Bring back the Pve Reaper

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

That's it in a nutshell, we don't support well because we have very little CC anymore, we don't tank well because we have lost a lot of lifeforce regeneration capabilities, very little movement ability, in fact quite slow, now we have less dps than most builds by a long shot. They didn't know what to do with us so they just neutered all positive skills that gave the Reaper it's identity. We have no place at all, with the exception of farming goods as a bot, who's fault is that? Bring the Reaper back to what it was when it dropped and at least allow us to regain the role of selfish DPS so it is worthwhile and fun to play again.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Vlad Morbius.1759

[Lily.1935]

I've done a lot of testing with reaper over the years and what holds reaper back is the fact certain buffs are locked to either in or out of shroud. That isn't inherently an issue, but it would mean that shroud damage would need to be exponentially stronger than it is now. Currently your DPS in shroud is something like 30% higher(I don't remember the exact numbers off hand) I want to say. Its actually comparable to other power DPS specs. The issue is that out of shroud is much lower when compared to other specs which makes it fairly weak over all.

The easiest way to fix this is to give Reaper another modifier. Something like a Fragility trait in Spite would do the trick pretty effectively. There are always more interesting changes that could be made. I talk about it in detail Here.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

I've done a lot of testing with reaper over the years and what holds reaper back is the fact certain buffs are locked to either in or out of shroud. That isn't inherently an issue, but it would mean that shroud damage would need to be exponentially stronger than it is now. Currently your DPS in shroud is something like 30% higher(I don't remember the exact numbers off hand) I want to say. Its actually comparable to other power DPS specs. The issue is that out of shroud is much lower when compared to other specs which makes it fairly weak over all.

The easiest way to fix this is to give Reaper another modifier. Something like a Fragility trait in Spite would do the trick pretty effectively. There are always more interesting changes that could be made. I talk about it in detail Here.

This dual-mode is one of the numerous design problems that contribute to PUG teaming dilemma with Reaper. While the details of your thread are plausible, I'm still left wondering why in light of the fact that there is an intrinsic sustain benefit to the spec, how a continued campaign for more DPS can be accommodated. It's the same as the Vindicator problem; we can't ignore this significant sustain attached to the spec that handcuffs it. We can't consider adding DPS to the Reaper without looking at it for everything it has to offer, even if those things aren't valuable in certain game situations. 

I think the reality is that if Reaper gets anything, whatever that is, it's going to have a price to pay to get it. 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This dual-mode is one of the numerous design problems that contribute to PUG teaming dilemma with Reaper. While the details of your thread are plausible, I'm still left wondering why in light of the fact that there is an intrinsic sustain benefit to the spec, how a continued campaign for more DPS can be accommodated. It's the same as the Vindicator problem; we can't ignore this significant sustain attached to the spec that handcuffs it. We can't consider adding DPS to the Reaper without looking at it for everything it has to offer, even if those things aren't valuable in certain game situations. 

I think the reality is that if Reaper gets anything, whatever that is, it's going to have a price to pay to get it. 

 

I understand the meaning , with that 2x huge hp pool , it's true that reaper is bifiii as hell , but for pve the trade off is already there : most off your damage is in shroud as said up , taking damage reduce drastically your shroud uptime , as actin as a second healthbar , in some encounters (like vale guardian) it is a serious handicap , reaper need access to fury self uptime ( or a number x again : proc fury on allies when you critically hit , gain +xx ferocity under fury , it's lame cause it's like ele engi and mesmer one , but it is effeicient ) , reaper is a dps , it should deal damage , mech pew pew is a dps too , it has lil support to the group , and it is overly played so i think just bumping up some stats would be sufficient for reaper.

[Raizel.8175]

On 10/27/2022 at 2:14 AM, Frayze.4620 said:

Mechanist now , after nerfs, is a fairly low tier power dps class and yet remains popular because it is very easy to get good results on. That result, on power rifle, is damage. The perceptio is that it has this insane, crazy dps that, exist not actually true anymore, still means it will get a spot.

This is fundamentally wrong. Rifle Mechanist is still one of the strongest DPS builds in actual encounters due to how it works. Even the balancing team acknowledged that you can't purely balance around theoretical Golem benchmarks. Rifle Mechanist still dominates low and mid tier players and only falls off in high tier gameplay.

On 10/27/2022 at 2:14 AM, Frayze.4620 said:

Reaper has never been and nor was it ever “advertised” to us by Anet as being anything but a hard hitting damage dealer. The undeniable truth is that right now it does not do that. And that is, importantly, also the perception of reaper. That it can’t do damage and it didn’t offer anything else either.

On that, I can agree. Due to the drawbacks of Reaper (esp. being forced to play Melee - Necro pDPS ranged weapons are a joke - and how life force works - esp. taking in considerations the nerfs to Reaper Shroud), Reaper should bench far higher than Rifle Mechanist. Reaper should probably at least do around 37k.

[Raizel.8175]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:25 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

People here want reaper to do "competitive" damage output despite him having around 30k effective hp when traited as glass canon (so without any investment in defense) and it would be simply unfair to the other various glass canon that would need heavy investment to match that mount of sustain.

That's nonsense and you probably know that it's nonsense too. In instanced PvE (especially in raids and strike missions), Shroud is far more of a hindrance than a benefit. Due to continuous incoming damage, your life force management may become a mess - especially during certain encounters. Healing in Shroud is also a "problem" (affecting Scholar bonus), to put it lightly. Thanks to the last few balance patches, Reaper even struggles with Crit Chance and is forced to use Thief Runes.

BTW: Especially cDPS builds can reach high HP numbers by using Ritualist gear at the cost of a small DPS loss. High HP really shouldn't be a deciding factor in a builds damage potential.

On 10/23/2022 at 8:25 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Objectively, the necromancer is far from being the worst when it come to traits and specs. Where the necromancer lack is mainly in weapon design (especially the off hand weapons). Unfortunately, It is also lacking in it's general design in many way as the devs made the choice to make him favor debilitating conditions over boon sharing (leading to the creation of the overly bloated harbinger and reduced value of the profession as a whole for PvE end game), condition transfert over condition cleanse and "tanking with health points" over "avoiding hits" (making any necromancer spec bad at properly "tanking" for a team).

Objectively speaking, at least concerning instanced PvE, Necromancer is easily one of the worst classes in the game. The general design is a joke at this point.

• Reaper is the only truly viable pDPS build Necromancer has and it's botched by several factors - one of the main problems (as you've already said) being the lack of decent weapons beside Greatsword. Necromancer literally has no decent pDPS weapons to begin with. Axe is not fully garbage, but the off-hands are all crap. Core Necromancer and Reaper both need a rework here alongside Necromancer weapons - Greatsword is pretty much fine apart from how Gravedigger works.
• Scourge is a mess at this point. The utility as rezz bot is only really nice for low tier gameplay squads; Scourge is and probably can never be a true healer though. Other than that, it's a somewhat situational, rather lower tier DPS that's being kept afloat thanks to the changes to Torment. Its saving grace is that it's rather easy to play and quite consistent - much like Rifle Mechanist just less reliable and, well... weaker. Scourge could probably use a rework. At this point, they could just steal the "sands of time" theme from Prince of Persia and enable Scourge to be either played as cDPS or condition-focused Alacrity Support.
• Harbinger is just a big fail. It's fun to play, but very, very restrictive due to how it works. While Blight is a somewhat interesting mechanic, having to juggle two diminishing resources with a rather strict rotation for proper DPS doesn't work that well in more mechanic-focused encounters. The overloaded elixirs and how Quickness works on Harbinger is also a mess and means that you can't use skills reactively, meaning you're only a 2nd rate support to begin with.

On 10/24/2022 at 11:32 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Removing the LF shield, making it easier to manage shroud skills at the cost of survivability which would offer some leeway for an increase in damage output (It would make people happy when it come to damage output but unhappy when it come to survivability)

I'd actually be happy if they would just do it like that. If you had the choice to trait it to work like Harbinger Shroud for additional DPS, it would be great and would satisfy both sides - even though I don't really see how removing the life force shield would lead to reduced survivability.

On 10/24/2022 at 11:32 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Replacing blind by effects that properly negate incoming hits and effects in PvE, making the reaper able to properly "tank" for the party. (Reaper have been facing this wall since HoT, designed to be resilient but unable to perform in the tank role due to being unable to properly "fix" the boss throught the various mechanic. Honestly it probably wouldn't even be enough to claim the tank spot nowadays but that's the developpement that fit reaper the most)

That's unreasonable. For instanced PvE, I'd rather take Combo fields over damage mitigation. Reaper will never be a decent tank due to its competitors - simply because Reaper inherently lacks role compression.

 

On 10/24/2022 at 11:32 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Having reaper offer party support on top of it's damage output. (Probably the one thing that would make it a valuable enough asset to be offered a spot in a meta group as "support" mean sharing either alacrity or quickness. Keep in mind that there is no such thing as a valuable selfish dps in the current game, you need to be either a healer or a tank/dps with some amount of valuable support output. Because it's better to 2 sources of alac/quick at 50% output with no investment in boon duration than a single source with 100% output but heavy investment in boon duration)

Reaper as support won't ever happen. Quickness is already covered by Harbinger and Alacrity is more suitable for Scourge. Reaper is already quite nice to have as CC bot (although what multiple Reaper/Necromancer skills do can also be done by using a Thiefs Basilisk Venom once...).

You're wrong about "valuable selfish dps" though. Selfish DPS was always valuable due to role compression. Especially "Because it's better to 2 sources of alac/quick at 50% output with no investment in boon duration than a single source with 100% output but heavy investment in boon duration" is a nonsensesical argument. Instanced PvE doesn't work that way; in fact: it never did. What could be improved/changed though are Shouts (you could change some into more supportive shouts like AoE stunbreak) and core Necromancer utilities.

[Obtena.7952]

I hope lots of the people here are listening to the Balance Philosophy livestream but if you missed it ... check the sticky post. It's very timely to the discussion being had here (It would have also been timely 9 years ago but ... water under the bridge I guess). Lots of the ideas they are talking about explain why Reaper is designed like it is and why it's unlikely to get things like ... 30% more DPS just to compete in a PUG team. 

For me the big take away is that if Reaper design is inline with their design philosophy, it's related to filling it's 'power budget'. Also, more subtly ... Anet acknowledging there are 'wrong' builds, which does not dismiss the idea that Reaper being desirable in a team setting maybe not be a target for Anet's balancing efforts.

Another good quote: While not every build needs to perfectly fit into a role .... yup ... in otherwords, Reaper does NOT need to perfectly fit into the optimal DPS role for a PUG team. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Freedoms.2635]

I think for Reaper they should have alot of Stab access or pulse it in shroud in a away, increase there Chill durations so they can provide a Steady Drain on break bars, and in wvw Chill duration would help more. aswell as alot of leech in my opinion. although they dont provide the best support they are "Slow moving Chopping machines" the Chill would help keep there targets closer, the leech because they will not be able to exit group fights nearly as easily ( im excluding teleports because that is a preset up situation) 

and Stab because if there slow and not very mobile at least they can put up the fight for longer vs you pull are target to you and instantly get cc'd any they just run away again.  for the PVE side of things chill would also give you more damage window's if traited. 

 

if you compare reaper to say something like a Celestial Willbender where there a jack of all trades and do alot of things great. 

reaper needs to have that feel of once i have you your mine! sorta feel. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Freedoms.2635

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Time to bring back Mysticism and more of Dervish original essence and put it in Reaper.

 

Avatars of the Gods. 

Vow of Silence.

Reap Impurities.

 

Honestly, I don't know where people got the idea that ANet doesn't want to make Reaper "necessarily" a group asset; and not every class or Elite Spec has to be.

Then what the heck are we all doing here then?

Shall we just declare Reaper a lost cause and move on to other classes, whilst Reaper rots in the bookshelf; along with Warriors and Mirage?

I have watched the Livestream and didn't seem to me at all that's what the devs meant.

 

Using a livestream and twist the dev's words as means to try convey here that they wont put Reaper as it originally was, or improve it in any way, shape, or form, to be a fun and viable class to play, just shows the level of desperation to keep this ES in the poor state it's in.

 

Why not just admit that "I hate Reaper" and be done with it instead of finding any excuse, and pretext under the sun to reinforce a mere oppinion; and a false one at that, that Reaper is in a good state and doesn't need improvements!?

 

Here's a little fun fact: 

Reaper needs improvement. 

 

Here's another:

Players should be able to grab any class and ES they want and do any content.

That's what a game is supposed to do.

 

Saying Reaper is ready and able for end game content is the same as saying that Mirage is good for WvW and Silverwastes.

That would be a terrible joke or a big lie at best.

 

Here's yet another fun fact:

Balance means precisely that every class should do any content equally. 

 

If I can go to Silverwastes, Bitterfrost, Dragonfall, Drizzlewood, or EoD and destroy creatures in mere seconds with Guardians and Revs, why can't I with a Reaper, staff Ele, or a Mirage?

 

 

See, there's no balance that way.

Why have a million builds when only 2 or 3 are viable? 

Why have so many useless skills?

Why place dodges that don't really dodge anything?

Why name and give a mode to a class that's meant to be precisely death and destruction, and then nerf it to oblivion, and finally want to keep it that way, because "not every class needs to do every content" ?

 

Doesn't sound right or just,  to me or any other player that thinks logically or coherently. 

 

As I said on previous post.

I want balance.

I wanna be able to pick any class and ES, and do any content I want without going to deep into the build as to why isn't working well in certain areas.

Mirage has a terrible dodge, period.

No matter what build you slam in it, it still is going to have that horrible dodge.

The solution here is to improve the dodge significantly. Not try to find ways around it.

The solution is to tackle the problem directly, not patch it or conceal it.

Same with Reaper.

No matter what build you slam in it, it needs its DPS back, and its Shroud improved.

Edited October 29, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[zeyeti.8347]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Another good quote: While not every build needs to perfectly fit into a role .... yup ... in otherwords, Reaper does NOT need to perfectly fit into the optimal DPS role for a PUG team. 

Every build ! a build is not a class nor a e-spec , ofc minstrel reaper has no room in a raid/endgame content , but i think that what we can ask is at least 1,2 ,3  build efficient for a certain content per class , and a class should at least have that for each content (not viable -> efficient ) , i dont see reaper fitting into raids , nor wvw (maybe roaming , while you have harbringer ...) nor pvp (again , you have harbringer).

Edited October 29, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[zeyeti.8347]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:25 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

That's cosmetic. Objectively any player that have played GW2 a bit know this much. The value of having an heavy armor over a light armor is null.

Sustain philosophy. 11k hp classes are mainly about avoidance/block while 19k hp classes are about "tanking the hit" (Yes warrior have a lot of avoidance but that's just because tanking hits just didn't work as a design in the early years of the game). All in all, the devs wanted a wide variety of possibility when they designed the game (some things ended up working better than other based on each "era"). Believe it or not there are advantages in having 11k hp instead of 19k hp as, for example, it is easier to bring back a 11k hp character to above 90% health than a 19k hp one. (again, that's comon knowledge for anyone that's played GW2 a bit.)

Objectively, the necromancer is far from being the worst when it come to traits and specs. Where the necromancer lack is mainly in weapon design (especially the off hand weapons). Unfortunately, It is also lacking in it's general design in many way as the devs made the choice to make him favor debilitating conditions over boon sharing (leading to the creation of the overly bloated harbinger and reduced value of the profession as a whole for PvE end game), condition transfert over condition cleanse and "tanking with health points" over "avoiding hits" (making any necromancer spec bad at properly "tanking" for a team).

It is ok but one have to accept that it need drawback for the advantages it offer which is why the thread is going on forever as people just don't want to acknowledge that it does have an advantage in survivability over a 11k hp glass canon and thus deserve to be lacking in damage compared to said 11k hp glass canon.

People here want reaper to do "competitive" damage output despite him having around 30k effective hp when traited as glass canon (so without any investment in defense) and it would be simply unfair to the other various glass canon that would need heavy investment to match that mount of sustain.

Furthermore, game history already proved that whether reaper have competitive damage output or not, it isn't enough to make him popular/"meta". The spec was dishing out 36-37k dps for a long time yet wasn't even glanced at by the "metaboys". Which mean that contrary to belief, more dps won't make reaper "popular". All it can do is make open worlders "happy" and other professions' mains "angry".

Sorry missed the post .

 

In term of armor is more or less 300 thougness difference from ligth vs heavy (thats about 10 -15 % damage less taken from power)

thats not just comsetic ...

Sustain philosophy , ... that was true 10 years ago , when ele could do it's damage from a 1200 range , now look hammer ... you are melee ... and 10 years ago the only class who could 'heal' where guardian and ele , that was the trade off for being the only healers ... not true today ... 

As for reaper his trade off comes also from his high survivability , you really dont want to take damage when you are in shroud , thats why he wasnt taken from "metaboys" , and have to say it's also because his two other specs are really strong.

[AlopiasGW.1932]

This is overall a really good threat and this at least should draw an eye form the develpers. From I all I read and based on my personal exprience and opinion the main issue with Reaper is the dual purpose of its shroud. Considering the stream yesterday they need to apply the "purity of purpose" approach. Either it is a damage buff or it is protection/sustain. The double functionality really messes up the class. My preference is make it a damage buff similar to Harbinger and buff the greatsword

- more damage in Autoattack

- more shroud generation

- more reliabel pull (CC)

 

However, the most important thing is that ANET makes up their mind regarding the Reaper Shroud. This is screwing up any attempt of fair and good balancing for the Reaper players 

 

[Frayze.4620]

On 10/28/2022 at 3:43 PM, Raizel.8175 said:

This is fundamentally wrong. Rifle Mechanist is still one of the strongest DPS builds in actual encounters due to how it works. Even the balancing team acknowledged that you can't purely balance around theoretical Golem benchmarks. Rifle Mechanist still dominates low and mid tier players and only falls off in high tier gameplay.

On that, I can agree. Due to the drawbacks of Reaper (esp. being forced to play Melee - Necro pDPS ranged weapons are a joke - and how life force works - esp. taking in considerations the nerfs to Reaper Shroud), Reaper should bench far higher than Rifle Mechanist. Reaper should probably at least do around 37k.

You are absolutely correct and I should have been more precise when making my post. I was referring to static golem numbers which, as we should all know, are not an indication of in game performance. Thank you for correcting this for me.