass as a Warlock. But Necromancer just isn't it.

Bards just don't exist in any shape or form in this game. Yeah sure, Mantras are something that you could attribute to them, but Mesmers just aren't bards in any shape or form. Just because professions have one certain feature that you could associate to a certain class, doesn't mean they're fully that class. Mesmers are primarily illusionists, and the whole class reflects that.

What do I think is missing? I mean, I could write an essay, but I'd rather not. I've explained pretty clearly what I think of GW2's classes and the class system in my previous posts. Elite specs at the moment simply don't cover the entire class fantasies/identities, rather they just provide certain bits from them. In the end you get the core class mixed in with a different class fantasy, but almost never get the entirely new class with its whole brand new fantasy/identity. I'd say Druids and Specters get the closest to actually feeling like entirely different classes, that have almost entirely different fantasy/identity compared to the core class.
 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Diktator.8927

[Merisee.9035]

I may be wrong and I'm not an expert, but it feels like you're basing your ideas of classes from warcraft, which isn't bad in itself but different games and all. There is not hard rule saying a light wielding character has to use yellow or white for colouration and Holy fire has always been a staple of holy characters such as paladin and clerics. The only difference here I see is colour

As for necros? again purple. warlock warcraft. Even there the class uses minions. But its affliction spec is about dots and cursing people which in this game is conditions. But in dnd and forgive me if I'm wrong warlocks aren't all about shadow. hopefully someone with more experience there can shed light on that area

What I'm seeing is that you're arguing over colours not a reason to actually have a new class in game or not to. The problem with adding a new class apart from the work for the devs and yes it would be a lot. 
But the main thing to consider is that many classes that people would want? like a monk? could be made into elite specs.  A monk could be an unarmed guardian, From what  I've seen the willbender's utilities skills lean that way already. A bard could come from  mesmer with the performance and illusions.

now as I said I'm not expert on this game, I've played for a while but at the same time I'm super casual. I know there are issues with this game like every other game. Adding another class would pile more problems onto a balance side of things which is pretty hard to keep in check as it is. Looking at you Mechanist

[Diktator.8927]

8 minutes ago, Delinquee.4513 said:

I may be wrong and I'm not an expert, but it feels like you're basing your ideas of classes from warcraft, which isn't bad in itself but different games and all. There is not hard rule saying a light wielding character has to use yellow or white for colouration and Holy fire has always been a staple of holy characters such as paladin and clerics. The only difference here I see is colour

As for necros? again purple. warlock warcraft. Even there the class uses minions. But its affliction spec is about dots and cursing people which in this game is conditions. But in dnd and forgive me if I'm wrong warlocks aren't all about shadow. hopefully someone with more experience there can shed light on that area

What I'm seeing is that you're arguing over colours not a reason to actually have a new class in game or not to. The problem with adding a new class apart from the work for the devs and yes it would be a lot. 
But the main thing to consider is that many classes that people would want? like a monk? could be made into elite specs.  A monk could be an unarmed guardian, From what  I've seen the willbender's utilities skills lean that way already. A bard could come from  mesmer with the performance and illusions.

now as I said I'm not expert on this game, I've played for a while but at the same time I'm super casual. I know there are issues with this game like every other game. Adding another class would pile more problems onto a balance side of things which is pretty hard to keep in check as it is. Looking at you Mechanist

Funny enough I haven't played WoW past level 10 or so, never really got into the game.
I'm talking about colors mainly because it's a big part of a class identity and fantasy. When you think of "Holy" magic and "Holy" looking abilities, you don't associate blue with it. We attribute colors to everything, each color can represent and invoke a certain emotion. 
And if you had read my previous replies, you'd see what my argument was. It's only now that I went more in-depth in another aspect of that, which are the colors. Colors contribute to the overall theme and feeling of the class.  

Again, you "could" try to make completely brand new, separate class identities/fantasies within the elite specs, but they will always feel like base class mixed in with that new class. Not only because of the colors used, but because you'd use base class weapons with their base class abilities. You'd use some base class utility/healing abilities as well, and the base class mechanics will often stay almost the same.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Diktator.8927

[DeanBB.4268]

What is "Holy" in guild wars? There are 5 races with 5 "religious" views. How does a "Holy Warrior" fit into that? 

And colors of all things to get hung up on? Really? Anet chose color schemes for each profession, and made a lot of choices, to be different than the norm. Have you noticed we don't have dwarves and elves? Anet's race choices.

Guardian is Anet's answer to a "holy warrior" profession. Likewise, elite specs are Anet's chosen method of expanding the professions. If you want to recommend changes, I suggest you work within the framework Anet has laid out.

[Merisee.9035]

Thing is colours mean different things to different people. So, to get what is seen as right isn't always going to be right for others. Let's look at necro which is green. Green can be the colour of infections at least in name such as gangrene and mould can be green, but so is nature and life. You're never going to get a group to agree where the colour belongs. And what class fits it. I get that people tie colours to everything at least those that can see colours, but No one will get everyone to agree which fits which. Even a fire mage your gonna have people arguing over should it be yellow? red? orange? So, to me saying that colour is thematically tied to a class is wrong.

But the original post was about adding a new class and to add a new class we have to look at what does this class do that the others can't. Does it add anything that an elite spec wouldn't?  Then you need to look at the question does this fit within the setting of the world that has been made, those are questions that need looking at before any new class could be slotted into the game. Adding classes that don't fit the setting might sound fun? but in the end you ruin the game in the long run


 

[VocalThought.9835]

38 minutes ago, Diktator.8927 said:

Well if you think those classes fit the current professions/elite specs, then idk if there's a point in arguing about this at all. We must have a very different pair of eyes.
How do the devs agree with you btw? 

So a traditional Paladin/Holy Warrior color scheme and overall look and feel of the class is light blue? You know, I always thought it was yellow-ish, focusing on light/holy magic, shields/barriers, etc. Sure it can have some fire added to it as well.  The closest the Guardian gets to it is if he gets a light aura on him. Everything else is just a bunch of blue flames. Hell, my Holosmith feels more like a Holy Warrior than Guardian does.
The whole class focuses on proccing burning to do damage in some way, shape, or form. So having enitrely different mechanics contributes greatly to the feeling of using a different class. Firebrand actually gets a bit closer with tome skills, having a lot of AoE buffs, etc.

I never knew Necro focused on dark and shadow magic, occultism and witchcraft. As I see it, it's main focuses are minions aka summoning, plagues and corruption. It focuses on death, and resurrecting dead. It's a Necromancer, as it says, not a Warlock. When you think of Necromancers, plagues, corruption, poison, etc. you think of a green color. When it comes to warlocks, in other games it's usually darker colors, often including purple. Just the color of abilities can change the way you perceive your class, as well as what the abilities themselves do. Specter (with a scepter) is a lot closer to a Warlock than a Necromancer is in this game, so I could give it a pass as a Warlock. But Necromancer just isn't it.

Bards just don't exist in any shape or form in this game. Yeah sure, Mantras are something that you could attribute to them, but Mesmers just aren't bards in any shape or form. Just because professions have one certain feature that you could associate to a certain class, doesn't mean they're fully that class. Mesmers are primarily illusionists, and the whole class reflects that.

What do I think is missing? I mean, I could write an essay, but I'd rather not. I've explained pretty clearly what I think of GW2's classes and the class system in my previous posts. Elite specs at the moment simply don't cover the entire class fantasies/identities, rather they just provide certain bits from them. In the end you get the core class mixed in with a different class fantasy, but almost never get the entirely new class with its whole brand new fantasy/identity. I'd say Druids and Specters get the closest to actually feeling like entirely different classes, that have almost entirely different fantasy/identity compared to the core class.
 

It sounds like you're main issue is Color Schemes.  You want Guardians to have more of a yellowish skill effect than blue and Necromancers to have a purplish skill effect than green? Okay... if that's what looking for. I thought there was some mechanics missing, but you just want the skills to have a different color. 

 

I can agree that the Necromancer Profession should have a name change, but whether it's called Necro or Warlock, it's the same thing. It an Occult class at heart. I guess you'd also rather see skeletons or goblins instead of bone minions. 

 

I agree that Mesmers are illusionist, but they also offer more than just illusions. Those other things they do fit quite well with what a Bard can do and if there are things that you could describe that's missing, I'm sure it'll easily fit within a elite spec. They could have a Mesmer elite specialization where instead of creating a clone, you create a musical note instead that flys over to an enemy and causes damage, confusion, dazed them, or distorts thier attacks from hitting you. 

 

You're right that they don't cover an entirety of any classic class trope. They touch on multiple ones in one profession. Each profession is an umbrella of a core theme. Each specialization (core and elite) in the game could be a class in it self, but creating a separate class would just be too redundant, which is what they do in other games, and why I love gw2. 

 

Since you being more descriptive with what's missing to you would be too much like a thesis, how about trying to create a build that reflects what you're looking for, then tell me what's missing? I understand it might not seem meta or viable to you, but try it out and see how it feels to play. Maybe that would help you be more direct and concise about what your looking for, other than cosmetics.

[Diktator.8927]

2 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

What is "Holy" in guild wars? There are 5 races with 5 "religious" views. How does a "Holy Warrior" fit into that? 

And colors of all things to get hung up on? Really? Anet chose color schemes for each profession, and made a lot of choices, to be different than the norm. Have you noticed we don't have dwarves and elves? Anet's race choices.

Guardian is Anet's answer to a "holy warrior" profession. Likewise, elite specs are Anet's chosen method of expanding the professions. If you want to recommend changes, I suggest you work within the framework Anet has laid out.

What is holy in any other game? Usually the opposite of evil and darkness. You know I'm not talking specifically about religion, but about the class feel, and visuals, which other games seem to have done fairly well. If you really feel that way about the word "holy", maybe a better description would be a Warrior of Light? Again, closest to that sort of class is actually Holosmith, if we go by the visuals.

I'm not the one getting hung up on that. Instead, it seems like a lot of you are, since you are flocking to this thread and focusing only on that part. Again, visuals are a huge part of the class, don't try to dismiss it.

That last sentence basically reads as, "Do as ANET likes or shut up". Weird. Why not change up things a bit? After all, it's a discussion, there's 99% chance Anet wont even see this, let alone try to implement it.

If you don't like this discussion, then I suggest you don't participate in it. 🙂 

 

2 minutes ago, Delinquee.4513 said:

Thing is colours mean different things to different people. So, to get what is seen as right isn't always going to be right for others. Let's look at necro which is green. Green can be the colour of infections at least in name such as gangrene and mould can be green, but so is nature and life. You're never going to get a group to agree where the colour belongs. And what class fits it. I get that people tie colours to everything at least those that can see colours, but No one will get everyone to agree which fits which. Even a fire mage your gonna have people arguing over should it be yellow? red? orange? So, to me saying that colour is thematically tied to a class is wrong.

But the original post was about adding a new class and to add a new class we have to look at what does this class do that the others can't. Does it add anything that an elite spec wouldn't?  Then you need to look at the question does this fit within the setting of the world that has been made, those are questions that need looking at before any new class could be slotted into the game. Adding classes that don't fit the setting might sound fun? but in the end you ruin the game in the long run


 

Well yes, and Ranger also is connected to the nature, and has yellow-ish/green-ish color visuals as well. With some classes it's more rigid than others. Fire mage could honestly use the colors of fire, but depending on the actual class fantasy/lore, it could use flames of any color...as long as you can visually tell they're flames.
I really don't see how a warrior of light could have purple visuals, for example. 

Yeah, the thread has derailed from the original post. If we were to look at how the classes would fit in the existing lore, then it's just unnecessarily limiting. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

It sounds like you're main issue is Color Schemes.  You want Guardians to have more of a yellowish skill effect than blue and Necromancers to have a purplish skill effect than green? Okay... if that's what looking for. I thought there was some mechanics missing, but you just want the skills to have a different color. 

No it doesn't sound like that, and it isn't my main point. I don't want Guardians to have yellowish skill effects and Necros to have purplish skill effects. I have specifically explained this over and over, but you just refuse to read and acknowledge my point.

4 minutes ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

You're right that they don't cover an entirety of any classic class trope. They touch on multiple ones in one profession. Each profession is an umbrella of a core theme. Each specialization (core and elite) in the game could be a class in it self, but creating a separate class would just be too redundant, which is what they do in other games, and why I love gw2. 

Glad we can agree on something at least. The difference is, I dislike it, and you seem to like it. 
I really like having separate classes with separate themes, visuals, mechanics. Though a class system like Archeage's was also amazing, as you could create a lot of unique class fantasies/identities yourself.
Even Rift, which similarly has 3 talent trees (or whatever they're called) for a class (which can be comparable to 3 specs you pick on a class in GW2, except they are much more in depth and offer much more customization), has one of the best class systems around.

I kind of agree on you that they could make Mesmers into bards. My points still stand though, it's just gonna be a mix of Mesmer and Bard, rather than a fully fleshed out, completely unique Bard class.

 

I'm honestly done explaining myself over and over again, as it's going nowhere.

 

[voltaicbore.8012]

12 minutes ago, Diktator.8927 said:

I'm honestly done explaining myself over and over again, as it's going nowhere.

Good. You've "explained" nothing other than your desire to import common themes outside of GW2 into GW2. Seems a lot of us disagree, and it's not because you haven't explained yourself clearly.

As for the original concept in this thread, I'm pretty ambivalent to a new profession. I think our current 9 are enough, but I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a 10th. It's not like the current 9 are barely getting balanced, and a 10th would push ANet over the limit. If balance is already borked in all the game modes, I don't see any need for alarm about adding a 10th unbalanced class.

I think an unarmed/fist class would be cool, but I'd warn against imagining that GW2 can make it look and feel anything remotely close to BDO. BDO is a terrible game in many respects, but I still think mystic is one of the best animated classes in all of gaming, and it just feels so good to play. I haven't tried it after the recent updates that ppl keep complaining broke mystic, but eh. I just know it's not likely to be replicated in any meaningful degree in GW2.

Edited September 15, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Diktator.8927]

11 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Good. You've "explained" nothing other than your desire to import common themes outside of GW2 into GW2. Seems a lot of us disagree, and it's not because you haven't explained yourself clearly.

As for the original concept in this thread, I'm pretty ambivalent to a new profession. I think our current 9 are enough, but I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a 10th. It's not like the current 9 are barely getting balanced, and a 10th would push ANet over the limit. If balance is already borked in all the game modes, I don't see any need for alarm about adding a 10th unbalanced class.

I think an unarmed/fist class would be cool, but I'd warn against imagining that GW2 can make it look and feel anything remotely close to BDO. BDO is a terrible game in many respects, but I still think mystic is one of the best animated classes in all of gaming, and it just feels so good to play. I haven't tried it after the recent updates that ppl keep complaining broke mystic, but eh. I just know it's not likely to be replicated in any meaningful degree in GW2.

No, I have explained it. And yes those are common themes from other MMORPGs, as is the OPs class suggestion. I see nothing wrong with it. I have also explained why I dislike the class system, and your abilities being tied to weapons - and why those things are kinda limiting.
Disagreeing with importing them into GW2 is one thing, but trying to argue those already exist in this game is another. 

 

And to answer the OP, honestly I can't see how a weaponless class would work in a game which ties your abilities to different weapons. 

[VocalThought.9835]

6 minutes ago, Diktator.8927 said:

No, I have explained it. And yes those are common themes from other MMORPGs, as is the OPs class suggestion. I see nothing wrong with it. I have also explained why I dislike the class system, and your abilities being tied to weapons - and why those things are kinda limiting.
Disagreeing with importing them into GW2 is one thing, but trying to argue those already exist in this game is another. 

 

And to answer the OP, honestly I can't see how a weaponless class would work in a game which ties your abilities to different weapons. 

I was looking at other video rpg. BDO is simply just more visually stimulating, but I could easily lump them into GW2 currently profession system. Archeage is more like GW1 and actually does less with more classes, where GW2 does more with less. ESO does less then GW2 but, I think, captures the look and feel you are looking for. 

 

I been playing RPGs (tabletop and video games) for years, so I'm not basing the game off of other video games that came before it. I'm simply thinking of the classic trope, from movies and books, and putting in perspective of it's own lore. I think they did a phenomenal job creating the class system they have. I'm not going to say I'm not open to any changes. I'm just willing to work within the box, before trying to work outside of it.

 

I think every fantasy archetype can fit within these 9 themed professions. Does adding a 10th really serve a purpose? Can we really not see which of the 9 it's close to? It's so different it needs it's own box? Are there any other classes out there that would fit in it's box or is it an outlier? What Specializations would it have? What Elite Specializations would it have? 

 

Right now we have a solid 9. High health to low health. High armor to low armor. From Might to Magic. From Natural to Technological. From Worldly to Otherworldly.  They cover the spectrum imo. 

[Diktator.8927]

47 minutes ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

I was looking at other video rpg. BDO is simply just more visually stimulating, but I could easily lump them into GW2 currently profession system. Archeage is more like GW1 and actually does less with more classes, where GW2 does more with less. ESO does less then GW2 but, I think, captures the look and feel you are looking for. 

 

I been playing RPGs (tabletop and video games) for years, so I'm not basing the game off of other video games that came before it. I'm simply thinking of the classic trope, from movies and books, and putting in perspective of it's own lore. I think they did a phenomenal job creating the class system they have. I'm not going to say I'm not open to any changes. I'm just willing to work within the box, before trying to work outside of it.

 

I think every fantasy archetype can fit within these 9 themed professions. Does adding a 10th really serve a purpose? Can we really not see which of the 9 it's close to? It's so different it needs it's own box? Are there any other classes out there that would fit in it's box or is it an outlier? What Specializations would it have? What Elite Specializations would it have? 

 

Right now we have a solid 9. High health to low health. High armor to low armor. From Might to Magic. From Natural to Technological. From Worldly to Otherworldly.  They cover the spectrum imo. 

BDO, and honestly a lot of action-combat MMOs, usually come nowhere close to having as much customization and uniqueness about their class systems as tab-target games do. AA doesn't really have "more" classes, rather it allows you to combine different skill trees and make your own class. Majority of the influence comes from one tree, a bit less from the other tree, and the least from the 3rd tree (though you could distribute skill points equally between the 3, it wouldn't be great though). ESO is great, the only reason I'm not playing it over GW2, is because of its terrible combat. The class system in ESO is alright, nothing special, not great, not terrible.

Listen, sure, elite specs could fill different class ideas instead of new professions, to an extent. But they would need to be at least on the level of Druid and Specter when it comes to how much they alter the class visuals, feel, role, identity, fantasy, gameplay, etc. Harbinger is just a variation of Necro, Reaper is a melee variation of Necro, Chrono is a variation of Mesmer, Virtuoso is a variation of Mesmer, etc. Specter feels like a somewhat unique class, taking the shroud mechanic from Necro, and using it to get that Warlock feel when combined with scepter.
Druid transforms the class in a way, especially when you use a Staff. It's not just a boring dps with a pet. Compare that to the other 2 especs that feel very similar, and you see how different the Druid actually is. 

So if they were ever to create a true Paladin class, or a Bard, a Priest/Cleric, or whatever other class that exists in other games, it would need to be on that level, otherwise they simply wont feel like brand new classes.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Diktator.8927

[VocalThought.9835]

Let me play into the whole idea of adding more classes. I'd say we should start off with either adding a new armor class or adding a new health level, so either we creating 3 new classes per health bar or 3 classes per armor type. 

 

Let's go with armor type. This new armor class will be Unarmored and all they can wear is Outfits. No, that wouldn't do. Okay, how about we start with health pools and we add a new medium health to Heavy Armored we add a new High health to medium armored and we add a medium health to light armored. Yeah... that'll work.

 

Okay, let's now come up with the theme for the class. We'll create the Paladin for Heavy Armored, the Monk for Medium Armored, and the Bard for Light Armored. 

 

What's the Professional Mechanics and Specializations for these? The Paladin have the color of White light, and his mechanics will be he'll have something like adrenaline where it builds up when you attack get triggered when you press F1 -F5. Based on your race, it trigger something correlated to a racial skill. It's Specializations will be Prayers, Convictions, Tenets, Faith, Dogma, the Elite would be Cleric, Cavalier, Crusader

 

For the Monk will have a tan color, they have an profession mechanics where they randomly changes fighting Stances and if you press the F1 on a particular stance, it stays in that stance for a brief moment, but then rotates between the other two until the skill select come off cooldown.  The Stances alternate from Tai'chi, to Shaolin, to Pacifist. Their Specializations are Counseling, Deep Thoughts, Close Quaters, Pilgrimage, and Higher Purpose. Their Elites are Healer, Teacher, and Vagabond.

 

The Bard will have have a black color effect and a professional mechanic that's like metronome, and F1-F5 are different notes. The different Grandmaster traits unlock different songs you know, so if you play a song correctly it causes different conditions on foes or buff on allies. The Specializations are Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone, and Bass. The Elite would be Poet, Mime, and Conductor.

 

I think this is what everyone would be looking for.

[Diktator.8927]

8 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

Let me play into the whole idea of adding more classes. I'd say we should start off with either adding a new armor class or adding a new health level, so either we creating 3 new classes per health bar or 3 classes per armor type. 

 

Let's go with armor type. This new armor class will be Unarmored and all they can wear is Outfits. No, that wouldn't do. Okay, how about we start with health pools and we add a new medium health to Heavy Armored we add a new High health to medium armored and we add a medium health to light armored. Yeah... that'll work.

 

Okay, let's now come up with the theme for the class. We'll create the Paladin for Heavy Armored, the Monk for Medium Armored, and the Bard for Light Armored. 

 

What's the Professional Mechanics and Specializations for these? The Paladin have the color of White light, and his mechanics will be he'll have something like adrenaline where it builds up when you attack get triggered when you press F1 -F5. Based on your race, it trigger something correlated to a racial skill. It's Specializations will be Prayers, Convictions, Tenets, Faith, Dogma, the Elite would be Cleric, Cavalier, Crusader

 

For the Monk will have a tan color, they have an profession mechanics where they randomly changes fighting Stances and if you press the F1 on a particular stance, it stays in that stance for a brief moment, but then rotates between the other two until the skill select come off cooldown.  The Stances alternate from Tai'chi, to Shaolin, to Pacifist. Their Specializations are Counseling, Deep Thoughts, Close Quaters, Pilgrimage, and Higher Purpose. Their Elites are Healer, Teacher, and Vagabond.

 

The Bard will have have a black color effect and a professional mechanic that's like metronome, and F1-F5 are different notes. The different Grandmaster traits unlock different songs you know, so if you play a song correctly it causes different conditions on foes or buff on allies. The Specializations are Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone, and Bass. The Elite would be Poet, Mime, and Conductor.

 

I think this is what everyone would be looking for.

I just don't understand the obsession with " 3 new classes per health bar or 3 classes per armor type". Just put it anywhere honestly, it doesn't matter that much. It doesn't matter if you have the same "Health level" as another class of the same armor type.

But yeah, your suggestions are perfectly applicable to the game, and I don't see why they couldn't do something like that, at some point. I'm not even saying they need to add all the elite specs at once, or even all professions at once. 
This way you have 3 brand new unique classes, which can have their own separate especs that differ from one another. 

The reason why I didn't go in depth about theorycrafting new possible classes and their especs, is because I was stuck arguing about whether these already exist in game, or the difference between introducing them into the game as especs vs new professions. In my opinion, those classes would be completely different if introduced as new professions, rather than just especs. 

This way, Bard as a whole is focused around music, notes, chords, etc. You could have different especs, focusing on different parts of the musical theme, rather than just having one espec from a completely unrelated profession doing it all (which ends up in doing none of it to the fullest). 

With Paladin, you could have a more healing oriented spec (like Druid), a more durable, support-like spec, and a full on dps spec. Though I'm unsure if that aligns with anet's current vision of everyone doing everything.

 

The only issue that rarely anyone brings up, is time and money required to develop those. For a game as big as GW2, you'd think they'd have a massive team behind it, yet they don't. So right now we can only dream about something like this happening.